Seminarysnoozer

I am laughing because I remember putting on those things, "My best quality is that I am humble." then left the rest blank. Nobody ever said anything about it to me, so I don't know how they took it.

I think you are mixing in a lot of quotes about this life to explain things that happened in the pre-earthly life. We didn't know right from wrong in that existence. And if we were all created equally in the beginning that doesn't explain why we took different paths in the pre-existence. I know we had agency but why would our choices be different even if given agency if we all had the same make up. Why would one spirit be more or less distracted than another if you think that is the variable? Or why would one spirit have different distractions than another, who aligned those distractions that way? You said; "but I do feel when the spirit was created we were the same, or started on the same level. " Starting on the same level and created the same are two different things for me. Like starting out at Kindergarten, we can all start at the same level but all kindergarten children are not the same. So what I am asking about is where that variability started. I think we can all agree it exists. Just, does God play a role in creating that variability? or is that variability out of His hands?

Thanks Vort. I think I feel the same way. It keeps coming up in my thoughts because it seems there are a lot of related questions that keep coming up. Like, not to long ago someone asked can God do what He does without Lucifer? or something of that sort. And the set of questions asked by Snow in regard to limiting peoples choices to just good options. I think it would be helpful to know that God didn't play an active role in what Lucifer became, in other words, I believe God didn't purposely create Lucifer from the start to be Lucifer in the end or all evil intelligences for that matter. I don't know how, and probably won't know until it is given to us to understand but at least thinking about these possibilities helps me keep God in the highest light.

I appreciate your response, helps me see it in a different light. If I am understanding you correctly, it sounds like you are saying it's like picking a team. My only concern with that idea is why would He pick intelligences that would be cast into outer darkness and lose a third of the host of heaven. Maybe that's the first cut of the 'try-outs'?

..... and reversely too, one cannot justify evil acts by "God made me this way." This also helps that argument about God purposely making Lucifer, if it was out of His control.

I realize it is not answerable as to the specifics or the mechanics of it, but I think one can arrive at a reasonable assumption there is a part of that process that is a random or uncontrolled step, a bit of rolling of the dice. Why is this important? I think some people struggle with "why did God make me this way?" kind of thoughts. I realize a lot of our earthly traits come from the limitation of our bodies and genetics etc. but the variation in "intelligences" our spiritual tendencies is also recognizable here. It would be like getting mad at your parents for passing on the gene for hair loss. Why get mad at them, they had no control over that. Likewise our spiritual tendencies are not something we can say "why did God make me that way?" To me, at least, that's a comfort.

Towards the end of our pre-earthly existence we all were variable in our obedience and valiancy or did that variability exist from the start of our spiritual existence, made part of our traits through agency? Is the organizational process of creating spirits out of Gods direct control? It seems that personality and the variability in choices is not just a random thing, that it is the spiritual make up of that person. In other words, when God created our brother Lucifer spiritually, did Lucifer start out with an equal mix of "intelligence" as the rest of us and made some random choices that made him turn into Lucifer? Or in the organizational process of forming us spiritually it results in random, variability of spiritual traits that is out of control of God and Lucifer just ended up with traits that gave him a propensity for being a vile snake right from the beginning. Like I can't produce only eggs that have specific traits (even if I wanted to), they come as they are. But whatever the creation process God has to make spirits it seems there has to be a random component that is out of His control to end up with some spirits more valiant than others and even some with evil tendencies. Otherwise, if we were of all the same equal portions of 'intelligence' and formed in the same matter and manner we would all be equally obedient and valiant in the pre-existence. I guess the other way there could be variability is if it is related to age but I thought I remember hearing somewhere that Lucifer was also older, maybe I think that because he was also "one of authority". Some may say, "we have agency so we all end up different" but, to me, agency is not a random thing, 'you go here I'll go there' it is based in experience and traits of which decisions would only end up different if the likes and dislikes were different to begin with. If two spirits had the same likes and dislikes and propensities they would choose the same things. So where does that "one spirit more valiant than another" variability come from? Where do the spirits start to take different directions? Exactly, I don't know, but it sounds like it comes from the limitation of Gods control of the creation process of spirits. I get the 'spirit matter was there it was always there', to me that's not an argument for variability unless God does not have a way of dividing it into equal or similar portions. But that is my proposition. If He does not have a way of dividing it into equal portions or only picking from the "good" intelligence material or make up, then by definition it is out of His control. Why would God form some spirits less valiant, less obedient than others?

Joseph Smith said "That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us. Here, then, is eternal life--to know that only wise and true God, and you have got to learn how to become Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you. .. God himself, the father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ."

I just realized I never said Hi, so Hi everyone! I'm in San Diego. Recently called to the Young Women presidency and realized the girls in our ward know more about the gospel than I do. Thus the name, I think I slept through seminary classes. It's nice to relearn the gospel and strengthen my testimony by discussing it with you. Thanks. :)

I think its also harder to believe when one has a hard time distinguishing between beliefs and knowledge. Maybe, in part, this is why missionaries go at 19, teenagers tend to be more emphatic about their beliefs, as if it really is knowledge. At least, that's what my teenagers do, add two cups of drama to everything.

You bringing this up makes me think you are advanced in your learning. Kind of like when your dad is teaching you how to ride a bike, he lets go, then you panic until you realize he let go a long time ago and you are okay to go more and more on your own.

That refiners fire requires a lot of heat.

Oftentimes things that take more effort are more meaningful.

Congratulations for your son and his cousins. :)

Joseph F. Smith said: "It is a very difficult matter to say anything at a time of sorrow and bereavement like the present that will give immediate relief to the sorrowing hearts of those who mourn. Such griefs can only be fully relieved by the lapse of time and the influence of the good spirit upon the hearts of those that mourn, by which they can obtain comfort and satisfaction in their hopes of the future. … I have learned that there are a great many things which are far worse than death. With my present feelings and views and the understanding that I have of life and death I would far rather follow every child I have to the grave in their innocence and purity, than to see them grow up to man and womanhood and degrade themselves by the pernicious practices of the world, forget the Gospel, forget God and the plan of life and salvation, and turn away from the only hope of eternal reward and exaltation in the world to come." Bringing a child back home who is innocent and fully grown spiritually, God knowing that individual does not need to be exposed to the railings of Satan here, is an act of love. I don't know why you don't see it that way, Joseph F. Smith saw a child's death as a compassionate thing. And, Why are you trying to apply rules pertaining to the priesthood authority given to men on God. How much of Gods power you think is bestowed to priesthood holders here? 10%?, 5%?, 0.00000001%? It certainly isn't 100%. It has that potential sure, but the authority given to men is a small portion of Gods. As when men are responsible with small areas of dominion, later they can be responsible for greater things. The quote you give about the nature of the priesthood pertains to the authority of the priesthood given to men and is preceded by the concern about unrighteous dominion. It is the rules given to users of a small portion of Gods power and therefore cannot be related to one who has all the authority. What portion of Gods righteous dominion are you trying to police? The priesthood power given to men is but a subset of all of Gods priesthood power. Or are you trying to equate earthly priesthood dominion to God's dominion? I hope not. That is like saying the Sheriff has to follow the rules given to the Deputy. The priesthood is to act righteously in the name of God, it is not to act like a God. There is a difference! and that is why those rules are given to men (not God), to not claim dominion over that which was not given. I don't understand this reverse reasoning. What dominion did God claim that was not His? I hope you are not saying that God does not have claim to my life, your life or anyone's life or anything in this world for that matter. Everything in this world is His dominion including life and death. I wouldn't want to try to limit God's dominion or apply rules given to a subset of His power to the whole, even in rhetoric.

Where I am going is exactly what you said, "called home." I think God can call anyone home, good or bad, it is still home. Why can't God say this person needs a body but doesn't need to take the test? Why are natural causes separated in your reasoning? That's interesting, sincerely. I am trying to understand your reasoning. I thought God often acts through natural means. What if it turns out all the "first born" got a certain portion of food that had a greater amount of bacteria or exposed to some rapid viral meningitis that the others weren't exposed to, would you still call it killing? or some virus carried by mosquito that is killed by certain components of blood spread on the wall? Is it still killing as it is 'natural'? Some would call 'killing'; an act of an attempt to take God's power in their own hands without the authority to do so. But still, I don't see what your definition of "killing" is. I'm trying to understand what is the definition of "killing" because I am having a hard time using that word in describing God's behavior. Please don't respond with another question like "what do you think it is?" I am saying, I am not sure. But you seem pretty sure of the definition. So, again, what is your definition of "killing" (without saying just a few things its not)?

Can God create spirits with specific traits? Seems like that's out of His power, don't know. But it would seem to me if He could, He would make all spirits the same, like our older brother. This goes back to our discussion of different Intelligences, seems like we started out different. If we were all the same seems nobody or everybody would have ultimately followed Lucifer, let alone there being a Lucifer in the first place.

I realize that, that's why I said "in Abraham's shoes ..." but I am curious what your definition of "killing" is. Can a life be taken without it being "killing"? How about when someone is translated? Is that killing in your view since their life here was taken?

The equation should be mushed together to be; Faith (agreeing with Jehovah's plan over Satan) = Salvation from temporal death, then Salvation from temporal death + Real Faith (when one has a veil) + covenants with God (works) = Salvation from spiritual death then, Salvation from spiritual death = working for eternity with God or something like that .... its not a different equation, one big one.

I think the "language/terminology" gets in the way because we can't even agree on the basics, faith, works, salvation. One can't write out simple equations to compare Person A with Person B when Person A's faith is different than Person B's and each definition of salvation is different. To me, all the understanding I need to have is that we need both faith and works as I won't boast of my own Exaltation until it happens. If Person A and Person B both agree that they do not know of their own Exaltation until they hear it directly from God's mouth then Person A and Person B will keep their focus on both faith and works. What is more important than the other or what came first the chicken or the egg discussion means nothing in that setting. But there is no discussion or comparison when one person says salvation means resurrection and living in some proximity to God (any of the three kingdoms, even Telestial has some light - stars) and the other person is using the word salvation to mean Exaltation - meaning having eternal increase and living with God (Celestial Kingdom). Person A and Person B both believe that "faith" - believing in Jesus Christ and His plan leads to salvation from temporal death (of the first type above), its just at a different time. I am assuming people are saying Person B is LDS, believe that belief in Jesus occurred before the world began, so everyone (essentially) here gets salvation from earthly death through Jesus just by being born here. I also think it should be obvious by now, these terms are different. But when there are these comparing equations, Person A and Person B type things, its like .... yep here we go again. So on any further equation comparing, I would suggest specifying salvation from temporal death or spiritual death or both as we are on an LDS site. And realize that when LDS say 'faith' we are talking about real faith, in other words the 'faith without works is dead' kind of faith. ... or we can keep going around and around, either way,

Great quote Marty -One of the things that helps me remember the power of faith is to remind myself of the pre-existence and that a lot of the gospel we knew about before coming here. Its kind of like when I get back on the slopes, even though it might be years, I feel less anxious knowing that I've done it before. After a few runs, it comes back even faster.

This reminded me of what I think is one of the most important purposes of being here in this existence which is to work out and even develop what we 'love,' the desires of our heart. A few years ago we had a family from Argentina over for dinner, my husband's business acquaintance. We had root beer on the table. One of the adults tried some and I could tell by the look on her face that she didn't like it, so later I asked her if she had ever had root beer before and she said "no." Then I asked, "You didn't like it?", surprised there could be anybody who doesn't like root beer. She said "no, it tastes like medicine." But, I also noticed during the night, the two children couldn't get enough of it. I guess there taste buds weren't jaded by having to take medicine that tastes like root beer. (It was 'diet' so it wasn't just the sugar :)) I know its a silly story, but it made me think of how God really is working out what we like and what we don't like. He won't put us in a kingdom that "serves root beer" so to speak if we don't like it. That would be cruel. It's important to get a taste and even develop a taste (if you don't have it) for those things that will be part of the Celestial Kingdom. One of the quotes there "love is a defining characteristic of a disciple of Christ" reminded me of what Joseph Smith said to the saints as hundreds of needy families were pouring into Nauvoo. He reminded them to 'develop' charity and learn how to befriend, in so many words, realizing it isn't necessarily something everyone has naturally. By doing things asked of the gospel it creates traits that are common in the celestial kingdom and if we learn to enjoy those things, its in our heart, then God will place us there according to the desires of our hearts. Like learning to like schoolwork when one is young (for some it comes naturally - not me) these loves sometimes have to be developed, and it's up to you which 'loves' you work on. This is why I've never understood the practice of some religions of isolating oneself and not talking to anyone for long periods of time. I don't think I want to be in the Kingdom where you are by yourself and have few if any relationships - telestial kingdom.

If He could how would you know it happened?

I take it from this discussion, Snow, if you were in Abraham's shoes, you would tell God, "no, I am not going to take my only (innocent) son and kill him!" Then God would say, " I didn't use the word 'kill,' why do you use the word 'kill' to describe my command to offer a sacrifice?" (clarification: I am not saying the definition of what happened with the passover is sacrifice. With Abraham was that not a command to 'kill' under your definition of kill? And Abraham knowing God didn't even question the command.) Snow, what is your definition of killing?

What do you mean by 'compel'? ...like dropping a Book of Mormon on someones porch? ... since God "supernaturally interceded" to allow JS to translate the Book of Mormon, and the person getting the book would have chosen SA1 (not go to church) but now chooses SA2 (become a faithful member of the church) after reading the book. If the guy getting the book didn't pray for the book to be dropped on his porch then it is coersive? And who in this world seriously does not wish divine guidance in their heart of hearts? If they are that low, they had no free will in the first place as they gave it all up to Satan.