Seminarysnoozer

Not shielded or protected but transformed. We cannot see it with natural eyes, on our current state. Even if one is righteous a transformation would have to take place to see it. D&C 131; " 7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; 8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter." When are our bodies purified? Either with a transformation like what happened with Moses and Joseph Smith or when we are resurrected. But some scientist gazing into the cosmos, even with the best of technology, is not seeing with "purer eyes". Moses 1: " 5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth." and " 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him." Joseph Smith; “all things whatsoever God in his infinite wisdom has fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract, and … are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,355) Doctrine and Covenants study guide, section 137; "Such visions involve a spiritual transformation that makes the connection with earthly things far away."

There is a reason for Him being the only Begotten and I believe it pertains to this issue. Of course, I cannot be any more specific than that. The words "express image" come to mind when I think about any differences in DNA. I think that is a clue to how far off one might be from the original. It will be more similar when we are, if given in resurrection, in the express image of our Heavenly Parents. Is a Celestial being the same species as a Telestial one? All answer your question with another question - How much time took place between Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the Tree of Death and them being removed from the Garden of Eden? 5 seconds? 1 day? or millions of years?

Thanks for your comments. I agree that he knows what he is doing and makes the choice to do it still but I believe he is also ignorant to the things that we will obtain by having a body. It is difficult to assess what that entails right now because I can't relate it to my premortal fund of knowledge yet. We do know, however, that this experience advances us beyond what we could get by just being a spirit alone. Satan doesn't have that privilege. He, therefore, is ignorant to those things. What could that include? We don't know but it might be things like empathy, charity, appreciation for family etc. The soul is the body and spirit together, meaning the body adds something the spirit doesn't have by itself. Satan doesn't have that component. To me, that means that he cannot have full knowledge. He can only have the knowledge that pertains to the spirit realm as he wouldn't have any capacity for physical understanding. We have to acknowledge the advancement in understanding the physical body provides.

I think you have to include in that thought that all life is the offspring of the Fall. The Fall changed all things. How similar or how distant we are from God's "DNA" is a matter of how far one thinks we have fallen from the Fall of Adam. The degree to which we have fallen is reflected in the degree in which our Savior saves. If one thinks we did not fall far from the original creation then one would also have to believe that our Savior does not save but in the same amount. I tend to believe that the Fall caused severe, catastrophic changes in the "DNA" from the original copy. It was to the point that God almost destroyed the whole thing with a flood, that is how far off it changed. We are all modified and corrupted, starting with Adam and Eve.

You and I, I think, see knowledge differently. That may be because of our different backgrounds. I approach it from a medical science background and you from physical sciences. Knowledge, to me, is based in a set of experiences not just facts. We know things as they relate to other things. If I say, "with my last child, I had a c-section," one may understand what that is and all that comes with it but one wouldn't understand it in the same way as someone who has experienced it or has the ability to empathize with the experience at a very intimate level (i.e. - Jesus). For the same reasons, we have to come to this Earth to have this experience to be like God, the facts alone is not the same knowledge as that contained in the sum of experiences that follow partaking of the fruit from the tree of death. Before coming here we all learned all the facts, including Satan, like you said. But, that does not mean he has the same knowledge and can appreciate the consequences in the same way. We learned so many facts that we couldn't learn any more facts. There was an end to our progression without coming here. That tells us facts alone do not provide all knowledge. We know that when people follow Satan's temptations they become hardened and lose sight of truth. The process of pulling away from God is a loss. He may have at one time had knowledge but as the heart hardens and the eyes become blinded, knowledge is lost.

That is fine but the problem is that there is an attempt to quantify it in terms of mass or energy. If that is possible, no matter how small the amount, then, by definition, it is course matter and not fine matter. In other words, anything measurable in terms of physical measurement and quantification for us in our current state is not spirit matter. Our universe is not "His" universe. We do not live in God's Celestial realm right now. A transformation would have to take place for that to occur. I guess it just depends on how far one thinks we have fallen from Celestial existence to our current state. If one thinks that our current existence is almost exactly like a Celestial realm then I suppose we could hypothesize about our physical findings and theories representing Celestial forces and matter. But, I tend to believe we "fell" a very far distance that makes His realm unreachable by man. No matter how advanced our technology, our modern tower of Babel will not reach God.

If it was done how it was done many times over, I am sure the process is quite refined. Just like the problem of fitting all the species of the world on Noah's ark, I think all that God would have to do is know the DNA sequence (or RNA) of all things living and just start manufacturing the strands of DNA into primordial cells (also manufactured). Variability from the original starts with the Fall, as God only created one man and one woman before any variety occurred. All God has to do is implant "the mother of all living" DNA into those original cells. Each type could have it's own beginning original, "mother of all living" set of DNA that can give rise to the variety after the Fall (i.e. - "whose seed was in itself"). All of those primordial cells could have been prepared and the "brought forth" when the right conditions were established. (... this is all my speculation, not doctrine)

Another theory I've heard is that Satan still maintained the mindset of his arguments from the War in Heaven, which is that he could provide salvation free without any effort on our part. Maybe he really thought that the 'tree of death' could really provide all knowledge by one bite, not realizing it was just a gait to the possibility of obtaining all knowledge. Not knowing the mind of God, he thought he might get credit for telling them about it and claim the glory for instructing man. (I suppose this is kind of like your last statement but I wonder if he really understood the 'tree of life' and 'tree of death' instruction from God)

The hypothetical idea of dark energy cannot be related to spirit matter or force as it is described as an energy km/m^3. Spirit matter cannot be measured or observed in any form or fashion through physical eyes unless the physical eyes undergo some transformation to allow for such observations. By definition, anything we observe or expect to record or measure in physical terms or hope to observe through physical means (hypothetical observations) cannot be spirit matter. Also a force that causes continual disorder (entropy) does not seem to be consistent with what spiritual forces do. The Celestial Kingdom is described as one, the Telestial Kingdom is described as various as one star varies in brightness from another. Spiritual forces drive towards oneness, the opposite direction of this hypothetical dark energy force. Maybe "dark" is the appropriate adjective.

Has your father always been your father? You can say yes because before he had children he wasn't a "father". Do you have another (biological) father? No, there is only one. Will he always be your father? Yes. God is the father of all creation. He is our Heavenly Father. According to our understanding of God, He is a creator, He is our Father. These are requisite characteristics of "God". Without being a Father or a creator, He could no be a God. If one thinks our Heavenly Father was always a God then by the defining features of God all creation and all parenting always existed. If all creation always existed then how is He a creator? He would just be co-existent and not a creator. If God created this world, there was a beginning to this world (without going into the definitions of creation) then He had a beginning also as His creations define Him. Does God's glory expand? If there is expansion then there is passage of time. Genesis describes before and after events before the creation of Adam and Eve. Timelessness is a man-made concept. We know that God's glory is in 'bringing to pass...', which means there is a difference in magnitude from before to after. We also see in Jesus an increase in stature amongst God and man, not just man. Luke 2; " 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." How could anything increase with God if there is no passage of time? One could not have a purpose without the passage of time. We don't believe in a purposeless God.

To be swayed, by definition means that one has an opinion to be swayed. You are right, nobody can sway someone who doesn't want to have an opinion or whose stand is to not have an opinion one way or another. Thanks for joining the conversation just to say that you are not in the conversation. Obviously, 6000 plus views for this forum suggests a lot of people have an opinion about this topic.

Lol, maybe that is why they were told not to eat it, just chew it for a while and then spit it out (tree gum), but instead they swallowed.

Yes! And this is why I think it is important to consider the magnitude of the number of souls that die before the age of 8. Under-5 mortality in 1990 was 12.4 million (in one year!). In 2012 was 6.6 million. Put that into perspective with the fact that there were roughly 18,000 members of the church in 1890. The estimates differ, but even if we say there were 30% practicing polygamy that would be 5,400 members for that year. If the population in the world was about 1.5 billion in 1890 and at a conservative .1% under age 5 mortality, that would mean 1.5 million souls will enter the Celestial Kingdom that year alone (if I am doing my math correctly). Just for a second, picture all the souls in the Celestial Kingdom from that year alone, 1.5 million (from under 5 mortality) compared to the number of LDS living polygamy that year, 5,400. The percent involved in polygamy (even if all of them made it into the Celestial Kingdom which may be unlikely) is only 0.36% for that year only. It is an exponentially lower number as the years go by without polygamy. Putting together the fact that more males are born than female really makes the numbers thing not a valid argument at all. If anything the numbers suggest it cannot be so, unless there are a disproportionate number of unmarried men in the Celestial Kingdom. But, again, the unmarried would have to be from that less than 0.36% pool. (Traveler should be proud of me using Earthly logic to ponder this issue - just kidding!)

This is true in the sense that our physicality is different than the physicality of a resurrected being. Of the little we know, God has a physical body of flesh and bone eternally combined with His spirit but I agree it is of a plain of existence different from our current surroundings. As a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve, the whole world changed separating us physically and spiritually from God. The atonement allows for a reversal of that change, thus the returning or resurrection. We must be born again of the water and the spirit, not just the spirit alone. John 3:5 " 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

If a young adult child says to her parents, "It's time for me to find a place of my own and become an adult." The parents would not say, 'okay, once you find the place we will move in with you'. They would say something along the lines of; 'that's great that you want to learn responsibility, you should find a place on your own when you are ready but if you really want to learn responsibility then you are going to have to pay for the place on your own and take responsibility for supporting yourself. To do that we will have to have limited involvement. Of course, if you have any problems along the way we will help.' It wouldn't make sense for the young adult who wants to learn responsibility to find a place on her own and yet still live with mom and dad. There was a plan put into place that would allow for a probationary period of learning and proving our ability to have responsibility without having it be a permanent condition. Without going through the whole plan of salvation, the fall of Adam and Eve was a necessary step to allow for some responsibility and provide a way back, a Savior. As great as living with mom and dad one's whole life may sound, it is a growth stunting choice. One has to break away from mom and dad even before she becomes a perfect mom (or dad). Just like a young adult moving out of the house, there is a fall in terms of home, food, finances, etc. from what was previously enjoyed. This is done so the young adult can get back to that point herself and provide the same opportunity for the next generation. A fall from glory requires a transgression. God is just.

I appreciate your comments Traveler and I apologize if it came across as being harsh, that wasn't my intention. I think the issue is not in the content of what is being sought but the way it is sought and the attitude. I don't have the ability to judge any one person's attitude and what is in their heart. But, in general, if one chooses to deny the things that are in front of them given through the Spirit of God and asks for a sign that doesn't require spiritual insight then they will not find it. Christ overcame all. By following Christ we can overcome all as well, thus proving all things.

Well, lets see, would you rather be in the Korihor, anti-Christ camp or the man of God, Alma camp? The OP of this thread has been argued in scripture and shows us the correct response to that question; Alma 30: " 35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their hearts? 36 And Korihor answered him, Yea. 37 And then Alma said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God? 38 And he answered, Nay. 39 Now Alma said unto him: Will ye deny again that there is a God, and also deny the Christ? For behold, I say unto you, I know there is a God, and also that Christ shall come. 40 And now what evidence have ye that there is no God, or that Christ cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only. 41 But, behold, I have all things as a testimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true; and will ye deny them? Believest thou that these things are true? 42 Behold, I know that thou believest, but thou art possessed with a lying spirit, and ye have put off the Spirit of God that it may have no place in you; but the devil has power over you, and he doth carry you about, working devices that he may destroy the children of God. 43 And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a sign, that I may be convinced that there is a God, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words. 44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and call things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator. 45 And yet do ye go about, leading away the hearts of this people, testifying unto them there is no God? And yet will ye deny against all these witnesses? And he said: Yea, I will deny, except ye shall show me a sign. 46 And now it came to pass that Alma said unto him: Behold, I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart, yea, that ye will still resist the spirit of the truth, that thy soul may be destroyed." We all come to this Earth with a testimony of God, Christ and the plan of salvation, we all passed the first estate test. The only "sign" needed is to seek in self and to not deny the Spirit of God. Asking for something more is "tempting God". You know that is what I was referring to, asking for something outside of one's own testimony and the witnesses given in scriptures, prophets etc. as that was the OP. To lie to one self about one's own testimony, to deny the testimony within and then ask for some other proof is the Korihor method. To listen to the Spirit of God and seek spiritual confirmation is the Alma method. And that is what I said in my post that you are trying to turn into something else. "Seeking a sign" is not the same thing as "seek" or "ask". You know that, I know that and I am not sure why you are trying to twist it into something else. "Prove all things" is in relation to our proving to God that we are worthy. It is not what we are talking about here. "Prove all things" is explained in 1 John 4; " 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them." 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." This is the thing that we are to "prove" whether it is one that confesses there is a Christ versus those that deny Christ (the ones that speak of the world and the world hears them). i.e. - we don't need to speak of the world and use language that the world hears. Verse 6 is how one "proves all things" coupled with holding fast to the spirit of God as the scripture you gave states.

There is no need to really. Spiritual things are understood spiritually. That doesn't mean we can't talk about it but I wouldn't ponder these things with the goal to prove the existence of God. "Seeking a sign" is a sure way to not find one or at least the right one.

The other thing to consider is that the serpents lie was that in the "day" they eat the fruit their eyes would be open. This was a deceptive lie. It wouldn't be immediate. We all know that as well, it is a process to know and understand. The process starts at a certain point, after eating the fruit but it certainly isn't in a day that it occurs. The point being, we do not know how much time transpired from eating the fruit and the transformation of the body and the world in preparation for the mortal world after the fruit was eaten. Their eyes were open could certainly be related to a period of time in which they were shut, or 'asleep'. That period of time could be thousands to millions of years, we don't know. It is at that point, after their eyes are open (not necessarily in the same "day" they ate the fruit - because that was a lie) that they realized eventually that all things around them had changed, even their self, they were now naked. The Lord then explains to Moses; " 25 By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return." He explains to Moses what you are saying about us having their DNA. Our bodies are made from dust, the lifeless, soulless, dust. We do not know how long it takes for paradisical bodies and creatures to degrade and change into "dust". Maybe that process takes thousands of years. Or the other way to say it is that maybe thousands of years were taken to prepare that change. The process is spoke of in Moses 8; " 28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence. 29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth. 30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth." Another thought is that mixing of DNA could have occurred before the flood. In fact, there was too much "mixing" and that is when the Lord said enough with the flood. So, we carry some of that "dust" DNA or corrupted DNA now. This idea also plays into the need for an only begotten, a person without mixed DNA or at least a smaller portion of mixed corruption. This may be a topic for another thread, but I tend to believe that the words "express image" is a reference to how little the DNA is mixed from the original. As in Hebrews " 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person," ..." 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they." Think of the relationship between "inheritance" and DNA and being in the "express image". Sometimes "mighty" is also used to describe those that have less mixing of the DNA as in Abel and Seth, D&C; "40 Abel, the first martyr, was there, and his brother Seth, one of the mighty ones, who was in the express image of his father, Adam." When we return and upon resurrection we will have the chance to once again have His image in our countenance.

I didn't mean to say, your foundation of though, I was speaking in general. And, I admit to the limitations of my understanding, thus the conversation. We know that the work and the glory of God is to bring about the eternal life and immortality of His children. If that is the basis of His glory, at least in part, and you can agree to the idea that the Father and the Mother could have equal glory, then how is it possible that "the Father ends up with more children than the individual mothers"? Maybe our definitions of "equal partnership" as far as it relates to a Celestial marriage are different. I guess I don't comprehend the idea of an "equal partnership" as a hundredth of all if the Father had one hundred wives. If one says the wives have some kind of sharing relationship with each other, then what is the point of marriage? The wives aren't married to each other. The more I work on my own Celestial marriage the more adept I become at sharing all of my experiences with my husband and the more adept he becomes at appreciating them as well as I appreciating all of his experiences. Even the experiences that are considered role related, we share. I haven't encountered a time where my husband says, I am not going to share this experience with you, it is just for me. I can't imagine our Heavenly Father doing that either. But, like you said, that may just be my human emotional bias and not a spiritual based concept, even though being "one" with another seems far from any secular ideas I know.

This point, in my opinion, is a sexist point, and I don't get it. If one Father = 2 billion spirit babies then one Mother = 2 billion spirit babies. We know of no discrepancy between reproductive output between men and women in the afterlife. This is all based in Earthly experience and I think this is a male driven assumption. It is highly unlikely that one gender over the other would be a limiting factor in the reproductive rate. If anything, we learn that a Celestial marriage requires equal capacities, even if roles are different. In understanding all we do about the requirement to make it to the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom then "God" requires both a Heavenly Father and Mother that are one in their glory and power, and we only have one God. (i.e - one does not have a higher number than the other of 'bringing to pass the immortality and Eternal life of man') I accept the idea that whatever it is is what it is but there is no reasonable man-generated explanation for having multiple wives in the afterlife. Maybe this is my point, that sometimes we start to use man-generated arguments as if they are spiritually true and they become the foundation of thought rather than simply remaining assumptions. At the same time, I think it is a reasonable assumption to suggest that our Heavenly Mother and Father are equal in their power, glory and scope despite reverence to their individual roles in that union. In other words, whatever the Father does is our Mother's just like it is the other way too. The Mother has just as many children as the Father. (whatever the mechanism) It is unreasonable to suggest that the Mother has fewer children than the equal partnered Father.

"Knew not the mind" may also read, 'knew not the mindset'. Knowing the facts behind any situation is not the same as having a certain attitude or perspective. The poles of that mindset are sometimes described as being carnally minded versus spiritually minded. I think someone who is charitable and caring as our Father in Heaven is would be hard to understand for someone who is self centered. I often ask myself, 'why would that person act that way?' and sometimes I don't know the answer because I cannot see their perspective. One's ability to see another person's perspective is directly related to their ability to empathize. Satan, clearly has next to zero ability to empathize, whereas Christ like love, or charity is a pure form of empathy to the point of even mourning with those that mourn, etc.

Good advice! Thanks.

Where is the revelation that says that polygamy is an after mortality practice and then this whole discussion will be over. Revelation does tell us that marriage is between one man and one woman, "We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children." Adam and Eve represent that kind of marriage. What happens to the woman who is married in the temple who lives up to her covenants as best she can and would be considered worthy of an eternal marriage but her husband does not? Was the covenant that that woman made a help or a curse? Is the covenant broken for her? I would call it a help. Likewise, at certain times, women were allowed to receive the blessings and help of the everlasting covenant in their lives and the lives of their children through the practice of polygamy. But again this is just a practice for this life. A lot of people's notions about the need for polygamy surround the mechanics of procreation in this world. But, we have no idea how long a spirit child's gestation is, for example. What if having a spirit child is instantaneous, no gestational period? Then there certainly is no advantage to having multiple wives from a procreation stand point. If God is not concerned about time or lives outside of time (as some suggest) then it wouldn't matter if God would have to wait 9 months, 9 seconds or 9 thousand years to have a spirit child. Then, again there would be no advantage to having multiple wives. It also isn't a matter of having multiple wives to take care of multiple children as we all know that we have one Father and we were all had intimate relationships with him before this life. The same could be said with us all having one Mother. There really is no need for polygamy, even imagined, in the next life. Maybe I am spiritually blind to this matter but I cannot find a need to be "fixed".

That was my point, to try to fill that "hole". Physical death is described as the separation of a spirit being from its mortal body. Here is the predicated matter; Can there exist organic material without an associated spirit entity? (Note I didn't ask about matter that hasn't been created spiritually first or associated with "spirit") Does a rock have a spirit entity associated with it? What if I break it in half, are there now two spirit entities associated with two rocks now? If I donate a kidney, while it is sitting in the cooler ready for transplant into another human being, is it associated with a spirit? Or would you call it dead? If the kidney dies before it is transplanted, while it is in the cooler, is it dead or still alive because I am alive? When did it die? What if I die but the transplanted kidney stays alive in someone else? Is the kidney dead or alive and is it still associated with my spirit? If one says the kidney died at the moment it was taken from my body, then one believes there can be live organic material without a spirit. What if I take cells from someone, like a cheek swab, or skin cells and culture them, grow them and then the person dies but the cells are still alive? Are the cells alive with or without a spirit entity? If there is sperm and egg donation for in vitro fertilization, are there individual spirits associated with each of those gametes? Or are the spirits associated with those cells the ones that belong to the donors? What if the donor dies but the gametes remain alive? When a person dies and the body lies in the ground, is that material connected with any spirit? Or is it spiritless material? Is it associated with a spirit entity or the same kind of spirit one would say is associated with a rock? (which, to me, is spirit that is not of the entity variety) If there is no spirit entity or being associated with the physical matter then there cannot be death according to the definition, just like a rock cannot die but may still be associated with spirit matter. The organic material could die but there would be no death until spirit entities become associated with specific physical entities. If it is possible to have live organic material without a spirit entity (the predicated matter). Then it would be possible to have evidence of organic tissue death without having the kind of death that we talk about when a spirit entity leaves it's assigned mortal body.