Seminarysnoozer

Yes, this is where you and I disagree. Spiritual death is not synonymous with spiritual corruption or spiritually fallen and also is not the same as being "spiritually dead". Let me try to be a little more clear, spiritual death is not the same thing as being spiritually dead. How is that possible? It is through Christ, the light of Christ. We separate from God, spiritual death, but never die spiritually because we have a life line, the light of Christ. Unless one willfully ignores the light of Christ they are still alive spiritually. We die spiritually by being separated from God but children receive a special protection remaining pure and spiritually alive before the age of accountability as well as being born with the light of Christ. In other words, we are all kept alive by the the light of Christ. If the light of Christ is completely gone then a person is spiritually dead. D&C 88; " 13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things." D&C 88; " 18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory; 19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father; 20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified. 21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom. 22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory." If you look at the footnote for "unrighteousness" in verse 18 it takes you to; Moses 8; "28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence. 29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth. 30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth." The sanctification of the corrupted body is through resurrection, which Christ most certainly did. It is available by obeying the law of Christ, which also Christ did, He was baptized etc. for a reason. By the spirit we are justified and by the blood we are sanctified. Sanctification refers to the process of the body becoming pure and putting off its fleshy corruption. Moses 6; " 59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; 60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;" In that way, everyone who takes on a mortal body needs sanctification. Spiritual sanctification refers to being made clean from sin through the process of repentance. Again, children don't experience sin and therefore there is no need for spiritual sanctification. Are children sanctified through the atonement of Christ? Yes, because their corrupted bodies become clean resurrected bodies through the blood of Christ and being already justified by the spirit they remain born of the spirit - never separating from the light of Christ, not needing baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. --- 2 Nephi : " 11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility." There are two opposing bodies, the physical body (the natural man) and the spirit body (our spirit that starts with the light of Christ) while in this life. If the spirit is corrupted and the body is corrupted then there is no life as it is if they are one, they are dead. There is opposition in all things while in this world and the opposition to our spiritual purity in which we enter this world can affect our spiritual well being when made accountable at the age of accountability. If the spirit gives into the physical drives we can become spiritually dead.

2 Corinthians 12; " 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." ...knowing we all have "thorns" in the flesh.

This is maybe a topic for another thread but I know it has already been discussed; just because someone can see all time doesn't mean it is "meaningless". God's work and glory is in the "bringing to pass", which requires the passing of time. There is something that isn't known until it happens, one cannot know that a job is well done until it is done. One can know that it will be done but that obviously is not the same as God's glory and work is in the realization of the event and not just the potential or creating something spiritually without carrying it out. In other words, there is more value to God in the eternal life of any man after it is done compared to before it is done even if He knows it will happen. At least, that is how I interpret the phrase "to bring to pass" as it relates to God's work and glory. The first estate test may have been enough if it was enough to say we would obey without actually having to do it. We are here, so carrying it out, passing the time, is meaningful to God and us.

You are wrong in thinking that in order to be sanctified one has to be corrupt. I don't disagree with your interpretation of sanctified as it pertains to the physical body and children. I think your hang up is again you have a hard time separating the issue that we are dual beings. Children never experience a spiritual fall at the same time they receive a corrupted body. How is that? Because we are dual beings. But we are not our mortal body. This is a temporary state in which Jesus has overcome it's corrupt nature for everyone. As it pertains to children and all of us before the age of accountability, you have to separate the two aspects of our being, the physical and spiritual. Children are not spiritually tainted by the corrupt aspect of the physical body - see Article of Faith #2. And Jesus has overcome the physical corruption through the atonement for all of us. Therefore, the spirits of children are never corrupted. Their mortal body is but they are not spiritually. I think you are not willing to separate the dual nature of our being while here on Earth. Who we really are pertains to our spirit self, children of God as we are temporarily children of man. Some people in this life choose to make the corrupted self their hearts desire (i.e. - sin) and then their spirit is tainted with sin and they need to repent and be redeemed of their sin in order to return to God. That is not the case with children. The mortal body is not one's permanent self any more than one who has Down's syndrome will remain in that state forever. Jesus was asked, who sinned the blind man or his parents? What was Jesus answer? How can the blind man have a corrupt body when nobody sinned to make it that way? We all have to pass through these steps, even Jesus. Was Jesus sanctified? So you think Bruce R. McConkie's statement, " They come from God in purity; no sin or taint attaches to them in this life; and they return in purity to their Maker." is false? Do you think his statement; "Those who are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced. " is false?

The only word that differs between what you and I are saying is the word "made" and I would say "remain". It is because of the atonement of Christ that their fallen spirits remain clean and pure. "Our goal", yes. Because you and I have lived past the age of 8. Jesus Christ atonement protects children from the effects of the Fall. His atonement doesn't allow the effects of the Fall to affect the spirits of children. Otherwise, children would remain in the awful corrupted state of having the effects of the Fall. Tell me at what point exactly are children corrupted? Because of the atonement of Christ, they NEVER are corrupted. Moroni 8:12 " 12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!" It is a false doctrine to teach that little children were ever corrupted. Moroni 8: " 8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me. 9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children." I never said it wasn't through the atonement of Christ. It is through the atonement of Christ, their spirits remain clean and are immune from the effects of the Fall. They never experience the corrupting effects from the Fall. What Moroni said is the true doctrine. Little children never put on the "natural man". Once we reach the age of accountability then the effects of the Fall are upon us, not before. Mosiah 3; " 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. 20 And moreover, I say unto you, that the time shall come when the knowledge of a Savior shall spread throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. 21 And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent." Little children are our example because they remain innocent, as their spirits remain innocent and without guile from the foundations of the World (meaning before this world even began). Jesus Christ explains; " 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." I think I would ere on the side of saying that children are not corrupted, we wouldn't want to offend any of these little ones by saying that they are corrupted. And please don't think this is my teaching, this is the teaching in the scriptures and from the apostles. From an Apostle of the Lord; Bruce R. McConkie; "How and why are they saved? They are saved through the atonement and because they are free from sin. They come from God in purity; no sin or taint attaches to them in this life; and they return in purity to their Maker. Accountable persons must become pure through repentance and baptism and obedience. Those who are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced. Hence the expression that little children are alive in Christ. “Little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten,” the Lord says. (D&C 29:46.)" Bruce R. McConkie says it pretty clearly; "Those that are not accountable for sins never fall spiritually and need not be redeemed from a spiritual fall which they never experienced." THEY NEVER EXPERIENCED A SPIRITUAL FALL! I think you need to think about what it means to spiritually fall, it means to be accountable for sin. We were not born with original sin. That is a false doctrine.

No, I agree. It, to me, is what allows for our spirits to drift away from its starting point of purity. But, as children remain pure, like their starting point, the source of that drift comes from the corruption we are exposed to here and one's choice in following it or not. If it were spiritual death alone then the spirits of children would have died corrupted. Whether one points their tent towards Sodom or the Temple is based in their spirit's direction, I will give you that. But, Sodom had to be presented as a choice and the physical body facilitates that with its passions and drives, "the natural man". Our goal in this life is to remain pure as we started, like children and to not let carnal influences change our heart's desire. Our inheritance is something we come into this world owning fully and it is ours to lose. I think this is why the War in Heaven was such a tough one. The argument on the other side was, 'why take a risk in losing something we already had?' But those people didn't appreciate or desire putting in the effort it would take to overcome these carnal influences and to show how much we really love our spiritual heritage. The didn't appreciate the value of knowing good and evil. Elder Bednar April 2013 Conference; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test."

I think it is important to keep in mind that we all passed the first estate test and we all (essentially - save the sons of perdition) will receive a state of glory that far surpasses our understanding. As such, our spirit self, is heir to the Kingdom of God in some capacity. We enter this life pure and innocent and as heirs to the Kingdom, with promised eternal glory. This does not sound corrupted at all to me. Even the Telestial Kingdom is a Kingdom of glory. The spirit can take on the aspects of this corruption over the course of our lives. Where our treasure is there will also be our heart. If we love the corruption, the things of this world, including the passions of the body, then we put our treasures in things that are not eternal and that will remain with us in spirit. I am not saying the spirit cannot become corrupted but that the corruption was introduced by being born into a fallen world, by becoming carnal, by being separated from our Heavenly Father. Children remain in a similar state to how we were before and that should be a description to you and me what the spirit provides. Even Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence, even when they had choice until they received a fallen body. The resurrection, as you stated removes all aspects of the fall and therefore removes the corruption. There are many scriptures that say that. Mormon says it well; " 21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you." Our bodies become incorruptible and then we are judged. The righteous and the unrighteous having bodies "moldering in corruption" will put on immortality and be free from the corruption and then we will be judged by our works. Some more valiant than others in the second estate but all faithful in the first. D&C 76; " 81 And again, we asaw the glory of the btelestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the cglory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. 83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. 84 These are they who are thrust down to hell. 85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. 86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;" ** the spirits that go to Hell are redeemed via the resurrection, not until the last one but still the same, redeemed. The corruption will be gone by the end of the resurrection (the receiving of a glorified body). Christ will overcome all!!! And they become glorious enough to be ministered to by the Holy Ghost, something that we find very difficult to maintain here in this life.

Please tell me what I am confusing. I am not following what I think you are trying to say here. I know there is a difference, but how do you think I am confused about their differences? Baptism, an ordinance of the priesthood, is a covenant in which we agree to keep the commandments. They are different parts but related. What am I confusing?

It is not fair for you to call it a "straw man" just because your understanding of the sealing power is different than mine. In fact, you are using "straw man" technique here by saying that I was relating every act and commandment to priesthood ordinances, which I did no such thing. I gave examples of other priesthood ordinances and "everlasting covenants" as the circumcision was called by those that had been given the sealing power. Did Abraham have the sealing power or not? The sealing power relates to the binding effect of covenants with God to endure not only here but in the next life. In other words, the contract is still valid in the next life. How and where the contract is satisfied is up to God. The sealing power simply are the keys to make it valid into the next life that the types of relationships can continue in the next life, the family relationships. The sealing power has to do with all the priesthood ordinances needed to reach exaltation from baptism on. D&C 132; "7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead." If you want to say that Abraham performed the circumcision without sealing power and it will have "no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead" then I guess I did present a straw man argument. Even without that example, I have given the example of a spouse who has undergone the marriage sealing under the sealing powers given to the few that hold it in the temple but one spouse later becomes unfaithful. If the way that you are interpreting "marriage sealing" is correct, then that would mean that that "marriage sealing" is no invalid to even the one who remains faithful because you are trying to say that the "marriage sealing" is only to a specific person. And so that faithful person falls short of exaltation or they don't and it is somehow rectified and remains a valid contract extending after death. We can't have it both ways. Either the "marriage sealing" is only person specific or there can be exceptions to the specificity of the person depending on circumstances because the contract is with the Lord and He can fulfill it. The sealing power as it pertains to marriage is the contract made in this life to enjoy family relationships in the next. It is not broken if the fulfillment of the contract with the person results in the person enjoying family relationships in the next life, irregardless of the specificity of the person. That is my understanding of the sealing power, so don't call it a "straw man" just because we may have different views of the effect of the sealing power. I have not made any arguments that the sealing between parent-child is the same as between husband-wife. That is your interpretation of what I explained above, that the sealing power to make those things happen in the next life is done under the same power, the sealing power. In that sense they are similar, just like the sealing power is used to make the effect of baptism last. I also think that people over interpret the word "bind" as if it means to lock in place. That is not the meaning. It simply means to endorse, like the seal placed on an envelope binds closed an official document ... until it is opened. Boyd K. Packer explained; "The word seal, used in that context, becomes synonymous for endorse or confirm, to license, to favor, to ratify, to accredit, to authorize, to advocate, and to bind." Something that is "bound" by the sealing power simply means it was done with spiritual authority and holds validity in the next life. It does not mean, locked in place, or unchangeable or unable to fulfill in any other way than the way stated. That is an emotional interpretation based in wanting to posses something or someone individually and exclusively. (and that is why I spoke of stewardship, but I guess I took it too far) LDS.org; "In the Church we hold sufficient authority to perform all of the ordinances necessary to redeem and to exalt the whole human family. And, because we have the keys to the sealing power, what we bind in proper order here will be bound in heaven. Those keys—the keys to seal and bind on earth, and have it bound in heaven—represent the consummate gift from our God. With that authority we can baptize and bless, we can endow and seal, and the Lord will honor our commitments. The Prophet Joseph Smith said he was frequently asked the question, “‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances, etc?’ I would answer, No, not the fullness of salvation. Jesus said, ‘There are many mansions in my Father’s house, and I will go and prepare a place for you.’ House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too” (History of the Church, 6:184)."

The debate from a numbers standpoint isn't just will there be enough but more along the lines of the number would have to be infinite or exponentially related. If two wives is better than one, then doesn't it reason to say that three is better than two? This can go on and on to say that an infinite number of wives is better. There would be an exponential relationship. How can more than one male both have an infinite number of wives? At some point the exponential relationship becomes unreal and unimaginable. I realize we have limited vision of the eternities but still it is hard to imagine that there would be infinite supplies of women available for each worthy man. One would have to imagine worlds created in which there are million to one ratios or higher of women to men. Or worlds in which there are only women, which cannot be the case. If an infinite number of wives is better than one then why wouldn't God marry all the wives? There is nobody left in that scenario for you guys, sorry. If one says, well a certain number of wives is better but not infinite, then that would detract from any idea that two is better than one, that there is some value added from each wife. X+1 > X, would have to always be true even when X is equal to the total number of souls lived in this world. It is not a sustainable ideal to my mind - realizing that may be the problem.

I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of relating it to covenants given via prophets for a certain era. Thanks. Abraham's covenant with the Lord related to his seed and posterity included the covenant of circumcision. As stated previously, it is not just sacrifice but the temporal assistance and opportunity in expanding the test that comes from the Lord while living by the covenant in this probationary life. I look at this life as a second estate test in which if we are good stewards with what we are given then we will be given more and placed in a position to receive more in the next life. It is kind of like a college entrance exam. Just because the test may include some situation on the exam like "John and Jane are traveling in a train going 70 mph heading east ..." doesn't necessarily mean that one is going to encounter John and Jane traveling on a train going 70 mph heading east in real life. It is just an exam. Just because my father is my father in this life doesn't mean he is older than me spiritually. Just because my cousin has Down's syndrome doesn't mean she will have Down's in the next life or had it before. All of our stewardship here is part of our probationary second estate test. As it states in the scriptures we should not claim ownership. We do not want to be unjust stewards. God will reward us plentifully for each success and according to each principle learned and achieved. The teaching of "marriage sealing" made available in this life to a sister who may not have otherwise had the opportunity to take that part of the "exam" and she passes it well will be given the reward associated with passing that part of the exam. In other words, in the same light that a person given the challenge of any situation in this test, like Paul's "thorn in the flesh" will not necessarily have it for the eternities but be rewarded with something greater for his or her endurance; likewise a sister that was second or fifth wife to an eternal marriage lived faithfully will be equally rewarded in the next for being faithful. We are given small stewardship in this life (not ownership) to show our worthiness for greater things in the next life. Those that are low shall be made high.

You are the one who clumped them together with this statement; "the morals, covenants and commandments of G-d stand eternal", not me.

The natural man is not just "physical" but corrupted, fallen physical. Which doesn't allow one to add to that definition someone who is a Celestial being with "physical" properties or someone who has been translated or transfigured temporarily. I agree that there are spirit beings that are the enemy to God that do not have a physical body. But that description does not apply to any of us born into this world because we all passed the first estate test. We were pure and innocent before coming here, every one of us. So, again, we are just referring to beings who were born into a fallen body while they remain in that state. And I don't take it to mean something that is an all or nothing state. Again, I believe in the way David O. Mckay and Elder Bednar explained it, that we are dual beings. If the body is just a covering to the spirit then we are not really "dual" beings, we would not have two natures. We would have only one nature that may be modified by the covering but it is still one nature. We are not that way currently. We are dual beings with dual natures. I know we don't talk about that issue strongly in church meetings etc. but there are several that have, namely Paul, David O. Mckay and Elder Bednar. Are we just a single nature being that is suppressed or modified by the body? Or do we truly have two natures, making us a dual being. David O. McKay is pretty clear about these two natures and how they oppose each other; "Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual. Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body." and "Life is a test to see which of our two natures we will follow and develop. Man’s earthly existence is but a test as to whether he will concentrate his efforts, his mind, his soul, upon things which contribute to the comfort and gratification of his physical nature, or whether he will make as his life’s pursuit the acquisition of spiritual qualities." Ensign July 2006; "President David O. McKay (1873–1970) taught that because of the Fall we have a dual nature: “One, related to the earthly or animal life; the other, akin to the Divine. Whether a man remains satisfied within what we designate the animal world, satisfied with what the animal world will give him, yielding without effort to the whims of his appetites and passions and slipping farther and farther into the realm of indulgence, or whether, through self-mastery, he rises toward intellectual, moral, and spiritual enjoyments depends upon the kind of choice he makes every day, nay, every hour of his life.” 1 Our spirits come from the presence of God, and “every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning” (D&C 93:38). Our physical bodies are also gifts from God. One reason we wanted to come to this earth was to become more like our Heavenly Father, who has a physical body. Consequently, one of our challenges in mortality is to learn how to manage, care for, and use our bodies properly. If we can govern the natural tendencies of the flesh, we will rise toward the kind of spiritual life President McKay described. But if we let “the natural man” govern, we will find ourselves at enmity with God and His purposes (see Mosiah 3:19)." The "natural man" is contrasted with the "spirit of man" that was innocent in the beginning and the "natural man" tendency is as a result of coming to earth and obtaining a physical body. It is pretty clearly described where the "natural man" tendencies come from.

What about the 6.6 million children that died under the age of 5 in 2012. Just start with those. Will all of them live polygamy in the next life? Or how about the 12.4 million children who died under the age of 5 in 1990? Do the boys in that group get two or ten wives each? If there truly is an added value of some kind to having more than one wife in the next life, then why wouldn't the boy who died before the age of 8, who didn't have the opportunity to marry be given 1 million wives, or 10 billion wives? Why would there be some kind of limit? What about the faithful man who lives at a time when polygamy is not allowed because of the laws of the land. You believe that the opportunity would be given to fix that issue? If, so, then why wouldn't every faithful man be given millions of wives, not just one or two more? Or does the added value start to taper off once the number approaches infinity? So, back to the first question, what about those 6.6 million that died under the age of 5 in 2012? How many wives will those boys be offered? I know you can't tell me but do you think it is more than one? The problem is at a certain number of wives for each boy that died before the age of 8 there would not be enough women that lived in this world to support any higher ratio without somehow finding women from somewhere else.

Great question! Because, as with all covenants, there are temporal blessings available where one has a special relationship with the Lord that is otherwise not there. And, yes, the temporal blessings can translate into eternal blessings. If God has it, then anything we can do to experience even a small part of what He has will advance our appreciation and understanding of what He has to offer us when we receive our inheritance. Where much is given much is required. And if we are good stewards over small things then we will be given greater stewardship in the life to come. There is a responsibility and blessings that come from living that responsibility of an "eternal" relationship. If a person gets married in the temple and their spouse fails to stay faithful and even leaves the person, is there any benefit for the faithful individual to continue to live by eternal marriage standards? Why should they if they are obviously not going to be "sealed" to that person? Will the benefits of a "marriage sealing" covenant be taken away from that person? ... only if they fail to remain faithful as the covenant is between that person and the Lord and that cannot be broken only except with the individual failing to live by their obligation. Mosiah 2; " 17 And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God." All the women and men who faithfully lived the commandment of polygamy, by definition, did it to serve God, not for some personal advancement or promise for higher reward. Their expectations for some higher reward will not be shattered if they really were in the service of their God. I can say for a certainty that any man in the next life who has lived faithful polygamy in this life and, if it be true, ends up with only one wife in the next life, will not feel the loss as it was done in this life as any faithful steward would do - realizing that this life is a stewardship, not ownership. The blessings for being a faithful steward will not be forgotten or lost. Definition of steward (one of them); a person assigned to manage or look over another person's property or responsibility.

Could you explain further what you mean by this statement. How does the commandment of circumcision or animal sacrifice stand eternal? Are you just saying that the blessings that come from the obedience to the commandments stand eternal or that the commandment will have to be lived and performed eternally? If your statement does not include, necessarily, living by the law or commandment eternally as part of the "stand eternal" statement then this is an important distinction made when discussing other laws and commandments such as polygamy.

Because death is not the end of the second estate test. It extends into the spirit prison where those spirits are their given the opportunity to choose. The interesting question would be; are spirits in Paradise given opportunity to choose? or are they really in the Lord's rest? Children that die before the age of 8 go to Paradise. I guess it is a distinction between what happens in Paradise vs. Spirit Prison. LDS.org; "Spirit Prison The Apostle Peter referred to the postmortal spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise." That doesn't sound like children who die before the age of 8 would be there and therefore ordinances performed in the temple for them are not something they would have to accept or not accept. Alma 40; " 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow." Bruce R. McConkie; "Will children ever be tested? Absolutely not! Any idea that they will be tested in paradise or during the millennium or after the millennium is pure fantasy. Why would a resurrected being, who has already come forth from the grave with a celestial body and whose salvation is guaranteed, be tested? Would the Lord test someone who cannot fail the test and whose exaltation is guaranteed? For that matter, all those billions of people who will be born during the millennium, when Satan is bound, “shall grow up without sin unto salvation” (D&C 45:58) and therefore will not be tested. “Satan cannot tempt little children in this life, nor in the spirit world, nor after their resurrection. Little children who die before reaching the years of accountability will not be tempted.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:56–57.) Such is the emphatic language of President Joseph Fielding Smith."

Read my lines carefully, I said marriage sealing, as it is called on lds.org. The sealing of child to parent is different, as you have already stated and you stated that the "sealing" is not an ordinance but a power. You are going back and forth. I was only referring to "marriage sealing". Again, "when that is revealed, we will do this work" could also be said for those polygamy marriages, why not? Lets just say it could, for hypothetical argument sake - then the "seal" of the marriage is not broken as the promises pertaining to the covenant of "marriage sealing" still is provided just like when a wife is sealed in the temple and their husband becomes unfaithful, the wife can still enjoy the blessings that comes from her faithfulness, as it will be "revealed" and "we will do this work". Your argument that you can't break the "sealing" is then invalid, it wouldn't be broken. Recall, as it is stated on LDS.org, that the "marriage sealing" (not to be confused with sealing power) is a covenant between the person and the Lord. Certainly, the Lord has the power to keep the covenant blessings and promises in the way He can and in the right time. The polygamy marriage allowed those sisters and their children to obtain the temporal benefits of that covenant during their mortal life, irregardless of the eternal arrangement or satisfying of that "sealing". One of the main reasons to do work for the dead is so they have an opportunity to accept the ordinance or not. In the case of children that die before the age of 8, they do not need the opportunity to choose or not, their salvation is automatic. That is the reason we do not perform saving ordinances for them.

Regarding the issue of sealing we may have to agree to disagree. I tend to believe that what is bound in heaven from what is sealed and bound here on Earth pertains to all the blessings that are associated with such an arrangement and will hardly matter as to the exact person. When we all arrive in the Celestial Kingdom at the highest level and over the eternities, one Celestial diety would hardly differ from another as we ever approach becoming like God. Again, the "marriage sealing" specifically is an agreement with the Lord. And yes, that agreement with the Lord would remain and not be taken away even if the person would be set up with another worthy individual. The "sealing" is not broken. (that is what I am suggesting you have a closed mind about) Just like the "sealing" is not broken if a person were to marry in the temple who spouse later became unworthy of such a blessing. You agreed to that arrangement not causing a break in the seal. What's the difference between that and a second or third wife in a polygamous marriage being placed with a worthy individual during the millennium or whenever that would happen? In a Celestial Marriage, especially a sealed one, all is shared between the couple (which you may disagree with that I suppose). If there are two such arrangements between a husband and more than one wife, then by definition there is something the husband has that the wife does not unless one wants to go as far as saying one wife is sealed to the other wife which is a whole other can of worms. We do not believe in a woman being in a "marriage sealing" arrangement with another woman so the two "sealings" would have to remain separate. In the case of the past relative, you are suggesting that judgement would take place before the final judgement in time to make such arrangements? Whatever blessing comes from mortal righteousness will have to come before the end of the second estate test (which is to say mortality - the all inclusive mortality from spiritual death to resurrection and final judgement.). I agree. But, you have to couch the D&C verses you quoted with the fact that those are commandments for mortality and for people that can abide by those commandments. Again Bruce R. McConkie; "Are all little children saved automatically in the celestial kingdom? To this question the answer is a thunderous yes, which echoes and re-echoes from one end of heaven to the other. Jesus taught it to his disciples. Mormon said it over and over again. Many of the prophets have spoken about it, and it is implicit in the whole plan of salvation. If it were not so the redemption would not be infinite in its application. And so, as we would expect, Joseph Smith’s Vision of the Celestial Kingdom contains this statement: “And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.” (D&C 137:10)" Meaning all the saving ordinances are done automatically, including marriage sealing. Do we do baptism for the dead for infants? Do we do marriage sealings for infants? ...for the same reasons we don't do baptisms for the dead for them. It would be a mockery.

What sealing ordinance (marriage sealing) is done for those millions that die before the age of 8 and to whom do they get sealed to? This is even a way bigger issue in comparison to the few that fall under the category of polygamy. Bruce R. McConkie ; "Will children be married and live in the family unit? Certainly. There can be no question about this. If they gain salvation, which is eternal life, which is exaltation, it means that they are married and live in the family unit. President Joseph Fielding Smith has so stated in plain words, and it is something that must necessarily be so. (See Doctrines of Salvation, 2:49–57.)" You said; "The reason sealings remain in place even in the case of women is so that it can be worked out without doing extra sealing work." Why can't that be applied to women who were sealed in a polygamous marriage?

You are confused; I didn't use the words "sealing power" I just used the word sealing. As it is used on the website LDS.org here; "In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord." According to LDS.org, the "marriage sealing" is a saving ordinance in which "we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord." If it is a saving ordinance, let me ask you this; why would a man need to perform a saving ordinance more than once? Any more than he would need to be baptized more than once? We do believe in vicarious ordinances, keep that in mind. I think you are being very closed minded about the blessings that came from polygamy. It allowed sisters and their future children to benefit from the covenent while here on Earth. Covenants are to help us here for their far reaching effects into the next life. The covenant is to allow the Lord to help us. LDS.org "A covenant is a sacred agreement between God and a person or group of people. God sets specific conditions, and He promises to bless us as we obey those conditions." All who enter into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, by definition, will be sealed to each other, through the sealing of parent to child and back all the way to Adam and Eve. If all that is required is one marriage sealing and we will all be sealed to each other, there is nothing gained by being "sealed" to a second wife for the man who had righteously lived polygamy here in this life. If it is a principle carried over to the next life and not just a commandment for a certain period of time and not the standard as is said by LDS.org ("The standard doctrine of the Church is monogamy, as it always has been, as indicated in the Book of Mormon (Jacob chapter 2)") then all who find their self in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will be practicing it, not just some. If the highest glory is obtained by such a practice, then the child who dies before the age of 8 will have it and yet the child was never married in this life. When will those marriages take place that you insist "All marriages must and will be done in this life." take place? Are you trying to say then that all the children that died before the age of accounability, millions and millions, will have to be matched up and the marriage for them will have to take place in this life? For the 4 million plus boys that died before the age of 5 in 2012, where are the 8 million girls (assuming they will marry more than one)? 4 million could be from the same year but now we are short 4 million women just in one year. The women who participated in plural marriage will not lose the benefits of their covenant with the Lord from their marriage sealing any more than one who has received such a blessing via vicarious work. If I vicariously marry my great great great great grandparents and only one of them is accepting, will that person receive the benefits of that covenant or not? If yes, you are going to have to agree that a marriage will be arranged.

The key issue is recognizing our nothingness, as Moses put it, and therefore relying on the Lord for our guidance. That, to me, suggests that our thoughts and drives are mostly carnal in nature. The spiritual influences tend to be described as small and quiet and take a great deal of effort to discern and receive. Again, I think the place I am at on that gradient varies from moment to moment reflected in whether I am spiritually in tune or not as I would assume it does with everyone. Understanding our dual being nature, both physical and spiritual, as both Elder Bednar and President Mckay have discussed, both natures are active at the same time. We are never just one or the other, so it is a gradient, not either/or. The way that spiritual influences tend to be transmitted is a feeling but difficult to describe. This is one way to assist in distinguishing those influences. D&C 9; " 7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. 9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me." There is thought (as in "you took no though save it was to ask me") and then there is thought combined with a feeling (as in "study in your mind" and "your bosom shall burn within you") but there is never a feeling without a thought (meaning spiritual influences without the carnal) unless a person is out of body or translated temporarily such as Moses experience or Joseph Smith. How do you see it?

They do have meaning even if not continued as such in the next life. The covenant part of the sealing is between the person and God. Think about what happens if one person is faithful to their covenant and the other is not. Will they still be married in the next life and will the one who is faithful receive all the blessings that come with that covenant? Who would they be married to if the one was not faithful? Why is it that previous temple marriages (for example, an ex-wife for a man who is married again in the temple) are still listed in the record even if there were no children? It is because the sealing still has meaning for the ex-wife; the blessings that pertain to that covenant are still available to the ex-wife if she is found worthy. She will be matched with someone who is equally worthy. Just like all those that faithfully practiced polygamy when it was commanded will receive a fullness of those blessings, however it will be arranged for. This will not be an uncommon thing as one thinks about all the marriages what will have to take place for those that die before the age of 8 (6.6 million died under 5 in 2012)

About what topic and when? It varies from moment to moment and from topic to topic. But I would say that most of my thoughts and reactions are based in the natural man. The spirit is under the effects of the veil. How much do you remember of your spiritual training before this life? It is enough of an influence that God can use that to judge our character, whatever that amount is. It doesn't have to be a lot. And if not actively sought a person drifts back into the "natural man" state. It is the thing for which we have to endure. Like Jesus put it; " 40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Even when the spirit is willing, for even an apostle in the presence of Jesus, they could only hold out one hour before the natural man took over again. This happened several times. That is how strong the natural man influence is.

The house is full of adopted members, nothing would be disbanded.