Seminarysnoozer

Thanks for this post! I agree. The other thing to consider is that we believe that the realm of God is not made of the material we have before us. Even if we were to learn all about the 'course matter' we have in front of us, all of it's physics and physical properties, who is to say that 'fine matter' follows similar properties and physics. God is not reachable through science and physics or the learning of man. The Book of Mormon title page states "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ." The brethren were also concerned about the language of the Doctrine and Covenants before it was published. They thought they might correct some of the language that was revealed. In other words, they thought because they had more learning they could come closer to the truth than one who was given the spirit to do so. As a result they were chastised for such a thought. This is section 67. .... " 10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual. 11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God. 12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind. 13 Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected." It says here, pretty specifically, that the problem was the lack of humility in that the elders thought they could reproduce similar speech and revelation through their own carnal mind power and not through the spirit. The Lord responds, very specifically, that no natural man after the carnal mind can abide the presence of God and that the only way to get there is by admitting that we can't (humility). The more we even consider that possibility (which is exactly what the elders did about those words of the revelations), by definition, there is not enough humility to reach God. There is no other way, not through science, not through learning, or any other method of the carnal mind. This is a good example of how the Lord teaches us that there is a difference between the carnal mind and the spiritual mind. To differentiate the two within us can be difficult but one clue is who we give credit to, our own knowledge, or the humility generated thoughts from the spirit. I agree, we do not need to repeat the tower of Babel experience.

Faithlessness does not separate agnostics from atheists. They both fail to pass the test of faith. True science never has to be defended. Theories and opinions sometimes are defended. Knowing the truth, we don't have to categorize the groups who muddied the water into scientists and religion, we just say man has muddied the water. But that is the way it is supposed to be. That is what allows us to choose between God and mammon. Whether it is wealth of material goods or wealth of knowledge, one cannot worship wealth and God because in reality the worship of wealth of knowledge or material things is a self centered mode of thinking. Knowledge in and of itself is not evil just like money is not evil, but the love of it without having an eye single to the glory of God (which is how one could describe agnostic or atheist scientists) is a force that muddies the waters, pulling away from the things of God. So, give credit where credit is due. Scientists have equally contributed to the dissolution of faith by their selves. What do you think is more valuable, faith or knowledge in this life (without saying "both" - the key words being - 'more' as well as 'in this life')? Of course both are valuable but where should one put most of their efforts while in this life?

"Flaw" was a bad choice of words. I didn't mean it that way. I was just trying to point out the subtle belief he had in a higher power, the little light of Christ shinning through in his statement. Because a "waste" is only a waste if one sees purpose in our existence or purpose of the universe. If one sees purpose in our existence it is a claim of some higher purpose, even if at a subtle level. Of course, we all know that even Carl Sagan believed in Christ in the pre-mortal world. Some of that light of Christ always breaks through to some degree, even in the most stubborn.

I know. That is why I was pointing out that flaw in his choice of words. Do you think he is still agnostic?

I am not sure what you mean by this statement. What percentage of my own resurrection do I do myself, 100%?

To call it a waste implies purpose. To suggest purpose gives suggestion to a higher purpose, i.e. - a belief in God. Of course, if there is no higher purpose to life then it is not a waste. Good to hear Carl really believed in God (as we all did before coming here). I think the inquiry about life out there in space somewhere already is a piece of the light of Christ shinning through as it reflects one's spirit's knowledge that this life goes beyond what is here.

You have intrigued me with your question. Why is it so important that you understand the "organization and order" of such work? Does it matter if it is done two-by-two or if there are 12 lectures as opposed to 6 or if their is teaching by object lessons as opposed to written material or telepathy? Do they knock on doors or do they simply tap their shoulder? Do they have to report back to some spirit world mission president or just directly to Christ? Or does the individual have to seek out the information their self? I am not sure of what the significance of such information would provide us here. I am curious why you find this important for your mortal existence.

To get to proof for anything learned one would have to pass through levels of faith no matter what the topic. When one is young, one has faith in what their parents are teaching is true. When we go through school we have faith that what the teachers are teaching is true and we build on it. If I study chemistry, I don't have to go out and find all the elements myself, refine them myself and define their structure all by myself to know, for example, the molecular weight of carbon. I can simply look at a periodic table and look at all the molecular weights. But by doing that, it requires faith that that information is true. I didn't prove it for myself. I have never personally proven the instability of all the isotopes of uranium, I will take their word for it, I have faith that their information is correct about it's radioactive properties. In that way, faith is the quickest way to learn. If everyone had to learn all things individually than man would be stuck in the stone age or worse. Faith based learning is what allows us to be a society and advance ourselves. The same principle applies to the pre-mortal and the post-mortal world. The key issue with faith, as far as the religious significance goes, is what we have faith in. Do we express faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ and faith in our Savior or do we express more faith in the carnal realm, what is physically manifest? This is often separated by the terms "of man" or "of God". Do we have more faith in the teachings of man or more in the teachings of God? It is not so much of a question of faith or no faith but where we put our faith. I know of no person in this world that has no faith in anything, if they claim that, they are not telling the truth.

I feel like we talk about Heavenly Mother all the time, which is God. There are times where there is reference to God as an individual, priesthood authority but I am strongly sure that God has an eternal marriage and He likely does not view Him self as an individual but as a sealed, united person. We can say this because we know that this is what is needed for us to become more like Him. Likewise, I am sure Heavenly Mother doesn't see her self as an individual and it may be odd for her to be referenced that way. She would be incomplete without her eternal companion and certainly would not be a mother without that unification. I am sure that in the pre-mortal life we realized that the only way to become like our Heavenly Father was to be worthy of such a companionship. I am sure that is why we took on this stewardship so that we can prepare for greater, similar responsibilities. This is probably why we don't separate out a Heavenly Mother as I am pretty sure they do not even see their selves as separate individuals. (Personal opinion - not LDS doctrine).

Why can't God incorporate all time as opposed to living outside of it, that would solve the grandfather paradox as there is no alteration of events in another time. One of God's characteristics shown by Our Savior in this world is that of perfect empathy. One of the features Christ represents is His ability to pay for sins He did not commit. His empathy is so powerful as to comprehend the act that He did not do Him self. I think if we ponder that carefully then we would better understand how it is possible that one man could someday have all that was before him and all that is in the future. We already believe this is a god-like characteristic. Christ redeems our sins by interceding for us as if He is the one that has the debt. He also is able to give glory, glory of acts. God is able to receive glory from acts He did not personally perform. How is this possible? It is possible because that is a God-like characteristic. We are told to work on that characteristic here and are screened for such a skill by loving others as our self, working on empathy. Vicarious acts are part of our gospel for a reason. I believe there is something very important in Christ's prayer that we all become "one" with Him as He is "one" with God the Father. An individual that can become "one" with God in the way that Christ asked us to (which can only occur after resurrection) is to be part of all that was before and all that is in the future within what is God's and in that way making it our own, never anything before or after as it is all one. It can't vary as it is all one, it never changes and it incorporates all time. It doesn't have to be outside of time when it incorporates all time. We haven't been told the details of how this happens. I am curious, though, if the need for a body plays a role in this process. Possibly, the change that takes place into a Celestial body, the Celestial body being one like the sun and all that stands for may be the point of change from finite time to incorporating all time. The only reason to state this is because there really is no need to hunt for some, "living outside of time" theory. Living "outside of time" would also create the contradiction to the definition we have of God's work surrounding changing things over time, "to bring to pass" ...

Consider the example of Joseph wanting to decide for his father, Jacob where to place his right and left hand over Ephraim and Manasseh's head in the final blessing. Joseph thought it should be Manasseh, who was the eldest to have the right handed blessing but it was not to be because it was not up to Joseph to decide but his father (through the power of God). This is similar to Christ not deciding but His Father. The right hand is more useful, metaphorically speaking, than the left. Genesis 48; " 18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. 19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations. 20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh."

I think you are overlooking what it means to "understand of God and His marvelous works". To understand God at any level requires faith and listening to the spirit. The pitfall of being learned is to speak from the brain and not from the heart. I am, of course, not saying you are doing that but maybe not giving credit to that process that gets you to that point. The way one comes to an understanding of God is through humble faith, through the realization that His ways are unreachable without His assistance. When a person is willing to soften their heart and make it open to the promptings that require faith and humility, then there starts to be an understanding. One can learn of the same "marvelous works" in many ways but without a faithful and humble heart the person gives credit to "nature" or "science" as their God of creation. By you calling it an "understanding of God", by definition faith had to be part of that process, faith in things that are mysterious and unreachable (for now).

There are also diseases like Narcissism or body dysmorphic disorder in which a person may spend a majority of their time and effort focused on their body appearance and "health" to the point of sacrificing family and friend's relationships and much of their resources. Like all things, I think there needs be moderation and doing it for the right reasons, to be good stewards over our stewardship. If I work out daily to be sexually attractive, hoping for an extra-marital affair, then obviously that is for the wrong reason. Sometimes people even let themselves go as a way to hide or they may have a nervous condition turning to food for comfort. The problem is that man sees the outside and the Lord sees the inner man. Whereas man cannot judge the inner man by looking at the outside. ... that is the trap. That is what Satan hopes for; not only judging others but even ourselves based on the outer man. The safest way to discuss it is in terms of being good stewards over the stewardship of the body, at least as best we can, which is at different levels for everyone.

Do you think He was mysterious to us in the pre-mortal world? (Or were those rhetorical questions?) If He wasn't then the "principle" is not eternal, just a temporary situation found behind the veil. Then the reason for mysteriousness would be answered by the same answers for the need for a veil in this life. i.e. - this life is not a test of fund of knowledge but of faith with the limited knowledge given.

Some thoughts about the death question; There may be a difference between what is commonly called death and the reference to death in the scriptures and when discussing the change with Adam and Eve. From a religious perspective, death is defined as the separation of the spirit from the body (at least physical death). But to have the opportunity for physical death there must be those two parts, the body and the spirit. God created the body before the spirit was placed into it. If we take that literally then there is a time in which there is a body without a spirit. If a body exists without a spirit then there cannot be death (physical) just in terms of separation of spirit from the body after it has been united, as it was never united with a spirit. This is not revealed fully but we tend to believe, for example, that there is a time when a fetus does not quite have the spirit attached to it. The time in which the spirit joins the body may be at the point of the quickening. If this point is after conception then there is a time where there is a human body without a spirit. If the pregnancy is aborted before the quickening, do we call that death? How is it death without the quickening or the attachment of a spirit? One might say, 'well, the body isn't fully developed to that point, so it is not really a person' - exactly! that is my point. There was no "man" before Adam. So, I guess, the underlying question is whether organic material organized into a creature, dinosaurs for example could exist without an associated individual intelligence or spirit. Then if that creature without a spirit dies, it is not "death" as in separation of spirit from body. If Adam was the first creature to receive an intelligence then there could not be death before him, although it might be possible that organic entities came and went before that did not have spirits. My sister underwent in vitro fertilization. There were many eggs collected and fertilized but not all were used. Some, after a few days, don't live and some are not used. Do we consider those fertilized eggs individuals? They were "living" separately from her body at least for a few days. And did they "die"? Or did the organic material "die" without ever having a spirit attached to it? A thought to ponder - apply the "in vitro" scenario to the "prior to man" state of the Earth but on a grander scale than a test tube. (these are just thoughts that I think are related to the pondering questions you bring up - not beliefs)

Thanks for your comments! The failure of the metaphor though is that in this life, experiences alone may not be long lasting or have any eternal significance. It is only those that are done with the right intent that have eternal significance. Building treasures in heaven is different than building earthly treasure. Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish the two but we do believe that there are some pursuits that may seem outwardly positive pursuits but turn out to be "earthly treasure" pursuits only. They can seem momentarily positive and worthwhile but in the end they turn to dust. It is only when one maintains an eternal perspective and an eye single to the glory of God, which allows God to instruct a person as to which pursuits are worthwhile, then we can really build those eternal treasures. I think many will be surprised by how much of their "hard work" directed towards earthly pursuits turn to dust in the end and realize how much time and effort went towards the wrong pursuits in this limited time we have here. Of course, the process of repentance by definition is done with an eye single to the glory of God and has long lasting significance. So failed pursuits can be turned to some good. But, I think it is always a better use of time to start out with the heavenly pursuits. I think it all comes down to whether the experiences are for self fulfillment or are they for some greater good which is what having an eye single to the glory of God entails.

Good post! The most common sleep disorder though, is not sleep apnea, it is poor sleep hygiene or chronic insomnia. We carry with us 2 weeks of sleep debt so even though the OP said there was 8 hours of sleep the night before, it could be a quality problem that is associated with sleep hygiene or periodic insomnia over the past couple weeks. The most common mistake with sleep hygiene is not turning of the lights soon enough. As it is in nature, the lights should be going down 12 hours before they come on. The brain doesn't know, for example, the computer screen is not the sun. So, if lights aren't shut off 12 hours before they come on that is like telling the brain one is in a time zone 4 hours over at night from the time zone they are in the morning - like jet lag. Good sleep hygiene would allow for deep sleep, meaning at least 20% of the time in slow wave sleep. The biggest red flag for sleep apnea is witnessed pauses ... also one can have sweating at night, getting up to go to the bathroom frequently, heartburn out of sleep and headaches out of sleep. Ultimately, the only way to know is by a sleep study, it can't be diagnosed by observation alone and it is important to realize it cannot be diagnosed by oxygen measurements at night - sleep apnea is not a problem of oxygen.

We are dual beings, both body and spirit. Satan played a role in us obtaining this corrupted body, so indirectly Satan is, in part, responsible. Our body is not a perfected body, here our brains can generate carnal drives of all kinds. The brain can create and imagine. It can assume and anticipate and in that way generate learned behaviors and reactions. Many of those are for survival. When we think we hear a "lion's roar" off in the distance, we run. We don't have to verify that it is indeed a lion (metaphorically speaking). For whatever reason your brain has a response to a potential situation, this is within the capability of the brain's wiring. Part of Satan's "deception" is created by this condition of being "man" which is a dual being of both carnal nature and spiritual nature. This is what creates the test we face here, to show which influence we pay heed to. The carnal influence is supposed to be there our whole life as that is part of the purpose of this life. Like Paul's thorn in the flesh, he realized that it is there for specific reasons and that he could not get rid of it. We all face those carnal influences even though they present in different ways for everyone.

2 Nephi 2; " 27 Wherefore, men are afree according to the bflesh; and call things are dgiven them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to echoose fliberty and eternal glife, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be hmiserable like unto himself." From lds.org on "Agency and Accountability"; " While here on earth, you are being proven to see if you will use your agency to show your love for God by keeping His commandments. .... You are responsible for the choices you make. ... While you are free to choose your course of action, you are not free to choose the consequences. Whether for good or bad, consequences follow as a natural result of the choices you make." Agency is tied in with accountability and the natural consequences that follow. We can sum up two points in the plan at which that occurs, the first estate test and the second estate test. Just like the time period of preparation before accountability takes place in this life, less than the age of 8, there likely was a time period before the test began in the pre-mortal life (my thoughts). In any case, we only know about pre-mortal agency at the point at which accountability is enforced, the great war in heaven. How we fare at that point is dependent on our preparation but the agency is reflected in their being consequences to the choice, accountability. We know that accountability is not on 100% of the time because we can give examples of when it is not in effect, under the age of 8 or people who have been given bodies in which they cannot be held accountable. I guess it depends on how strongly one holds on to the tie between agency and accountability. Can one really be a free agent without accountability? I don't think so.

Really? I thought that is what is implied by agreeing to keep the first estate - the cooperation (concurrence) with the plan. Keeping the first estate is not a request to go on to the next step?

The use of the word "man" (for me at least) implies 'while in mortality' and not what happened before. Maybe using the words, 'God's children' or 'those that kept the first estate' is more inclusive of the events prior to being in this "man" state of corrupted, behind the veil, body with spirit state. Reading through the list of principles, I was assuming "while in mortality" applied to each of those statements. Is the veil a limitation (I don't think subversion is the right word) of free agency or does it just narrow the things for which we are accountable and therefore free agents over? I think the veil is what allows us to receive "small things" (stewardship) before we are given bigger things. How are we fallen? Are we not fallen by way of agency? It is the result of agency given that we become corrupted and fallen and need a Savior. So, in essence, us accepting the second estate test is like saying, 'I would like to be in a state in which I may lessen my agency by way of sin'. (but knowing it is just temporarily limited/subverted). I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe number 5 is one of those, what came first the chicken or the egg? Agency is 'concurrence' but the agency could limit future agency. Maybe it is the nature of agency that is subversive not God himself.

Thanks for presenting this topic, I am sure it will generate a lot of discussion. I think one thing to consider is when we look at what God will or will not do to meet the demands of justice one has to also consider what Christ has done for us to meet the demands of justice and provide mercy with the plan He has outlined for us to redeem ourselves for all the things God will not do. This is exactly why we have a Savior to overcome those demands and provide a different way to achieve those things we could not do for ourselves. Christ's plan requires faith in Him, which by definition involves some mystery. I would suggest that the test of knowledge already occurred, that is what happened with the first estate test with which we all passed. We don't have to repeat the test we already passed. We already, intellectually, understand the plan and agreed with it. The question now, for the second estate test, is one of action and resolve. Will we do the things we said we would do when we understood them intellectually but now under a veil of opposition and struggle that forces faith? That becomes a test of character. We talked about this one time in Family Home Evening and the metaphor that came out that made sense to me is likening it to a soldier in boot camp who swears that they would not leave one of their fellow soldiers behind while in battle. They agreed with the concept intellectually and even if they hadn't had an combat experience, the concept was well understood. But when in the heat of the battle, when faced with the actual fear of death and other thoughts, maybe not all those soldiers would risk their life to go back for a fellow soldier. In that situation the true test of character comes out that goes beyond an ideal. It is a test of action that reveals one true character. This is similar to the test we face here.

Part of his misery, I think, is based in him realizing that he cannot progress further. The realization of that comes from knowing himself, his character. Just like at the end of our journey here, we will have a better view of the limitations of our character or what we say is the "desire of our heart". Satan's desire of the heart, or his true character is one in which he could not reach a level of glory. That is who he is and that is why he is in misery. If we fall short of our goal at the end of this life we will go through that type of misery (maybe not to the extent satan has) while in spirit prison realizing the nature of our being is one that has limits. It is not just a realization of certain acts, it is a realization of the nature of our being, the "desire of our heart" as that is the whole purpose of this passage to see if we will do the things we are asked to do despite carnal temptation.

I agree with what you are saying here but it kind-of comes across like you are saying that our current life is one that fulfills our dreams. In a way that is true but this life is a stepping stone to our real dreams. I think it is more accurate to say that we viewed this life as an opportunity to meet the requirements to one day, after mortality, fulfill our dreams. Before I went to college it was my dream to go to college but only so I could have the career of my dreams, not that I would stay in college forever. I think we looked at this life with that eternal perspective in mind, realizing that these are just a set of temporary stewardship that is not in any way linearly reflective of reward for past achievement or future status. It is just a temporary stewardship, that we are thankful and glad to have. The child that suffers with Down's syndrome is not stricken with that condition as a reflection of what he or she wants for eternity but takes the stewardship in faith knowing that he or she is carrying out God's plan. That level of faithfulness springs them right into the Celestial Kingdom. That spirit doesn't do it with the idea that they would like to have Down's Syndrome but does it with an eye single to the glory of God, for the bigger picture. That is true about any level of suffering, we don't it for the sake of suffering alone but with an eye single to the glory of God, then it is worth it. Just like going to college is for a bigger reason (at least for most).

We are told what to do when we need to be given such direction, that comes in the form of "pray always".