Seminarysnoozer

All of my thoughts and all of your thoughts does not make 100%, whereas God and all that are like Him have 100%. All is equal to all. And all includes everything the other person has. If I put all my money in a bank account and my husband puts all his money in that same bank account and we are joint owners of the bank account then we both own 100% of the bank account. We are equal in our ownership and there is no difference in what one owns over the other. The glory of God, of which we are supposed to all have an eye single to, is something that is co-owned. The hang up is when we throw in the equation any idea of proprietary ownership, which by definition is satanic. If you give me all your thoughts in this matter and they are exactly like mine and I receive them as if they are my own and you likewise then in that matter our thoughts would be equal. The problem is that in this life and in this state you and I do not have the ability to perceive all our thoughts and make them our own from the other.

You have to compare apples to apples though. At that point when he stated that, he was mortal. Now, or after He receives a fullness, He is equal in all things. Else, what is meant by fullness? Does it really mean part?

That is what Celestial life is like, to love your neighbor as your self. We are told to do that so that we can begin to learn and show that we like such a lifestyle as God will not give us something we don't like. The start of such love is in the family. Think of the love you have for your children (if you have any) or your parents love for you, that is a good example of this kind of love and familiarity.

Thanks, what makes the discussion difficult too is that we are currently of a different nature than our true nature, we are in a fallen state. So, when one reads about "change" in the scriptures, it is usually in the setting of changing from the fallen state to a change of heart that allows the atonement to change us back to our true, pure and innocent nature. We start innocent, we end up innocent, looking at the bigger picture from start to end. Once the details of our true nature have been revealed by this process, I don't see it changing. A change is only possible from this life because we are not really like our spiritual self right now. So, the test of change is made possible after falling. After the Fall is accounted for, there is no further changing unless one believes it is possible to fall again and therefore require a Savior again. The suffering you are referring to is still part of the second estate process. Once a person is received into a Kingdom there is no more suffering. The Kingdom designation is based in character traits not lack of learning a lesson.

There is a difference between revision and enlightenment. Like Traveler's post from Isaiah and Christ' description of the need for animal sacrifice, we learn line upon line. That does not mean anything was revised. Definition re·vise; Verb Reconsider and alter (something) in the light of further evidence. Noun A proof including corrections made in an earlier proof. en·light·en; Verb Give (someone) greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation. Give (someone) spiritual knowledge or insight. Nothing altered, just greater understanding. Calculus doesn't make multiplication false.

That is why I was trying to use the example of my son. Thanks for your discussion, I appreciate the exchange, it helps me understand my own beliefs and opens other areas for me. Thank you. I think one attempt to answer your question is with another, do you think God has eternal progression? And does His nature change? The other answer to your question comes with what it means "to bring to pass". If God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, then we have a summary description of the purpose of this life. Not everyone requires change. There are those souls who die with maybe one day in this world who go straight to the Celestial Kingdom. Even though, maybe, change is what happens to some here, it is not a necessary bridge that we all have to pass. All of us that live past the age of 8 though have fallen to the point of needing faith and repentance and the Saviors atonement to return to a non-fallen state. So in those past the age of 8 there is a need to change but it is a change back from the change (the fall). When we talk about things like a might change of heart we have to remember that is needed because of the Fall. We fell therefore we need to be saved from the fall and return to our previous state. The process of which reveals our true nature - Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial. As we know God's work is "to bring to pass" then He can't just say, "I see that you are a Celestial soul, enter into the Celestial Kingdom." God has to bring it to pass not just reveal the potential. All the reasons for us having to pass through the steps, I cannot say. But we do know that there is value to God in having completed the bringing about of the immortality and eternal life of man and not just recognizing the potential for it. The completion or the doing of the act is valuable. This is why this test is described as seeing if we will do the things we are asked to do (second estate test) and not just say we would (first estate test). I've explained it to my kids this way. A new recruit may say in boot camp, 'I would never leave a fellow soldier behind'. But, in the heat of the battle, the true hero's are not the ones who just say they believe that is the right thing to do but they are the one's who, despite their body telling them 'run', they go back into the danger, risking their own lives to help someone else, like they said they would. They actually do the thing they said they would. Likewise, we all said we believe in Christ, we believe in this plan, now it is a test to see if we actually do what we said we would, it is a test of character, a test of integrity. Once the test of character is done, God doesn't have to prove one's character again. There is no need to repeat the second estate test again.

Now is the time. There are many scriptures and quotes from the brethren that say such. There is no time after this time to make change. Before we came here we were matured fully developed spirit children. All here have proven their faithfulness by keeping the first estate. The test now is to see, to what degree are we faithful. The answer to that question is a testament to our nature of our being. That nature does not somehow change down the road. We are who we are after the time to change has passed. Justice is fully served, justified by the proof of this life about who we really are. In other words, if we were to take the test over again a hundred times, the result would be the same every time because God judges correctly with every go. I don't see a future test in which some would have proven the first test invalid. If there was a repeat test then either the first time it was graded incorrectly or the person somehow changed their nature. Our nature is set, we are mature intelligences. That doesn't mean we can't continue to learn and grow, just that our basic characteristics and desires of the heart are set. We are simply justifying those natures with physically showing that we will do what we said we would before this life began and thus realizing our potential, we are bringing to pass our potential. Like if I told my son he would make a great doctor, he is not a doctor yet until he goes through medical school, he is only 17 right now. I can tell that he would make a great doctor by his disposition and grades etc. and having worked in the medical field myself. But he isn't a doctor yet. And if he wants to be a doctor like he has expressed he would, he likely could, he just has to show it and do it. I can't call him a doctor until he goes through the steps. If he goes to school and then decides to do something else, I wouldn't have him repeat the process so that one day he could be a doctor, he would have chosen something else. Likewise, if we chose by our actions to be something other than Celestial, God is not going to make us choose that over an over again until somehow we choose Celestial because he would have gotten it right the first time.

The spirit teaches all that is needed, combined with a hunger for the truth. It is only learned by the spirit there is no other way. There is no revising necessary when guided by a Prophet of God. You are right in that those that are lost in the mist of confusion and fail to hold onto the iron rod can spend a lifetime trying to understand and never arrive at a serious understanding.

God the Father has offered us all that He has. ... unless of course, you don't want all and repeatedly tell yourself that you don't and can't. He won't give you something you don't want. Lucifer before this world began wanted only that which he could claim as a proprietary ownership as he didn't want to give credit to someone else for his own glory. This goes against God's plan. God's plan is to give glory to those who would receive it and yet not claim it as a single ownership. The prodigal son was given all when he returned and there was celebration even after he had wasted his original inheritance. By living with his father and not claiming any personal ownership, separate from the whole then he can have all as opposed to a portion. Those who desire a portion can have a portion but their treasure will turn to dust. Lambs do not atone for sins. They were offered in similitude of the true offering under the preparatory law as a shadow of what was the true sacrifice. Hebrews 10; " 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:" Partaking of the sacrament or fast offerings and even tithing do not atone for sin but do allow us to more in tune to the spirit and avoid sin and renew our covenants.

I never said they didn't experience it separately. I am not sure why you think I am making that point. I never said that. I simply said that they share their experiences. If my husband and I share a bank account, he makes money puts it into the bank account and I put money in the bank account, what we own together in that bank account is one amount, the sum total of both of our input. Even though there are two separate inputs the sum is one and we both own 100% of the sum as joint owners of the account. What you are trying to argue is that because there are two separate consciousness that it must remain separate. I don't think you can know that. If you already believe that God can know of your conscious then I don't see how it is too far of a stretch for you to comprehend the idea of shared experience, shared glory, shared joy, thus making it endless joy and endless happiness. As more and more join the 'bank account' so-to-speak, the glory is magnified and eternally increasing (of course, the 'bank account' has little to do with physical possession but more to do with glory and honor which we know can be given as Christ gives His glory to God) and yet not consumed or divided. This is what allows for eternal joy. What does it mean to have an eye single to the glory of God? Why would God want that if the system is one in which we have different 'accounts'. Those who know how to love their neighbor as their self start not to see the neighbor as a "separate" being even though they are. That characteristic is empathy and charity which is the pure love of Christ. Pure love is the method in which all experienced is shared. That is what we are trying to learn and show we are capable of here, for a reason. We get what we want. Another example of this is when one's own child gets an A in class, they are more likely to be affected by that than if another child gets an A. If we become that connected with God, then every achievement He or I make is shared in it's affect as if I or He did it. The result of the action is shared without having to make the same action. Just like my husband's income is shared without me having to make it myself and he shares mine. Christ is the example of doing something for someone else so they can reap the benefit of the action without forcing them to do it for their self, so long as they remain on the account (so-to-speak). Vicarious acts of love is what being Christ like, charitable, is all about. Showing faith in that system is what allows it to work. If I though my husband would take his share out of the bank some day (if I didn't have faith in him) then I wouldn't see the bank account as really being shared. ... unified but not shared. There is a difference.

Please be more specific as I don't see that when I read Abraham 3 but also keep in mind that we were talking about glorified beings that exist in the highest level of the Celestial kingdom. We were not talking about intelligent beings prior to them achieving that state.

Do you believe you can hide anything from God? How about a thought or an experience? How about a desire or something learned? How did Christ pay for our sins without knowing what they were? You are asking 'how'? That I can't answer. All I can say is that we believe He has that ability.

If my computer shows the same postings as your computer then there is only one set of postings but on two computers. That does not defy logic at all.

They may experience it individually but it doesn't remain individual for very long, if not instantaneously. It is beyond our understanding but I think Christ attempted on many occasions to try to enlighten us about that ability to be one. I think it is important for us to realize our goal of doing the same as we do everything with an eye single to the glory of God, and we love our neighbor as our self. We prepare ourselves and show our worthiness to have such a trait to see the inner man and not just the outward person to the point of seeing and experiencing the other person's thoughts and experiences as if they are our own. Do we not believe that there is nothing hidden from God? God sees the inner man. What thought or experience or "mindset" could I hide from God? Is there an experience that I could have that God could not have because it is just mine? John 15; " 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full." The plan of eternal joy requires that we abide in Christ and Christ abides in the Father and the Father is glorified by our fruits and we in His. If we don't obtain the same mindset then we wither and start to not produce fruit and we are cast into the fire. John 14; " 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." And from there we all know that He starts to talk about love as the greatest commandment. That is because loving one's neighbor as self is the only way to have that "mindset", to be able to share joy and glory. Christ states their equality in mindset pretty clearly here " 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."

Yes, that is what I was responding to, your OP "Thus we see that our place in eternity is at least in part based in the knowledge we have (as it appears to me) of G-d the Father and his Son (whom he sent). My question to all that believe in G-d the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ – how are we to distinguish them? What are the differences?" .... the underlined and bold showing where you said "we" and "as it appears to me". If I had all knowledge and understanding available in eternity I would imagine that I would, on numerous occasions see both the Father and the Son together in the same area as two separate individuals, like Joseph Smith did. I don't think there is any other measurable distinctiveness. It is difficult to speak of that kind of understanding because we don't have all of our spiritual capacity with us right now so it is hard to say how we would distinguish one from the other. There may be some intrinsic spiritual 'vibe' that lets us know who is who. But, I don't think there would be some distinct personality or mannerism or the way in which they speak etc. that would be distinctive. The idea of having Christ' image in our countenance or to be Christ-like etc. is a goal to become almost indistinguishable from Him. The idea of being a disciple is not only to follow but to be like Him. Do you not think we can get to that point? I am not following why you want to find distinguishing features between the two, even if it is in terms of work or glory or something else. Why is that important? ... I think the opposite is more important that they are one in every way and yet two separate beings.

One could define "truth" as truths that are eternal, so your question seems worded in a way to try to catch me in what I said, even though I never used the word "truth" just knowledge. "Truths" as we both know are acquired spiritually when we are really talking about "eternal truths". I may know the truth that Boston won the first world series of 1903 over Pittsburgh, but is that an "eternal truth"? So, your question requires a definition of what you meant by "truth". Even then, I will answer your question (assuming that such a question was asked with no intention for entrapment but for real discussion). The simple answer is the kind of knowledge that is not obtained spiritually. As the parable of the sower explains so well, it is not the seed that differs but how it is received. So, the question is not what knowledge but how the knowledge is obtained, whether it really takes root and starts to produce fruit or not. There are many scriptures and conference talks that describe the methods of receiving spiritual truths because it doesn't come natural to us, the natural man does not learn through the spirit. The "other type", is the kind of knowledge that does not stay with a person after this life, that is not spiritual knowledge as all things carnal will turn to dust. The kind that does not require being in tune with the spirit and receiving the message through faith in Christ, in other words, things that are not spiritually discerned. A proud individual cannot know the things of the Spirit. Paul taught this truth, saying: “The things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. … “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Cor. 2:11, 14). Read Richard G. Scott's talk on "Acquiring Spiritual Knowledge". 2 Nephi 9 " 39 O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal."

That is not a logical statement if a person believes that all that the Father has is given to those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom. Like the parable of the prodigal son, all the Father has can be ours. We can be one with God and Christ. Separate glories and levels etc. is what the Telestial Kingdom is all about, as one star differs from another. Of course, there is a process to get there and so at any given time when a person is in the Celestial Kingdom there may be some that are increasing their capacity. But, when it says a person receives a fullness of that particular kingdom, what does that mean? A fullness, to me, means all. If two people have 100% of something than there cannot be one over the other. The only way Christ could be lower in glory than God is if He does not have all the Father has, if He does not have 100%. The tough thing to comprehend about that is when we love our neighbor as our self, anything that person does is as if we did it our self, we feel for them, we empathize with them. We know this is a trait of God because this is what our Savior did for us in the Garden of Gethsemane. If He can feel our experiences in a vicarious way then we know that that skill and trait is from God. God has that trait too and I believe if we are to become like God then we can learn to be that empathetic, to really love our neighbor as our self. If we can achieve that, then anything that person does is shared in terms of it's glory and achievement as if everyone had done it. That is the power of Eternal and endless joy. Joy is limited when it is like Lucifer wanted it, only based in personal experience and achievement.

They are separate persons, I believe that. Maybe you should clarify in what aspect are you asking how they are distinguished ... appearance, glory, jobs, works etc.. I don't think there is anything that is distinguishable between the two. All that the Father has, the Son has as well. Christ's work and glory is doing the Father's work. You really believe that the Celestial Kingdom is a place where there is proprietary glory or wealth of any kind, whether it is personal achievement or personal accomplishment etc.? The glory of the Son is given to the Father and the Father freely gives all He has to the Son as if it is His own. Proprietary credit for achievements was Satan's plan not God's. When the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph, as far as we know, the only distinguishing factor was that one of them pointed to the other and said "This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" I am not sure that Joseph would have been able to distinguish one from the other without that direction. Your question was how we could distinguish the two. I don't think we would unless they said so.

If you are by yourself on that day, you are in trouble. Christ intercedes for us. Also, your relationship with others is extremely important and will most definitely come up on that day. Matthew 22; " 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 25; " 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or thirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." The Kingdom of God is established in its relationships, one with another. There is a place that is prepared for those who prefer few relationships, likened to the stars, separated one from another. Christ prayed that we would be one with another. We most certainly will be judged on our desire to be one with others and love them as our self. That is part of the test we face here. Family is the starting point for those types of relationships and then it grows from there.

I could be wrong but I don't see how you stated how we could distinguish them. What does God the Father have that Christ does not have? What does the father of the prodigal son have that the son doesn't? Does Christ become one with God or not? Does Christ receive a fullness or not? Even if you shave off one little feature that is a statement that Christ did not receive all that the Father has. Luke 15; "31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine."

Also, "knowledge" when used in the scriptures is referring to the type of knowledge that is obtained through the spirit, as defined by the 'LDS scriptures' on LDS.org.

To "maintain belief" one must base the "knowledge" (defined as; "Understanding and comprehension, especially of truth as taught or confirmed by the Spirit" LDS scriptures) on spiritual influences; Alma 18 " 35 And a portion of that Spirit dwelleth in me, which giveth me knowledge, and also power according to my faith and desires which are in God." The test is not based in the quantification of the accumulation of knowledge but more related to where you find your knowledge. I think you are exactly right there. Where do you try to find your base of knowledge? .... that is the test of this life. Your approach is opposite of what Jesus taught; Matthew 6: "33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." And just before that; Matthew 6; " 19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" In other words, if you treasure words of men, (historical, corrupt writings of men) then that is who you serve but if your eye is single to God, that is where you find your treasure, understanding and wisdom then you will be full of understanding. But, Matthew 6; " 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." You will find less and less treasure in God's word the more you find treasure in the corrupt. LDS do not believe that the purpose of this life is to obtain all knowledge and understanding as that was previously tested. In the pre-mortal life we had a test having all understanding of the gospel plan and purpose. We believe we all passed that test. There is no reason to retake that part of the test, to see if we are in agreement with the concepts. We already made that claim. Now, the test is to see if we will do the things we already said we would but in a situation where we have to rely on faith in Christ. The test of this life is not to see how much empirical knowledge we can gather and prove our reasoning skill, it is a test to see what we love more, the treasures of this world or spiritual treasures. Jesus expressed this concept over and over again, that we should care less about the proven and the tangible but care more about the unseen (spiritual side), Matthew 6 " 25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"

The basis is the 'light of Christ'. Everyone has it, to some degree. Some cause it to diminish by their actions and they obscure the "right eye" (ability to discern spiritual things). The other source of basis is self. We believe that we are dual beings, both spirit and body. Our spirit lived in a premortal world in which we accepted the plan (the gospel truth). We all had faith in Christ, everyone. So, it is a matter of getting in touch with that spirit self that is part of all of our belief system to begin with. The veil does not allow us to recall all that occurred previously but we can be reminded of things learned when we listen to the spirit. In other words, it doesn't have to be learned again, just contain a familiar feel.

Part of the purpose of this life is to bring about immortality of man too, not just Eternal life. There is value to immortality, it is part of God's work and glory. I don't think I would call it a loss or failure if it is part of God's work and glory. He certainly finds value in it even if you don't. People in the Telestial Kingdom have paid for their own sins in spirit prison until after the millennium and then they are resurrected. The resurrected state of the Telestial Kingdom is one in which enjoys the influence of the Holy Ghost and are visited by angels. Tell me, what person who still needs repentance can enjoy the company of the Holy Ghost or be visited by angels? They will receive happiness and glory beyond anything experienced here in this world. Outer darkness is the only place outside the presence (direct or indirect) of God. At the end of judgement, there is no further justice needed. The price for everything has been paid in one form or another. The only way Christ could offer another redeeming loan (after it was rejected in the second estate test) to souls is by way of the Fall in which a Savior could offer His life to pay for those sins and we don't believe in reincarnation or having another mortal experience. We also believe that God will get it right the first time, He won't change His mind about that judgement. If a Telestial resurrected being actually merits a Terrestrial glorified body then that suggests God got it wrong the first time.

Yes that was my point contrary to Electofgod's comment that people in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdom failed the purpose of their existence.