Seminarysnoozer

Sorry, this has been said before in so many ways, but as people are jumping in the middle of the conversation ... I think there are at least 3 things (probably more than 3, but these are the ones that come to mind for me) that make our view (LDS view) of this different from other religions. And I am just saying this to help others understand where we are coming from ; 1. Knowing that we existed in a premortal state - this changes discussion of when we started to believe in Christ' plan 2. Knowing that Gods plan is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man and that He gains glory from doing this. I think ones idea of salvation is different when you understand that you are working out your salvation for Gods glory. 3. Knowing that living in the Celestial Kingdom is a state of continual hard work. It is a place, like God, one will have works without end. If one thinks 'salvation' is a place of eternal rest and relaxation, no purpose, then it is easy to say that no work is required here. When one realizes that the place we are trying to get to will be filled with people who 'love to work their butts off', and we will attain the degree of glory with like-minded people, then it is important in this life to cultivate the spirit of hard work and eternal striving. It is in the other Kingdoms that there is less work and less responsibility. If that is what you desire, no weight on your shoulders, then God has a place for you, but I can tell you, without a doubt in my mind that the people that make it to the Celestial Kingdom are ones that desire to have added responsibility, i.e. - more and more work. If you feel you would be uncomfortable in a place filled with busy-bees, well that's what this life is for, to change the desires of your heart and focus on the correct things. But if you feel like not worrying about, "have I done enough?" "what more does God want me to do?" and that is the desire of your heart, then you will be placed in a kingdom of like-minded people, and not surrounded by busy-bees. (This is not a statement of where I am at in life, I have a lot more to work on to get to that point myself, but you have to know where you want to be to have that change of heart.) Oh and there is one more thing ... realizing that LDS believe in two different salvations, one from temporal death and one from spiritual death, so we have to make sure we specify which salvation you are talking about. Point 1 above is related to temporal death and points 2 and 3 above are related to spiritual death.

People in need allow us to learn a fundamental principle, friendship. To make friends, you not only have to have mutual compassion for that person but you have to spend intimate time towards a similar goal. Being in need presents opportunity to work towards similar goals intimately with someone. So, we are not talking about dropping your old clothes off at the D.I. or donating money to Help Save the Children fund. Joseph Smith said: "Friendship is one of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’; [it is designed] to revolutionize and civilize the world, and cause wars and contentions to cease and men to become friends and brothers." And you thought faith, repentance, baptism and receiving of the Holy Ghost were the first principles, well friendship is one of the 'grand fundamental' principles. So, in other words, we can't live quiet lives. We have to go out of our way to find those in need and reach out to them. I would rather be a wall flower and converse anonymously on the web, myself. But as Joseph Smith said, we have to cultivate our sympathy for the afflicted and pour in the oil and wine ... meaning you have to get real close to people, pouring in the oil and wine is a very intimate thing as in the example of the good Samaritan. Cultivate sympathy, meaning you have to learn how to have it by doing it. And then be their friend, which is really the message if the good Samaritan. That's also why there are many people in need. Joseph Smith said to the saints in Nauvoo: “We should cultivate sympathy for the afflicted among us. If there is a place on earth where men should cultivate the spirit and pour in the oil and wine in the bosoms of the afflicted, it is in this place; and this spirit is manifest here; and although [a person is] a stranger and afflicted when he arrives, he finds a brother and a friend ready to administer to his necessities." The people I know that are the most spiritual are the ones who are willing to be your friend at all times ... and are not very quiet about it.

In all honesty, I think LDS do both. In fact, through this whole thread, I've tried to ask why there has to be a separation of child A and child B. I gather from these discussions that LDS try to say these two things don't have to be opposing views, grace and works. And evangelicals have a hard time not separating them. Every Sunday, I partake of the sacrament to remember His grace and sacrifice at the same time I am actually doing the work of going to church and participating in that ordinance. I think one can emphasize both. Child A and B can be the same person!

We don't know, you are right. The only thing one can do is make sure she has done her part. We will stand witness as to the fact we tried and we did our work here to the best of our ability. The attempt though means something. God will judge in the end, but in those cases where there was opportunity, the door was opened and that person did not accept, we will stand witness to our part in that process. So .... it is not a loss, in that sense, when we do baptisms for the dead and they do not accept.

For me, the BOM speaks more clearly of the 'why' we are here and not just 'what' to do. It lays out the 'why is there are redeemer' (as stated by many already) and not just that there is a redeemer. 2 Nephi chapter 2 explains the reasons for free agency and opposition, and pain and suffering more than I think the Bible does. In fact, I think there are a lot of people that turn away from the truth because of that, they say to themselves, "How can there be a God if there is so much suffering in this world?" Well, the BOM explains that. It puts a perspective on this life that is different, the premortal life and the life after death. Most that have just the Bible don't believe in a premortal existence. I like what Pres. Kimball said; “If we looked at mortality as the whole of existence, then pain, sorrow, failure, and short life would be calamity. But if we look upon life as an eternal thing stretching far into the premortal past and on into the eternal post-death future, then all happenings may be put in proper perspective”

There clearly is a value placed on performing an ordinance that will be rejected, just like there is value to the rejections of the efforts of the missionaries here. They will stand witness as to having provided the opportunity. God is not a just a referee calling the game from His view. He is bound by eternal laws, a lot of which we do not fully understand. One of those laws, for me (this is not part of gospel doctrine as far as I know but my feeling), is that He can't claim the full glory of something that has not yet been done. Thus the value of the phrase, "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Don't forget the "to bring to pass" part. Even if he could see the future perfectly, it is not the same as having the ability to say that something has come to pass. ... and I think that same principle is true for both positive and negative things that happen here. The value of "it would have been" is not the same as "it was." 2 Nephi 9:44 " O, my beloved brethren, remember my words. Behold, I take off my garments, and I shake them before you; I pray the God of my salvation that he view me with his all-searching eye; wherefore, ye shall know at the last day, when all men shall be judged of their works, that the God of Israel did witness that I shook your iniquities from my soul, and that I stand with brightness before him, and am rid of your blood." .... in part, I think, we do the baptisms for the dead so that the blood of their sins are not on our garments. And, so God can say, there was a way prepared for them, all the work was done, all the covenants were completed in their name and sealed in this world, so there is no excuse, there is no defense. One cannot say in spirit prison, "I didn't have a fair chance to go through all the steps." (I realize this has already been said in so many ways, just throwing in my two cents.)

Haha, I thought about my teachers saying all you can bring is your #2 pencil, no notes, books, or calculators. I think that is the point, all we have is our spirituality, no Heavenly Father standing over our shoulder to give us the answer. All the chalkboards are covered, the books closed but if we whisper quietly, you might just hear the answers every once in a while.

There are two other scriptures that I was reminded of by listening to conference today, at least to me, support the need for work. One is where Jesus says come unto me for my burden is light. Well, if there was no burden at all, He would have said come unto me as there is no burden with me. But there is a burden, it's light, it's easy, but there is a burden. The other scripture is where He says, (right after He said He casts the unprofitable servant into outer darkness)," inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." .... and essentially the same thing was said for not doing those things to others, is like not doing it to Jesus. The thing to think about there is the doing part of it ... He said that it is like doing it to Him, in other words, the works, are of value to Him, they mean something directly to Him. If not, He would have said you should just be good to everyone, and that's it, why relate it to doing it to Him? why would it have any effect on Jesus? unless it has value to Jesus, unless we have to answer to Jesus. Remember too this is talking about after this life is over for you and looking back on your life, in other words people who being judged by God. And if you believe that, then works have value to Jesus. At the end of that example, he says the righteous will have Eternal Life, so clearly relating these acts to either leading to Eternal Life, or everlasting punishment. So, if you believe, but didn't do those things unto the least of these my brethren ... its everlasting punishment.

Seems like we believe more similar than everyone is making it out to be, its just we use different terms for certain steps. The reason its hard to talk about is that as PC stated, Protestants and Catholics do not believe in pre-earthly life. LDS believe all the souls that are here in this life are those that believed in Jesus' plan, and not satan's and so everyone here will be saved from this earthly existence by His grace, we will all be resurrected, which is more or less your description of salvation. Yes, we believe that everyone here gets that for free, just by being here. But those that didn't believe in Jesus' plan like Satan, wont receive that. And your description of "progressive sanctification" sounds a lot like what will happen with the various degrees of glory. We just use different terms. It sounds like what you are saying is that the 'progressive sanctification' or for us 'making it to the Celestial Kingdom' takes work.

Yes, the feeling of deserving something is the root of evil. LDS believe that was Satan's plan, telling everyone you deserve all that God has without doing anything, that sounds attractive, thats why, we believe, a third of the host of heaven bought that idea. In fact, that is one of the main themes of the Book of Mormon, once a people start to believe they deserve something (proud of there own power), that leads to destruction. Lamen and Lemuel hated Nephi, because they thought they deserved more than Nephi as they were the older brothers, almost like the story of Cain and Abel. A feeling of deserving is far from any faithful LDS member.

PC, what is the purpose of "progressive sanctification" if you are already saved? Why grow if you are already there? Please tell me what you think is 'progressive sanctification', and why does that matter to you. What would happen if you weren't progressively sanctified?

follow up .... I wasn't familiar with that term, "Total Depravity" but we do believe the natural man is an enemy to God. To understand our beliefs about that you have to carefully designate whether you are talking about 'man' the physical body or 'man' the soul of man. Our physical body is fallen from what God created in Adam and Eve. And as such it has no potential by itself. It is only when it is combined with a spirit that gives it potential, through Jesus'. Our physical body is dust and will return to dust without divine intervention. The spirit is willing but the body is weak. .... not sure if that's what you were getting at. PC, do you believe we existed as individuals before coming here?

No, I think, most LDS believe we are born with some light of Christ within us. By the age of 8 we already start to know right from wrong without being exposed to any religion at all.

Why is it that accepting a free gift and works have to be mutually exclusive? If I give my friend a car, they accept it and it just sits in their driveway because she doesn't drive. She accepted the gift ... but it serves no purpose and doesn't really mean anything unless she drives the car. Or if I pay for my sons college and he accepts it freely, no strings attached ... I gave it to him, not as a reward, just free, it still means nothing if he doesn't 'work' the gift. He would still have to study and listen to the professors to mean something. I guess what I am saying is I don't see how a free gift no longer becomes free if you still have to do something to make it significant. What is so hard to understand about that? An 'opportunity' that was not an opportunity previously can be a free gift. If a friend buys you a gift from IKEA that you have to put together yourself, do you say; "thanks for nothing!"?

You've never heard of the phrase "pay it forward" ... a gift was taken, paid in kind (but in a different way) to someone else. That idea is not absurd. I agree that the gift of salvation cannot be paid back by us. That is why we need a savior. To be able to make something good out of our fallen state. I believe in a God that does not do anything save it be ultimately for good. If God gave us a gift that results in nothing returned (think of the "usery" mentioned in the story of the ten talents) then the result of creating us and this world is a net negative. My God created us and this world knowing that the net sum of good outweighs his original investment. Just like sending your kids to college, that gift would mean nothing if all they did were to party all day and didn't take advantage of the rules and plan set out by the professors. In that example it is a gift paid back by following the instruction of the professors and ultimately results in more than the actual cost of the University. .... Maureen, I agree with what you say, just take it one step further.

Another metaphor; If you were going to lose your house because you couldn't make the payments to the bank you would need someone to save you from losing your house. If a friend stepped in to buy the house from the bank so you could stay there are two possibilities at this time. Either the friend says, 1.) I bought it for you, here it is. or 2.) I bought it, but now you will keep it under my terms, I will charge you rent. You don't have to lose the house, that's a gift. But you still have to pay the friend back under his terms. So, there is still work even though you have the gift of the house. I believe option 2 is more like the gift of God. You still wouldn't boast that the house is yours, because you couldn't do it without your friend. This option still satisfies the debt and allows us to have some responsibility. If it was given in whole (option 1) without any price to pay then there is no responsibility. There are many stories in the bible that imply we have at least some responsibility. I am curious how you would interpret "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury." in the parable of the ten talents. What is meant by putting money to the exchangers? because remember in those that didn't do that work, the talent was taken away, and "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." So, at least in my mind, if you don't work what was given, you lose it. Another point to clarify in this discussion: PC, do you believe God and Jesus are the same person, or separate? That has to be established to talk about who is giving what gift.

If I asked you to learn Calculus on your own without ever consulting another source, a book or a teacher you could not do it in your lifetime. Now if I offered to purchase you a tutor, other then obtaining your commitment to study hard and listen to everything the tutor says and do your homework, then it is through the grace and my sacrifice that you would learn Calculus. You would learn Calculus by your hard and dedicated work but you wouldn't boast in that because you didn't discover it on your own, you didn't make it happen on your own, you couldn't. Because of our fallen state, there is no other source or way to return to God but by Jesus Christ. We can't get there on our own without His sacrifice. God, being just, could not just give it to you for free, so there was a payment, Jesus Christ. Now, we are to listen to His terms, like listening to the tutor. We are 'off the hook' for God's debt and now we are indebted to Jesus. But, we still have to pay Jesus back in His terms, otherwise pay the consequences that he lays out in the gospel. Jesus' consequences, luckily, do not involve remaining in a fallen state. So, if I get there, I can't boast of all the hard work I still have to do to get there, because I couldn't do it all by myself (overcome death - this world), only if there is an alternate way of paying off the debt which is to follow Jesus. And, that gift of God, which is Jesus Christ, is not given to a certain few, anybody can take advantage of His plan. "No child left behind" haha. Of course this whole thing is very confusing if one thinks God and Jesus are the same person - but that's another discussion. Alma 22: 14 (13-14) 14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

Prisonchaplain, Just want to clarify another point that you may not realize about LDS beliefs. We believe Gods laws are immovable. They do not change. For every law there are specific punishments and rewards and as such there is no possible way to "impress" God. So believing this way, it is impossible to 'impress' God. Even with that though, God is the only one who fully understands our individual circumstances and what is in our hearts, so that is why He is the only one who can judge. And knowing all of that, there are specific blessings and consequences that come from our actions. I think (maybe this is just my belief) that we believe we started to work towards our Eternal Life goals even before we came to this world ... so I guess we believe that works comes before salvation in that sense. I am curious why you said works are an "essential fruit of salvation..."? essential to what? I'm not sure if you meant to use the word 'essential'. Because, to me, essential means you can't do without it. And yet on the other hand you seem to be saying that you can do without it. Again, I appreciate our conversation. thanks.

Prisonchaplain, thanks for your responses. Fear is the beginning of wisdom, but the understanding comes only after doing his commandments. (Psalms 111) I agree with you that it is better to act in love than in fear, but it is also better to act in fear than not act at all. So, again, we agree. The thing that is left out is, "I much prefer to see the people of God motivated by a deeper love relationship with their Creator ..." .... but motivated to do what? Or is the motivation, by itself, enough? Fear is the hallmark of the gospel to the unbeliever. But to those who are living the gospel it becomes progressively lost. I am working on that, I don't have perfect love, so at times I am thankful for my fear of the Lord and fear of things that will be lost if I don't obey. New revelation often is presented with an aura of fear first ... just as predicted by Revelations 14: 6 and 7 as to the coming of the everlasting gospel in the latter days. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by; "But, imho, Joseph Smith reacted very negatively to the apparent contradiction between folk who claimed to be eternally secure, and yet who appeared to be living very much for the Devil."

I think the reason 'salvation' is different for LDS from other, even Christian, religions is that LDS believe the end of this life is just the beginning of your real life - the afterlife. Salvation, in other words, is not the end. I kind of think of it like getting a degree in college. You can't get it on your own, without the help of a system, but the degree itself is yours, if you follow the instructions given to you and perform well. But after you get the degree, so what? That, to me, is where the discussion stops for most. Salvation is not the end. But, if you believe that what you do here determines your purpose after this life, then you are motivated to do well, to do good works. Just like performing well in college, is not to just get a degree (salvation so to speak), but to prepare oneself for the real world, the work one has after obtaining a degree. The 'harvest' varies even for people with the same degree. If one believes heaven is a place of rest then it would fit well to believe all one has to do in this world is just believe in Christ and have faith. (by the way, Heaven is a place of rest from the evils of this world, but it is not a place of rest in terms of sitting around with nothing to do) But, if one's view of the afterlife is one of continuing to do God-like work, then here she will work, work, work so she will be best prepared to be like Him. The God I believe in has many works, too many to count, and He never stops (even His day of rest has purpose), His works are without end. If you don't like that idea, then keep telling yourself works are not important and you will have the brand of salvation you've always wanted. A salvation of blissful lack of, or limited purpose.

It doesn't seem that LDS beliefs differ too much from yours. That the rewards are based on the works done here, at least in part. The other part being the "willingness to allow the spirit to direct and empower" you. I believe that too.

How does God determine those "degrees of reward" then?

Prisonchaplain, please explain your definition of "salvation" specifically. I think those of us that have had LDS instruction without much exposure to other teachings think of that word differently but I'm not sure. What is "salvation" for you? Thanks.

Most people in this world don't want eternal families. They say that in so many ways... premarital sex, extramarital affairs, trying to redefine marriage, avoiding marriage until they have their career established or other earthly goals come before families. And they try to limit the number of children they have. There are many that marry and remarry breaking the family unit into several pieces, ...his children and her children etc. God will not give you something you aren't even striving for in this life, or have a desire for. I agree that we are all saved by Christ's sacrifice. We are all saved from this corrupted existence without doing anything. But, not all of us will receive Eternal Life. As an example ... Imagine if your parents sent you to Medical School when you were 10 years old. That would be a miserable and useless experience for most 10 year olds. Also, most 10 year olds wouldn't see the value of such an opportunity, they would ask, why did you do that to me? God will not give everyone Eternal families for the same reason. Also, to answer your question more specifically ... I think there will be many holes in the family of those that accept the gospel and ordinances, it may skip several generations but this is why we are commanded to do our genealogy, eventually back to Adam. When it is all figured out, we are all one big family, the family of Adam. So, the numbers aren't so small when you look at it that way.

There is a difference between thoughts and desires. Sometimes it is hard to know the difference, but that's what the Holy Ghost is for, to let you know when you have crossed that line. Then you will know when a random thought is just a random thought versus a thought that comes from desires of the heart. That is in part, what we are here to learn ... to overcome the corrupted wiring of our physical mind and let our spirit reign over it. It takes time to learn that. In the mean time, bad thoughts come through, but don't have to turn into desires. Like the word "lust" suggests, it's not just a thought, it's a desire. The trick then, is not to get rid of all bad thoughts or even expect that to happen but to know how to recognize them quickly before they turn into desires. I believe God knows the desires of our heart and we will be judged by those and not by random thoughts our spirit rejects.