Seminarysnoozer

If this life is the "superior training ground" please explain the baby that dies at 5 minutes of age and goes to the Celestial Kingdom without having "superior training"? Elder Christofferson said; "The scriptures enlarge our memory by helping us always to remember the Lord and our relationship to Him and the Father. They remind us of what we knew in our premortal life. And as these things penetrate our minds and hearts, our faith in God and His Beloved Son takes root." The whole process of being spiritual is one of remembering. Remembering what? What you already agreed to, which is what happened by passing the first estate test. We all heard the plan of Salvation in better detail than we now know it and we all (that are here in mortality) accepted it. At that point we accepted "all truth", a lot of which was accepted by faith but still the same we all accepted all truth. Our responsibilities to increase in knowledge while here on Earth are independent of how much we learned before. The responsibility to learn all we can here is not because we haven't learned it before but to show our action of faith, to prove that we will do the things the Lord asks us to do and with an eye single to His glory help bring about His work on Earth. The value of which is to learn the action of obedience and diligence. The value is not in the acquiring of personal secular knowledge, what one thinks are "new" facts. What fact can you discover in this life that you could not get from God? (reminder; I said "fact" not experience)

What we did not know is how to exercise agency in making choices between good and evil. One should not interpret that as meaning we did not have any concept of what was good and evil. You change the wording of your second and third sentences. You first say "did not know good and evil" and then you said in the next sentence "to learn good from evil". Those two things are different. To have the ability to separate good from evil is different from learning about good and evil. If one had never tasted cheese in their life I could still tell them about how cheese is made, they could even learn that one cheese is more sweet or salty than another etc. They could learn all those facts and names and descriptions even if they do not know what "salty" tastes like. But to distinguish one cheese from another by taste, one would have to experience those tastes. I think the issue I have is that everyone interprets this lack of knowledge of how to distinguish good from bad as synonymous with never even hearing about "good" and "evil". I think that is a false assumption. Because it says in Gospel Principles; "Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies. We would need to leave our physical bodies at death and reunite with them in the Resurrection. Then we would receive immortal bodies like that of our Heavenly Father. If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our Heavenly Father has received. (See D&C 93:30–34.) Our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present His plan for our progression (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, 209, 511). We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as He does (see D&C 132:19–20). We learned that He would provide an earth for us where we would prove ourselves (see Abraham 3:24–26). A veil would cover our memories, and we would forget our heavenly home. This would be necessary so we could exercise our agency to choose good or evil without being influenced by the memory of living with our Heavenly Father. Thus we could obey Him because of our faith in Him, not because of our knowledge or memory of Him. He would help us recognize the truth when we heard it again on earth (see John 18:37). At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. However, we also learned that some would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose their way. We learned that all of us would have trials in our lives: sickness, disappointment, pain, sorrow, and death. But we understood that these would be given to us for our experience and our good (see D&C 122:7). If we allowed them to, these trials would purify us rather than defeat us. They would teach us to have endurance, patience, and charity (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball [2006], 15–16). At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children would sin (see D&C 29:46–47). We learned that a Savior would be provided for us so we could overcome our sins and overcome death with resurrection. We learned that if we placed our faith in Him, obeying His word and following His example, we would be exalted and become like our Heavenly Father. We would receive a fulness of joy." It says very clearly there that WE LEARNED while at that council before this life began in pre-mortality that a Savior would be provided so that we could overcome our sins and we learned that all of us would sin except little children. And WE LEARNED that all of this would be for our good. So, you tell me how WE LEARNED all of that without ever talking and knowing about good and evil. I never said anything about experiential knowledge, in fact I excluded that as things learned in pre-mortality. But we still learned about good, sin and the need for a Savior as well as the evil influences of this world. And likely we better understood what that meant than even how we understand it now because we had the perfect language and in direct communication with our Father in Heaven who is a perfect teacher. Don't tell me we had that life changing discussion with nobody asking the question, "God, what does 'good' mean? What does 'evil' mean?"

No my brain cannot remember all those things. Yes. Yes. Please give me the exact quote from Jesus that uses the word "originate". So what thought in the "heart" did the innocent spirit, never to experience sin baby have that died at 5 minutes old?

All the examples you gave were of people who have had experiences. There is no proof of a baby "hearing the mother's heart beat" other than maybe the auditory evoked potentials of the neurons firing when sound is made. But, you cannot prove to me that it was experienced. When someone is in a coma, they are completely out, I can still tap on their reflexes and make their limb move. Was that experienced? Why not, the nerve was stimulated and it moved? Yes, neurons are active in the womb and start wiring even as early as the 6th to 8th week in the womb but that is not a description of experience. When I was in school we took frog eyes and stimulated the nerves and measured potentials in the brain related to the optic nerve inputs. Did the frog experience the optic nerve stimulation? No. It's spirit was not connected to the organic tissue we were studying. Honestly, you do not know what you are talking about. Go spend half a day on a neonatal intensive care unit, look at the flat line brain waves of a neonate that is on life support. Look at the MRI of a baby who has massive cerebral hemorrhage or herniation or even anencephaly. If you say, well the spirit had an experience; maybe. But the experience was purely a spiritual one, it did not "experience" death in the sense of having a mortal experience. If there is no body (brain) to talk to then the spirit can't experience anything through the brain. If someone is "brain dead" but kept alive on life support but their brain is not picking up on any sensory information then what "mortal" experience are they experiencing at that moment? What I believe is that there are spirits born in this world that will not remember one mortal experience (i.e. - information interpreted through the brain) while here. You can't prove me wrong anymore than I can prove to you that is true. Even people that have photographic memories cannot remember being in the womb or their birth, that is boloney! If they say they can, that is a made up memory and I don't believe it. The human brain makes up memories all the time.

The answer is no if you include experiential things like did we know what a tooth ache felt like etc. But if you are asking, did we know we about tooth aches etc. the answer is yes we knew as much as we could know without experiencing it. What surprise do you think you discovered in this life that you had no discussion about before this life began?

I didn't say that we didn't learn "about" right from wrong .... those are your words. There is a difference between learning about something and experiencing it enough to appreciate what was learned. Did we not know that we would all sin by coming here and therefore need a Savior when we stood in the council in Heaven to choose a side? How did we know what sin was then? The one thing that none of us really learned was how to fight off carnal influences while choosing the right. But that doesn't mean we didn't learn "about" it. We probably better understood that concept than we do even now.

Exactly, and therefore not here to learn "new" facts. We are here to show that we will do the things we are asked to do while under carnal influences. This state is temporary due to a lack of access of the information, not a loss. It is still there, just not accessible, at least for the most part. What is accessible is what we call the light of Christ and even that can become not accessible for some when they harden their hearts.

Great descriptions. Thanks. I think the problem people have though is that it is hard to comprehend how sin can occur without fully having the understanding that God has when he made the laws in the first place. The hardest thing to swallow for some is the idea that we could sin without full knowledge or a "perfect understanding". Sins occur when faith is not sufficient. The definition of "sin", in this world must also include some statement of faith to satisfy the problem most people have about there being sins in the first place. As soon as one realizes that "sin" has to exist only in situations where faith is called upon then there is an immediate realization that full knowledge can not be part of that test, as full knowledge takes away faith. We do not know God's will fully but can have faith in it and His servants. Satan wanted everything before the test of faith. 'Give me all your glory and knowledge and I will make everyone like God' is a lie. The truth is that the molding of our spirits to be more like God requires faith to overcome the sin of demanding knowledge before claiming accountability for the sin. It is a tool of Satan to believe that we have to fully understand the consequences of our actions before sin is possible. "I know not why" I do the will of God but I will do it anyway .... is the way to avoid sin.

Everyone in this world has already proven to God that they believe in the plan of Salvation, that is called passing the first estate. We are not here to prove it over again. We are here to mold ourselves further into beings more similar to God. The difference between knowing the truth and knowingly living the truth is the separating factor. As in D&C 82: " 16 Behold, here is awisdom also in me for your good. 17 And you are to be equal, or in other words, you are to have equal claims on the properties, for the benefit of managing the concerns of your stewardships, every man according to his wants and his needs, inasmuch as his wants are just— 18 And all this for the benefit of the church of the living God, that every man may improve upon his talent, that every man may gain other talents, yea, even an hundred fold, to be cast into the Lord’s estorehouse, to become the common property of the whole church— 19 Every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God. 20 This order I have appointed to be an everlasting order unto you, and unto your successors, inasmuch as you sin not. 21 And the soul that sins against this covenant, and hardeneth his heart against it, shall be dealt with according to the laws of my church, and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption." The issue is, if we don't say it in such a way then people tend to "harden" their heart against the idea that the learning and improving the talents 100 fold is not for self but should only be done with "seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God." That is the factor that takes knowledge (knowledge we already expressed mastery over in the pre-mortal world) and puts it into a usable form for perfection. The knowledge alone will not do anything, it is where our "eye" is that will put it to use. If a person does not do this then the default will happen, which is to harden the heart.

I don't see any difference between the two. The "advantage" is in comparing the person who learns via obedience versus one who learns maybe the same material outside of having their "eye single to the glory of God". If I learn calculus because I want to serve my fellow brothers and sisters and make their lives better then it will be to my advantage as opposed to learning the same material because I want a good job to make lots of money for myself. The principles of obedience and diligence relate to having our "eye single to the glory of God". Two people can do the same "right" thing for different reasons. The one who does it for the right reason will have it counted to their credit, and therefore to their advantage in the end.

Finrock, Are you calling my spirit dumb? (just kidding) You tell me how much we could learn in the presence of God without a veil, receiving direct knowledge from God, pure truth, for thousands if not millions of years. I can tell you it is more than any one person has ever learned in this world while living here under 100 years. Therefore, my spirit definitely knows more than any man has ever learned. And I believe all of that secular learning will come back to me when the veil is lifted, i.e. - after the second estate test is over. In Gospel Principles it says that our spirits were mature, and we learn in other teachings that we learned as much as we could without going any further in our development to become like God, we didn't have a body. Some of us even helped make this world which probably took a little calculus, physics, biology, environmental science, etc. Also, I hate to break the news to you but we are "fallen". The word fallen usually implies a 'lower' status, not a higher one. We cannot lift ourselves up to where we were by ourselves, we need a savior to do that. In other words, we cannot 'learn' our way back to where we were. Upon resurrection we move higher than where we were but that also includes the lifting of the veil and receiving a glorified body. My spiritual learning alone here will not spring me past where I was before by myself. As a fallen spirit I require a Savior to do that.

When I went to High School (O.o revealing age here) I actually had to go to the library, find the books I needed, find the quotes physically, hand write my quotes and references, to use them on the typewriter (that did not have a spell checker - but the dictionary sitting next to the typewriter) and spend 4 to 5 hours writing the term paper. Nowadays, my children that are in High School, hop on the computer, find 3 or 4 papers that are already written on the topic, cut and paste quickly found information with the references embedded on the web page put into the reference page automatically, with spell and grammar checker fixing all their mistakes automatically and finished with a similar paper within a half hour. Are they expected to do more work? Probably. Do we get the same diploma in the end? Yes. My kids do more in less time than I took but receive the same award in the end. The situations are different but keep in mind that the situations are given. Our stewardship in this life is given and variable and cannot be fully seen by man, what we do with it is ours.

I do not think it applies to everything, I think that idea is prideful based in current circumstances. God is not a respecter of persons. All have access to Him and His knowledge. I do not believe I will be at some advantage over my just-as-dedicated brothers and sisters who pioneered and sacrificed everything in the 1840s just because I can study physics or mathematics or medical science in a way they could not. I think that idea is ridiculous. I would put myself above Peter, James and John because I learned the physiology of the hypothalamus? Nonsense.

It says in the scripture you gave with the opening post that the blessing is predicated on the diligence and obedience by which the knowledge was obtained. I don't think one can separate the two issues, knowledge gained and obedience. It is the act of obedience in which the law states the blessing comes. Yes, anyone who obeys more in this life will be resurrected at a level that is advantageous over someone who does not obey as much. I don't think we have to read anything more into that statement than that. I don't think that if person A obeyed the same percent or level based in God's judgement as person B that the two would have any different set of knowledge. The scripture isn't saying that.

Agreed ... and we all signed up for the second estate law and are under the effects of that law by passing the first estate test.

The advantage comes from the process of putting your heart in the right place, not from the facts that are learned. People that are not capable of accountability have already proven their heart is in the right place. The advantage of having the desire to learn and put it into practice comes from the fact that God is all knowing, so it becomes an expression and part of the transformation to make ourselves like God. But, one of the misconceptions about this teaching is that we have to learn a certain number of facts and that the advantage is linearly related to that number. I think that is not true. Think of all that we learned in the thousands if not longer years spent in the presence of God without a veil of confusion or misunderstanding we do here and with the perfect language of communication where nothing is misunderstood. Our spirits were mature when arriving here. What else was there to learn in a secular sense? Nothing else. My spirit knows all the laws of physics, mathematics, biology, communication, social sciences etc. The only thing it didn't know is the experience of having to make those choices in the setting of being behind a veil of confusion and deception that pulls towards carnal desires. So, the learning comes in the form of appreciating the good from the evil, not in any kind of secular fact or detail.

Yes, D&C 82; " 3 For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation." And at the same time Elder Christofferson said; "“… Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: “But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:28, 34–35; see also verses 17–24). “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. “And they [who accompanied Peter] were astonished … because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. “… Then answered Peter, “Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” (Acts 10:44–47). By this experience and revelation to Peter, the Lord modified the practice of the Church and revealed a more complete doctrinal understanding to His disciples. And so the preaching of the gospel expanded to encompass all mankind." In other words, the gospel is for all mankind. I am sure that anyone who is accepting of the gospel whether in this life or the next will have opportunity to express their acceptance of all the principles of it, in some way or another. God is no respecter of persons, meaning everyone will have a chance to receive the gospel in it's fullness.

Sorry I don't have a bunch of time right now but this is a good start; D&C 88 " 104 And this shall be the sound of his trump, saying to all people, both in heaven and in earth, and that are under the earth—for every ear shall hear it, and every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, while they hear the sound of the trump, saying: Fear God, and give glory to him who sitteth upon the throne, forever and ever; for the hour of his judgment is come. 105 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the sixth angel, saying: She is fallen who made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; she is fallen, is fallen! 106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God." Unless you think that "It is finished; it is finished!" (note the exclamation mark) does not really mean "finished" then I am not sure what you think is left over. Also, "every" in this case really means every,(not a soul left out) both in Heaven and on Earth, shall hear and shall bow and every tongue confess. So, if everyone confesses, hears it and bows, and it is finished, then what is it that you hope is left over for the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdom to continue with in their glory? (The glory of which the Telestial kingdom is greater than anything here! Our fallen state is overcome to the point of never having to go this low again - for everybody!!)

Thanks for your response. I think when you use the word "suffering" it brings to mind the human experience, what we feel here and what we actually experience. Having studied neuroanatomy and as a nurse for many years, please tell me something that I do not understand about your statement - What does a one day old experience about death? What can you remember about being one day old? Now, if you tell me, they do not have to remember it, it will be recalled to them, then there is no difference between actually experiencing something and having an experience placed into a person's mind. Because I can tell you from my understanding of human anatomy that a one day old does not have the capacity to maintain any sort of "experience" that you or I would call "experience" and especially in terms of "suffering" the way you are using the word suffering. Not all die at one day old of course, but the point is that even if only one dies at one day old or dies a stillbirth but was quickened inside her mother's womb without ever having any "life" experience then there is one exception to the rule. Therefore, it is not a rule. We do not have to "suffer" anything that is memorable as an experience. It can be obtained vicariously. One great message from the Savior's story is that experiences can be had vicariously. If one of our faith does not believe that then one does not also believe that Christ "suffered" as you are using the word. The thing to keep in mind is that "suffering" can be done vicariously. That is a method that we absolutely believe in. Therefore, experience can also be had vicariously. Of what type and how much, I do not know. But it does not have to be an exclusively individual process. Satan wanted it to be that way, that every individual do their own work and only get credit for their own work. I think he still tries to implant that in our minds today as if that must be a necessary thing. The idea of, you can only experience it for yourself in reality and not vicariously and nobody else can do it for you, is a false idea. Just keep that in mind when we talk about "suffering". Because, the baby that died in one hour of life does not have a brain that is capable of experiencing much of anything at one hour old when it is 5 weeks premature, for example. One cannot "remember" something that was never felt in the first place, it would have to be planted into the "experience" de novo.

Agreed. I think there is a difference between "defining sin" as in the opening post's questions, "what is sin?" versus "Did this person or that person sin?". I don't think anyone was discussing did this person or that person sin. I agree, that would be a judgement left for God. But, that does not preclude us from trying to define sin. I believe the scriptures attempt to teach us the definition of sin. Humans have a tendency to define things based on their current situation. If someone is called poor for example in this country, the same person might be called rich in Bolivia. Those various scales, only God knows about ... what is given and what is required. But, God is not a respecter of persons, all have the opportunity to reach the Celestial Kingdom no matter what the circumstance.

Yes, we don't have the Adamic language! Maybe there was misconception about it because I wasn't making any comment about the Holy Ghost's body or what he could or couldn't do. The only thing I was saying is that he would visit the Telestial Kingdom as it states in Gospel Principles quote I gave. I was explaining to Traveler that if the Holy Ghost visits the Telestial Kingdom then it could not be filled with people that could not stand the presence of the Holy Ghost. That was my point. It could not be a placed filled with sinners, just like here, the Holy Ghost does not reside with sinners.

If I implied that, I apologize. That is not what I was trying to say. Yes, the Holy Ghost is part of the Celestial Godhead. How do you reconcile the Holy Ghost consorting with adulterers then? .... my answer, they have paid for their own sins in hell UNTIL the resurrection as stated in Gospel Principles at which point they are not adulterers or murders because they will receive a resurrected Telestial body that has no propensity for such behavior. It is a body of glory, that equal to the glory of the Holy Ghost as it's head in the same manner that we can host the Holy Ghost in this life, by maintaining a certain level of purity to keep the spirit. If it were not so the Holy Ghost could not rule there. This is the purpose for spirit prison, to allow for the paying up of those sins not covered by Christ. Do those in the Telestial kingdom still have unpaid sins? Then, how could it be a place of glory greater than anything found in this world if they did?

Thank you. I agree with you. Of the two methods you outline to understand good from evil, I would say the second form you provided is by and far the most important and really the only necessary form. I say that because we know that some will die without ever experiencing sin. Experiencing sin is not the best way to understand the difference between good and evil. The best way is to have faith and maintain faith in Christ and therefore appreciating the difference. Those that die before the age of accountability have already shown their level of faith and don't need to prove it further. I would also add to the last paragraph that more importantly than not wanting to suffer from the sins of others, Lucifer did not want to revel in the joy of success of others either. He refused to receive the glory based in someone else' success and yet that is the thing that God is offering to all of us. What makes an individual a Celestial person is to love their neighbor as their self. Which means if person A does something good then person B benefits from that good just as much as person A did. It is the sharing of glory that makes God, God and a Celestial Being. The opposite of that is selfishness, as you know but most importantly the selfishness of success not just bad. Lucifer only wanted credit for his own work and not based on the success of others. But that is because he did not and still doesn't comprehend the way joy becomes eternal, when one can experience the success of others as if you were doing it yourself. Exclusive individual achievement is the satanic plan, whereas shared glory is God's plan, to give all that God has. Could they gather up some new sins over time? No, how would it be a place of glory if they did?

While they are in the spirit world, yes. Until they have paid the price for such a thing and then at that time they will be judged and receive a degree of Glory, which is a state in which no sin can reside. They may refuse to repent but they will still come to a full understanding of what they have done and at that point their suffering is full and eternal but that does not suggest that they will continue to have such desires. Only those that have a spiritual witness to such things and still deny the spirit will become sons of perdition and be cast out. (I think we are just talking about the adulterer who eventually makes it to the Telestial Kingdom) Even the Telestial Kingdom is overseen by the Holy Ghost. Think about how spiritual one has to be to have the Holy Ghost around all the time. The people in the Telestial kingdom will not be doing anything that would chase away the Holy Ghost, otherwise how could they dwell in such a place where the Holy Ghost rules? .... pay attention to the "until" below. Gospel Principles; " Telestial These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)"

What I think you might be getting at (correct me if I am wrong) is the fact that the first estate test was one with full knowledge and the second estate test is one in which it is a test of character in certain circumstances where there is not full knowledge. But, here is the thing to keep in mind, we all passed the first estate test. We all passed the test of wanting to follow God's plan when we were able to hear the full plan. That is who we really are. Everyone in this world fully believes in God's plan, everyone loves God and wanted to be with God bad enough to take the risk we find ourselves in now. In other words, everyone here is willing to sacrifice a mortal life for God. Whether they follow through with that original plan or not is a different story. We don't need to re-pass the first estate test again - we can't get a "higher" score than passing. Passing the first estate test means that all of us want to be like God, all the way and carry out the plan all the way through.