Seminarysnoozer

We are allowed to judge for ourselves right versus wrong. "Being judgmental" implies expressing to someone conclusions made based on what one thinks they know about their actions and circumstances. The problem with "being judgmental" is that in essence one is trying to take on God's all knowing power which includes understanding another's intentions and desires of the heart. We can make general judgments about right and wrong, like it is wrong to smoke pot. But, we can't say that so-and-so is wrong for smoking pot without being in a position to receive God's all knowing judgment, i.e. - a bishop, or even a father or mother over their child. In my opinion, "being judgmental" is always wrong where smoking pot requires more insight to know if in any particular circumstance it is wrong and to what degree. So the smoking pot in general is wrong and should be avoided but I don't have the authority to tell any particular person that what they are doing is wrong - (unless it is my teenage daughter.)

It seems most of the thread is focusing on point #1 above. #2 caught my eye more than #1. I think it is difficult to make any determinations about justice as I don't think justice has been served yet. I thought that God's justice, and benevolence for that matter, happens mostly after this life. Am I wrong?

I guess I am too simple minded to follow how you are saying "my church" refers to anything other than the church he was referring to in the verse right before the one you mentioned. And if you read that whole section, the section is talking about manuscripts that were taken away for evil purposes and so, God in his wisdom does not fall for that trap, trying to get Joseph Smith to re-translate that manuscript and those evil people catching him in a re-translation error. So He said that He will not give it all now, only on the faithfulness of the members of the church will he give those parts of the gospel. But he doesn't withhold it to destroy the church but to build up the faith of the members and when they are ready will include more prophecy from which that what was taken. Why is it any more complicated than that? His church is the same that was established when Jesus was here and which was established with the Nephites from which that verse is referring to in D&C, about the book of Lehi. The Nephites wished anyone on this land that had faith would receive this gospel, not to destroy what was done but to reestablish and restore and build up that which was part of the original church, or "His church." I don't see anything referring to the Devils church or anything else. We see the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as the same church that was established when He was here and with the Nephites. The reestablishing of His church was revealed to Joseph many years before it was actually, officially restored. right?

I don't think it is because of the value of searching in and of itself. It is more of a question of how one learns things spiritually versus secular learning. One has to learn spiritual things spiritually. Confusion comes from the secular thinking interfering with pure spiritual knowledge. Part of the purpose of this life is to learn how to overcome the passions of this body which include anxiety, frustration and confusion. The learning process isn't so much gathering facts as it is not letting temporal things get in the way of your understanding. Like I said, I think what you said; "I've wished everyone knew what the truth was, and that the challenges of life focused on exercising agency in the harmony with these known truths that are clearly exposed to everyone from the start" is true. The second someone decides not to listen to the promptings from the light of Christ we are all born with is the second they have already exercised their agency against what they know inside. Like I said, I think this happens at a young age, maybe 9, 10 years old even and in some continues to the point of not even believing in a God. If you are asking why can't everyone comprehend spiritual things on a temporal level, well that is just not possible. 1 Cor 2:13-14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

As many have already stated (just adding my two cents) we were taught the fullness of the gospel (i.e. - the plan of Salvation) before coming here, before this world began. You know it, I know it, we just have to get in touch with our spirit knowledge, this is why we use words like "feel" or "desires of the heart". It is more about remembering as opposed to learning something new. We sometimes express it as learning something new, finding the truth, discovering the truth, but in reality it is in us from the start. So to answer the question, we have been given the truth before we came here and everyone here signed the bottom line, so to speak. We knew what we were getting ourselves into. And we rejoiced at the thought of it. Anyone in any culture or circumstance can ponder the feelings of their heart and listen to the light of Christ they carry with them and ask for more. Where more is given more is expected but God in the end will take all of that into account. The person given one talent only needs to double it just like the one given 5 or 10. The person given one, is still capable of doubling it. We all know from the outset, this is why Christ wants us to be like little children to once again listen to those promptings. Over time though we all harden our hearts to one extent or another. Deciding to watch the rated R movie when one is 12, or playing video games instead of reading the Bible when you are 10, etc. Little things that start very young is what keeps people from not remembering what has been already given. Then, repentance and faith are required to get it back. I understand your question because I felt that way too at one point in my life. But, then you realize you've had it all along it was just covered up.

How did you arrive at that statement? "It does not state for those kingdoms above HIM either." Kingdoms above God? or Kingdoms above Eugene England? What do you mean progression does not end in the Celestial Kingdom? One can progress beyond the Celestial Kingdom? I've never heard that before. Of course, we know there is continued progression in the Celestial Kingdom, but beyond it?

I think your metaphor would be more exact comparing a bicycle and a space shuttle, one could never leave the gravity pull of this earth. The final judgment is based on desires of the heart and what was done here to show those desires. We matured as spirits before coming here, our progression was extensive before this life, at least enough to call some valiant. Now is the time to have a change of heart if one is to be had. After this life, I don't think a change of heart is possible and the bicycle will always be a bicycle but could never become a space shuttle. If there is any progression in the lower kingdoms, it is probably limited to those kingdoms. I don't believe the kingdom assignment is based on knowledge alone, if that were the case then I could see how someone might get there eventually like the slow moving bicycle, relatively. But, it is more than knowledge, it is the character of the heart, ones desires and passions, and even given eternity I don't think that would change or could change after this life.

Real Salt Lake Soccer team winning L.A. Galaxy is proof of the power of prayer, and unfair advantage... (Just kidding). I was hoping for L.A. to win but it was a good game, and congrats to Salt Lake!

I think most LDS, (maybe I am wrong), believe that we developed for quite some time before this world began, that is how some became valiant and others not. This final step in our development was necessary because we couldn't really 'learn' anything more without having this mortal, physical existence. This life is more like the 'final exam' than it is kindergarten. I think if there is something that can be learned to this point (not talking about eternal progression) than it was probably already learned before we came here and the veil erases it from our memory. Any amount of learning obtained here will be to one's advantage but not necessary so long as the gospel essentials are understood and followed. I believe that the things learned here are taken as 'experience' and not so much that memorizing all the past presidents of the United States, for example, would be helpful in the next life (or that kind of thing). I think there are many things that could be learned in the next life if it pertains to our stewardship but if it doesn't it would be like going back to study calculus again (I have never used calculus in my adult life and doubt I will have need for it in this lifetime). I think those that end up in the Terrestial and Telestial kingdoms will likely not feel like they need to learn anything more. This life is the time for repentance.

This is why in previous threads we have had that conversation about there being at least some part of the creation process that is out of His control. It must be as random as us having children. As spirit children there has to be some either random or some part of it that is not under Gods control in the creation of spirits. Because you can ask the same thing about the third of the host of heaven failing and even Lucifer himself failing.

I agree. After it is all decided and we have full knowledge of why we are placed in any particular Kingdom we will realize that is the Kingdom of our "dreams." We will be placed according to the desire of our hearts. As a partial description, if one doesn't like to work your behind off for God's purposes, in other words, with all your heart might mind and strength... well God wouldn't be so cruel as to put that person with everyone else that is of that mind. If one enjoys skating by, doing the bare minimum, there are like minded folks for that kingdom. And there is a kingdom for people that don't care one way or the other and just tried to 'take care of number 1' throughout their existence here. We all get what we want, yeah!! No need to want to switch later. Of course the higher Kingdoms will have some authority over the others and will likely visit them from time to time, is what I understand.

I appreciate your responses, it is helping me ponder these things more than I ever have. Even though I am responding more one sided, I am seeing it both ways and have not come to any conclusions. It is not for a lack of trying to understand, I just think it is one of these things that I will probably continue to wonder about until the second coming. It won't affect my testimony either way. I am simply stuck on picturing Adam and Eve like the movie "Blue Lagoon" where they are naive about their feelings until they reach 'puberty' then it becomes obvious. Part of that reluctance is knowing that they were married, seemingly, right from the start. And Adam understanding Eve's creation and purpose right from the start (seemingly). Of course, there is not much as to a time reference and many things about the story are symbolic. I think one would lean towards Adam and Eve being first created as babies if one believes the only (or at least most important reason) they didn't have sex and procreate is because they didn't know how. I am torn, but lean more towards them being knowledgeable but obedient, just the same as my husband has a sense of what it is like to give birth as he has seen it happen 4 times, but will never really know what it feels like. He knows what it is to give birth, the mechanics of it, the process but can't do it himself. If his body were to somehow acquire female anatomy (first of all I would leave him ... but) he wouldn't have to acquire any further knowledge to give birth. I tend to think if they were so naive about the whole thing, just like some 12, 13 year olds, would be curious and accidentally procreate not really understanding. If all the reproductive parts are there, I think one would have to consciously abstain with knowledge of the consequences and thus not need any training about 'seeds'. But if the reproductive parts weren't even there .... then one could safely 'grow up' naive and be taught about 'seeds' etc. as they were married and sex would not be a sin and they were told to multiply. I can't see that there would be anything holding them back from trying if they had to learn about it and they had the physical capability before the fall. Its like giving the keys to the car to the 15 year old before driving lessons are completed, it would not be wise to hand over the keys until the license is obtained. I don't think you would even call it a transgression if there was no sense of every other time being obedient. If it was a completely ignorant choice it would have simply been called a 'choice' to eat the fruit and not even a transgression. There had to be some foreknowledge to call it a transgression, especially a transgression that deserves permanent consequences. Anyways .... its an interesting topic, and I will continue to ponder all these possibilities. Thanks for your responses Justice.

I think worship is any activity that helps one develop love, adoration of God as many have already said. The practice of worshiping though I think is to help us eventually do everything with God's purpose in mind. I think its the only way to work towards full heart, might, mind and strength love of God, through Jesus Christ' gospel. It's to get to the point of every 'mundane' activity of every day with God's purpose as the main motivation in our lives. Without worship we drift to selfish causes, that is our 'natural' self.

God does not create universal laws. Free choice by definition means there are options that are not the same option. To give the option for good there has to be the option for bad. One cannot be given without the other and this is a law or definition that cannot change any more than 1+1=2. So, then it comes down to whether it is better to keep all of His children in a state of no choice or to give them choice with evil being one of the options associated with that choice. Didn't we already win this battle in the pre-earthly life? ..... Oh yeah, Satan wants to keep fighting that battle.

Why is that such an important thing to you, I am curious. Why does that not jive with you, if their bodies were different or could not even reproduce before the fall. Does that affect some big perception of how things went down. I am trying to understand the resistance to that idea. When I read Russel M. Nelson say, "Adam and Eve were first created with bodies of flesh and spirit, without blood, and were unable to die or beget children." I see everything in that sentence refering to the body - the flesh the blood, the spirit connecting to the body and the dieing. Why would everything in that sentence be about the body except the begetting children part? Maybe it is, but that seems odd to me. Also, I don't think I need to explain any further that without blood the male contribution to the procreation process falls short.

Despite all my postings, I think I mostly believe that they didn't know how but I think it is more like not knowing how to ride a bike if all you are given is verbal instruction on how to ride a bike, you still have to get on and try and fall a few times. I can't imagine countless years going by in pre-earthly life, living in the presence of our Heavenly Father, receiving instruction and even being presented the plan and Michael participating in the construction of this world and spending a time in the garden with God, without a veil that the question didn't come up "So, Father, how does this reproduction thing work?" In our fumbling way, look how far science has come in our day. I can't imagine in the eons of preexistence that we didn't learn about most everything, its just when we got here the veil was placed, so we forgot it all. But at that moment of temptation in the garden, I don't think they were ignorant about reproduction or how the mortal body works, the only thing they didn't know is what it feels like, what the experience is like and how to control those feelings and manage the 'out-of-control' natural state. I absolutely do not think Adam and Eve were immature bone heads. They were innocent but not dumb, there is a difference. They, I believe could probably tell you more about human physiology and anatomy before the fall, then we currently know. The thing they couldn't tell before the fall was what it feels like to experience that nature. I have a hard time believing that they weren't perfectly aware of the plan and how spirits were going to be brought into this world and how that whole thing works. I know I would have asked that question, "So, why are we here? What is it you wanted us to do? How is that going to happen?" After the fall, yes, they may have lost some memory as to that with the veil. But before, I think they knew more than even we do now.

Like I said I agree with most things you said. I am simply giving more emphasis on certain things even though it is roughly the same line. The mortal body is a result of us keeping our first estate. It came from what we did before we came here. The receiving of the body is just a step in that whole process. But, the mortal body itself turns to dust. Metaphorically, It is like the training wheels on a bike, after one has learned how to ride, they wouldn't hold onto the training wheels or be satisfied with knowing how to ride with training wheels. The goal is to ride without training wheels. In other words, to ride without all the "natural" constraints of this world. After I ride without training wheels I will throw them away, they serve no more purpose. Those that didn't keep their first estate don't even get to ride, in that metaphor, we weren't talking about them. And so, to 'ride' even with training wheels is better than not riding at all, but the goal still is to ride without them. This life is a small but necessary step to where we are going. But I do believe after you have been 'riding bike' for many billions of years the 'training wheels' will seem as important as the one or two months of holding onto the little stub of the very umbilical cord we are talking about. I agree with needing to pass through this existence, but I do not think that powers come directly from this mortal, vile, corrupted death of a body. (if I have said that strongly enough) "Powers" will come from the power of the priesthood, through the spirit and will be unhampered by a perfected glorified body, that's how I believe it will be. And there likely is further learning with a perfected body for things that are not available here. There is a need for the body, I don't think it has been revealed to us exactly why but it is necessary in all Kingdoms of glory to have a spirit combined with a body that will never separate, not just those that can procreate. The purpose of this mortal body is to create a test like setting, to prove that we are worthy of that glory. Metaphorically speaking, after you pass your exam on the flight simulator you move on to the real thing, you don't stay on the simulator because the simulator by itself doesn't really let you fly. Everything we create in this body turns to dust in the end, so all that is taken from it is spiritual in nature, knowledge, experience, intelligence, relationships, "job well done faithful servant" etc.

Yes, I think we disagree in some things. Overall, I think we agree on most things. Your last paragraph outlines a little of what I would probably say differently. You quote the powers of the "mortal body," I think those powers are very small if anything, especially when scriptures say the natural man is an enemy to God. But, this is only since the fall of Adam. In other words, pre-fall Adam's body was not an enemy to God. We are to learn how to overcome the passions of this world and then when we make it to the next life we are relieved of those passions, we enter into a rest from the worries of this world. In other words the opposite of what happened with the fall is what will happen with the resurrection. So understanding what happens with the resurrection will help us understand what happened with the fall. Those two things are tied together. Not everyone that receives a resurrected body will have the ability to procreate. (Unless, you believe they do, they just are kept from doing so by some kind of enforcement .... it certainly won't be from innocence at that point.) So, I speculate most resurrected bodies cannot procreate. Or maybe you don't believe that? Maybe an individual in the Telestial Kingdom could procreate physically but is somehow kept from it, I don't know. I tend to think their bodies will not have that ability. And if that is true, then there are 'perfected' bodies that can't procreate. So all those characteristics described in that last paragraph of yours, I think stem from the spirit, not the body... enjoyable emotions, sensations, pro-creation abilities, intelligence. The refiners fire is for the spirit, not to refine the body. This probationary period is to prove our spirits not prove the body otherwise those that die young or those that have trisomy 21 or 18 wouldn't have learned much to deserve exalted status. Don't get me wrong, I think procreation is a wonderful thing, I have 4 beautiful children. I just think all those qualities you hold high in that last paragraph stem from the spirit not the body. Alma said: “All men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.” And: The natural man is proud. The natural man’s most distinguishing feature is pride, which, as President Ezra Taft Benson has noted, is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward man. The look of the natural man is neither up (to God) nor over (to man), except as the horizontal glance allows him to compete with his fellows. “Pride is essentially competitive in nature,” President Benson explained. “We pit our will against God’s. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of ‘my will and not thine be done.’ … The proud wish God would agree with them.” I think the exalted body taking on mortal characteristics as you stated in that last paragraph is that "wishing God would agree with them" thinking that President Benson mentions. There may be some small attributes that our body takes on from the exalted form but not the other way around. Our bodies are vile, corrupt and proud. It is only when we put off the natural man that we can reach that exalted state, then we will be privileged to have a body that won't be driven by those vile passions. A procreation ability is given to the most evil of us all on this world and unfortunately is not under the control of the spirit by most, that's why more than half of children born in the United States are born to broken families. I think the most important aspect of procreation is not sex, it is the coming together of two spirits who have the same glorified purpose in mind to bring one of God's spirits to this world to participate in His overall purpose of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. When that is the purpose, the experience is edifying to the spirit. Just like most abilities of the body, it can be used for both good and bad, but what changes that is not the body itself, it is the spirit that changes the purpose. That is the experience we hope to take to the next life, not how to have sex as even the lowest of the lowest Kingdom will likely know that.

Thanks, Justice

Why is it clear they did not have the knowledge? What did Adam talk about with God all day long? God created their bodies in a paradisiacal state with the ability to fall which isn't the same thing as a glorified body, at least that's what I think. Russell M. Nelson said, "The creation of Adam and Eve was a paradisiacal creation, one that required a significant change before they could fulfill the commandment to have children and thus provide earthly bodies for premortal spirit sons and daughters of God." (I added the underline) Ensign 1996 To me that says pretty clearly they couldn't physically have children, but maybe I am reading too much into that?

You say this, that a glorified being could not fall again. Well, with that same logic, how could two glorified beings bodies that are glorified procreate a non-glorified body in which a (relatively) young spirit is placed? If you believe they procreate spirits, then there are two procreation processes? one for the spirit, one for the body? Or are you saying the mother in this case is not Heavenly?

I believe one has to be in the highest level of the celestial kingdom to have the opportunity to participate in eternal increase, which means having to come to earth to get a body, and participate in the gospel and all of the ordinances etc. That does not cut women out from obtaining a body here. In fact it necessitates receiving a body, to prepare for the possibility of having spiritual children in the future. I never said a woman is not needed in that process, just that I don't see the procreation process needed in that step necessarily any more than I see our procreation abilities needed in creating a plant or fish or bird. This body we have now will return to where it came, to dust. This existence is a very small fraction of all eternity, it wouldn't bother me at all if a woman's reproductive ability is not used in the original formation of this temporal existence. For the spirit yes or for the exalted body, never to be separated from the spirit maybe. But this corrupted, dust to dust body, it doesn't bother me one bit. There is nothing illogical about that. I guess it comes down to if one believes the pre-fall Adam and Eve couldn't procreate because they were commanded not to, or because they didn't know how or because they didn't have the parts for it. Because whatever the way it was done for Adam and Eve it was probably similar for all the animals. If one thinks it is because their bodies had to change to be able to procreate (which would also help explain why they suddenly were embarrassed by their nakedness among other things) then you would have to ask, How could a being procreate another being that couldn't in turn procreate? Unless it was a flawed version, which I don't believe is the case. Or unless it was just created with modifications for that purpose, to exist in a paradisiacal state without death or procreation. Maybe it was the tree of life that made them sterile?

I am a woman, so I am all in favor of supporting women in the grand scheme of things! :) I don't understand the last question there. There are many things that are different in mortality than in a paradisiacal state. I happen to believe women are needed in the creation of spirits and that is why our experience is needed here. The creation of a temporary body that was made to fall, I don't see that as requiring male and female, more than I see regenerating heart tissue from a stem cell requiring male and female direct inputs. And especially a perfect Male and Female body generating a body that would be allowed to fall. Joseph F. Smith also described the process as a transplant from another world. Well, to me that could also mean taking some of the tissue, or even the genetic code and using the available elements here making a body to start the whole process here. In essence it comes from some previous mother and father as it had to at some point. But knowing the full code for a perfect body, the components can be put together with enough knowledge to 'create' a body, breathing life into it with the spirit that was made by a Heavenly mother and father. Do you think God needed two genders for every animal on the earth? I don't think we know all those details. Just like explaining in vitro fertilization to a scientist 1000 years ago would have sounded impossible to that scientist.

Death is necessary to return to our Heavenly Father's presence, why would this be called evil, if God finishes their probationary period sooner than expected? If a person tries to take that power in their own hands, i.e. murder, then that person has done something evil. God not preventing the murder is not evil, he allows that person to end their probationary period earlier than most, like finishing college in 2 years in stead of 4. I don't see anything evil about that. Also to judge, there has to be an action to judge against, He can't judge someone ahead of time like in the movie "Minority Report". If a natural disaster brings home hundreds of God's children, I don't see that as evil.

I am not trying to argue against your beliefs, I am trying to understand how you arrived at your conclusions. You asked, How would Adam know of a 'mother'? And I answered Adam didn't write Genesis. And I explained that Adam walked with God and knew of the whole plan and the importance of a man or woman to leave his or her parents in the future and to cling to his/her spouse from all that discussion with God. I still don't see anything that says Adam was reared as a 'baby' into a man in the scriptures. If it is true, great, it wouldn't change any ounce of my testimony of the gospel, I am just trying to understand the thought process that leads to that conclusion. Especially, to the strength of your conviction about the whole thing .... I think most would say, simply 'we don't know for sure'.