Seminarysnoozer

The answer Elder Packer provides is in response to why we need a body now, in mortality, which is a great answer. I agree it adds to our experience. It seems a lot of members don't think the body adds anything, just filters or reduces or distorts the experience.

The reason you speculate the way you do - the body conforming to the spirit, etc. and the reason I present examples demonstrating the relevance of the body to the soul is in direct relation to the basic belief about what a body adds to the dual being status required to be Celestial. In other words, if one believes the body adds very little to that dual being status, the description is always that the body is simply a covering that does whatever the spirit wants, both in this life and the next. The other view, which again I am trying to understand better is to say that there is actually a contribution made by having a body to one's soul, there is something there that the spirit alone cannot do for itself or by itself so that the union of the two is greater than the one alone. If one takes that view, that the body is adding to the status of a being and brings about a change in their character or in the very nature of the person then one would hunt and ponder about what exactly is the body contributing to the soul. So, this is why I present the examples I present and this is why you keep falling back to suggesting the body is not doing much but conformation to the spirit. That may be the case and I haven't closed my mind to that possibility but it seems that we go to great lengths to obtain a body and even those that will not be involved in procreation in the next life are magnified and glorified by their body. How and why that is, to me, is of importance. I realize that information may not be available but I don't think that is reason to assume the body contributes hardly anything more than a conduit like holding a telephone in the hand. The body adds glory to the soul and becomes part of the soul, the very essence of the being, not just the communication or interface device. Don't you think so? Lets just ponder one possible benefit the physical body could provide. Knowing that we have a hard time distinguishing which aspect of our self is really our self between the features of the physical body and those of the spirit, we therefore can say that features of the body are taken as if they are our own. For example, if a person has an aptitude to play basketball, is that because of their spiritual based skills, their physical attributes or their social surroundings. I would say it is probably all three. One who thinks the body provides nothing would say that that it is only the spirit and maybe the social surroundings that provide the skill to play basketball, ignoring any genetically determined, physical attributes. But the person who develops such attributes describes their self that way, "I am a basketball player". If any of their "basketball player" status is derived from their physical attributes then they are not entirely correct in saying that that is who they are as it is just a temporary stewardship here in this life and they would not treat such a skill as a gift giving praise to Him that provided it as they would say it is just self. Now, if the skill to play basketball is, even in the least bit, assisted by physical attributes then imagine how much of that could be passed on upon receiving such a body. In the next life, as we enter into a Kingdom, upon resurrection we receive a fullness of that Kingdom. Just like if I were to get Mia Hamm's body, I would still have to practice and become familiar with the skill to use it but the potential is there which may be different than my current body (even though I played pretty good soccer back in the day). What if we were to get Einstein's brain or have the wiring of Benjamin Franklin etc. Better yet, what if we were to have the body God has, the brain's mapping and wiring that God has. What exactly would be passed on with such a brain. Could we obtain all that He has, in terms of experience, knowledge, understanding and in that way receive all that came before us as if it was our own? Would that not be a way to be eternally connected to everything in the past as if it was our own? I don't know if that is how things work of course but I wouldn't shut off the idea just because you think the body provides hardly anything to the personality of the being. One of the main purposes of this life is to receive a body, not this one, but a resurrected one of glory, either a Celestial one, a Terrestrial one or a Telestial one. That seems pretty important to me, and that is why I keep giving examples of its relative importance. Christ, through the power of God was able to give back to Lazarus the set of brain contained experiences that he had prior to his death but recreate them from scratch without Lazarus having to re-live the life to form the connections in the brain.

Unless one understands that "psychology" is related to the chemistry and hard-wiring of the brain, the neuronal connections etc. If one becomes disinhibited by the destruction of the anterior temporal lobes, for example such as with Kluver-Bucy syndrome and then has no "shame" expressing inappropriate sexual drive in public, nothing "psychological" happened, it was all physical. People that have Down's syndrome are not moral free agents and therefore cannot sin, not because of a "psychological" problem but a physical one. There have been pathways mapped to the brain regarding desire for power and control over others. Everyone here has already agreed to follow Christ. The test is not one of whether a person wants to be like God or to follow Christ, the test is to what degree one would follow Christ. Would one follow Christ even though the body is weak and pulls us away from that pathway? Would one follow Christ even though there is immediate carnal pleasure that comes from certain acts that go against His plan? The test we face here is not a mental one, it is a test of character. Like a soldier who in boot camp says, 'I would not leave a fellow soldier behind" and yet in the heat of the battle not all soldiers act as a hero. A similar test is what we face here. We all said we would, the test is to see if we do what we said we would despite not having our full mental capacity and awareness. It is a test of gut instinct, like the soldier in the heat of the battle who acts without thinking about it, it is the natural instinct that takes over. Likewise, the second estate reveals our natural spiritual and faith based instincts. It is a measure of degree of glory, not whether there is any glory or not, just to what degree.

What are these principles and laws that govern creation of life, that you speak of? What you observe certainly is not inclusive of all these laws and principles. For example, Lazarus was dead for four days. In other words, his body was mush. His brain did not contain cellular structure any longer. All the neurons would have undergone cell death and destruction of the layers of the cell wall, the proteins gone, the connections lost etc. And yet Jesus was able to bring Lazarus back to life as he was before. In other words, he had to create life. He not only created life from "dust" but he created adult life of a being that had already lived a lot of his life. He was able to create the brain of the individual as it was, with the same wiring, the same mannerisms, the same amount of knowledge, language skills, social behaviors etc. Now I realize that you don't think the brain contributes anything to those aspects of a being but to us that understand how much the brain contributes to man in this dual being state we find ourselves in, I think this is a rather remarkable miracle, even as far as miracles go. It is remarkable because it demonstrates the power of God. God has shown us that He can make an adult body out of dust with that miracle. I stress again, an adult body! with a set of experiences and memory to make the individual as he was before from dust, from scratch, from just the materials alone. The miracle was not just flipping a switch and then he was alive, it had to include recreating the body as it was before because after 4 days at room temperature there are no neuronal connections to speak of. This is not like leaving someone on life support and then the come back. This is a body that is destroyed, in particular, the brain is just a bowl of organic material by then. The pathways that had taken Lazarus a lifetime to establish, Jesus was able to put together instantaneously. This shows that God has the power to make a physical brain that contains any set of memories, experiences, knowledge, mannerisms, skill sets etc. This is not just a miracle but expands what you and I think about what the laws that govern the creation of life really mean. I don't think we really understand the least bit of the laws that govern the creation of life, right now.

Exactly, well that is what is so amazing to me. Obtaining a body to be like God is such a unique doctrine but we really do not have a great understanding of why. We can quote scriptures as to the idea that it is required to have a fulness of joy but don't discuss why that is. We can say that we have to treat it like a temple but this does not allow for any understanding of its eternal significance. Maybe this is why, in part, I have such an interest in this topic. It is one of the top two reasons to sacrifice and risk all to come to this world and it is related to the reward we get after completing the test and yet it is barely understood. Those that don't want to think of the body as adding anything to the glory of a glorified being tend to suggest the body is nothing more than a covering. And yet if we think of the body adding anything more than just a covering or an interface then it can't be explained as to how it could add glory. In response to the rhetorical question offered by your friend (answering in a general sense, not as it applies to this thread), I am sure Lehi may have wondered the same thing as he spoke to the people of Jerusalem and I am sure Samuel wondered the same thing as he was rejected by the nephites. Sometimes witnesses to the truth are given so that "that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day." Again, I am not saying this as a defense against things said in this post, just saying that the rhetorical question given by your friend in a general sense suggests that he doesn't understand the power of being a witness, not only for good but for God's justice to those who do not give heed. Mark 16; " 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every ccreature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." ... sometimes the message given to "every creature" - even those that don't care to listen is for their damnation. The truthfulness of the topic is not based in its popularity. ... there are more people reading than those that post.

On top of the other answers already provided, I would add that the reason for the Garden of Eden is that God created all things in their perfect condition. There had to be a falling and a corruption process from the original creation so that we would need a Savior. This is what created the situation in which there could be a test of Faith, specifically a need to have faith in a Savior. This is similar to the typical downgrade in lifestyle a young adult faces when they leave their parents home. Suddenly they have to provide for their self and live out the things that they have been preparing for up until that time. Likewise, we knew there would be a time that we would have to say that we were able to show our faithfulness and loyalty to God's plan by our actions and desire of our heart. We would have to show our faith, not by words alone as that is what was done by passing the first estate test. The second estate test had to be one of true character, to choose God over the world of carnal temptation. The atonement provides a way to have everything return to the original creation state, a paradisaical state. In this way, it is the transgression of Adam and Eve that brought about corruption and allowed Satan to "bruise" our heels (temptation through carnal influences). I think it is important to realize that it is through the fall of Adam that we can have joy by knowing good and evil but also that God did not "create" the evil in that He did not force it upon us. We all had to make that same decision as Adam and Eve, to stay in God's presence and not progress or to leave and fall but move forward by doing so. I think it is also important that we realize that our current state is one that came about because of that transgression and we are not like our perfected self right now. So, the excuse I hear so often of "I was born this way" or "God made me this way" is not the full picture as it takes away the credit we get for choosing to have this experience of a fallen state.

I think if you substitute the word "through" with "throughout" it makes a little more sense. In other words, it is saying that anyone who listens to the missionaries or members who bear their testimony of the Spirit will also be enlightened. The rest of the section explains the focus of 'letting our light shine' and not hiding it under a bushel. Look at verses 62 - 64. Matthew 5: " 14 Ye are the alight of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a acandle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

Thanks for your response. I believe I have said on many occasions that it was Satan's influence in the garden of Eden that led to the Fall and the corruption of the body occurred with the Fall. So, in that sense, that the root cause of why there is a "natural mind" is Satan. The important aspect of the discussion though is that where the rubber meets the road (so-to-speak) is the interaction of the natural mind and the spiritual mind. As Brigham Young describes it as warfare between these two forces being within us, that is where the battle between Christ and Satan takes place. And this is where David O. Mckay and Paul describe the opposition to be as it pertains to our experience in the flesh. In the pre-mortal life it was a spirit versus spirit war. Here it is a spirit to spirit (the light of Christ or the Holy ghost to our spirit) versus spirit to body (Satan's power over the carnal body) battle. I don't think I have ever unlinked Satan to the body. And I have stated that the body is like any tool, like money, it can be used for good and evil. The default drive of the body though is evil. In other words, if the controls aren't learned or mastered then the natural man is an enemy to God. Brigham Young likened it to the reigns of a wild horse. The body is like a wild horse, naturally. But when the wild horse is broken it can become domesticated and mastered. The airplane metaphor was an attempt at that same metaphor Brigham Young used but a more modern one - same idea. Brigham Young stated that the battle is a lifelong one. I believe we have to endure to the end. He said, only upon death (leaving the corrupted body behind) do we come unto His rest fully for those that have expressed righteous desires. But, as we gain mastery over the body the burden is lightened. I agree with that. There is no reward of joy for choosing spiritual things if there are no other options. Just like Adams ability to experience joy is limited in that state of paradise. It wasn't until he had a fallen body that he could no experience joy because of the misery that came with the body. Paul realized that he didn't really want to get rid of the thorn in the flesh because it is through the thorn in the flesh that he becomes closer to God. There is nothing wrong with the idea of having to endure the thorn in the flesh throughout our whole life, in fact that may be beneficial. 2 Corinthians 12: " 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." I am not sure what area of doctrine is threatened by a body that actively pulls us away from spiritual influences, especially if we can say that it came about because of Satan. What specific doctrine is threatened by that idea?

Ah, you shouldn't have gone to Brigham Young, it is with him that I have the most stimulating quotes about this topic. Well, since you quoted Brigham Young lets give his full impression of the situation and not a partial one; “You are aware that many think that the Devil has rule and power over both body and spirit. Now, I want to tell you that he does not hold any power over man, only so far as the body overcomes the spirit that is in a man, through yielding to the spirit of evil. The spirit that the Lord puts into a tabernacle of flesh, is under the dictation of the Lord Almighty; but the spirit and body are united in order that the spirit may have a tabernacle, and be exalted ; and the spirit is influenced by the body, and the body by the spirit. In the first place the spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both. Recollect, brethren and sisters, every one of you, that when evil is suggested to you, when it arises in your hearts, it is through the temporal organization. When you are tempted, buffeted, and step out of the way inadvertently; when you are overtaken in a fault, or commit an overt act unthinkingly; when you are full of evil passion, and wish to yield to it, then stop and let the spirit, which God has put into your tabernacles, take the lead If you do that, I will promise that you will overcome all evil, and obtain eternal lives. But many, very many, let the spirit yield to the body, and are overcome and destroyed.” Knowing the plan of salvation, like I said before, we all can claim there is no corruption without the influence of an unclean spirit as Adam and Eve were influenced by such an unclean spirit and thus the Fall of man introduced malady of all kind. Yes, that is a teaching of the gospel, which is the plan of salvation. This is what is stated in 2 Nephi 2:27-29; " 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. 26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. 27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. 28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit; 29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom." Lehi taught his sons that Adam fell so that we might be free "according to the flesh" thus knowing good and evil and that the power of the devil is through the "will of the flesh". It says pretty clearly in verse 29; the will of the flesh giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate. Looking at Brigham Young's statements and Lehi's and David O. Mckay's and Paul's; what do you think "the will of the flesh and the evil therein" means? Brigham Young also stated; “The spirit which inhabits these tabernacles naturally loves truth, it naturally loves light and intelligence, it naturally loves virtue, God and godliness; but being so closely united with the flesh their sympathies are blended, and their union being necessary to the possession of a fullness of joy to both, the spirit is indeed subject to be influenced by the sin that is in the mortal body, and to be overcome by it and by the power of the Devil, unless it is constantly enlightened by that spirit which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which is imparted through the Gospel In this, and this alone, consists the warfare between Christ and the Devil.” What? the sin is in the mortal body? Note; "their" sympathies is plural, meaning there is a sympathy that comes from the spirit and another from the body and "this alone, consists the warfare between Christ and the Devil. Again, Brigham Young said "but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both." I don't think you can separate the body and the "unclean spirit" as easily as you want to. The body is the conduit in which the devil has power. A car accident is really caused by people, not cars but we still call it a car accident, not a people accident. The "healing of the body" is the same as alleviating the effects of the Fall which was put into motion by the enticing influences of the Devil. They cannot be separated from that event. To interchange the words is not difficult to someone who understands the plan and the need for such carnal influences to bring about God's plan. The Fall is the introduction of all things "unclean" to those who were clean.

I think I am referring to the verse in D&C 101; " 24 And every corruptible thing, both of man, or of the beasts of the field, or of the fowls of the heavens, or of the fish of the sea, that dwells upon all the face of the earth, shall be consumed; 25 And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the dearth. 26 And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face." All the elements become new so that the glory of God can dwell on the Earth, just like when one meets with God now, there has to be a transfiguration of some kind. Erastus Snow in Revelations and Restoration said; "A change will come upon the inhabitants of the Earth similar to that experienced by the three Nephite disciples who were translated. By revelation Moroni learned what is explained in 3 Nephi 28:39. " 38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world. 39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them. 40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens." I think it says there pretty clearly that a change in the body was enough to keep Satan from having any power over them. I am not sure why that is such a hard principle to swallow. Revelations of the Restoration page 733; “When the Lord comes again, “the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory” (Article of Faith 10). Isaiah prophesied of “a new earth” during the Millennium (Isaiah 65:17). All that is corruptible – everything of a telestial order – will be destroyed, for a terrestrial or Edenic law will rule during the Millennium. This test affirms that when Adam fell, the whole earth fell – including everything in the plant and animal kingdoms. Prior to the fall of Adam there was neither death nor corruption of any sort in these kingdoms or in any other place in the world that Adam inhabited. With the return of Christ, all things will return to a state like that known in Eden.”

Why do you take such a hard line about it not being the child's body? It is not true that all bodies are the same. We are all given different challenges and "thorns in the flesh". Not all children are born blind and yet Jesus cured that person of his blindness. The reason you can't understand this situation is because of your hard line against the ideas that the body can act of itself and that we are all born with corrupted bodies by way of the Fall. What is the purpose of such a hard line against that idea. It adds nothing to the gospel doctrine as I see it and it only takes away from understanding of such situations as the one you presented. To me the child that is a lunatic is easy to understand. I've seen many of them in my line of work. How are the people of Jesus time, the meridian of time, to understand a child that is a "lunatic". They would say that the child was possessed. Do you think the scriptures should have been more specific as to the cause, like: "There was a child with Schizophrenia." or "There was a child with pre-fronal medial temporal dysplasia"? or "There was a child with periventricular hemorhage and cerebral palsy"? It is funny that on one hand you can easily call something symbolic and yet in another verse you have to take it as literal just because the details could not be inserted. Which disciple of Christ you think knew about all the physical causes of lunacy in childhood that could record such information? Without that knowledge the only thing that the disciple could call it is "an evil spirit". The child was "cured" as what happens with illnesses being cured. Why didn't you take that literally? You can't have it both ways.

The last question in in relation to the first part in that I am asking about your understanding of a change in the "flesh" which takes place as part of the millennium to allow people to live longer. "Flesh" that I was referring to was that which Paul talks about in Corinthians "“And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me." In the LDS guide to the scriptures Flesh has several meanings; "Flesh has several meanings: (1) the soft tissue that makes up the bodies of mankind, animals, fowls, or fish; (2) mortality; or (3) the physical or carnal nature of man." The carnal nature of man changes during the millennium as well as the state of mortality.

Fine, for your benefit, change the metaphor to be an airplane whose autopilot is malfunctioned and pulls in a direction off course. There is a plan for nature which is to be telestial in nature; self preservation, survival, self centered goals and drives, survival of the fittest, etc. But, again, you are mistakenly assuming that my metaphor suggests the plane (the body) can sin. It cannot. It can only do what it does by nature. It can create adulterous drives, drive for self gratification, it can alter perception, misdirect, imagine, create information that is not exact, mistake, misconceive, confabulate, hunger, thirst, fear, release adrenaline, lose memory, forget, create an incorrect emotional response, dream, create a sense of pride based in appearance (racism or riches) etc. None of those things are sin in and of their self just like money is not a sin but the love of those things, the desire to continue in those things is a sin. The mortal body as it is now, is of this world, it is dust and will return to dust. A change has to take place to make it one of glory. We try to put off the natural man and sanctify the body but it is not sanctified totally until it is transformed or raised in resurrection. In the meantime it is fleshy, carnal and corrupt. When a person with Tourette's yells out an explicative, curses, or has a motor tic that results in a rude gesture; is that the spirit of the person or the body? And who is accountable for that? Who sinned to make the man who was born blinded? ... there was no sin. Why can't you accept a faulty body that naturally pulls away from the things of God? We are a peculiar people, we go against the norm, we pull away from what comes natural. There are few that do that. Most go with the natural. The majority of people in this world do not have control of the plane but still head in certain directions. People can create vast amounts of treasures, the test is whether the treasure is one that turns to dust or those that last. The people that create treasures are productive but in ways that are not eternal. They are not non-productive, they are not non-learned but they are dependent in the arm of the flesh and learning of man. The ways of man is not "no way", it is mammon. The parable of the unjust steward is difficult to understand but one that shows Christ's view of us having two masters, which I would suggest is the same as two minds which David O Mckay and Paul discuss. It was after that parable in which Christ gave the statement that we cannot serve two masters. But, if you think about that carefully, then that is a statement that we have two masters and have to pick one. That is the test. Elder James E. Talmage (1862–1933) wrote: “Worldly-minded men do not neglect provision for their future years, … while the ‘children of light,’ or those who believe spiritual wealth to be above all earthly possessions, are less energetic, prudent, or wise. … “… Emulate the unjust steward and the lovers of mammon [money], not in their dishonesty, cupidity, and miserly hoarding of the wealth that is at best transitory, but in their zeal, forethought, and provision for the future.” Here Elder Talmage explains that worldly minded men can have specific goals and do it with "zeal, forethought and provision for the future". That does not sound at all like a no-direction drive. The parable of the unjust steward tells us that we should have the same zeal but over the right things. The same statement is made when we use the metaphor of being blessed for hungering and thirsting after righteousness (as opposed to hungering and thirsting after the things of this world). The metaphor of taking on the cross of Christ is to leave this body, give up this body for the right things. When we take on the flesh and blood of the sacrament we are giving up the drives of this body in place of the body of Christ which was sanctified and does not have the same drives. We are baptized to clean the body. We are washed and anointed to symbolically suggest a separation from the drives of the body. That is the battle we face. No greater love hath a man than to lay down his life (to forsake the things of this world and to forsake the drives of the body) for things that really are important.

The righteousness of men triggers the binding but God is the one who can either let loose or bind. The association I was pointing out is irregardless of the trigger. We were talking more about the mechanisms of how opposition is introduced. So, are you suggesting there is no alteration to the human body to allow it to not die during the millennium?

Let me ask you; when the lion is made to eat straw like an ox as opposed to killing and eating meat, what changed? Is the spiritual disposition of a lion to kill and eat meat or to eat straw? Is it the spirit or the flesh that changes during the millennium? Answer: D&C 101:26 " 26 And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face. 27 And in that day whatsoever any man shall ask, it shall be given unto him. 28 And in that day Satan shall not have power to tempt any man." Seems here at least, the power of Satan to tempt man is associated with the flesh. At least they change at the same time, with the Fall he is given power to bruise the heel of man, and at the millennium when the flesh is changed he looses power to tempt. ... maybe it is coincidental.

First of all, it is a metaphor... If the pathway is directed towards carnal pursuits, things of dust and then one develops a love of those things, that is what makes the natural man an enemy to God. Carnal enticements can be very direct, sex, food, sleep, pleasure, self gratification etc. They don't have to be smoke and mirror deceptive enticements, they can be very specific just like Jesus was tempted with 3 very specific temptations. I am not sure why the exactness of the temptation would make you think it is not an enemy to God's plan. The Garden of Eden temptation was very exact. One tree or the other. The temptation was not; either wander around without a purpose or eat of the tree of life. But, unlike the Garden of Eden, our choices are not all or nothing while we are here. It is not a single fork in the road, it is continual while we are here. We are constantly fighting the influences. The sin is in the inaction by the pilot in the metaphor, not by the predesignated flight plan. The exposure to carnal things alone is not sin. To fight against the pulling enticing carnal desires is not sin. The enticements come from somewhere. Ultimately they came from the events of the Fall, the corruption that began at that moment. The body presents the opportunity to choose between carnal drives and spiritual ones. In the same way the Tree of Death did not sin, the body does not sin but provides an option. The deceptive lure towards carnality comes from Satan and at the same time Satan didn't have to be the Tree of Death in the garden.

This is a metaphor I was reminded of, from my husband who used this to teach our kids about bad thoughts, family home evening lesson. I think he got it from his mission president, not sure. Metaphor for the mind of man; Consider an airplane on autopilot (this represents the body and mortal man). There are flight paths preprogrammed into the autopilot program that will take you to predetermined destinations (this represents the natural tendencies of the body and the genetically encoded thought patterns of the brain). The airplane and the autopilot programs are the “natural man” and if nothing is done to alter it, these are the pathways that will be taken by default. The airplane represents the body and the brain and its natural tendencies, what is called the “natural mind”. Now, imagine a pilot was placed in the cockpit which represents your spirit self “spiritual mind”. The problem is the pilot (spirit self) has had no training in flying a plane and has to learn on the job (reaching the age of accountability). This is a tough way to learn and so most, simply, let the autopilot take over and direct the plane where it will. Other pilots realize that they need to learn how to control the plane quickly and focus on that problem early. The limited ability to control the plane represents our limited spiritual influence on the body unless there is specific effort made (learn wisdom in your youth). Most people start out with some sense of urgency to figure out how to fly the plane (light of Christ). The urgency to figure out how to control the plane goes away if the pilot relies on the autopilot system (losing the light of Christ). As the pilot is trying to figure out how to get control of the autopilot there is a faint signal coming in over the radio, the airport radio tower is faintly asking if you need help and is willing to help. The radio tower represents the gospel teachings and the Holy Ghost influence. If we can stay tuned in then we can receive instruction but one has to listen very carefully to receive the instruction. A flight attendant lets the pilot know that she knows how to operate the radio and can help the pilot receive instruction (gift of the Holy Ghost). The flight attendant is aware of specific channels to keep the signal strong (the effect of covenants). The pilot also finds instructions on how to fly the plane in one of the compartments and starts to read quickly. The written instructions represent the prophets and the writings of the prophets. In the meantime there is a lot of commotion in the back of the plane as the passengers realize there is no real pilot on board. The commotion represents the distractions and influences of the world that may pull the pilot away from directing the plane. Then someone knocks on the door and says “I’m a pilot, I can fly the plane”. The pilot (spirit self) replies “it’s okay I think I’ve got it”. The passenger replies; “well at least let me be your co-pilot”. The pilot agrees to accept the help. This passenger claiming to be a pilot represents Satan. He is lying; he really doesn’t want to help but take over the plane and direct it away from where you want to go. His methods are deceptive and are based in lies. At first it might sound like a good idea but they only pull a person away from the right path. The pilot can either let him in or not. The pilot can also let him control the plane for a while and then take back over. Some pilots let him co-pilot the plane and before they know it, the co-pilot has taken over the controls completely before the pilot really figures out how to control things. If we let Satan in our thoughts and give over control, eventually it will be nearly impossible to take that back over. This process usually starts slow with seemingly harmless choices but in the end it becomes overwhelming. This pretend co-pilot, though, is too wimpy to overpower the pilot directly and so tries to change the course by gaining control of the co-pilot controls, little by little. He realizes the best chance he has is to make the pilot think he can trust him and then slowly change where he wants to go. Once the pilot is convinced of changing the flight path to the co-pilots desired location the pilot starts to turn off the radio and tells the flight attendant, “It’s okay, I don’t need your help anymore”. The pilot then adopts the flight path of the deceptive co-pilot. The pilot then is changed and continues to desire the wrong flight paths even when he is not in the plane (this represents the effect of carnal thoughts on the spirit if they are taken in as one’s own – this continues even into the next life, when outside the “plane”, the body). Using this metaphor has helped my children understand the relationships between carnal and spiritual influences. A key part of the metaphor, though, is that there is an autopilot function in the plane. Without it, there is no opposition to contend with. If the plane simply followed the pilot’s commands, then there is no difference in testing the pilot in a simulator verses the real situation. As in this life, there are variables that are out of our control we turn to God, humbly asking for help and in this way learn to live by faith. There is no need to learn to live by faith if the plane didn’t have a preset “mind of it’s own”. Likewise, our bodies have direction, they have instincts, desires, drives and even spontaneous thought, imagination, creativity, and provide false information that has to be interpreted by the spirit and altered. Otherwise, the default, natural man (autopilot), takes us to undesirable locations. Continuing with the metaphor, this autopilot situation is only temporary. I don’t think the perfected body will have such an issue. The “autopilot” feature (instinctive carnal drives) is part of the corruption created by the Fall. That corruption is corrected and overcome by Christ for all of us.

I agree. The human body is corrupted by the Fall. The spirit isn't corrupted by the Fall but can become so if it adopts the things we are exposed to here and takes them to heart. We can live in the world without becoming part of it. What we have to endure are the carnal influences and focus on spiritual ones. Everyone has a different set of stewardship, several of those stewardship sets and challenges of this world can emanate from the body. We know this is true as Paul describes the "thorn in the flesh". Even the healthiest brain in the world is still corrupt. The issue is that we all have been born into the "wrong body/brain" as you put it. We are to be tested according to the flesh. The test being trusting in the arm of the flesh or the spiritual influences. The tough part for a lot of people is distinguishing the two which is incredibly hard to do if one doesn't even believe there is a difference between the two. One of the benefits of understanding the plan of salvation is to remember who we really are. This temporary stewardship is not who we really are. This temporary set of traits is not reflective of the spirit body's development. It is easy to point this out in more obvious cases such as a person with Down's syndrome. But, again, I would suggest that we all have a corrupted brain. The amount of corruption may differ but I have never heard of anyone who was born in this world without a corrupted brain. Christ's may have been minimally so but He was still tempted with food, fame, pain, power, etc. The test is whether we claim the corruption as our own or do we look beyond that to know that we are children of God underneath this facade and in doing so, put off the natural man. The degree to which we fall in love with natural self verses spiritual self is what is described as the desire of our heart. If one believes that the corrupted natural brain self is who they really are, then the desire of the heart has turned to things of this world, which treasure will turn to dust in the end. It is easy to point out this mistake in someone who is narcissistic but it also applies to people who are learned and claim it as their own. We put off the natural man by remaining humble. Mossiah 3:19 " 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." And in verse 16 " 16 And even if it were possible that little children could sin they could not be saved; but I say unto you they are blessed; for behold, as in Adam, or by nature, they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins." In other words, all the things that come from nature, or from the Fall of Adam, Christ has atoned for those factors. And even little children have been exposed to that nature but they do not sin because God can separate those two factors, a spiritually clean self and a natural corrupted self for which the atonement makes it white as snow again. Beyond the age of accountability, of course, a person can incorporate the nature into self and express a love for carnal things and then they must repent to be clean again. But before the age of accountability the two natures are clearly different and the carnal is not allowed to affect the spirit quite yet.

That is not true for all parts of the brain, think about the sucking reflex in a newborn or crying. There are certainly functions that are there from the beginning without having done anything. But, thanks for the great comments. Now, take this what you stated about the brain's capability and realize that God could "wire" the physical brain any way He pleases. An example of this is Lazarus. He was dead for 4 days. The human brain is mush by 4 days. All the wiring is gone. There is no connection there. There is no potential for even re-wiring as the neurons are dead and apoptotic. Jesus brought back Lazarus to the same person he was before he died, Lazarus. If Jesus, through the priesthood power of God, can wire the human brain to match an adult set of connections without it having to go through a childhood list of experiences to form the wiring then imagine what could happen at resurrection. Have you ever wondered how we inherit all that God has and all that was before? The body may serve that purpose. It may be the way to obtain the eternities. As for the Celestial resurrection there is one body, i.e - one brain. It may contain all the experience of all those that came before and this may be how we can become part of that never ending history and future as if all those experiences we had on our own. This may be how we do only the things that we see the Father do if we were able to "see" all that is in His brain. It is just something to ponder as of course this is not doctrine or has been revealed to my knowledge. But, we do know that when we are resurrected into a Kingdom, we inherit a fullness of that Kingdom.

Thanks Traveler for remaining open minded about this discussion and thank you Anddenex for your opinion and discussion. I think this issue is so dear to my heart because I work in the medical field and specifically with patients that have brain related problems and yet I can feel the presence of their spirit underneath the expression of those issues. In discussing the "devilish" aspects of carnality, I think the term corruption fits that feature pretty well. To understand that our mortal bodies are corrupted by the effect of the Fall is to appreciate the reason we need a Savior. There were many things that happened at the point of the Fall, for each of us. Specifically, for Adam and Eve, their bodies changed. The whole world changed. Does the spirit of a lion really desire to kill gazelle or is that something that happens because the fallen bodies of every creature changed? With the millennium, carnal features will change again and we can see the prophesied changes that will occur including living in peace, no death and at the same time Satan is bound. It makes me wonder about who Satan can affect us as it seems to be associated with the corrupt nature of our bodies. Jesus spent a lot of time correcting the corruption of the body, healing and one of His final acts while here was one of overcoming the mortal body. One of the unique aspects of our religion is a belief in needing a body to be like God. I am not sure of any other religion that believes that. If that is the case, I don't think we appreciate the significance of that belief. It is a clear statement about the nature of God, that God needs a body and that the body is beneficial to Him. You are absolutely right that there are many wonderful features of the body, probably many of which has not yet been revealed. The limited features of the mortal, corrupted body might not fully show what the perfected body is capable of as we are tested in little things so we might gain greater stewardship. It is important to realize that the prize for passing the test is presented in the form of a body, either a Celestial one, or a Terrestrial one, or a Telestial type that is varied as the stars vary. Keeping our eye single to the glory of God, I think, takes an additional significance when one realizes that part of His glory comes from His Celestial body. This may be how a "fullness" is received, like buying a computer that comes fully loaded. If experience, perception, understanding, social behavior etc. is contained within the wiring of the brain, then one can truly receive all that the Father has at the moment of receiving a Celestial body. If it is only contained in the spirit, then the body is not so important and adds little to becoming like God.

I agree with most of the things you say here and especially towards the end of your comments here. And I appreciate your willingness to engage me in this topic. Thank you for your comments. Why can't these "different temptations" be carnal desires? We weren't exposed to carnal desires before. Why cant these "different temptations" be the brain saying "I am hungry" when it is fast Sunday, or "I want to take a nap" instead of visiting with widow Smith? Why can't these "different temptations" be a brain that says, "that other person is sexy" even though the person is married? Or why can't these "different temptations" be a brain that says "self preservation, survival is most important" when we know we should give of our time and resources to serve others? As Paul describes all the carnal desires, I know of brain influencing aspects to those desires by understanding the brains circuitry and its influence on hormones and perceptions; The works of the flesh are manifest as these: “… Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, “Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, “Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." We know that the nature of God is that He has a body and spirit and not spirit alone. If that is the case, and we are trying to be like God, this being one of the fundamental parts of our religion; for God - what is it that His body provides to His being that the spirit alone could not provide in forming His nature, His character and His glory? I am hearing in most of the comments that the body acts like a filter if anything. But, we believe that, at least in the next life, the body adds to our glory. Then what is added to our spirit being that wasn't there before? If one answers that question with any form of additional perceptions that the spirit is not able to perceive on it's own, then that by definition is thought. Or even if what the spirit receives is simply enhanced or modified by the brain, then there is an added component to the "mind" generated by the circuitry of the brain. The brain is not just a receiver and a transmitter. It interprets. The interpretation of information is modified from its original content both coming and going. If the body adds to the glory of God and the Glory of God is intelligence then one has to assume that the body adds intelligence. I would like to hear your thoughts about that. What does God's body add to His spirit to make Him greater than what would be spirit alone? Soul - spirit = what? It can't be nothing as the spirit alone does not = soul.

Agency is possible when there is opposition. The temptation or the opportunity to choose has to be presented. This is why, I am sure, David O. Mckay describes it as contrasting natures.

The benefit in following such personal revelation received by the spirit, I am sure, is in terms of learning how to keep one's eye single to the glory of God and not on personal merit. If done with that focus as directed then yes they should follow that inspiration and will be blessed for doing so. I would suggest though that there is no amount of secular knowledge one could obtain in this life that the spirit prior to coming here was already exposed to. For example, was there some mathematical equation or law of physics that we could only learn as a mortal being? Was there some biological mechanism that we couldn't learn about in the thousands or millions of years in preparation for this life that will not come pouring back to our memory after this life is done? The veil will be removed, it is not permanent. The tabula rasa of this life is not a permanent situation.

Identical twins is not a perfect example because even though we say "identical" there are actually slight genetic differences, enough to allow for some difference in personalities etc. But, if you were to look at the relative similarities instead of trying to find the exception to the rule then you would see that there is a strong association to genetics and personality, thought pattern etc. If you were to look at the average variability amongst us, not the exception to the rule like your one friend, then I think you would agree that on average, identical twins are more similar in their personalities then the average difference between everyone else who is not their identical. You are avoiding my point by trying to find an exception, which makes it hard to have a conversation about it. I never said that there is an idea of any two spirits having a set variability, but the average variability is different comparing identical twins verses the average variability amongst others. i.e. - the standard deviation in personality, if one were to do a personality assessment, amongst identical twins verses the standard deviation of personalities of siblings who are not identical. Then one could see the relative influence of body/brain to personality and therefore thought pattern etc. Let me ask you, do you believe that if a person who has same sex attraction were theoretically able to change bodies with someone who has opposite sex attraction still have same sex attraction or would it change to the predisposition of the new body? In other words, is it the spirit that provides the same sex attraction (note - I am not saying the practice of same sex attraction or the yielding to the same sex attraction, just the attraction or the tendency for attraction alone) or is it the body/brain that provides the same sex attraction. Is the same sex attraction something the spirit is truly born with from a spirit birth standpoint or is it only with mortal birth that they are tested with that stewardship? Or for that matter, did we even have any sexual attractions as spirits alone? If you say no to that then you would have to agree that there is a separate "mind" that is added to our soul when there is body and spirit combined. One can call the union of these two influence "one mind" if preferred and in fact I believe there are many scriptures that do that. But then there are other discussions, such as when Paul and David O. Mckay separate the two influences, the natural mind and the spiritual mind as they originate from two different sources. Together they are one, no doubt, especially since we have a hard time separating it while in this existence. I believe though that God does not have difficulty where those influences come from. That is why only He can judge another. As we cannot separate where the influences come from in any one person we cannot judge because we cannot see the inner man to separate those two influences. So, we are stuck with seeing the "one mind" even though we are told there are two natures. As David O. Mckay said, "That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body." If the "natural body" has no mind then I am not sure why we have such complex circuitry in the brain to generate self awareness, personality traits, drives, tendencies, likes and dislikes, spontaneous thought that has been shown through the default networks in the brain when not focused on anything in particular, etc. All of that would be useless if the "mind" is solely a construct of spiritual input. Just like a donkey talking, our brain would not need to be complex, if the spirit just made it talk, think and act alone. The only way to make sense of it is to realize that the soul or what you are saying "one mind" is the combination of input from the brain and the spirit. I think, if you were to look at humanity as a whole, the majority of people do not listen to the same spiritual influences that allowed them to pass the first estate test in which they showed sufficient faith to believe in Christ and God's plan. And yet you think that same spirit drives them now. It seems to me a different set of thoughts drives them, unless they humble their self and listen to that still small voice it is overpowered by stronger influences. Not because that is their spiritual nature. They already proved that that is not their spiritual nature. Satan already tempted all those spirits with everything he had and they showed that they did not agree with those things by passing the first estate test. They passed the spirit verses spirit test. Now we face a different challenge, spirit verses flesh test. Or spiritual verses carnality. You want to say that the spirit verses carnality test is still somehow a spirit verses spirit test ... well why would be facing the same test we already passed? This test is different.

You said the ability to obtain knowledge is linked to the brain. If you are just talking about spiritual things, then how is that true? If you don't remember anything the spirit learned then how can one claim that every thought and personality etc. is generated by the spirit. Intelligence requires memory. If we have zero memory from our spiritual pre-mortal growth then how much does the spirit really contribute to our current level of intelligence as mortals, as a dual being? I think, as we are spiritually minded, small pieces of our spiritual intellect come to use but is easily overpowered by carnal brain circuitry and lost in the haze if not remaining in touch with the spirit. When I was using the word "you" it was intended to be more general, as in if one believes that their knowledge obtained through the brain is their own (sorry, I do that from time to time - blaming it on my carnal brain, lol). On the other hand you did say that you think the mind is one, so if one believes the mind is one then any perception of self would include earthly characteristics as one thing. Of course, if you don't believe the brain originates any thought (while it requires the spirit to be active) then of course there is nothing to claim that comes from the brain. Maybe you are trying to say that the brain adds nothing to character or expression of thought? If one believes the brain adds nothing to the soul, then there is nothing there to claim as own. Do you not believe in genetically inherited traits? Is there any input into intelligence that is genetically inherited falling into the mortal body patterns of inheritance? Why do identical twins, raised in the same environment have similar personalities to each other as well as observable traits from parents in an earthly mortal inheritance pattern if it is not the body that contributes to personality and thought pattern and intelligence? It isn't because the earthly parents begat the spirits of those twins. Their two spirits should be just as varied as any other two spirits.