Seminarysnoozer

I think your interpretation of "seeds" could use a little searching and pondering (at least as it pertains to the LDS religious use of the term). From LDS.org definition of seed of Abraham; "Seed of Abraham. The heirs of the promises and covenants made to Abraham, and obtained only by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Men and women become heirs by faithfulness to covenant obligations whether they are literally of Abraham’s lineage or by adoption. See Gal. 3:26–29; 4:1–7; D&C 84:34; 103:17; 132:30; Abr. 2:9–11. Literal seed may also lose their blessings by disobedience, as in Rom. 9:6–8. Cf. JST Matt. 3:36–37; JST Luke 3:13–14. It is not obtained via offspring. The only seed anyone will have is based on their obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel whether they are literally of the lineage or adopted. And even those that are literal descendants only are called "seed" if they are obedient. So, really the only people that will be called "seed" has nothing at all to do with offspring. Also, I am starting to take a little offense (and I am one usually hard to offend) that a woman in the next life couldn't pump out an offspring as quickly as a man. There is no indication that in the next life the limiting factor of offspring is some female gestational period. I believe in a Savior who actually overcomes the effects of the Fall. My belief is that He overcomes all the effects of the Fall, that is how powerful my Savior is. I don't about the Savior you are depending on that can't overcome that aspect of the Fall. (Wow, I feel like I need to go watch a couple hours of Ellen DeGeneres while I thumb through this months O and then spend a couple hours on Loft.com just to chelate all the testosterone from this thread that I feel saturated with.)

Exactly! ... that has been stated by several in different ways, such as my post #10; What person in this life has not had or will not have a bad thing happen to them? We are all fallen creatures, we all die, we all live in corruption.

And by Jesus submitting himself to the Father, He is made one with Him and is given all that the Father has.

Thanks for your comments. I agree with you. I want to clarify that I was talking about people who are not the victims and not the witness to a crime etc. as well as not talking about those who have been employed to do a certain job to carry out the law. I am more talking about the result of "fighting for justice" that puts in a person's heart the desire that a certain person "pays" for their crime right now. Like the stirring up of that emotion by watching the evening news. I think that thought of "fight for justice" may be a subtle tool of Satan to stir up contention and hatred and even fear. I wish people wouldn't fall into that trap. Then Satan wins twice, the perpetrator and the fallout of hatred that follows.

So, in this example you gave, you think that a "fight for justice" alleviates the outcome of the horrible event? In the eyes of a devout LDS woman who understands and wholeheartedly believes in the justice of God, which rapist is set free? Free from the all seeing eye of God? Of course, nobody is perfect in this life but when we talk about what we should be doing, such as in this situation, is it to be angry with the perpetrator or show love to him? Love your enemy - I don't think that phrase is a nothing phrase, or does it really mean nothing. I am not trying to be cold, I have a close girlfriend who was raped. I have actually done my share of "fighting for justice" for her even but all I found was hatred in my heart. The most effective thing I could do for her was console her and mourn with her and help remind her that the rapist does not escape the all seeing eye of God and her sufferings are noted by God. There is only one who could make it right if the individual doesn't repent.

Thanks for your comments. Yes, I think when I used the phrase "fight for justice" automatically people would think I am talking about "justice" alone. I tried to make it clear that I am talking about the pitfalls of "fighting for justice" for justice sake alone, meaning nobody is currently being victimized by whatever the issue, the slap across the cheek has come and gone ... now what? Do you fight or turn the other cheek? It is like money being different from the "love of money". I realize this but that is why I am saying some of these shows, even news shows as well as fictional shows about "justice" glorify the idea of reaching justice or fighting for justice ... "I won't rest until justice is served!" kind of attitude. As if that attitude is a praiseworthy one. Is that our job or God's? Can justice really be carried out in this life, earthly justice can but I don't know if the one that is really worth fighting over can, which is the kind of justice in which the demands of justice are met, through the Savior, by repentance or punishment. So, the battle shouldn't be for justice, but for repentance. I think there is a difference when we think of it that way. I really doubt "Law and Order" is going to have an episode that ends with "Repentance served!"

Why isn't this our (meaning LDS people) sense of justice; "26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them" And 2 Nephi 9: "17 O the greatness and the justice of our God! For he executeth all his words, and they have gone forth out of his mouth, and his law must be fulfilled." And Ecclesiastes 5: " 8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they." And JST Luke 3:" 9 To administer justice unto all; to come down in judgment upon all, and to convince all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds, which they have committed; and all this in the day that he shall come; 10 For it is a day of power; yea, every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways made smooth;" And 3 Nephi 20:"20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles." And I think this is the pitfall of "fighting for justice"; 3 Nephi 14:"2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Maybe we should be fighting for repentance and not "fighting for justice".

I think I agree with everything you are saying but I am looking at it from the perspective of the individual who is "fighting for justice". Not necessarily the people who are in the business of fighting for justice but of the person who takes up that banner just for the sake of "justice" alone, i.e. - there is no personal or family member tangible benefit other than some hard to understand value of being able to say the phrase "justice was served". The fight is simply for that statement, nothing else. In other words, what, in those cases, would be lost if "justice wasn't served"? The only thing lost is the person who was fighting for justice's lost time and a peacemaker, turn-the-other-cheek spirit swapping it for a contentious one.

Thanks for your comments, that is a good example. So, "justice served" needs to be couched with mercy to be served well. I guess what I was also asking about where these cases in which "justice" does not directly affect the individuals who are contentious over it. If one argues who is right about a case seen on TV for example, that "justice served" seems like it is nothing to fight over. Or even in cases where, say a family member was killed, even if "Justice is served" here in this life (not taking about God's justice) what good did that do the family member. And even if it did some good, does Satan win in the end because all along as the person was "fighting for justice" they had contentious hearts, anger and would do anything, even disregard the needs of their own family for a period of time or pay large sums of money to a lawyer to "fight for justice". You think, even then, it is valuable? My feeling is that God will take care of "justice" and balance it out with mercy without the "fight". That doesn't mean we can't stand up for what is right and state the truth with conviction but to do it all in the name of "justice" seems like not a good fight to get into. An example of that are these "cold cases" where the victims and maybe even the perpetrator are long gone. I think God will tie up all those loose ends just fine. What is the eternal value of earthly justice (not God's) won or lost, in other words?

You would like me to believe that something that is not necessary is what God practices? If one receives the "fullness" of the Father and one is "one" with the Father and the Son, then the mathematical term I think you would want to use is = not infinity. Are there two different kinds of "all"? Or does "all" = "all" or is "all < "all"? "Endless posterity" is possible when all is shared otherwise it become finite. Personal achievement and individual possession is limited. It is not bad, just limited. What is the difference in the value of a relationship in terms of glory between; a brother and a brother and a sister and a sister and a brother and a sister etc. .....? You want to tell me that one brother or one sister is more valuable than another while in the Celestial Kingdom. I don't believe it. There is nothing in our gospel that says that that is true with the exception of marriage but even then it is not that far off. Do you think God loves His wife more than you? How about if one makes it to the Celestial Kingdom, what possession does God's wife have that any other individual will not have? Does she possess more love? A deeper connection? If so, then something is hidden from the others, something is kept from the inheritance. The inheritance is not full. I don't know how that will work exactly but I believe in a full inheritance not a subset. I believe in a plan of Salvation in which there is a potential for having no value difference between something that is individually possessed versus the value of the possession of another. Now, please do not misquote that statement or misinterpret it, I said; "the value". In other words, the accomplishments of person A is equally enjoyed by person B when person B has perfect love for person A, it is as if person B accomplished the thing by his or her self. It is "as-if" but not actual, so don't misinterpret what I am saying. I am not saying anything of the sort of sharing spouses etc, which some might interpret that way, I am simply saying the joy and glory of any act of those in the highest Celestial Kingdom is not kept under a bushel or behind locked door for the individual alone. There is a place for that though if one prefers that kind of living, where one star varies from another star. So, if one learns to love that idea of selfish achievement and puts that into their heart, God will grant such a wish and provides such a place.

The other day I was watching a local news program about a story of two families who had family members that were involved in a horrible and controversial event. The story was about a young couple who had died in a horrible way. The family of one of the members of the couple stated that it was the other who caused the death of their family member and the other family argued back that that could not be the case. The case has been going on for years now without much progress in figuring out the truth. The story keeps coming back to the news as they think they have another piece of evidence that might solve the mystery of how they died. In the meantime, the two families have grown more contentious and outwardly hate each other even though before this event they didn't really know each other (it seems). At the end of the story one of the sisters says; "I just want justice served!" I wonder about the value of "justice served" in this life. Is it really that valuable. It seems to only cause a point of contention and argument, one side arguing for one side of the case and the other defending their position, in the end even if "justice is served" the resultant hatred from one side to the other seems almost greater than the event that started the argument in the first place. As the world fights for worldly "justice" I think many of my LDS friends get sucked into the whirlwind of such arguments, taking sides for one or the other and making the talk around the 'water cooler' a place for continued contention even though there is no direct connection between the event and their self. They, in essence, have adopted the "fight for justice" as a reason to have an argument. I think partly TV is to blame, but I think in general there is a love for "justice" that is not healthy or I should say spiritually healthy. Some things we should say, 'let God take care of the justice'. The extreme is the Jerry Springer type shows that is a blatant love for the fight or even "Cheaters" but I think to some degree even fictional stories like "L.A. Law" "Law and Order" etc. foster the love for the "fight for justice". My question is; Is this a danger to our soul or not? Answer with this in mind by Marvin J. Ashton; "...Certain people and organizations are trying to provoke us into contention with slander, innuendos, and improper classifications. How unwise we are in today’s society to allow ourselves to become irritated, dismayed, or offended because others seem to enjoy the role of misstating our position or involvement. Our principles or standards will not be less than they are because of the statements of the contentious. Ours is to explain our position through reason, friendly persuasion, and accurate facts. Ours is to stand firm and unyielding on the moral issues of the day and the eternal principles of the gospel, but to contend with no man or organization. Contention builds walls and puts up barriers. Love opens doors. Ours is to be heard and teach. Ours is not only to avoid contention, but to see that such things are done away. “For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. “Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.” (3 Ne. 11:29, 30.) We need to be reminded that contention is a striving against one another, especially in controversy or argument. It is to struggle, fight, battle, quarrel, or dispute. Contention never was and never will be an ally of progress. Our loyalty will never be measured by our participation in controversy." And D&C 136: " 23 Cease to contend one with another; cease to speak evil one of another."

This is the way my husband and I explained it to our kids but this is just as an example to help understand the concepts; (Remember though, all metaphors have their parts of inexactness.) Imagine a young adult who says "I am ready to leave the house and make it on my own to prove that I can do it on my own. I want to do this so I can learn responsibility and accountability." The parents, in response, say; "Okay, I like the fact that you want to learn responsibility and accountability and have the agency, in fact we encourage you to do it. But, if you really want to do that then I will have to give you the freedom to do it. What that means is that once you leave the door with those intentions (once you eat of the tree of death - the tree of knowledge of good and evil) you will be cut off from our bank account and you will no longer be sleeping in this house (you will be cut off from the tree of life). You can decide when you are ready for such a decision (Hang out in the garden until you are ready). We will leave it up to you." The child has to decide between going out on their own and therefore learning responsibility and accountability or she could stay in the house for a longer period of time until she is ready. But once she makes that decision then she is cut off, because if not then there is no real opportunity to learn those things. (My husband always likes to throw in the comment; "You gotta cut the umbilical cord at some point") Of course the parents in that metaphor would also say; "Now if you need any assistance, you just give us a call and if you need advice on how to proceed we are here to give it to you." And, "Remember all the instruction we have given you on how to be successful in such an endeavor, to be successful you will have a guide and instruction" (A Savior and gospel, Holy Ghost, etc. is provided to ensure success) The process will determine who much you will faithfully follow your parents instructions or try to pave your own individual path. Hope that helps. By the way, it is not just Adam and Eve that made that decision, we all did, individually.

I think this is a very good point. So, how do you view Polygamy then, as a doctrine or a principle?

There are many conditions implicit to the sealing for time and ALL ETERNITY. If you think you know the Celestial Law that well, more power to you. Eligibility means everything. In this life we are judged by what is in our heart and our actions that reflect it. To be eligible for the blessings of the everlasting covenant one has to live worthy of such a thing to be eligible for it. This is what we are after. Anyone who has the love of Christ in their heart would want all of their brothers and sisters to have that same opportunity to be eligible for the fullness of those blessings. Therefore, covenants are made, sometimes on behalf of someone else who cannot do it for themselves. We do that in other circumstances without batting an eye. Why is it so far of a stretch to even consider (since the thought of polygamy in the next life is also just a consideration and not doctrine) that there are many souls who die before the age of 8 or who live this life with mental retardation to the point of not being accountable for their actions. Is their destiny to never marry or to only marry those that had similar circumstances? Could it be possible that a young man who died before the age of 8 be eligible to have those everlasting blessings shared with a woman who lived a full accountable life here in mortality or is that young man always destined to only share his eternities with someone who had similar circumstances. I present this not as doctrine but to allow you to expand your thought process as to the possibility that God has a greater purpose for such Earth-only practices. Let me ask you this, could Elder Oak's "fullness of joy" be full with only one spouse? Or, in your view, he would fall short of eternal joy with only one spouse? I can tell you one thing for sure, God does not vary. If polygamy is the practice of those in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom then it is the practice of all who are in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. Such an important thing could not vary. This is an all or nobody type issue.

I have always felt that question has metaphoric meaning that could be applied to all of us. We are made blind by the veil. Why? So, we can better understand the glory of God. Every one of us, not just people with horrific diseases and outwardly obvious difficulties. We all have been born into corruption, we are all born with mortal bodies and under the veil blinded to our past.

That is the greatest commandment. Love is what allows us to enjoy the experiences of others. Think about the only way to have endless joy, it can't be done with personal achievement alone, there would be a limit to that. The way it becomes eternal and endless is if is dependent on the success of others. We can only enjoy the success of others if we love them as ourselves. To a small degree, for example, we experience this when our child does well in school. Why is it that I feel more joy when my child gets an A in class whereas when the child who may sit right next to mine gets an A, I don't feel the same magnitude of joy? It is because it has to do with the level of love that I have for my own child. If that kind of love is extended towards everyone around us, which will be the character of all those who make it into the Celestial Kingdom, by definition, then whenever any Celestial being does something praiseworthy we all feel the joy that comes from that act. That is how our joy can be eternal. This is the message of the gospel, to teach us to learn to like that kind of living. The more selfish a person is, the more they just look at their own achievements as a source of happiness the more like Satan they become and their joy is limited. True happiness comes from finding joy in the success of others. And that is only possible when we love our neighbor as our self. Marriage is the tool that magnifies that capacity more than any other while in this life. I think having children is a close second to that power. Then, we try to extend that out to our greater family, the ward and then the people in our ward boundary, etc. It all starts with the family but the intention is to expand that same love to everyone, the greater family.

What about the love we had for each other before this life began that is now being covered by the veil? Did Jesus not know us personally before this life? We did not have some of that kind of relationship with our fellow brothers and sisters? It is not that it will magically appear, it is kind of like returning home after summer camp, I think one realizes how much they love their family after being away for a while. I believe it will be increased with the perspective we obtain here and we will build upon such love. Everyone here loved Christ and His plan, thus keeping their first estate. Some don't show love towards Christ here but when the veil is removed will realize their error. Since I don't know how the veil really works, it is almost like "magic" but we tend to call it faith or having a broken heart, etc.

What person in this life has not had or will not have a bad thing happen to them? We are all fallen creatures, we all die, we all live in corruption. Jesus has descended below them all, are those missionaries greater than He?

So, you believe that whatever commandment we are given in this life, by definition, it is one that will have to continue onto the next? What about animal sacrifice? What about circumcision? What about fast offerings? We will definitely be continuing that law in the next life? What about partaking of the sacrament, we will be definitely doing that every Sunday in the next life? I disagree with your assumption that a law given in this life is one that definitely has to continue onto the next. There are laws and commandments designed to help us through this life and to bring us closer to God and His will that will be overcome and overpowered by simply being in His presence. There are examples of laws that are fulfilled in our gospel, meaning we don't practice them anymore and never will. They could still be laws that for those people during that time in which they are given are the set of laws by which they will be judged worthy or not to enter into the Celestial Kingdom and only in that way continue onto the day of final judgement for them but not necessarily for us. ... otherwise we all better go find some lambs to sacrifice.

One of my good friends is married to her second husband in the temple after her first husband who she also married in the temple died in Iraq and she has two kids from the first husband. ... this doesn't prove or show anything about the potential or need for polygamy in the next life for me or this friend of mine.

I wouldn't worry about an issue that is not an issue either. Nobody is going to be married to anybody who is not "good". That statement made by the "lady in your ward" is ridiculous.

Thanks, that response helps me understand where you are coming from. I also believe there is a connection between past and future lives as would anyone who believes in the plan of salvation but the problem that I am getting at is that some want to believe there is a linear connection between the three. That is what I was trying to get from you if that is what you believe but apparently your view of that is not that specific or I am having a hard time getting it from you, one of the two. The questions pertained to your last sentence there, "...directly connected before birth and beyond death to eternity." ... in what way? was the question. There are some that believe whatever body they have here is somehow connected to the type of body they will have in the next. I was wondering if that might be the reason you would think that genetic manipulation might be advantageous. It seems now you are saying (like I offered as an example to you to see if that is how you thought of it) that it might be like anything that is praiseworthy, like learning to play the piano etc. Your views of why genetic manipulation may be good is simply from the act of doing anything that is good ... is that right? That is what I get from what you are saying. The good is just intrinsic to being involved in anything that is good, whether it be genetic manipulation versus learning the words of a hymn or taking dinner to a neighbor .... its all good. Or, is there something about genetic manipulation that would change the future eternal life of a person because the genes were changed in this life? I don't think there is a "direct" connection as it is not linear and it is also variable. Some people that were noble are born with deficiencies in this life and yet we know that some that are high (in this life) will be made low, etc. We can't tell by looking at someone's genes how well they did in the previous life. In the same light, I believe we cannot tell how well the outcome will be for any person by looking at their genes from this life. I think it is a variable relationship, not a direct one. I am curious why you think it might be "direct" and how it is "direct", between mortal genes and eternal make up.

Which supports the view that we have no information as to why polygamy would be needed or beneficial in the next life.

If the world is not wicked then there is no need for a Savior. That is exactly what Satan wants us to believe. Thee is a difference between having a focus on good versus ignoring the need for a Savior. I agree with focusing on the good as I believe most LDS do as that is one of our articles of faith to do that thing, the admonition of Paul but we also believe that a Savior is necessary and can appreciate exactly what He has done for us. If the world is not wicked then Christ did nothing for the world. We believe in the admonition of Paul which is the same King Benjamin spoke of as well as Joseph Smith. "We are all enlisted till the conflict is or' Happy are we!!!! Happy are we!!!!" "Glad to join the army, we shall gain the victory by and by, Dangers may gather why should we fear?" "We shall in win and wear it by and by" "Loving hearts are happy, while we work and play. God is the heaven, Joyous is our day!" "Come come ye saints, no toil or labor fear, but with JOY wend your way!!!" Mormon 9:14; " 14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still." The trick is to live in the world without being of the world. I can be happy while in the world without having to say that the world is a happy place (in general). Separating oneself from the world is the process of happiness. Being married to the world and calling it something it isn't is not happiness.

I am talking about this life. I don't equate my set of genes that I have in this life with the ones I will have for eternity. Maybe that is where we are not crossing paths in our discussion. I was always talking about this life only as I thought you were. The question about what genetic manipulation could be taken to affect our eternal destiny was only related to this life. I don't think there is any "genetic" factor that I would want to change about the body in the next life. So, to me that is an absurd idea. I have never thought of it in terms of changing the resurrected body genetics and there was nothing in what you said that seemed like you could be possibly talking about the next life's body. I have always considered our discussion to be only about this body here, the one that could potentially be manipulated, not the perfected one that by definition could not have any "gene pool" manipulation. The question was what specific set of genes could you change of this mortal, temporary, corrupted body that we have been loaned that would affect our eternal destiny, if one thinks they could somehow manipulate the "gene pool" like you suggested? In other words, why would such a pursuit have any eternal consequence more than just simply saying 'anything of good report is worth pursuing' like learning how to play the piano or how to make a campfire without matches, etc? What specifically is the eternal benefit of changing one's mortal genes (not the resurrected genes) that you are implying by asking the question about the "gene pool"? If we consider everyone's situation now, which includes the mortal body by designating it as a different numbered test, i.e. - test version #1, test version #2, test version #3 etc. etc., why would the outcome of the test be different if I took test #5,407 as opposed to test # 6,790? To me, as I know God takes into account all the variables of this test, including the genetic make up of our temporary body, I know the test results will be the same no matter what version of the test is taken. Therefore, I see no benefit in changing the version of the test. If I was able to change the test version from #2,908 to #203, it would ultimately make no difference in the outcome. But you are trying to say it would. So, I am trying to understand your reasoning there.