Seminarysnoozer

"Study it out in your mind" how much of what you know came from you. One can learn from others. Learning does not have to be based in one's own trial and error. Yes, one can learn from trial and error but we are told that it is better to obey without having to be prompted. If one has to try A before choosing B and finds that choice A was not good because there were bad results by choosing A then that is a choice based in prompting, trial and error. As opposed to listening to someone who knows better and says, 'choose B'. If choice B is chosen because one is listening to the spirit then there is no trial and error, it is simply based in faith and it doesn't require proof. It is done without the proof. One of the bad results of the attitude of "figuring out for one self" is that credit for success is given to self. That is what Satan wanted, all the glory for himself. He didn't want help, he couldn't swallow the idea of depending on a Savior, giving glory to someone else. But his ideas were false. Dependence brings glory, that is what is implied by statements like "an eye single to the glory of God" and "love your neighbor as your self". We can't save our self by our self. That is why I put those verses in about thankfulness, etc. Most everything we know in this life came from someone else. Someone else developed the words we are using now. I learned from my parents and teachers growing up. I learn from listening to the spirit. I learn from reading books that someone else wrote. I benefit from their learning and developing the computer I am now using. All of these things were inherited and so my thanks goes outward not inward for that associated learning. God knows all. One is not going to discover something new that God has not yet known. There is no need to "figure it out" as it has already been figured out. The benefit in discovery for man, behind the veil (not having access to all the things we learned before) is in showing where we put our faith, in the teachings of man or of God. It shows our hearts desire. Where we put our time and effort and faith is part of the test more than the actual factual content of what is learned.

The reason to "study it out in your mind" is to help us come to the conclusion that we cannot do it by our self. It is to have the ability to discern between the carnal and the spiritual more clearly so we know which one to follow. And my point is that there is nothing to "figure out". All one has to do is obey. We are not here to "figure it out". By definition, that is looking for proof or a sign. One can learn by faith and obedience. That is the better way to learn. Especially when one believes that everything that comes from God is truth. Like what was said in conference this weekend, there is such a thing as intellectual bondage. It is part of the passions verses spiritual reason that Elder Nelson talked about. One can have carnal passions for intellectual or secular learning which leads to bondage as one strays away from true doctrine by depending on their own carnal intellect. Spiritual promptings will not lead one astray. To receive spiritual promptings one has to put away the idea that they could do it on their own. Mosiah 2; " 20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another— 21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. 22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you. 23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. 24 And secondly, he doth arequire that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? 25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you." D&C 78; " 17 Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye are little children, and ye have not as yet understood how great blessings the Father hath in his own hands and prepared for you; 18 And ye cannot bear all things now; nevertheless, be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours and the blessings thereof are yours, and the riches of eternity are yours. 19 And he who receiveth all things with thankfulness shall be made glorious; and the things of this earth shall be added unto him, even an hundred fold, yea, more. 20 Wherefore, do the things which I have commanded you, saith your Redeemer, even the Son Ahman, who prepareth all things before he taketh you; 21 For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud, and appoint every man his portion. 22 And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things. Amen." What does "inherit" mean? It is the opposite of "figure it out" on your own.

Nope, things are done as they have always been done. One eternal round. No need to "figure it out". The pathway to Eternal Life is well mapped and planned. If He "learned from His Father" then who's plan was it? Doing things on one's own, without help, without a Savior is Satan's way. Humility is required to receive Celestial glory and to be like God. Elder Nelson commented yesterday about the reasons behind having dual natures in this life, so that we learn to depend on the Lord. We have already spent an "eternity" in the presence of our Heavenly Father. We all passed the first estate test as mature spirits. When a person can rejoice in the success of others, they will never be "bored" and their joy will be endless. This is probably why God's glory is not in the "figuring out" but in the bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This is also why we are told to love our God and secondly love our neighbor as our self. That is required in order to enjoy the success of others.

Where did you get this idea? If Jesus is our brother then we are of the same lineage. Do you not believe that Jesus is our brother? D&C 93; 21-22; " 21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; 22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn." All those who are faithful members of the church of the Firstborn will have the same glory as Christ. Christ acted in our name, vicariously. That does not diminish the act because it was done vicariously. A sealing done vicariously in the temple if accepted by those who passed is not anything less than those who did it while here for their self. Likewise, all that Christ has done can be ours too, as He did it for us. The same applies to God and the inheritance He received. If He had a Savior, an eldest brother, and He was faithful in the church of the Firstborn, then He becomes the same as the Firstborn as if He did it Himself. Then, rightfully, Jesus could say that 'I only do what I see the Father has done.' Because there is a Union, as you mentioned, it does not have to be done by all of us but by one. If we break the union, by disobedience, then we cannot receive it. Obviously, God didn't do that, He remained faithful, whether He was the Firstborn or a faithful member of the church of the Firstborn, it is the same. The Sacrament itself is a symbol of taking on His flesh and blood, to remind us that He did this vicariously for us. If we internalize what He did, then it is equal to what He did for Himself. We take on His flesh and blood, there is no different lineage.

Like I said before, I am not arguing the fact that faith without works is dead. They have to go hand in hand. Just because I am saying that Faith is the first principle doesn't take away the need to exercise faith. "Exercising" faith may be as simple as stating one's faith or enduring through trials. For example, I have a friend in our ward who had a disfiguring injury to her face and torso when she was young. She has faith that one day she could have an eternal marriage even though, despite her remaining faithful in the gospel and attending various activities and meetings, has not been successful in finding a husband. I have a belief that she will not be deprived those blessings because she has faith in the Lord and desires that blessing, even if she never does marry. After the test of faith, after the veil of this life is removed, she will have a chance to find a mate who may have been in similar circumstances but because of their faith are given the opportunity to receive the blessing despite not doing it here or any time during their probationary state. That, in fact, is the benefit of faith, you don't have to prove it to yourself. I don't have to prove that fire would burn my skin. Belief is good enough for me. I don't have to prove that drinking alcohol is not good for me. Having faith that the word of wisdom is true, is enough for me. And, yes, I am exercising faith by my abstinence, but the point is that the lesson doesn't have to be proven by the action, I believed it strongly the moment I started to live the word of wisdom. The lesson may be solidified after the action but it was known before any action. As Richard G. Scott said; "If you are single and haven’t identified a solid prospect for celestial marriage, live for it. Pray for it. Expect it in the timetable of the Lord. Do not compromise your standards in any way that would rule out that blessing on this or the other side of the veil. The Lord knows the intent of your heart. His prophets have stated that you will have that blessing as you consistently live to qualify for it. We do not know whether it will be on this or the other side of the veil. But live for it. Pray for it."

We believe it is possible for man to inherit all that God has. All means all. There is only one way to inherit all that God has and not diminish anything He has or lessen Him by any of us having it and that is if it is shared. Covenants allow us to share. We share responsibility and also the glory that comes with it via the covenants. The sealing power allows us to share the success of others. If there is one bank account that has been around forever and I add a person to the bank account then that person does not own more or less than anyone else on the bank account and they now own the full history of the bank account, all that was put in before their name was on the account. By being a part of that bank account, the person can claim ownership to all of its history and future. Similarly, reaching that level of the Celestial Kingdom is a process of inheritance. What is inherited? All that was done before, as if it was their own. Also, as stated, man is a dual being both physical and spiritual. When comparing man to God, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. What aspect of man are you comparing, the part that turns to dust?

We all expressed our faith in the plan and in the Lord as part of the first estate test. So, as far as what came first the chicken or the egg? Faith comes first. There are many examples of people who will obtain blessings for actions they did not do and solely based in faith. For example, all those that died before the age of 8. Also, if one desires to have an eternal family and has circumstances in which they cannot obtain it in this life, even though they desire to do so, will not be deprived of that blessing for their inability to do. God will judge based on the desire of the heart far more heavily than works, for sure, no question in my mind about that. If they could have done it and don't, I agree, they will be judged on that. The blessing that is predicated on that particular law is not based in the action but the obedience and the desire to obey. The test is to see if we will do the things that we expressed faith about in the first estate test. First we had faith in the plan, NOW we show that we will do what we said we would.

Maybe I am not following you correctly but it seems to me that you are changing your tune. You first made statements like these (above). Now you seem to be agreeing that faith is the first step. So, what is it for you? Faith in the Lord or do without having faith first? The "motive" is defined by faith in the Lord. I am trying to find that story where there was an interview of three people working on the Temple. One of them said they were just pounding stones, another said they were making so much money an hour and the other responded, I am helping building the house of the Lord. They were all doing the same thing but they all had different motives about what they were doing. Christ looks at the inner man and not just the outer. Like the example of the statement to the Pharisees I gave in this thread, doing alone without the right reasons is not fruitful. It will lull people into thinking all is well when they aren't really working on the right things. This life is a test of faith, not a test of knowledge. It is not a test of whether one can put all the square pegs in the square holes in a logical manner, it is a test of whether the person will do what the Lord says to do, whatever that may be with an eye single to the glory of God. We can both argue that faith and doing are important, I wouldn't disagree with that. What the discussion about is whether the doing alone could lead to faith. It may, but obviously in the case of the Pharisees and many other examples it is not a sure thing. They did the things and never developed faith. Whereas, if one first works on faith and then does, then that is holding onto the iron rod and walking down the narrow pathway. The discussion is about whether there is a difference between faith preceding the action verses doing the action and hoping that faith comes. I don't think we want to promote the idea that seeking a sign, or proof that it works is the best first course of action.

What you are talking about is the process Alma explained is the way to turn faith into a perfect knowledge. And he explained that once faith turns into a perfect knowledge there is no more faith. This process comes after the first principles of the gospel has worked in the hearts of the people. This comes after a person has lived the gospel in faith for a period of time but not necessary for salvation. Believing (not knowledge) is the first step. The belief is obtained through the spirit. Faith in the Lord is the seed. Alma teaches it is better to believe first through faith as opposed to having knowledge. Alma 32; " 16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe." Elder Hales; "Believing in the Savior and His mission is so essential that it is the first principle of the gospel: “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 What is faith? In his epistle to the Hebrews in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul taught that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” 2 And how do we gain faith? How do we gain evidence of our Savior, whom we have not seen? The scriptures teach us: “To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. “To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.”" Like Alma teaches, we do not want to put ourselves in that category that teaches anything like having to know first; " 17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe. 18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it. 19 And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?"

Thanks for your response, it is very good. I don't think having an "eye single to the glory of God" requires a master understanding or some level of learning before one can say they are keeping their eye single to His glory. I think the phrase is very similar to hold on to the iron rod, or stay on the straight and narrow. There are not varied pathways to that end. There is only one way. It is not done in our way or our own time or method but His way and that is the only way. We cannot serve God and Mammon. This life is a probationary time to see who we serve and to what degree. The only process required is to listen to the spirit and follow. It doesn't require a great understanding of where and why, just follow.

Having an "eye single" to His glory is not to have an idea of what it is more than where we give credit. If one does it for self reward then it is not single. Having an eye single to the glory of God is the opposite of what Satan did, who wanted the glory for himself. Not having an eye single to the glory of God is called Priestcraft. Marlin Jensen of the seventies teaches; "As I have searched the scriptures in recent months for guidance in my new calling, I have become aware of the importance to our eternal welfare of our motives, our desires, and our attitudes. I speak of one of these today: the necessity of performing our earthly labors with “an eye single to the glory of God.” (D&C 4:5.) The temptation to seek personal recognition and reward from our service to others is ever-present. The pattern was established in the pre-earth life by Satan himself. There, when the Father explained His plan of salvation for the inhabitants of this earth and the need for a redeemer, Satan responded by saying: “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” (Moses 4:1.) In contrast, Christ showed us for all time that God’s work is to be done with an attitude of Thine, not mine. Said He: “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” (Moses 4:2.) Those who seek honor and gain for themselves in doing the Lord’s work are guilty of what the scriptures call priestcrafts. Of this sin, Nephi stated: “Priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.” (2 Ne. 26:29.)"

"Doing" doesn't count for anything unless it is done with an eye single to the glory of God. Luke 11: " 37 And as he spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat. 38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner. 39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. 40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also? 41 But rather give calms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you. 42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." The "love of God" or doing things with "an eye single to the glory of God" needs to accompany anything we do. ... it isn't just going through the motions like the Pharisees.

The Lord's rest is from the turmoil we find in this world. D&C 84; " 24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his danger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory." This kind of "rest" has nothing to do with labor, it has to do with the pull we have towards the natural man. When we die we leave behind the natural, corrupted body unless one has internalized that nature into their spirits, then it stays with them. This life is a probationary period, it wasn't meant to last. It has an end, so we will rest from these conditions. Per Malm of the Seventies; "To find rest unto our souls includes peace of mind and heart, which is the result of learning and following the doctrine of Christ, and becoming Christ’s extended hands in serving and helping others. Faith in Jesus Christ and following His teachings give us a firm hope, and this hope becomes a solid anchor to our souls. We can become steadfast and immovable. We can have lasting inner peace; we can enter into the rest of the Lord. Only if we turn away from light and truth will a hollow feeling of emptiness, like the tree’s, occupy the innermost chambers of our souls, and we even might attempt to fill that emptiness with things of no lasting value. In view of our existence as spirit children before we came to earth and immortality in the life hereafter, this earth life is indeed but a very short moment. It is, however, a day of probation, but it is also a day of opportunities when we choose to follow the invitation to not waste the days of our probation (see 2 Nephi 9:27). The thoughts that we dwell on inside our minds, the feelings we foster inside our hearts, and the actions we choose to take will all have a determining impact on our lives, both here and in the hereafter."

Red Pottage - see Genesis 25

I think you said it well there, "it's just how my brain works." Realize we are dual beings, both body and spirit. The test is to see which one we succumb to, the influences of the body verses the influences of the spirit? The brain (part of the body) is corrupted from the Fall of Adam. It is carnal in nature which presents us with that option of carnality. Do we fall in love with things carnal or things spiritual? That is the test. Would we rather have the temporary pleasure of the bowel of soup over the eternal inheritance? It's a tough choice while here, but that is what makes it a stratified test. It is not a yes/no test, it's a test of gradation - to what percent did we pay attention to body influences over the spiritual ones?

That is one of the purposes of living the gospel, to give us a taste of that most precious fruit. It is outside of our comprehension. Even the lowest Kingdom of glory is beyond our comprehension. The manual "Gospel Principles" last chapter is titled "Exaltation", you can find that on LDS.org, gives a good description of "heaven" with references to scriptures including D&C section 132:19-20.

D&C 46: "11 For all have not every agift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. 12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby." What is important for one's salvation is personal and should be directed by the spirit. The bottom line is to do what the Lord asks you to do. But as warned in that chapter; " 8 Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived aseek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given; 9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign that they may consume it upon their lusts." Scripture mastery has to be done with the right purpose, to edify the saints, not for a sign or to "know" (as in secular proof or a sign) the gospel is true but to strengthen one's faith and teach others.

Thanks for sharing. Our beliefs are almost 180 degrees opposite of this idea. We believe that we are given a little stewardship here to see if we are willing and able to take on greater stewardship in the next life. The family unit is a part of God's eternal plan, not just for mortality. "Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan." (The Family: A Proclamation to the World) and "We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children." The family unit is part of the plan for happiness. It adds to our eternal happiness. It is not just a defense but provides something beyond what the individual could do for herself. Satan wanted to do it on his own, without giving credit to anyone else. The opposite is what we do. Every aspect of glory and happiness is not centered around personal achievement but our relationships, with God, Christ and those around us. The family unit is not just a mortal probation concept.

As I get older, the relationship that I have with my parents has changed. I am very close to my mother, in fact, we don't live that far away from each other and so I help her with her shopping and cleaning the house. I make sure she is ready to go to church on time, driver her there, sit with her and help her get from place to place. As she has declined over the years and despite having a PhD in literature, I have found that I have to care for her about equal hours I do with my own children. I think I have grown even closer to my mom over the past 10 years than I have the rest of the years (not giving away my age). I think if I am fortunate enough to merit the Celestial Kingdom along with my family, our relationship will be greater than mother-daughter, mother-child. It will be a closer bond than even that. And it will be that way to all those who are in the Celestial Kingdom. I can't imagine there will be someone in the "corner" that I don't know their name, their experiences, etc. Because every one of those who make it into the Celestial Kingdom love their neighbor as their self. In other words, they would have to know everyone there as they know their self. There we find 100% intimacy. Just like there is nothing hidden from God, for all those in the Celestial Kingdom, there is nothing hidden ... and they like it that way. Those who want even a piece of proprietary experience or knowledge will find their self in a lesser kingdom in a graded fashion. Family life forces intimacy and in that way it is a test to see if we like that way of life or not or to what degree. God will give us that level of intimacy with our brothers and sisters that we would like.

The purpose of families and family life for us is an opportunity to show that we have in our heart a desire to live that way forever or, for some, a chance to express that it is not really in the hearts desire to live within a family structure. I am of the opinion that we will all see each other as we did prior to coming here, which is as brothers and sisters. I don't think that relationship will change much. I remember when I was in Kindergarten or maybe it was first grade, I made a stink about not sitting next to a friend. My mom came in and spoke to the teacher and the next day I was sitting across from my friend. Maybe this reveals how old I am, but to this day I can't even remember the name of that friend. I know it happened but the details of the who and why are gone. I think it will be similar to that for those that don't see the family relationship as being very important. The desire of the heart is what dictates that over the actual situation. This life offers a chance to express the desires of our heart and for some that requires a desire to learn how to love it.

Thanks for your response. I think God's presumed ability to see the future would preclude him from having to need any feedback to make adjustments to teaching methods. But, of course, our actions determine what is taught and what is given. Just like there are some precious truths that maybe could have been given to Joseph Smith but we are just going to have to wait until we are more righteous as a whole. I am not seeing how any of that would change the possibility of finite intelligence. I think there is one premise that has to be agreed upon or argued in order for us to really affect something that God learns for the first time and that is the idea that time is linear. If time is a whole or acts like a whole then there is nothing that can change even learning. However, if there is a past, present and future as a fixed law then it is possible that the present is different from the past and the future will be different from the present. I think that premise has to be in place to allow for any "progression" of intelligence. That, of course, does not mean that viewing different times and events is not accessible. It just means that one cannot say that something is 'brought to pass' until it has passed. This is why I go back to the phrase "to bring to pass..." In other words, I do not know that something is done until it is done. I can say that it will happen but I could not say that it is done until it is actually accomplished. For example, I could say that I will die but I cannot say that "I have died" (physical separation of mortal body from spirit) at this moment. The issue is whether there is something "learned" by saying it has happened that is not possible to claim until it happens. There are many words in the gospel that imply this type of thinking. For example, inheritance. An inheritance is a potential ownership that takes place at a future time. Once inheritance is obtained it usually isn't referred to as an inheritance any more, just ownership. The words of satisfying laws and blessings predicated on obedience also imply that something has to be done in order to receive a higher state. The higher state is not reached just by saying there is a potential in the future for such things. So, the moment it is satisfied, the moment the words are spoken, 'job well done' there is a learning that the job is done, that the thing is 'brought to pass'. Even Joseph Smith gives the metaphor of climbing the ladder. Once all the truths are learned, all the secular and experiential understanding is had, the steps of the ladder may be, 'bringing to pass' righteousness. The rungs of the ladder require a linear reference, above and below the current step.

Good points. Even beyond that, I have pondered the possibility that "naming" represents a greater involvement, like the physical creation of these animals. Maybe he inserted the DNA in the bag of cells and nursed it along until it was an animal. The animals "coming to him" might be the instructions as to how the DNA coding was to be aligned. But as has already been pointed out, I probably am giving this way too much thought. Thanks for your responses.

This sounds like a silly question but why did God make the animals come to Adam so that He could see what Adam would call them? Why does God concern Himself with what Adam names them. Isn't the name God came up with good enough? When He created them spiritually, did He leave them nameless? I feel like I am missing some deeper significance to this act. Any ideas? The way it is worded so closely to "...and there was not found a help meet for him", it almost sounds like God was trying to show him every animal and have Adam realize that none of them could serve as help meet, he couldn't find one. That can't be the reason God made him name all the animals. This leads me to another question - Does our mortal name matter in the eternities? I am sure we had a name previously. If so, why would a temporary situation name, mortality, take precedence over the eternal name? Moses 3; " 19 And out of the ground I, the Lord God, formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and commanded that they should come unto Adam, to see what he would call them; and they were also living souls; for I, God, breathed into them the breath of life, and commanded that whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that should be the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, there was not found an help meet for him."

I completely agree with the process of refinement that you outline here. As it states in Gospel Principles, (paraphrasing) there is a need for us to learn by faith the principles of patience, endurance and charity. To me there is no doubt that there is a process by which those things are learned that cannot be done without being put into a position where faith is needed, mortality. However, I think the discussion was more along the lines of how God's intelligence can continue to grow. In that light, I was suggesting that even for God there is a value in the "bringing to pass". When I bake a sheet of cookies, it takes refinement, mixing and baking by heat to make it happen even though I don't have to go through any of those steps personally, I have benefited from the materials going through those steps. God does not require any further refinement although somehow He gleans glory and joy from our refinement. Therefore, the process of refinement (vicariously) allows God to have continued, perpetual, infinite increase in intelligence. It is in our doing and all that He has done to make it happen that realizes the joy. It has to actually be done, not just saying it could be done (from God's perspective). He may know exactly how the perfect batch of cookies will turn out but that is not the same as actually baking them and then learning that it is done. To me, the words "bring to pass" refers to a necessary step in the glory and eternal glory and happiness of God that cannot be passed over as if it means nothing. The point being the actual realization of the act is different than simply knowing how all things will turn out, for God. This must be an eternal principle. If not, then there is no reason for our existence because God could have had equal glory from simply saying, "I could have all these spiritual children and all their associated accomplishments if I wanted to." And there would be no added benefit in the actual carrying out of the act. Why actually do it if there is no change once it is done? God would not waste His energy that way, I do not believe in a God who does purposeless or valueless acts. The reason we need to learn faith and charity is because that is the method in which God can glean continued joy vicariously. In other words, increases in intelligence are not necessarily referring to a quantified set of facts but refers to the knowing that an advancement has been made by ones that are connected via faith and charity, loving one's neighbor as your self. In that way, anything done by someone else with that connection is added to everyone with the connection. Just like when my kindergartner learns to read, my happiness increased even though I know how to read. There was no added facts or refinement on my part other than the learning of my daughters accomplishment and that brought joy. That is magnified via the characteristics of faith and charity. The set of facts has already been learned. We spent ages upon ages learning facts before this life while in the presence of God. There is not one piece of secular information that one can learn in this life that was not already learned in the presence of God. We push forward with learning because we are learning how to learn while keeping an eye single to the glory of God. In other words, we learn new things while in mortality so that we can learn the lessons of faith, endurance, patience and charity which are tools for vicarious joy in the future.

They may not be so separated when one ponders the idea that the glory and work of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (calling attention to the words - bring to pass). There is value to God in seeing that something is accomplished more than just creating something spiritually, there is value to making it happen. He cannot know that something is completed until it is completed. At the moment of achievement or completion of one of His children, in other words, the moment they achieve immortality or eternal life, there is something learned. He has learned that that individual has achieved immortality or eternal life. Which is more than just knowing of the potential or even the future action. Appreciating this comes with understanding the phrase "to bring to pass". This life is a test of seeing if we will do the things God asks us to do. Why is there a need to test the ability of us to carry out the act over just knowing that we would do something if asked? ... maybe because there actually is value in the doing. ...maybe because God's glory is based in the 'bringing to pass'. I am happy to know my children have been baptized. There was a change in my intelligence and glory the moment my children were baptized that was added to my being the moment the act was done that wasn't there even minutes before the act was done. Two minutes before they were baptized, you could have asked me "do I know they will be baptized?" And I would have said "yes". But if you would have asked me two minutes before their baptism, "do you know that they are baptized", I would have had to say "no", even though I knew they would be in just a few minutes. What difference does it make? I am not entirely sure but I do know I felt different knowing my children have been baptized from just knowing they likely would. I am assuming God is the same way with us. ....there is value in the "bringing to pass". God is a just God and maybe this all has to do with Him being just. Justice has to be served. The law has to be satisfied. There is intelligence gained in knowing that the law has been satisfied over knowing that it will be some day. Knowing or learning of that time and time again in one eternal round is the progression related to the number of intelligences. Knowing that for each of them the law has been satisfied is a growing intelligence.