Seminarysnoozer

In this life we remain as separate entities. Yes, the goal is to be integrated but in our current condition that is not the case. Elder Melvin J. Ballard (1873–1939) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “all the assaults that the enemy of our souls will make to capture us will be through the flesh, because it is made up of the unredeemed earth, and he has power over the elements of the earth. The approach he makes to us will be through the lusts, the appetites, the ambitions of the flesh. All the help that comes to us from the Lord to aid us in this struggle will come to us through the spirit that dwells within this mortal body. So these two mighty forces are operating upon us through these two channels." Two channels = not as integrated as we would like. We know God is a being of both flesh and spirit. The priesthood is the power to act in Gods name. For that power to pass to one that does not have a body yet, means that at some point in the chain of authority it had to be passed from one who has a body (God) to one who does not have a body (like Michael). If he was called of God, which you stated, God having a body, why do you say that he was not called by the physical laying on of hands? How do you know that?

I think it is important to keep in mind that the scriptures use symbolism to convey the lesson but there are clues to help us better understand some of those symbols. For example, in Acts 19: " 11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them." Here, words like "hands", "from his body", "handkerchiefs or aprons" pertain to the cleanliness of the body from which the "diseases" or "evil spirits" departed from them. Also, how we interact with the spirit is not necessarily the same way that evil spirits interact with us. I think that is specified in Moses 4: " 21 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." I realize this is talking about Jesus but I think it specifies when we act in His name, we can bruise Satan's head where he can only bruise our heel. I believe the deeper meaning of this is that Satan only has power over carnal things and not spirit and that the head is higher in importance than the heel. In other words, how Satan is able to influence is different than how the spirit of God influences. They are not done in the same way. David O. McKay explains how this enmity relates to each of us; "Our spirits come from the presence of God, and “every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning” (D&C 93:38). Our physical bodies are also gifts from God. One reason we wanted to come to this earth was to become more like our Heavenly Father, who has a physical body. Consequently, one of our challenges in mortality is to learn how to manage, care for, and use our bodies properly. If we can govern the natural tendencies of the flesh, we will rise toward the kind of spiritual life President McKay described. But if we let “the natural man” govern, we will find ourselves at enmity with God and His purposes (see Mosiah 3:19)." Elder Ballard explains that the battle from Satan occurs through the flesh, not a spirit to spirit battle; "Elder Melvin J. Ballard (1873–1939) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught that “all the assaults that the enemy of our souls will make to capture us will be through the flesh, because it is made up of the unredeemed earth, and he has power over the elements of the earth. The approach he makes to us will be through the lusts, the appetites, the ambitions of the flesh. All the help that comes to us from the Lord to aid us in this struggle will come to us through the spirit that dwells within this mortal body. So these two mighty forces are operating upon us through these two channels."

Specifically, of course, we don't know. Prion diseases can be passed from animals to humans, think of mad-cow disease. Kuru, which is a form of prion disease, is caused by eating the brains of someone who had prion disease. The demon possessed individual in Matthew 8, had just come out of the tombs. Who knows what he was doing in there. Cysticercosis (pork tapeworm) is passed from swine (undercooked pork) to humans and one can have hundreds of the larva settle in the brain causing various symptoms depending on the location including cognitive changes. There are various viruses that are passed from animal to human, think of swine flu, or bird flu, etc. Hog flu can hit the kidneys and cause uremia, which can cause confusion, encephalopathy. Also, think of what rabies can do. It isn't an impossibility. But we don't know the specifics.

Charles Whitman said, ""I do not really understand myself these days. I am supposed to be an average reasonable and intelligent young man. However, lately (I cannot recall when it started) I have been a victim of many unusual and irrational thoughts." He is the mass murderer, in 1966 killed 14 people and later found to have a glioblastoma pressing on areas of the brain that regulate strong emotions. Could his situation not be called "possession" by an "evil spirit"? The Bible certainly wouldn't describe his story as a person who had a tumor. They would more likely, in that day, say the person was possessed. What about a person who had Creutzfield-Jakob Disease during Bible times (or something like that) that is characterized by rapidly progressive dementia, leading to memory loss, personality changes and hallucinations. Other frequently occurring features include anxiety, depression, paranoia, obsessive-compulsive symptoms, and psychosis. If Jesus were to remove the prions from that person, wouldn't that be described as removing an "evil spirit"? Whenever the presentation results in personality change, there is a tendency to call it an "evil spirit" even though the problem could be related to some medical condition. If the problem was simply a medical condition like blindness, then Jesus is described as healing the person. (in general) In terms of doctrinal significance, I don't see any problem with looking at it that way, after all, Jesus triumphs over all carnal corruption. For example, the millennium is characterized by not having those diseases at the same time Satan is bound. Healthy (in terms of no corruption as a result of the Fall) body = Satan bound, unhealthy body (i.e - corrupted, carnal body) = Satan has power to bruise our heel. The thorn in the flesh for Paul was a potential source of spiritual failure and trial that he had to endure. It wasn't a reflection of his "evil" nature or that he was possessed by and actual evil spirit.

What about Michael using priesthood power before receiving a body. Did that happen or not? If so, how did he get the priesthood?

Alma 13; " 3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such." It may be semantics - called vs. chosen. Is being "chosen" not a priesthood calling?

Yeah, was thinking of possible "laying on of hands" where at least one aspect, the one performing the ordinance or receiving, was not physical. I understand there is a "rule" but trying to understand why such a rule is so strong that it would require Peter, James and John to be resurrected to perform it (as was suggested). That makes it seem like a strong rule, as if it simply can't be done any other way, but why? ...the ordinances are spiritual in nature. I don't know if we really have an answer to that. Did Michael use priesthood authority to help form the Earth before he was in the Garden of Eden?

I understand that, the question was why it has to be done with "physical hands". When the noble and great ones were called for specific missions on this Earth, was it done with physical or spiritual hands? Is serving a mission in spirit prison a priesthood calling for one who is in paradise?

I understand that the Lord has designated the laying on of hands as the procedure to perform many priesthood ordinances but why "physical"? I am assuming spirits have hands too.

I have had several miscarriages as well. I think there are additional questions that are brought on by this topic beyond what has already been discussed. We know that a physical body without a spirit is dead or at least not described as "man". At the moment of conception there is live tissue, the zygote is not dead. Even with in vitro fertilization we can tell that the cells are alive. So, in that case, whose spirit is in those cells? Either one has to believe that it is possible to have physically alive tissue that is not "man" because there is no spirit attached to it or one has to believe that whenever there is a separate entity of life, even as small as a zygote there has to be an individual spirit attached to it. The implications of that discussion have an effect on what one believes about life before Adam. If there is live tissue available before the spirit is placed in it then it would be possible to have all sorts of pre-man forms come and go before finally there is the first man in which a spirit is placed after its physical formation. There is no "death" prior to that because those entities never had a spirit placed in it. Similarly there may not be a "death" of a zygote or a fetus until a certain point in which the spirit enters the body, or is capable of entering the body. If one believes that there always has to be a spirit in any separate living entity then I suppose all those eternally married couples that try in vitro fertilization are going to have a lot of kids in the next life!

Don't judge success or failure in terms of your current station. This life is just a probationary state, not the final outcome. LDS believe that even the Telestial Kingdom (the lowest of the three) is far greater than anything we encounter here. You are successful, you have passed the first test of faith, the first estate test. This life is to further stratify the successful sons and daughters of God into Kingdoms of Glory. Don't look at the means as the end. Do you see Christ as the person on the cross or as the glorified being that overcomes all and will reign on this Earth with all power? Also, this life is more of a faith revealed experience than it is faith builder. We all had faith enough to pass the first estate test, now we show if our faith is strong enough to actually do the things we said we would, or was it just talk. It is like a soldier who in boot camp vows they would never leave a fallen soldier behind but in the heat of the battle, not all soldiers would do what they vowed to do. There has to be "the heat of the battle" to reveal who those soldiers are. This life is the "heat of the battle", it is our trial, our probationary state. This life is a test to see where we put our hearts, on the things of this world (or the lack of things of this world making us sorrowful) or on the treasures of heaven. Sometimes, despair and focusing on "suffering" reveals where our heart's treasure lies. Matthew 6: " 19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. 25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"

If it was paid in full then that would take away any chance for mercy. The plan of having a Savior allows for both justice and mercy together without it having to be one or the other alone. I think there is an underlying concept that is hard for many to swallow nowadays and that is the idea that dependency is good and being independent is not as good. Depending on the Lord is a good thing. The plan was never to absolve ourselves of all debt and be beholden to nobody. The reason we have advanced as a society in this world, even, is because we "owe" the luxuries of this world to all those that have come before us. If we all had to start by pounding rocks together and couldn't take from past generations we would not have the blessings we have now ... we wouldn't even be talking with each other. The same applies in the next world, one helps another to advance and by doing so receives joy and happiness, happiness is magnified. Fighting the idea of depending on a Savior is part of the test that reveals one would not feel comfortable in a Celestial environment. That, in part, is why we face this test of faith, which requires temptation (suffering) and a Savior to turn to.

Not everyone has to suffer; D&C; " 26 And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face. 27 And in that day awhatsoever any man shall ask, it shall be given unto him. 28 And in that day Satan shall not have power to tempt any man. 29 And there shall be no sorrow because there is no death. 30 In that day an infant shall not die until he is old; and his life shall be as the age of a tree; 31 And when he dies he shall not sleep, that is to say in the earth, but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be bcaught up, and his rest shall be glorious." Suffering isn't a necessary step for all, just for some (probably majority).

God's ways are not available to us even if we understood all the physical science around us unless one believes that the science of gross matter is the same as the science and physics that applies to fine matter. I am not sure how we could know that all science available to us is inclusive of all the science available to God. Since we are told that God's mysteries are only obtained via the spirit, I would assume that there is some science applicable to the "fine matter" world that is not accessible from the physical realm that we find ourselves in now. That doesn't mean that the laws around us are violated. He could have certainly used methods that are not possible in this environment to create this world. If all I can see is a radio and don't have access to the broadcast station, at best, all I could do is hypothesize that there is some technology or method that allows a signal to be sent from some other location and received by the radio. Similarly, even if we detected somehow the location or receiving point of information transmitted from the spiritual realm we would only be commenting on the receiving end and not talking about the science or physics of the sending end. One could ponder how the Liahona might be some real piece of technology but to hypothesis about the physics and science of how it is driven by whether the family of Lehi is righteous or not, probably would not be discovered by a scientific examination of the Liahona itself. Even if we somehow we could identify the location of where the spirit communicates with the body, it would not speak of the physiology or the biophysical properties of the spirit. That doesn't mean that physical properties and laws of the body are violated just that the spirit realm is not accessed by the physical alone. We don't have access to the science beyond the interface. All we can comment on, in terms of scientific discovery of man, is the world around us up to the point of interface.

The emphasis should be on the word "our" because obviously Elder Ballard speaking to "Brothers and sisters" are those that have had the chance to accept or reject the gospel while in this life. At death, our testimony can make us "safely dead" and the probationary state ends at death. But for the person who hasn't had the chance to accept or reject it then the probationary or preparatory state goes on into the spirit world. "Safely dead" I think means what Alma described in chapter 40: " 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow."

From LDS.org the definition of mortality; "The time from birth until physical death. This is sometimes called the second estate." So, I see where the confusion comes from, it is sometimes used for the state from birth to death and sometimes used interchangeably with "the second estate."

As has already been said, that scripture is referring to people that either don't have the law (like the gentiles) or those that have a dead law (like the law of Moses). That is what "without the law" means. That verse is not applicable to those that have the law. So, if they don't have the law, how will God judge them? Of course, He is not going to judge them by the law of works but by the law of faith. We all have the light of Christ upon coming here, no matter what the circumstances, we can then be judged by the law of faith. But if one is not obedient to the law of faith it doesn't matter if they follow the works. Being circumcised physically, in other words, means nothing if one isn't circumcised of heart. A good modern example of how this scripture applies is with infant baptism. Is an infant that is baptized more likely to be saved than another who is not baptized as an infant? Under what law? Infant baptism is not something to boast about. D&C 22; "1 Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting ccovenant, even that which was from the beginning. 2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works. 3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old." Moroni 8:22 “ 22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing— 23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.”

Great thoughts! thanks. I remember when I was in nursing school and I would come home and tell my family about my day (still living with my parents at that time) they would say "stop talking about that, that's disgusting". My mom, though, would stay interested and seemingly really enjoyed my run down of the days events, even though she knew nothing about nursing or medicine. Just a little while ago my mother revealed to me that she also thought my discussions were hard to hear, especially around the dinner table but the reason she loved hearing them is because she was excited to see my excitement and that made her happy. The excitement she had over my learning overpowered the topic that she found to be gross. I think the key in understanding the process of eternal joy is understanding what true compassion and charity allows. It allows a person to be connected in such a way that their achievements are shared in a vicarious way. Even God's glory is to bring about our happiness. That would not amount to much if it wasn't for the fact that He loves us so much that He is affected by our achievements. This is why the characteristics of a Celestial being center around love because that is what it takes to be connected with others in such a way that we magnify our joy more than what we could do individually. Everything we do in the gospel is centered around that idea as we are to learn how to depend on Christ and in turn be Christ-like. Being a covenant people teaches us that, bearing our testimony and being a part of a family, both at home and in the ward, teaches us those concepts. One is truly happy when one can be equally excited about another's achievement as if it was their own. Darkness is being single, disconnected and self centered. It is limiting in that one can only grow up and develop once at best. That is the most a single person could achieve. Being connected makes the process one eternal round experienced over and over again as God finds His glory in our progress. Those are characteristics, not just preferences. Either a person has those characteristics or they develop them during our short probationary period or they don't have them and never will. At the end of the second estate test we will have revealed the level to which we can look beyond ourselves for happiness.

Thanks for your response. Great explanation! ...it is also interesting that electrical forces are part of neuronal signals in the brain. May be a way to know one's thoughts.

That is all great if this was a forum to discuss those scientific theories but you stated that you wanted to tie this into the gospel and how it related to receiving light from Kolob, etc. Tell me specifically how this; "The electrical universe model uses "known laws" and the properties of plasma, electrical currents, magnetic fields, etc., to demonstrate how stars could be formed, operate, move, etc. It seems to have better answers and predictions for phenomena which are not yet understood. A very simple example is the process of planetary scarring. Standard model has no real explanation for how or why this happens yet its effects are seen on many moons and planets. Electrical model has a very simple logical explanation." ties into the gospel. Encyclopedia Judaica Jr.; "According to some modern commentators, the building of the tower was an example of man's extreme pride in his own ability. The building became such an obsession that, according to the Midrash,when a builder fell off the tower to his death, the other builders paid no attention, but when a brick fell,they would cry: "When shall another come in its place?" According to this interpretation, every generation has its own Tower of Babel, when it begins to idolize its technology. The moral of the story is thus as applicable today as it was thousands of years ago." Nephi's prayer; " O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm." Making flesh one's "arm" pertains, in part, to the process of making the things around us, worldly things, our passion and our heaven, our treasure. All I am saying is that it is dangerous to make the carnal world findings equivalent to heavenly things. And more so if they become one's heart desire. It is prideful to think that we can reach heaven via scientific study. There is only one path there. Now, if you weren't relating those things to heavenly realms then I don't understand your point in discussing them in this forum. Maybe I don't understand the connection you are trying to make and if that is the case then I am sorry for misunderstanding you.

I am not sure why we assume that the "observed laws of physics" relate to fine matter. Fine matter, or the realm of God may have totally different physics from what we observe. Kolob may be made up of material that we are not able to "see" while in this condition. It may not be observable until the world is transformed as well as everything around us. It is interesting to me that people assume those two spheres must follow the same laws. We cannot build a "Tower of Babel" (the thought that we can understand God's realm on our own and therefore don't need a Savior) to reach God, that has been tried already. Even considering it is not a good idea.

It's not just a "test of action", the second estate test is one of action when a person is in a fallen state, thus requiring faith and dependence in the Lord. The Fall of Adam is the necessary beginning of the second estate test. The second estate test is a way to stratify those that are faithful. The second estate test is a way to determine the award and eternal standing of all the "A" students of the first estate test. The test would not be given for those that don't need the test. What exactly was the criteria for those individuals, we don't know. I am assuming it was based in God's knowledge of the level of faith they had shown to that point but we do not know why they don't need the second estate test. I didn't give an explanation for those that "die as children, handicaps, etc." because I wasn't talking about them. I was talking about those that undergo the second estate test which continues on through the spirit prison in the spirit world. Those that are in paradise have come unto Christ' rest. D&C 137; " 9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. 10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven." Christ was perfect but not yet perfected. He grew in stature amongst man and God while here. Part of the purpose of this life, too, is to receive a body. There is a point in that. Mortality isn't pointless even if it didn't include the test.

The second estate test is one of seeing if we will do the things we are asked to do, it is a test of action. The first estate test was one based in belief. We all passed the first estate test, there is no need to repeat that part again alone. In other words, the spirit world test must include some test of action. Will those spirits do the things they need to do to accept the gospel and covenants done vicariously for them. So, the rejection of the work likely is some form of lack of action. It may not be a clear mind saying "no" but more like "it's not worth the effort". I think despair will continue for those who despair, they won't look for help even when the help is offered. All of the action verbs we use here to describe someone who is righteous probably still applies in the spirit world, like knock, ask, follow, pray, ponder, serve, sacrifice, etc.

Yes, this is taught very specifically as the dual nature we now have between the physical and the spirit bodies. Teachings of David O. McKay: "Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual. Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit: “And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.] Life is a test to see which of our two natures we will follow and develop. Man’s earthly existence is but a test as to whether he will concentrate his efforts, his mind, his soul, upon things which contribute to the comfort and gratification of his physical nature, or whether he will make as his life’s pursuit the acquisition of spiritual qualities. “Every noble impulse, every unselfish expression of love; every brave suffering for the right; every surrender of self to something higher than self; every loyalty to an ideal; every unselfish devotion to principle; every helpfulness to humanity; every act of self-control; every fine courage of the soul, undefeated by pretense or policy, but by being, doing, and living of good for the very good’s sake—that is spirituality.”" And Elder Bednar; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to bridle all of the passions of the flesh."

Suffering in that sense is a mortal experience. Christ had to be born in this world in order to suffer more than anyone. He could not have suffered as a spirit alone. Part of the purpose of the atonement was to remove the prince of this world from the little he was given power over for a short period of this time. In other words, the atonement takes away from Satan even more. John 12:31 " 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the aprince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be alifted up from the earth, will bdraw all men unto me." Hebrews 2: " 14 aForasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." The devil didn't want to suffer (be mortal), so God gave him what he wanted.