Seminarysnoozer

This is right. I think some of us though have a hard time with the word "save" when used with Lucifer's method because the way I understand it he basically said we don't need a savior. I think his suggestion was to not have a fall and therefore no savior. I think he knew Jesus would beat him out hands down for that job title, 'savior', so he wanted to change the need for having a savior and then take the credit for that idea. I don't think his idea would have resulted in even telestial status because those members have a body. Satan's proposition allowed for no body, he couldn't give an immortal body. But, I agree, this is talking about an impossibility so there really is no description of something that couldn't happen. We can only really say some of what it couldn't be.

Why do you have such a hard time keeping things in context? You reacted to my comments about a hypothetical belief as if I actually believe it. That was my point, to show how much of a dead end that thought process is. The truth is that you do not know how much of your 'superior intellect' is coming from your spirit and how much is coming from your brain You said; " The reason I can make the list because I have a brain and I can think and reason and I can feel." You prove that, that those feelings are coming from your brain and not from your spirit. You are making a claim that you know these things through intellect and brain power is inherently false. It is not your brain that gives you or does not give you a belief in God, this is my point, and you just confirmed my suspicion with your comments. You really do believe that understanding of things spiritual is had through your temporal being. I say that is wrong, spiritual things are not understood by the temporal. Spiritual understanding comes through the spirit. Spiritual significance is lost in things that are just temporal. You may say, well of course everything has a spirit. Yes, but there is a circumstance where the spirit has no say at all and the thoughts are purely temporal, that is the condition in which the heart is hardened and shut off, that is the condition which Jesus says has ears but does not hear. You give way too much credit to your brain, it is your spirit that is giving you the feeling. The only way you could prove me wrong is by completely shutting down your spirit by hardening your heart so you don't feel anything spiritual and then come back here and tell me how you feel (please don't take this out of context now either, I am not asking you to do this, I am making a point about how going down that pathway is fruitless). " Yes - I can see that. You can't comprehend it." Neither can you, because you believe in God and you still listen to your spiritual promptings whether you give credit to it or not. You try to convince yourself what it is like to not believe in God and shut off the light of Christ but you do not know. I don't believe that you have ever fully shut of your light of Christ to see what your temporal intellect can do on its own. If you think that is where your understanding of God comes from that is false. I see what your aim is on these posts. It may not be how you are in person, I am not making any judgments about you as a whole because I do not know you, only your focus here and I think this thread is your most revealing, this is your banner thread, the heart of what drives Snow in this forum from what I have seen, "I Want to Know What's Real" and "It - the topic - is worth a whole discussion but something the host said in answer to why he was pursuing the topic. He responded, because I'd rather know what's real than what makes me feel good. That resonated with me." The reason that resonates with you is because you have a distaste for faith, at least that is the way it is coming across. It's not just in this thread but many topics and posts. Why does this resonate with you? Have you believed something in the past that has turned out to be not true and so you are scared of faith? If you got your hearts desire in this life - to know what is real without listening to how you feel, lets say God gave you that, you suddenly know what is real and what is not, then by achieving that you have summarily killed faith. And once achieving your quest you would happily stamp out poor little church mouse' 'faith' last breath singing "We are the champions, we are the champions..." until you realize you have just killed the best way to gain knowledge, through faith in Jesus Christ. We will all know what is real and what is not real at the end of this life. But the desire to know what is real over what makes one feel good - as what you claim resonates with you is not of God. (again, don't take that out of context either, please) This thread represents your ultimate quest which is to give more credit to temporal earthly reasoning or secular knowledge than to the power of learning through the spirit. The way the spirit teaches is by making one 'feel good.' So, now look at that statement more carefully now, you say it resonates with you to know what is real over what makes you feel good. In other words, you would prefer proof through reasoning over spiritual confirmation. Why does that resonate with you? I disagree with that approach. And don't try to tell me that Joseph Smith came to an understanding of God through secular learning. He came to an understanding of God by following what is in James1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed." My whole point in giving that hypothetical 'flip side' of pushing the issue of whether God is real or not is to show that all that does in introduce "wavering." There is no benefit in doubtful questioning or disbelief. You cannot know what is God if you approach it with "well, he could be real but maybe not." That is wavering!!! So when you say you want to know what is real but not listen to how you feel, I believe you. I am just trying to point out that that is listening to the people in the spacious building and not a direct path to knowledge. Faith in Jesus Christ will take you to perfect knowledge more quickly than any other approach including skepticism. I once believed that secular learning was superior to faith based learning, I can empathize with that mode of thinking, but it is wrong. You will not arrive at a higher level of understanding by introducing negative "what-ifs." So, you take your wavering approach and I'll take my direct approach and we will leave it at that.

Why would you be sad for me if God did not exist, in under 100 years there would be no memory of this conversation for you and your sadness would not change a thing in the universe. Love, joy, growth, service all come from God. That list you gave also would be nothing if there was no God. I believe there is a God. It has never crossed my mind that there isn't a God and maybe that is why I can't comprehend people that do not believe in God and yet they say they have a sense for what is "right and wrong." If one does not believe there is a God, which I believe is a very few number because even in those that claim that, in their heart of hearts they really do believe, those people have next to no morals and if they say they do it is all based on selfish, self gratifying tasks. I am saddened for you that you would make a serious statement about the possibility of there not being a God. "All these things are sumamente importante and meaningful regardless of whether or not God exists." My statement was a hypothetical statement to show how unproductive not believing in God is.... or did you take that out of context again and think those were my personal beliefs? If one does not believe in God (or supreme being or force, whatever), then they also do not believe in an afterlife. If there is no afterlife then everything we do here has no significance. There is nothing ... why even try to believe that? And lastly and most importantly, you have no right making judgments about what I find gratifying. "While you obviously do not, I find great and deeply gratifying..." The joy from those activities has much more of a significance when we know our lives go on after this life and our relationships continue on forever, just like a "till death do us part" marriage is not as gratifying as an eternal marriage. A fullness of joy comes from eternal happiness, not temporal happiness. There is no argument for joy without a God because in the end it amounts to nothing. The only reason you can make that list is because you do believe in God. Now, tell the truth, you believe in God, I know you do. You don't know what the list looks like for gratifying activities if you didn't believe in God, because you do believe in God. You can't pull the wool over my eyes and make it look like those things are possible if there was no God. Sorry, poor try!

What do you mean by 'interfere'? Alma 12 says that those that harden their hearts to them is given a lesser portion. One's agency is affected when there are fewer choices available. And the opposite when one has faith and diligence they will be given a greater degree of knowledge. When God appeared to Joseph, that suddenly 'interfered' with his agency. He no longer had the agency to believe in God by faith, because he saw Him. So, what do you mean by 'interfere'?

Well, I guess that is the thing I am having a hard time understanding. I've never thought of spirits and intelligences as being made up of separate matter. I thought they were made of the same matter. I can easily see how things not made up of the same matter can occupy one space like the spirit and the body. I have a hard time comprehending the same type of matter occupying the same space though. So you would say a spirit could enter another spirit?

I don't know, I was just responding to posts in this thread about wanting to know if it is real. My point is that there is no value in knowing if God is real or not for most of us, unless one is of the select chosen to be a witness. And that is something God has to choose, we don't have power to suggest that God makes any one of us a witness. We can ask for truth, which is all Joseph Smith asked for, he didn't ask to see God. For the rest of us, we have to operate under faith. My point is that if the hypothesis of God not being real is true, by discovering that, you have not gained anything, in fact, you have just lost everything. So, what is the reason to even consider that? And if you knew all, that would be like getting the answer sheet to a test, then the test is invalid. Why would you want to disrupt Gods plan by negating the test? .... in other words, it is not true that it would help to know if God is real or not for most of us. If you have your calling and election made sure ... go for it, otherwise its a wasted effort. This is synonymous to asking for a sign.

I'll take a stab at Justice's questions before he gets back from work... Death is the separation of the mortal body from the spirit. Even in cases of translation, the mortal body was taken from the spirit and in no time changed to an immortal body without them "tasting" death. Death marks the end of the probationary state. If a test (probationary state) goes on forever it no longer is a test but life. A 'test' has to have an end to tally up the score. Once the score is tallied then a full accounting and respective award can take place. You can't have complete redemption until the test is over. Also this body is corrupted, it is of a lower form than Gods that can't exist in His presence. To even have a chance to be in His presence we can't remain in this corrupted form. This body is not capable of doing what God's body can. It would be like saying I'm going to make a flight simulator really fly. No matter how hard you try and no matter how adept you are at using the simulator you are never going to get a flight simulator off the ground without actually having a plane. We have to trade in our simulators for the real thing eventually. The trade in requires separation of your spirit from it, death.

Let's look at the flip side: Let's just say that God is not real, hypothetically ... what do you have to gain by knowing that? Absolutely nothing! Because if there is no God, then everything we do here in this existence turns to nothing, your life has no meaning, my life has no meaning ... there is nothing to gain by even thinking that way. What would you do differently if you knew for sure that God did not exist? No matter what you tell me ... travel the world ... be more sexually active .... go out like Bonnie and Clyde ... or just not work so hard to be good, whatever .... it wouldn't matter because in the end, there would be nothing and it made no difference at all. So what is the point of wondering such things, it serves no purpose at all.

I think a metaphor to understand how LDS think of salvation and the difference between just believing and action is think about getting an advanced education. One can go to a college campus and walk around and even attend some of the classes and know that it is real and believe in the power of an advanced education. But if one really wants to take advantage of it you have to qualify, apply for acceptance. And then you have to sign a contract (like a covenant). Only then can the college really be a partner in helping you achieve your advanced education. It can guide you to take the right classes and learn the right material. You say "submit to an ordinance" like you think it is a repressive thing, it's the opposite, like signing the acceptance to a college or signing mortgage papers (if it's not a bad mortgage). These covenants can open opportunities that weren't there before. Covenants are like the sting on a kite, without it the kite doesn't fly. Is there nothing gained by a marriage covenant? Even that covenant is being attacked. It's sad that people are losing sight of the power of covenants. I think the reflection of the 'do it yourself approach' is to reject covenants. That is the necessary belief that goes hand in hand with the belief that all one has to do is believe in Jesus. Covenants require authority. And so when one does not know where to find authority or doesn't believe it exists other than in the form of a book then that person has to reject covenants. And if one rejects covenants than it is more convenient to say that man does not have to do anything for salvation. All these things go hand in hand. We believe this life is a test. If it is, someone has to administer the test, you can't give the test to yourself, this is why it is necessary to have ongoing direction and administration. And because it is a test, one can't be 'given' the answers. It requires action to complete the test. It isn't a one question test, "Do you believe that Jesus is your savior?" It is a series of tests, of which the questions are increasingly more and more complex, what we call the refiners fire. There is no refinement in a one question test. The perfecting process is one that requires patience and longsuffering. There is no longsuffering in "Do you believe Jesus is your savior?" yes? okay, you pass.

You know of a God that doesn't 'hide' Himself, please share.

I think it is possible though to believe in a lie after it is said so many times and argued over. I agree that it started out as a lie, it still is a lie, but in Satan's mind it could be 'right' in his mind. And now he has got in his head "I'll show you my idea was better by destroying yours." Even though that is a lie too, he can't destroy Gods plan. I think this is why he still presents this idea in many other circles. It has even been brought up in this forum several times in different fashions since I've been a member, questions like "what if we only had 'good' choices" and 'is Satan necessary?" I don't think its smart or clever, just the idea itself is appealing to many. Its an attractive concept that everyone gets everything without trying even though it is impossible. Kind of like the idea that stimulus money will turn the economy around. It becomes so attractive people don't think through the implications of it, so it becomes a lie.

When we choose to follow God, its not a single moment in time and then let go. At least for me, its a constant conscious decision and active process to remind myself of my covenants and choose to follow God every day. I am in control by choosing to follow God every moment of every day, because if I let go of that control the natural man is an enemy to God and we slip away. Letting go is not good, it takes controlling power to keep holding on every day (at least in my world). Good thoughts!

It doesn't bother me so much because I believe it is only after this life that we will get a perfect knowledge. That's how people get ulcers, worrying about things they have no control over. And secondly, I look at this life as a test. When I take a test that says, "John had 12 apples and gave 4 to Sally and 3 to Henry and ate one on the way home. How many apples did John have when he returned home?" I don't ask if that is real or not. Or ask if those people really exist, demanding to see John and Sally and Henry in person before I answer the question, I just answer the question. In reality (haha- laugh at my own joke), none of this is real because it is a probationary state, its a test. So, when we get to be responsible for the real stuff we will be ready to handle it. It's like learning in the garden before running the farm. In the long run it won't hurt the farm if you mess up the garden only in that Father might not let that person run the farm later. Like a flight simulator, is that real? Yes, it is real, there is a flight simulator there, but you aren't really flying. If you crash the flight simulator did you really crash a plane full of people, no, but you may (if part of a test) not be able to ever fly and so the loss is real. The consequences are real. I had a friend who dropped out of High School with that same reasoning, "when am I going to use this stuff in real life" attitude. So she didn't study, didn't take it serious and now suffers from that decision. So, this is why I don't worry about it being real or not, I still have to act like it is and if I even thought a little that it wasn't that would only hurt me in the end.

2 Nephi 2 :9 "And our spirits must have become alike unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents ..." Isaiah or Jacob, whoever, didn't have a problem saying it was both Adam and Eve who were beguiled by Satan, "beguiled our first parents"

But it does ... there is no question if you don't consider beer a 'mild drink.' To ask that question, I think you have to show that beer is a 'mild drink.' How is it that you drew the line there? There were probably more drinks that were made from grains back in the day that contained very little if any alcohol. Nowadays, I think it would be very hard to include all beers, by just saying the name 'beer', into a category of 'mild drink.' That's my opinion. But often times I try to follow the commandments without understanding the purpose or reasoning behind them. I just think you need to explain why you think 'beer' is a 'mild drink' to include any non-drinkers in the conversation.

I didn't say "fall from immortality" I said "fall from perfect immortality". Of course Adam was immortal and fell, but he did not have a perfected immortal body, an exahlted body.

I still have a hard time wrapping my head around this idea that matter has a spirit of its own. If that is true, than we are a mix of billions of spirits into one because my body is made up of billions of atoms (or more). And then under that I have my actual spirit, so my spirit would be mixed with many other spirits and as I eat food I am gaining spirit (not just weight) - (thinking, cool, I can justify another piece of desert tonight ) Or if I take one rock and break it into little pieces, am I making spirits? My feeling is that God created the world spiritually and all living things spiritually. Where are the scriptures that talk about rocks and atoms having a spirit to make them a soul? Must of taken several millennia to create each individual spirit that goes into the gazillions of viruses out there. I think there is a difference between creating things spiritually (i.e.- God planning to do something) and creating a spirit. ...but, as I am often wrong, please help me understand.

Right, I just wouldn't call them talents, more like traits. ... Like the hardware of a computer before any software is loaded. The computer can be "foreordained" to be the copy room computer or the receptionists computer or the main office computer or the server depending on its 'traits' but still needs the added software to actually carry out those tasks. But a high end computer without any added software just sits there or is limited in its function. Luckily all of us in the end will have all the software anyone ever had, we will have a perfect knowledge.

I wouldn't call beer a 'mild drink' especially after someone drinking a 'mild drink' killed my cousin, drunk driving. In the trial it was revealed, that's all he had was beer.

Whenever I read that King Follett Sermon, I see it as JS explaining the difference between God making a physical body, like what He did with Adam and Eve and making a spiritual body which is what He did for our spirits. The difference being He created Adam and Eve from the earth which is in essence from scratch. Where with spirits He creates them by other means, possibly (we don't know) how we 'create' children here. If you think about it, when we procreate here, the material to make the baby was always around for us, it wasn't from scratch. And so if Heavenly Father and Mother 'create' a baby spirit in similar manner, the material to form that spirit child was always around, it was not created from scratch, it was more of a procreation. I think if you read that talk in that light, every time he talks about the spirit formation it makes sense to me. If HF and HM have a spirit child you have to call it procreate and not create. It doesn't give us the details but thats how I read it. And you have to keep in mind, a lot of people he was talking to believe the deceased existence began at this earthly birth. He is trying to explain that he will continue to exist after birth just like he existed before his earthly birth, a way of comforting the family about death.

I agree with 99% of what you say here, especially with Jesus requiring atonement. I disagree with your view of spirits developing talents in the pre-earthly life and so those people are put into matching circumstances here. How would one know what earthly things you would like until you experience it. Would you know you like the taste of Root Beer before coming here? no!, likewise you would not know the joys of playing piano, the bag pipes or soccer or other activities requiring a body. I don't know what Mozart was good at before coming here, nor do you. Like the parable of the 10 talents, those talents were given as a test, to see if the servants would be faithful in a little so they can become masters of more. Each portion we are given here, does not have a linear relationship with our spiritual propensities of the pre-earthly life, in fact it may have an inverse relationship. Those that are low will be made high. This existence is a test primarily and the exact test that I need may be different than your test and anyone else. I think the given talents here are part of what God sees as our test of heart and desires. Of course, if someone has a valiant spirit in the pre-earthly life they will continue to be valiant and obedient in this life and no matter what grouping of talents they were given they will probably excel. You think Shaquel O'neal learned how to play basketball in the pre-earthly life, I don't think so. I like to surf, and am pretty good at it, but I doubt there were waves to surf in the pre-earthly life and for that matter, likely won't be a needed skill for any of my future jobs in the here after. What about all the babies that are born with Down's, is that a reflection of their talents, just the opposite ... because they were so valiant, more valiant than you and me, their talents are limited. The only relationship we know about with valiancy and obedience to this life are those that are foreordained to positions of authority in God's church, not talents. Of course, when one is valiant in the teachings of Christ their talents will improve faster. I personally believe we spent zero time developing earthly talents, that is why we had to come here, to learn what those are with a body. Its hard to develop body related talents, like playing a piano without actually having a piano. In fact there was a GA talk that even used that metaphor, something about a master of music trying to teach music without any musical instruments as an example of the reason we needed to come here. I think one may find they really loved music in the pre-earthly life but here had no desire for it, the body and the veil itself cover a lot.

Its interesting how the majority of people that call themselves religious in this world would not care an ounce about increase, they just want to be 'saved.'

Even then, a secret-name, unique to an individual is hardly "secret knowledge." Understanding the meaning behind it could be secret, but I think again, this is not secret it is sacred and not kept from anyone who really wants that information. I think all religions require some knowledge, knowledge of Christ or parts of their gospel that can only really be gained by attending some meeting or form of instruction or study, are those secret too then?

I appreciate your comments. This might be hard to understand for a man, I don't know, but I really don't think she is jealous, rather she is feeling insecure. Us girly types like to feel secure, that everything will be okay for a long time. I think if she knew for sure that he would not have to be with her in the next life, she would be okay with that. It's hard for her to hear that and yet the records remain unchanged. I can see how that would take a lot of trust to feel okay with it. I've said most of these things to her, not as well as some of you have said it and without authority to talk about these things but still she feels insecure about it. She is meeting with the stake president next week, I'll report back if she says its okay. I'm curious to hear what he says.

This is great! very funny! ... it's too bad though people sometimes believe that God actually makes people the way they are. I didn't know God looked like an old smurf.