Seminarysnoozer

I agree with your notion of most all of us are not bad (or good for that matter yet) and that we are in testing mode but also I would add that the designation from bad to good is a spectrum, that especially during this testing period varies from moment to moment. I would say the set up for that undetermined status though is the fact that our body is corrupted and our spirit is pure when we enter this world, that is how we have both components of bad and good. But, luckily my body is not me. We flip between what aspect of our dual being we follow at any given moment, the spirit or the carnal. If we put no effort into it though, the natural thing to do is follow the carnal aspects of that influence because it is stronger while here. So, the default, do nothing man is bad. For example, we can repent. We can also sanctify ourselves which is a way of stabilizing that variability that the carnal body brings. We can also do things like put off the natural man and that also lessens our chance to do bad things. It is where we place our heart's desire in the end that will determine what level of glory (good) we receive. So, God will judge based in many unseen variables, what level of goodness we merit but in part based on how badly or how good we acted while here. I heard somewhere that the gospel is to make bad men good and good men better, or something like that. So, it isn't just bad vs, good, you have to also throw in 'better'.

If you do a search on the article you linked, there is no reference to "quickened" so I am not sure how that clarifies that issue. My question is pertaining to the fact that this body is quickened by blood, then theoretically it doesn't need a spirit to be alive, right?

Enoch was not separated from God for a period of time?

To come to this life is called "death". We cannot separate the two. I think that is my point. The basic LDS belief is that death (meaning mortality) is a trial not a punishment. It is like a teenager who says I want a place of my own but I don't want to leave the comforts of my parents home. Well, that cannot be separated from each other, one is inversely related to the other. Likewise to have eternal life we have to have death, they cannot be separated. We wanted to be more like our Heavenly Father and so to do that we have to have separation, responsibility and accountability. The way to test our worthiness for such things is the process of "death" or coming to a temporary mortal life (not a permanent one). To make it temporary requires death. I think we would cry in agony if we thought it was permanent. So, because we knew it was temporary and not permanent then yes, I believe we shouted for joy over the idea that it was temporary death that we were talking about (as well as all the other things that were attached to that plan and purpose of a temporary death which is part of a package deal, not a-la-carte like you are trying to say). Satan, on the other hand tried to convince people in the war in Heaven that this could be permanent, why take the chance? He wrongly thought the plan could do without death. That is a satanic belief that it could be done without death. It is a false belief. He still tries to fight that battle and implant that belief today. Everyone that is here, including you Traveler, didn't see it Satan's way, we all saw it as a positive thing, to be separated from God for a short period of time of which the separation would be called "death". And we knew the whole plan that a Savior would be provided. Adam and Eve stepped up to the plate because they knew they would chose death, as we all agreed to as part of keeping the first estate. Even you chose death (included in the package deal of the first estate test). Gospel Principles describes death as a trial (I didn't come up with that idea on my own - it is a basic LDS belief): "At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. However, we also learned that some would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose their way. We learned that all of us would have trials in our lives: sickness, disappointment, pain, sorrow, and death. But we understood that these would be given to us for our experience and our good (see D&C 122:7). If we allowed them to, these trials would purify us rather than defeat us. They would teach us to have endurance, patience, and charity (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Spencer W. Kimball [2006], 15–16). At this council we also learned that because of our weakness, all of us except little children would sin (see D&C 29:46–47). We learned that a Savior would be provided for us so we could overcome our sins and overcome death with resurrection. We learned that if we placed our faith in Him, obeying His word and following His example, we would be exalted and become like our Heavenly Father. We would receive a fulness of joy."

If this life is called "time", in other words, a period of time that is called "time" then everything outside of the so-called "time" is not "time". To clarify the meaning of that phrase because people would automatically mix up the name of this life "time" with the other definition, passage of time then replace the name "time" with 'probationary period'. So, the phrase would be; this life is a 'probationary period', everything outside this life is not a 'probationary period'. That is all. The word "time" should not be interpreted as the definition of the passage of time in this sense. If I said that that phrase then means, this life there is passage of time and outside this life there is not passage of time, then that would be the wrong definition of the word "time" used. So, it has to be one or the other not both, like you suggest. Or at least, during the discussion the person should make an attempt to distinguish the two definitions. That is my complaint about Gorton's writing, there is no attempt to distinguish the two definitions and so it just adds to the misconceptions about the term "time".

So, currently our body is not quickened by the spirit? What influence does the spirit have over the body then?

You have to define and separate several things before you can have such a discussion. We have to define what aspect of a person is their spirit self versus their physical body make up as we are dual beings. That step alone is why it is impossible for us to judge, because we see the outside man, the carnal physical nature of a man and cannot see their spiritual make up (how they were before this life). God takes all of that into account, the probationary stewardship and their underlying spiritual nature. We know that we were all good before coming here because we all kept the first estate. We have to treat everyone as if they still have a chance to repent and return to that pre-mortal innocence via repentance and Christ' atonement. How much of probationary stewardship personality and traits stay with us is up to God? For example, if someone is given a temporary stewardship of a genetic propensity for alcoholism then we do not know how difficult that challenge is for that person maybe compared to someone else' propensity to eat chocolate or love red meat, etc. Or maybe another person is given a temporary strong amygdala and is quick to be angry and maybe even violent. Is that their spiritual self or their temporary carnal stewardship? Likewise, if someone is given a temporary physical stewardship of great intelligence and is the leading expert in some scientific field, is that their spiritual self or their temporary carnal nature - Satan would love for people to think it was their own self and try to take credit for all the good they do. Where much is given much is expected. The reverse must also be true - where little is given less is expected. The issue is that we cannot judge who has been given more or less as we only see the outside and at best maybe a slight glimpse of people's spiritual self from time to time.

I agree with the tree being good. I disagree with them needing additional instruction. Did things turn out the way they were supposed to or not?

I disagree, I doubt God approaches anything with "if plan A doesn't work, I will go with plan B", he does not vary. I think He would have patiently waited to act the way He knew they would act when He gave them that position in the first place. We vary, but we are not talking about human variability, we are talking about God saying that He will come back with further instruction. I believe, the moment He said that about himself, if that is the case, He knew exactly when and how that was going to happen .... just like it happened.

**sorry** Side note - hope not to detract from the topic but what you posted made me wonder; If he is making a distinction that the body is quickened by the spirit and not by blood, then that implies that a body could be quickened by blood and not the spirit, by blood alone, right? .... interesting. Otherwise, if both our body and the Garden of Eden body is quickened by the spirit, whats the difference?

Thanks. I think this kind of thing is about 50% of all our discussion on this forum is the confusion that occurs between the literal meaning of words and their more metaphoric meaning or symbolic meaning. I agree with what you said above. In fact, I like that symbolic meaning of the word time, meaning a period or an era that has a distinct beginning and end. The problem is that people apply that to the literal meaning of time, as in what is measured by a stopwatch. That doesn't mean that in heaven one can't use a stopwatch. Or that God is capable of traveling back in time. Those scriptures are not referring to that kind of "time", in my opinion. Like the scripture in D&C 88, to me is just saying that once mortality is over there is no going back to it. As opposed to trying to place a literal meaning on the word "time" as if there is no passage of time like what is seen on a clock. Obviously, the word eternal is opposite of finite (using that definition of the word "time"). Dictionary definition of time; "1.the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another. 2.duration regarded as belonging to the present life as distinct from the life to come or from eternity; finite duration. 3.( sometimes initial capital letter ) a system or method of measuring or reckoning the passage of time: mean time; apparent time; Greenwich Time. 4.a limited period or interval, as between two successive events: a long time. 5.a particular period considered as distinct from other periods: Youth is the best time of life. " I think people mix up the use of the word often between definition one and two without distinguishing one from the other. That is what the article you posted is doing. He is making no attempt to distinguish the two definitions.

Moses 4; "30 For as I, the Lord God, liveth, even so my words cannot return void, for as they go forth out of my mouth they must be fulfilled." God does not say that He is going to do something and then not do it. So, He did come back and give them instructions like He said He would; Moses 4: " 21 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 23 And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. 24 Thorns also, and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herb of the field. 25 By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return."

God plans for the future better than anyone. So exact is His planning that He creates things spiritually first. A lack of longing goes against the admonition of Paul, "... we seek after these things." So, we are told to make our character opposite of God's? Where in the world do you get the idea that time is immeasurable to God? Where is it proven that time is bounding? If anything it is liberating and makes more glorious - it is God's work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. "Bringing to pass" requires the measurement of time and the passage of time which is at the heart of God's glory and work. If anything, time is a vital part of God not the lack of time. There is no "moment" without the passage of time. Moment has no meaning without time. The word "closer" has no meaning without the passage of time because you would have to compare two points in time to use the word "closer". The idea of time not existing or the lack of passage of time etc is a man made idea, so it is impossible to really answer your question about a man made idea without it being a made up answer. This is not to say that God perceives the passage of time differently than we do; I can somewhat contemplate and understand that, but there still is passage of time.

I agree, but the "open door" to that sealing is the fact that there are conditions attached to it, just like every covenant. So, just because something was done here on Earth and we know it can be binding in Heaven doesn't necessarily mean it is, the conditions have to be met also. So, your last sentence should be taken with the caveat of having met all the attached conditions.

I really don't want to have the whole conversation over again, so read through what I posted if you want to. This is why I said, it depends on whether it is permanent or not. And then Traveler came back with 'death is death'. He doesn't care if it is temporary or permanent it is the same to him. I think you are saying the same things I have said. I have said that because there was a plan, a Savior, who provides life, just like you are saying, then this mortality, in sum total does not equal death - we are saved from death (mortality), it is not a permanent condition and therefore not punishment, just a trial. As it was presented to us in the premortal life we knew we would have a Savior, so we viewed the whole process as something that was not eternal death and therefore not punishment but a way forward. That is why we shouted for joy. We looked at this life as an opportunity to move forward and not a punishment but an advancement. I never used the word "blessing", that is you putting words in my mouth. "Death" in this sense is equal to a probationary state, a temporary separation from the presence of God. As it states very clearly in Gospel Principles chapter 3; "When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the premortal spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7). We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time. We would not live in the presence of our Heavenly Father. While we were away from Him, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we would need help, so He planned a way to help us." Even the people you mentioned who did not experience the act of the mortal body separation from the spirit, still experienced spiritual death as described in Gospel Principles. So, why was Enoch "punished" in that way if you believe death = punishment? Or why is the baby who dies within one hour of life "punished"? Please answer that if you take such a hard and fast description of death = punishment.

No. .... why? Arguing against what Traveler is saying; that this life is a punishment for everyone is not synonymous with saying it is a blessing for everyone. The only people in which this life becomes a source of punishment and not glory are those that do not receive a level of glory, by definition. That is pretty easy to figure out. What is required to prove that this life is a punishment for everyone is to show that everyone who came here needed punishment (like the person born with blindness Jesus talked about); in other words, everyone who came here did something wrong before they were assigned to come here and over those that didn't come here. That is the opposite thinking to what we know happened in the premortal world. So, it is on his shoulders to prove that the baby who dies within one hour of life did something wrong to be "punished" by this death. If we are not here because we did something "wrong" then it is simply trials (or "misery and woe" as explained in Moses) that we face, not "punishment". Traveler rejected that definition.

Every example you gave relates to the body; birth, death and when we listen to the influences of the imperfect, corrupted and carnal body more than the spirit (veil of imperfection).

Then what exactly did we shout for joy about in the pre-mortal world upon learning that we would die? Robert Millet; "The Latter-day Saint view of the events in Eden is remarkably optimistic. We believe that Adam and Eve went into the Garden of Eden to fall, that their actions helped “open the way of the world,” 7 and that the Fall was a part of the Father’s foreordained plan. “Adam did only what he had to do,” President Joseph Fielding Smith said. “He partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world, for Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden of Eden; they could have been there to this day, if Eve hadn’t done something.” 8 Because the Fall (like the Creation and the Atonement) is one of the three pillars of eternity, and because mortality, death, human experience, sin, and thus the need for redemption grow out of the Fall, we look upon what Adam and Eve did with great appreciation rather than with disdain. “The fall had a twofold direction—downward, yet forward. It brought man into the world and set his feet upon progression’s highway.” 9 As Enoch declared, “Because that Adam fell, we are” (Moses 6:48; see 2 Ne. 2:25)." John 9: " 1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." Moses 6: " 48 And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe. 49 Behold Satan hath come among the children of men, and tempteth them to worship him; and men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and are shut out from the presence of God." As Jesus explained, nobody sinned to be born into this world with misery and woe and it's associated death. We are made partakers of the misery and woe so that works are manifest (not necessarily as punishment). What is the child who dies within one hour of life being "punished" for? Please explain. Is it possible for a person to experience more "punishment" in their life then they deserve? Does someone with Down's syndrome deserve that "punishment"?

My husband accuses me of using too many metaphors all the time, so there we go, that is how I get myself into trouble .... that was a good one! I think our perspective here is so skewed that we often put way more weight into this life's experience then needs be. In fact that becomes the test, are the treasures of this world more important than the treasures of the heavens? I think if we ask ourselves that question in all things - even marriage, then we might have the right perspective. I think in an eternal perspective, our relationships can continue to the next but we may look back at it as strongly (or as little) as who we sat next to in Kindergarten. Does who you sat next to in Kindergarten affect your college entry exam or where you went to college? By comparison, I would think our life's detailed experience means about that much. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not talking about the huge fork in the road this life is, whether we pass the second estate or not, I am just talking about the details of how we pass it. So long as we cross the "line" in the line upon line learning, then we move on and our stewardship changes. When we become an adult we put away childish things - I think we will look at this life similarly in the eternal perspective. This life is our lowest point, I don't know if we would want to hold onto the details of the lowest point as a badge on our sleeve. Even then, it could still remain as a fond memory and a historical foundation for growth that one retells at the Celestial campfire. I doubt that it will serve as a distinguishing characteristic amongst Celestial beings though, as in "I had this experience and you didn't." "I sat next to Brad in Kindergarten and you didn't." (....who cares?) Do people who are "high school sweethearts" and get married have a stronger, more meaningful marriage than those who are not "high school sweethearts"? .... I don't think it will matter much, even if it will be a fun and cute thing to say.

You have access to a computer and the internet connection. That makes it so that you more than most people in this world already - that's nothing to have despair over. Treasures of this world turn to dust and God doesn't forget the trials you go through. D&C 122; " 5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea; 6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to bprison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like cwolves for the blood of the lamb; 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the bdeep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to chedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee eexperience, and shall be for thy good. 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?" Sometimes the test of despair is the test of this life. Satan loves despair, the opposite of the admonition of Paul, hope in all things.

Punishment requires a judgement. Why is there a "final judgement" if what you are saying is occurs on a continual basis? We would have already been judged at every turn, there would be nothing left to judge if the consequence of our action was immediate and based on some algorithmic formula that what we put in is calculated and results in what we get out. We know that this is not true during this life time. A person who studies and trains to be a gun for hire, a mercenary, who kills people for a living could do this for his whole life, make money and be successful in such a career (hypothetically). What punishment resulted from the action, hypothetically not much but immediate reward in exchange for giving up his future inheritance. When will the punishment occur for that individual? At the final judgement when there is no further opportunity to change. So, your example of punishment used to modify behavior is not applicable to the behavior for such an individual, therefore they are permanently punished, or eternally punished in that it does not modify behavior. Not to say that they will suffer forever it is just that they will not have a chance to take the test over again. That is the difference between immediate consequences and the final judgement. It is the final tally that determines whether a punishment is eternal or temporary. And if it is temporary it is only for our benefit and so the sum is one that is positive not negative. I think this is a basic doctrine of our gospel that it is possible to build up earthly treasures without building treasures in Heaven. Is building up Earthly treasures a punishment? Not yet necessarily but it will be. I think this is a bit of semantics. Maybe the word to use is not "punishment" but trials. I think you are more talking about trials. I really hope in the end I do not look back at this life as a "punishment" and say to myself, 'boy, I should have listened to Satan, I shouldn't have gone." I believe I will say to my Heavenly Father, "thank you" and in doing so, not look at this life as a punishment when I have the eternal perspective but look at this life as a necessary trials for my personal growth and refinement. D&C 122:" 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?"

Thanks. This (in bold) is a very good question that I don't think we have all the knowledge yet to answer. I think this may be where our trip-up on this topic may lie. I think that choice is not going to be as difficult as you are making it out to be. Let me just throw out a thought that I already know I am going to get beat up over after I put this out there but oh well ... When one is Christ-like enough to take on the image of Christ in their countenance and is glorified with the single Celestial body, as the glory of the sun is "one" and receives all that God has to offer by making it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, in other words that man has 100% of what Christ and God have, what specific distinguishing feature do you expect to find in such an individual that would distinctly and uniquely identify that man as something different than any other man there outside of the history of how they got there? The only distinguishing identifier is the history, 'I was this', 'I was like that', once a person arrives at the great 'I am' I don't think they are going to lay claim to any specific identifier of less than that as something glorious or desirable. If we desire all that God has, then why hold onto the part? This is why the choice would not be very difficult, like looking at 30 jugs of milk in the grocery store sitting on the shelf, does it really matter which one you take? If you think about it, what you are trying to say is that qualities that an individual might have different from another would be looked at as valuable, 'I have this and you don't'. 'I have this history with this person and you don't'. I think people who think like that will not be in the Celestial Kingdom, there is a place for that, the Telestial Kingdom where the glory of one star differs from another in wide variability. Part of this test we face is to love your neighbor as yourself. If everyone in the Celestial Kingdom is 100% loving their neighbor as their self, they will not hold onto individual histories as something they would hold over or view as better or worse than another. They would look at everyone as equal. And we are to try to practice that view as much as we can while here, to learn to like such circumstances. Uniqueness and selfishness, the way I see it, are pretty close cousins.

But because we use those terms interchangeably (as we do a lot of religious terms) this is why I was trying to clarify to Traveler that the "death" is temporary, the "punishment" is also temporary. I think this is why real "punishment" is clarified by the word "endless" sometimes as in endless torment or eternal as in eternal suffering or permanent death as with what happened to Satan and his followers. I agree with what you are saying, that "punishment" or learning by trial and error can be useful and allow a person to grow in ways they couldn't otherwise. But God always hopes that He doesn't have to use "punishment" as a tool, just like He doesn't have to use it on infants that die with only minutes in this world. Humility is a blessing. Repentance is a blessing. I think Adam and Eve view those two things as blessings. It is all a matter of perspective. I think the opening post question was very smart in putting in the phrase "and at which point?" because that is the real question. At one point did they view it as "punishment"? Sure, just like when my child thinks that the time-out is punishment as opposed to pulling the child away from worse consequences. When one does not see the end of the path of the other path not taken as worse, then they may view it as "punishment". But, if one looks at the alternative as being a worse option, then this path is not "punishment". I think the trip up that a lot of people have is that they some how view staying in the Garden of Eden as a better choice. If one believes that then I can see how this life would be viewed as a "punishment" but we both know that staying in the Garden of Eden was not the better of the two choices as it is a limiting choice and is not on the path to Godhood.

I agree with the above. In addition, I think He also wept because He had to wait a while to perform that miracle to show to the unbelievers His true power which is to create life (which relates to the power of resurrection but also shows that this is on the same spectrum of creation, the creation-resurrection power). He waited until Lazarus body was decomposing, by then his brain would have been mush, neurons are all dead, just chemicals floating in a mix of goo. So, Christ had to recreate the billions of neurons in connecting it exactly as it was so that Lazarus would have the same personality and same set of memories etc. that his former brain had. He had to recreate the natural process that would normally take 15 years to do within a matter of minutes. That is the power of creation demonstrated that is not of "natural" means. I think, in part, He wept because of the unbelief of the people, that He would have to go to such measures to show His power as opposed to just saving him immediately. Even today, despite the record, people question whether God could create a body outside of procreation, ignoring this powerful witness of such power - I think that is why Christ wept too (And probably still feels the same way).

I 100% agree with everything you say here but would add one small caveat which is that the purpose of the covenants is to facilitate or sometimes even cause the transformation of heart that is needed to be worthy of the promises of the covenant. In other words, the act of doing the covenant shouldn't be made more important than the purpose it serves which is to help us become more like God in character (heart). With that God does not just look at whether a covenant was done or not but where the heart is while meeting the demands of the covenant. Some souls are Christ-like enough, apparently, for God to know that they do not need to suffer or feel sorrow or the pains of sin and they can move on to the next phase. That part of it is not a hard requirement except for those that have to, which is all that live into the age of accountability and are capable of having that accountability. To say that suffering or punishment is required is to spin it in a way that puts the test itself above the purpose of the test, in my view. Do you think Christ saw His life as "punishment"?