Seminarysnoozer

How is it obvious? If they did not know the plan then they did not eat the fruit intentionally, they did it by accident or on a whim or they really were deceived. ...then praise be to the deceiver for allowing us to be here?!?

If we fully understood it then there would be no reason to do it. I don't think one can "fully" understand something without actually going through the process. And since Jesus and Adam had never gone through the process there is knowledge gained by experiencing it. If you throw in words like"fully" or "to that extent" of course there is no argument there. As a result of this life we will have added knowledge, although it may not be added until we get back what we previously knew. All we are told to do is have faith and obey, we don't have to fully understand the 'whys' in this life. Like my male OB doctor will never know what it is like to be pregnant or give birth but his technical understanding surpasses mine. Even if you believe Adam was re-taught the gospel in the Garden I can't imagine that his understanding was anything less than what we 'technically' know about the plan. If God is right there, I can't see how one of our most intelligent brothers would not have asked, "Why is it that I will die if I eat this fruit?" and "If I die, how will it be possible to return to your presence?" He was innocent but he wasn't ignorant. The experience that we get here is a secondary benefit of our lives. It is not the primary purpose. We can say that because we know that those that die before the age of accountability can still make it into the Celestial Kingdom. In other words, what we learn here is not 'the plan' but the significance of the plan when we are accountable for our choices between good and evil. We have no basis to say that receiving an immortal body requires relearning everything in the previous life. The only thing we know for sure is that receiving a mortal body is associated with forgetting our time in the pre-existence. Otherwise, when we receive our immortal body after this life, will we forget everything we learned here or again forget everything we learned in the pre-existence? I don't think so. Being put into an immortal, perfect body does not automatically cause forgetting everything. Why is it important for you to say that Adam didn't know the plan? To me, it is more powerful to say that Adam even knowing what he would put everyone through, still went ahead with it. We know that he was already okay with that just like the rest of us because that was what we had to agree to to keep our first estate. ...thanks

I'll respond to these statements since you put them in as an edit after I already responded to what you had there before. And by the way, I appreciate your responses, I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to understand where you are coming from and hoping to expand my understanding. Thanks for responding. I think those things you listed are pieces of the test as it pertains to the test. The faith based test of offering a sacrifice is only needed when faith is needed. Again, I think that was something his eyes were closed to before he partook of the fruit. For point number 2, do you think that when Adam fought valiantly for Jesus Christ in the war in heaven he didn't understand Jesus' role in the plan. That seems strange to me. Was his supporting statement something to the effect of "hey Jesus is really cool, vote for Him." "That Satan guy is mean, don't follow him." If there really was a "war" of words, it must have not lasted very long if they didn't really understand the significance of Jesus' role in the whole thing and that we would run the risk of sinning and needing repentance. If anything, I am sure Satan brought up that point, that we may fail and have to pay the consequences for sinning. Point 3, the endowment is given only after passing the first parts of the test and successfully overcoming discerning good from evil related to earlier contracts with God. Again, he wasn't given the opportunity to prove he could choose good over evil before the fall, so yes he didn't understand the details of the contract before the fall pertaining to things that had to be done during the test. It is kind of like the instructions that you get before a set of questions on the test, like when it says you can only use a number 2 pencil and don't write anything in the margins and if you are caught looking at someone else wife you will be immediately removed from the testing area and have to retake the first few tests. That also doesn't say that Adam didn't know Jesus' role before the fall. I appreciate your patience with me. :)

I don't think you and I see the purpose of the veil the same way. When I read Gospel Principles, it is pretty clear to me the purpose of the veil is so that man's desire of their heart can be tested by their choosing between good and evil based on faith not direct knowledge. If God is walking and talking with them in the garden of Eden then there is no faith. Maybe this is a weak metaphor, but I have heard it likened to going to a series of lectures and conversing with the professor directly about any questions you might have, learning as much as you can with text books open and writing on the chalkboard. But at the end of the lectures there comes a test, to determine how much you have really learned. It wouldn't be much of a test if the text books were open or the answers were still on the chalkboard. During the test, one has to rely on their own self, we might be able to ask the professor to explain the questions to us but the answer to the question ultimately has to come from us. The partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil is like saying, "I am ready to take the test." So, to create the test all the books are shut, and we can't ask the professor to answer the questions for us and we will be responsible for our own answers. Adam and Eve had not yet been put in that situation where they were responsible for their own answers based on faith and so their "eyes were open" to the importance of such a thing. The knowledge of good and evil is to say that they could see with their own eyes after being in such a situation how important their previous learning was and their faith in God and God's plan to pass the test. And the knowledge of good and evil allows us to value doing well through faith and obedience to really have joy from our own advancement in faith. That joy doing the right not because we are compelled to do so but through our own desires and comes even from failing but then realizing our mistake and repenting. There is no failure without a test and there is no test without a veil and the knowledge of good and evil is the test. Before that there was no test and so there was no need for a veil as well as no need for faith, the Holy Ghost or prophecy. You said that you "do not think their pre-mortal memories were intact" when in the Garden of Eden but they were not mortal in the Garden of Eden, so I am confused by that statement. So, you think by Adam being placed in the Garden of Eden, even in an immortal state there was a fall of knowledge? He had to learn all that he had learned spiritually all over again? Sure, I can see how he had to learn physical things possibly although that knowledge may have already been part of his body construct. But if his spirit was punished with a veil by being placed in the Garden of Eden, when he was placed in an immortal body, like you suggest, what did he do wrong to have that fall from knowledge? Can you show me some written information about that without quoting his knowledge base after the fall (the real fall - after eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil)? You are the first person I have ever heard say that there was a veil placed by Adam being put into an immortal body and being in the presence of God. That concept is new to me.

If you disagree with my premise then you disagree with what Joseph Smith taught about it and what Joseph F. Smith taught about his motives. That the veil did not come until after the fall and that Adam did it to open the door for all of us to be here. In quoting Moses 5, read verse 4, they were cast out of his presence. Being cast out of his presence doesn't mean anything to you in terms of understanding and enlightenment? From Robert L. Millet, “The Man Adam,” Liahona, Feb 1998, 14; "In the morning of creation, Adam, Eve, and all forms of life existed in a paradisiacal condition. All things were physical. But they were also spiritual in the sense that they were not mortal, not subject to death (see 1 Cor. 15:44; Alma 11:45; D&C 88:27). In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve walked with God. Adam was made “lord or governor of all things on earth, and at the same time [enjoyed] communion … with his Maker, without a vail to separate between.” (Joseph Smith, compiler, Lectures on Faith (1985), 12) Our first parents would have remained in this state indefinitely if they had not partaken of the forbidden fruit (see 2 Ne. 2:22; Moses 4:9). The Latter-day Saint view of the events in Eden is remarkably optimistic. We believe that Adam and Eve went into the Garden of Eden to fall, that their actions helped “open the way of the world,” 7 and that the Fall was a part of the Father’s foreordained plan. “Adam did only what he had to do,” President Joseph Fielding Smith said. “He partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world, for Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden of Eden; they could have been there to this day, if Eve hadn’t done something.” Because the Fall (like the Creation and the Atonement) is one of the three pillars of eternity, and because mortality, death, human experience, sin, and thus the need for redemption grow out of the Fall, we look upon what Adam and Eve did with great appreciation rather than with disdain. “The fall had a twofold direction—downward, yet forward. It brought man into the world and set his feet upon progression’s highway.” 9 As Enoch declared, “Because that Adam fell, we are” (Moses 6:48; see 2 Ne. 2:25). Out of Eden The Fall also opened the door to sin and death. This life became a probationary estate, a time for men and women to prepare to meet God (see 2 Ne. 2:21; Alma 12:24; Alma 34:32; Alma 42:4). With the Fall came a veil of separation between God and humankind; mortals “were shut out from his presence” (Moses 5:4). After being cast from the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were taught the gospel by the ministration of angels, by the voice of God, and through the power of the Holy Ghost (see Moses 5:1–12, 58)."

I am curious what you think about the immortal body your spirit will someday get, how is that made? For discussion purposes, lets say a spirit stays in spirit paradise for over a 1000 years, at least plenty of time for that individuals mortal body to turn back to dust, and maybe even some of those molecules were incorporated into another individuals body through the cycle of life, how is God going to make that permanent immortal body? Does that body have to be a fetus first? And if that is the case, the spirit would enter it as a fetus? I don't think so. What is your view on that?

You are talking about post-fall knowledge, in other words after the veil and after spiritual death. We were talking about Adam's knowledge before the fall and in the presence of Heavenly Father. How does Mahonri Moriancumer's revelation relate to that? In order to keep our first estate, didn't we all have to understand the plan? .. and actually choose Jehovah as our Savior?

I choose to believe what is written in the Book of Mormon about his motives, which is 2 Nephi 2:25 " Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy." and not just for companionship. I think he knew that for men to have "joy" in this sense eternal joy, they would have to first exist in this probationary state and then also need a redeemer. On one hand you say that he knew very little of the consequences but then turn around and say you love him because he is willing to die. That seems contradictory to me. If he is 'willing to die" then he understood the consequences. I can't say whether he knew the specifics about how Jesus would pay the price in the detailed way that you are saying it "condemn Jehovah to bleed from every pore," but I can't see how he didn't know that by partaking of the fruit he would set in motion the full plan of needing a redeemer and that Jesus was the one for that plan and that He would have to sacrifice His life to make that happen. To me, that makes him even more lovable then him doing it just for companionship. He was doing it for all of us, so men might be and so we can all have joy beyond what he had at that time. If he really did it for those reasons then he must of known how that is possible.

Exactly, I use that as an example of how much more influential our bodies are on our personalities than the spirit ... like you said his spirit was not changed but his injured brain interfered with his personality. So where does personality come from in this existence, mostly from the body. It amazes me how you know the mind of Adam before the fall, to know that would be the same as saying that you have no veil at all because that was Adam's circumstance before the fall. Maybe that is true, I don't know you, but that would be amazing. He may not have appreciated the significance of these events in terms of real life experiences, like knowing what it is like to suffer and feel grief and guilt etc. But that does not mean that he did not know the full plan of salvation, that with a fall we need a savior and that he stood next to Jesus when He said send me.

I said I think the only thing that remains is how valiant they were (probably didn't read the whole thing - I know I get a little wordy sometimes). The examples you gave relate to how valiant they were or how "good" they were but I don't see that as "personality." And if you can see back before this life to what your kids personalities were like before they were born, wow! more power to you. My veil is much thicker than yours I suppose. I've never heard anyone claim that before. If you are just saying that all kids have different personalities, yes I mentioned that too, we are all wired differently which starts about the 6th to 8th week of gestation so we come out with different propensities. And then nurture molds that a little more but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a mirror image of their spiritual self. The most humble and meek servant in this life may have been the most enthusiastic and vocal leaders in the war in heaven. I don't think it correlates that specifically and there are probably various unknown reasons why we have certain "personalities" in this life. I would imagine Moses now doesn't have trouble speaking in front of groups, that that was just his earthly "personality."

That may not be entirely true depending on what you believe about stillbirths or miscarriages for that matter. At what point does the spirit enter the body? Some, like Brigham Young would say at the moment the mother feels a quickening. If that is the case and then the child is a stillbirth, that person had a body but was not born. That spirit will have claim to a body but was never born. Some believe the spirit does not enter the body until they take their first breath. Sounds like you would go with that idea as you believe that birth is required to have a body. So, it probably wouldn't be to much of a problem for a person who believes that to be okay with abortion, even third trimester abortion. As a mother, I believe the spirit enters the body well before they are born, but that is just my experience.

I think the veil and the mortal body are fairly synonymous. When things are seen outside the veil, the body is transfigured or it is in a dream, etc. How do you know personalities are not changed by the veil? How could you know that? Do you think Moses had a problem speaking in front of groups before this life? Most of what we call personality is made up by the wiring of the brain, whether a person is right brained or left brained etc. Read the story of Phenius Gage. His personality changed after a frontal lobe injury. Or do you think the injury also injured his spirit? When people have Alzheimer's disease, their personality changes, or does that disease also disease the spirit then if the personality remains the same? Personalities are part of the talents given in this life, like the parable of the 10 talents. They are given, meaning we didn't have them before and we will be judged according to what we have been given, not based on what we had before this life. The only personality trait that I think remains to some degree is valiance but we would have no outward way of measuring that because you would have no idea where that person started in life to determine how valiant they really are. I suppose it depends on what you think personality is, whether a person is shy or outgoing, whether they like math or music, whether they like violence or butterflies, whether they are attracted to alcohol or risk taking or like sports or sewing or attracted to the same sex or opposite ... all of those things to me are part of the set of circumstances given to us (the wiring of our brain mostly and partly nurture) in this world to create specific tests that may or may not correlate linearly with our personalities before. How could Adam have no idea that the fall would result in the need for a Savior when we know he kept his first estate? He chose God's plan over Satan's. Or you think he just went along with it not knowing what he chose?

Thanks. These things are hard to quantify, unless there has been some view of the other side without the veil. Like Moses said after seeing the difference in our level of understanding, Man is nothing. There is obvious value to experience and knowledge of good and evil otherwise we wouldn't be here but in comparison to the quantity of knowledge lost by taking on this fallen state and having the veil it's a small amount. The net sum of knowledge lost versus knowledge gained while still being behind the veil is far far in the negative, at least that's the way I see it. There are so many scriptures that imply seeing things through spiritual eyes is a faster way to learn than through the eyes of man. And that man alone in this state could never reach an understanding of God's ways without divine intervention. I appreciate your 'by the way', because I see it that way too, I just didn't express it well ... I'll throw one more 'by the way' back at you .... By the way, we are told to maintain our innocence, to maintain that perception and reality. :)

I think there is a misconception that eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil somehow made Adam and Eve more knowledgeable about everything and that is not what happened. It only opened their eyes to the very beginning of experiencing the forces of good and evil. Their knowledge, just like what happened to all of us, fell. I don't know how far it fell but I would say very very far. I think they understood way more before the fall than they ever did while in this existence. And when they returned to God's presence that knowledge returned, after the veil was removed, and back to their previous full understanding like what they had in the garden before the fall returned with added experience. What they knew in the garden was way more than what we are given in this life. I believe.

Worse than that, it blinds our real self, it overpowers the spirit and makes us think that the physical is more important than the spirit. The physical wants us to worship the physical and so we try to find some divine quality to the corrupted body as if it has some ounce of significance compared to the importance of the spirit and spiritual development. Sure, we should treat the body like a temple but that is only because it is a doorway to permanent effects on the spirit. The physical body worries about self, like everything in nature, survival and self importance which is the opposite direction to Christ' gospel. The intellectual and the scholarly mind is just as risky as the rich man because it says "I know" and "I am smarter than most" to the point of ignoring the spiritual knowledge that for most barely shines through. Some may have won the battle to some degree in this life but I suspect for the majority the carnal influences are mostly in command. The body has to be that way though to create the test. If the body was just a shell that would be like taking an open text book exam. Knowing that, I have no need to call this fallen body a direct offspring of God because I know that things of God lead to light and truth and understanding. I don't see how anyone can say that the mortal body is of divine ancestry (which is different than saying it was created by God or is a gift of God) at the same time they say that the natural man is an enemy to God. The immortal body may be different as we will rest from the toils of this world, we won't have to fight that pulling away from what is spiritual. And the immortal body may be of divine ancestry, I don't know.

James E. Faust said: "It is not good practice to become intrigued by Satan and his mysteries. No good can come from getting close to evil. Like playing with fire, it is too easy to get burned: “The knowledge of sin tempteth to its commission.”2 The only safe course is to keep well distanced from him and any of his wicked activities or nefarious practices. The mischief of devil worship, sorcery, witchcraft, voodooism, casting spells, black magic, and all other forms of demonism should always be avoided. " All we need to know that he is, now, continuously evil. I have no desire to learn any more about his personality or abilities. I am not trying to discourage you from understanding who he is, just be careful. The desire to know more about evil is in some way an invitation to let that mode of thinking enter one's thoughts. ... like playing with fire.

The body does not bring forth life, the spirit does. You and I and everyone else were already alive also before our bodies existed.

That is not as "clearly" seen as you say. If you use the same reasoning you are applying to the word 'conception' then you would also have to apply it to the word sorrow which is also being affected by the verb multiply. Then you would be saying that they had sorrow also before the fall. You really believe that? I know you don't believe they had sorrow in paradise. Secondly, at that point they had already fallen and had enough time to have their eyes open, realizing their anatomy and their capability enough to make aprons to cover this new found anatomy. They even walked around the garden for a while, who knows how long before God confronted them. So the I will greatly multiply is referring to her current anatomy. And, this is just my twist on those words but I see that statement as something to the effect of God saying I will greatly multiply thy sorrow but at the same time I will greatly multiply your desire to have children (conception) enough to overcome the sorrow that comes with it and your desire will be towards your husband also enough to overcome the sorrow that comes with bearing children.

I don't claim that because I know what you will say next ... where is the proof? I don't have any more proof than you do that he was born, so yes it is an idea. It's an idea based in how I see the origin of man through the little information we get from scriptures combined with the little information we have from science. (... I said "how" not why or if it did or did not happen) The way I see it is that there is no need for Adam to be "born" any more than your future perfected body needs to be "born." And I am using the term "born" as what happens following two gametes, one from each parent, come together through conception forming a zygote and 9 months of gestation in the mother's womb, born. As opposed to arranging molecules to form organic substrate from which a perfectly aligned set of chromosomes could be made and culturing and nurturing with all that is needed to form a physical being ready to receive a spirit (whatever that process is). And that process could incorporate parts of evolution to prepare some of that organic substrate. Where did I get such a crazy idea you ask? It comes from knowing that God will make an immortal body for all who pass through this life even though their mortal body has turned to dust many many years ago. Which for most LDS is not a crazy idea. But, yes, it is just an idea that may or may not be correct.

I think that also supports the idea that Jesus was the only begotten son of God, meaning the only son born of God in the flesh. Whereas Adam was not born, and therefore cannot be begotten by definition. Adam's body being created instead of born disqualifies him from being begotten in the flesh.

So you don't think he was mortal in this life? Isn't being mortal a fallen state?

You are using a few terms that come across as you are assuming they are common knowledge and maybe I am seeing that way because I don't have even common knowledge yet ... so, maybe you can help me understand. 1. What is "a-mortal"? is that simply mortal. Not sure if there is an added significance to the "a-". 2. You mentioned immortal beings creating a mortal being and argued that it requires a higher form of life to create a lower form of life. To me then, you are assuming that our current state is higher than that of the spirits without a body. I don't see it that way. Yes, our potential and our future state will be higher once we receive our glorified body. But, I don't think this existence, with this corrupted body that dies and that is separated from God would be considered a "higher" form. To me, it is a lower form, which makes this life a test, a probationary period. And, yes, spirits who did not keep their first estate are lower because they have been cast out and have no more potential. Obviously, we are not talking about those spirits. Even having said that, I don't think "spiritual beings" created this body anyways. I believe our Heavenly Father created Adam and Eve's body, Heavenly Father a glorified being of flesh and bones. 3. I've seen this posted a few times and I don't understand this concept that intelligence "inhabits a spirit body." I thought the spirit body was made from intelligence material. The spirit body is intelligence, not that it is something that requires cohabitation to function. There are several uses of the word "intelligence" and this is what makes it confusing. But I don't think a spirit body can be made without using "intelligence" material which by separating it into a quantified amount and whatever process it is to do that results in forming the spirit being. I don't see it as a two step process, that a spirit being is born and then has to be placed into a "spirit body". I think the process of being spiritually born is that very process of creating a spirit body. Unlike the process of forming the soul of man which is the union of a spirit, a separate entity that can exist on it's own, entering another separate entity which can exist on it's own, the physical body. I can't comprehend a "spirit body" that exists as a separate entity moments before it receives intelligence to make it a spirit being. Because to make a spirit body, that requires "intelligence." Intelligence material is eternal and has always been around. But as soon as there is a description of "intelligences" or spirit beings, by definition, to me, that means they already have a spirit body. It comes down to deciding whether our "spirit bodies" are children of God or are we as individual intelligences are children of God. To me, it is one in the same, but if you separate it like that then you are suggesting that the "spirit body" alone is the child of God, not the formation of the individual entity of intelligence. .... sorry, I have probably confused the matter more, I hope you see where I am coming from though.

I would take your example to the other end of the spectrum of age though. I think it is like explaining to my grandmother who is 85 years old how bad the internet can be. She is very knowledgeable and has experienced many things in her life but in her world there was no internet and she can't fully understand the implications of it because she has never really used the internet. Explaining it means something, she just can't really appreciate its real life significance. .... Just like Adam and Eve understood but could not know what it was like to have the veil and to have "natural" carnal drives, they were innocent to those feelings. I believe our knowledge of just about everything was greater before the veil. To me, the veil is a covering that erases memory and knowledge and at the same time takes away innocence. To me innocence is not ignorance. Innocence relates more to lack of experience than it does knowledge.

Corrupted to me does not equal evil, just to be clear. To me it just means not perfect. And believe me, after 4 children and 2 miscarriages having children in this world is corrupted. "16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children;" Having children the way we do is absolutely part of the corrupted world. The privilege of participating in bringing a child of God into this world is a part of the process but the mechanics of it I believe is very corrupted and likely as God's proclamation to the woman suggests started with the fall. ... note the words "I will greatly ..." I really hope having children in the afterlife, the process of birthing (not the rest of it) is nothing like it is here because I can't imagine going through that over and over, without end.

To answer the last two questions ... The "curse" is a description of the new conditions that resulted from the fall as it relates to Lucifer. Because of the fall ... this is what is going to happen. And, I thought Adam's sacrifice by faith occurred after the fall, after the veil was placed.