Seminarysnoozer
-
Posts
3421 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Seminarysnoozer
-
-
Three ideas:
1. Our spirits are made of matter (D&C 131:7)
2. Our spirits are gnolaum – that is, without beginning or end (Abraham 3:18)
3. Matter had a beginning, only coming into existence sometime after the Big Bang
Can these statements be reconciled with each other ? If so, how? If not, which one is not true or needs to be reinterpreted/reconstructured?
There is fine matter and there is course matter. There is nothing within our current knowledge that suggests the two naturally exist together. Therefore any study about the "origin" of course matter does not necessarily apply to fine matter. We have no real knowledge of fine matter, only that it exists. We can't talk about it's beginning or it's real relationship to any known science or "knowledge of man" understanding of such.
Even when we talk about eventually earning a resurrected body (a physical body with the spirit body), it was only through careful and specific works that this could be done, not a "natural" condition related to spirit matter. Even then, we don't know the make up of the resurrected body and I would assume it would be made up of fine matter anyways.
-
I am putting forth the notion that "exalted" is the state that is compatable to the presents of G-d the Father. I do not understandy why you object to that defination. Please be specific.
I don't reject it but it is too vague for the things that we were talking about. This is Gospel Principle's description of Exaltation, which is one of our basic understanings of the gospel; "
Exaltation- •
What is exaltation?
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.
If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with our Heavenly Father in eternal families. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give His children (see D&C 14:7)."
So the true use of the word exalted also includes having all knowledge and all wisdom and living with the same glory God has, not just living in His presence. It is a gift that is given if worthy after we have completed the first and second estates. If that is how exaltation is defined then we did not have that before this world began.
- •
-
Just wondering; for the clarification of terms - what is the difference in loving with al one's heart and loving something as we love ourselves? Would it be okay to love our neighbors with all our heart and to love G-d as we love ourselves? For the sake of honesty I will admit there is a subsurface trick question hidden here -- It has to do with semantics and the definitions of terms used in scripture as opposed to the English language. Since such things are very important to you – I thought I would see how you deal with the question.
Loving someone or something with all our heart implies the underlying purpose of our activity which is synonymous to having an eye single to his glory. Loving someone as self implies empathy, it implies being able to understand another's feelings, circumstances, situation, struggles and to assist them in a very intimate way as one would do with a very close family member.
-
On the other hand, deeds of compassion and love are spiritual nutrients that keep your soul alive in ways that we don't fully understand now.
We understand them pretty well.
God's glory is dependent on bringing about the immortality and Eternal Life of man.
Why is that? It has to do with the fact that self achievement is limited. If we were to enjoy the successes equally as strong of others as if we did them ourselves then joy could be made endless.
Christ's act of the atonement is a demonstration of such power. It is the trait we all seek, to be able to feel what another feels, to mourn with those that mourn, to celebrate the success of one who achieves immortality and Eternal life, etc. The degree to which one looks at self for achievement and advancement is inversely proportional to that power. This is why it is important to remain humble, depend on Christ, take glory in Christ and not our own achievement and to learn to love our neighbors as we would ourselves. It is a tough thing to learn and is developed in the trenches of mortality.
If one could take on the deeds of others as if they did them their self then that could also apply to all those that came before, making a person endless in achievement but also in time with no beginning or end, it would give them Eternal Life.
-
Well, what stops those in outer darkness from pursuing art, enjoying nature, and enjoying friendships?
I'm not sure such an idea properly conveys what a kingdom of glory will be. Unless we presume (and perhaps this is the case) that those in outer darkness will literally be in darkness (blind), and perhaps rendered deaf and mute too, locked away in some place where they can never interact with anything or any one. It's possible. Maybe even probably. But it's all guesswork. But if they have sight, sound, smell, others around, etc., then what's to stop them from pursuing these things that "makes people truly happy"?
Moreover, if people can be "truly" happy there, then why are they lower kingdoms?
I'm not convinced.
The gradation in happiness is not so much in terms of what a person does but with whom they share it. The higher the Kingdom the more connected, the more they are "one", the lower the Kingdom the more they are like one star differing from another, separated and less connected.
The reason the greatest commandments are to love God with all our heart and to love neighbor as self is because that is the differing characteristic of those that find their self in the higher Kingdoms. When we love others as self then all of their achievements become our own, just like when my daughter gets an A in school becomes a different experience than any other kid in her class gets an A. If one is relatively (pun intended I suppose) disconnected then their is a limitation to happiness as it becomes more and more limited to just self achievement. If happiness is a function of someone else' achievement, which is to say to love thy neighbor as thy self then the happiness becomes endless and eternal.
It is not so much what is done but with whom it is shared. Of course, when it is shared more can be done.
-
We are told that we enter this live with a veil of forgetfulness over our minds. Many religions do not believe we have any memories but for LDS, the concept is we came to this life having forgotten all. It is necessary that we forget for this experience to be complete. Why? – that is part of what is forgotten. However we are told we exercised agency to come to earth and we will exercise agency to determine our next life. One reason I have speculated that we have forgotten all is for the same reason for the child game of pin the tail on the donkey. So we have an excuse for pinning the tail where it does not belong. Likewise we have excuse for our sins to make repentance possible. We cannot repent of something we do deliberately with no regret.
The assumption that we do not know things here in our mortal life because we never knew them; is an assumption based in the false teaching of the Great Apostasy that this life is the beginning of your choices. Thus it is we chose to make mistakes while blindfolded – however, it also appears to me that by our agency we chose previously the mistakes we would make – all is according to our own plan. If it is not according to our plan how can we claim agency? If we only act out G-d’s plan then the agency is his not ours.
There is one final way to consider this – this is through the lens of covenant. We came to earth because me made a covenant with G-d. What is that covenant we made with G-d? Perhaps before we answer that question we should ask the question – What is a covenant? And how does agency apply to covenant?
The covenant we made was to do the things we are told during this life despite forgetting what happened in the previous life. The covenant is like signign up for a college class, in the end there is a final exam and we would agree to be graded at the end of the course. Some people didn't want to be graded in the end so they left the program and then weren't allowed to take the final exam.
We have not forgotten all as we all came to this life with certain spiritual characteristics and the light of Christ. Those little things may seem like we came to this life starting with nothing but that is not true. It is over those little things that we are being tested, so it makes sense to isolate them during the test. It is like covering the chalk board and closing all the text books during an exam, then the test relates to personal knowledge. This test is that way. It is not a test to see if we follow the crowd or if it makes logical sense but one of personal character and integrity, will we do the things we said we would because that is our character, to be true to self, to have integrity.
This life could not be a test of character if we came to this world with none of our own character. It doesn't have to be 100% our character as God can sift out the stuff that comes from our carnal natures vs spiritual natures. He can take into account the servant that received one talent vs five and make an accounting of 'where much is given much is required.' In that way, the test isn't over the sum total of what one has but what one did with what was given. Then the test is about character and integrity and obedience and faith. The test is not over fund of knowledge or knowledge acquired while in this state (unless that was given as a test of obedience) but more about whether we do the things we are told, revealing our true nature, a Celestial one, a Terrestrial one or a Telestial nature.
-
ex·alt·ediɡˈzôltəd/adjectiveadjective: exalted
- 1.(of a person or their rank or status) placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard.
2.in a state of extreme happiness.Folk Prophet - of course you are correct. The heart and core of disagreement is almost always over a missunderstanding of terms. In this case - the phrase "exalted spiritual state".
I have already stated that if that is how you are using the term, to just mean "placed at a high or powerful level" then yes our spirits were exalted in that sense, if that is how you want to use the term. But I don't think that is how you wanted to use the term because earlier you said; "The difference between exaltation in the pre-existence and the Celestial Kingdom is that in the Celestial Kingdom we will face physical challenges where as in the pre-existence there were no physical temptations."
So, your only difference between your current use of the word exalted and the type of exalted that most people in the church use the term is the character of the challenges we face and not in the actual status of our spirit. Most people in the church would say that exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom is a much higher status than our pre-existence, much much higher, so much so that we would want to pass through mortality to get there. If all we get after passing through mortalilty is to return to the same spiritual state we left but now face additional challenges, I would venture to say that not just a third of the host of heavens would have dropped out of the program but probably 99%. If the only spiritual benefit from mortality was to receive a body then why have it be a probationary state or a state of testing? That would make no sense. If we don't change into a higher state of being spiritually from premortal life to Celestial glory than how could there be any difference between the three Kingdoms, they would all be the same, unless the Terrestrial and Telestial is a lower state of being from pre-mortality (which they aren't).
The whole plan of happiness tells us that the state of being before this life and then onto the next is different otherwise the plan would not be one of progression but lack of progression. This is why I have posted that McConkie quote several times, the step into mortality was 'downward and forward and onward'. It is a forward step, making it result, in the end, in a higher spiritual state than before. Clumping them together as the same lessens the value of the plan and the accomplishment of going through it.
-
-
I speculate that Lucifer may have been and fell from exaltation (being in the presents of the Father) - but lets try this - was the G-d of the Old Testiment (Jehovah) an exalted being? How about G-d the Holy Ghost?
Since we are now using the terms imprecisely as if to simply say a higher state than our current state then yes, they were exalted beings. To my understanding, though, they had not yet received their status of exaltation, meaning Eternal Life.
-
Rolling the dice is a good analogy. If we know the exact pre-position of the dice – the angle and force of the roll and the angles of the table and other obstacles shapes and positions – we can know every time how the dice will end up. It is not as some say random. The only reason to not know the result of anything is because enough of the initial conditions and parameters are not known. Random possibilities and agency look me to be opposing principles not complementary or supplementary concepts. If you know of the 5th roll the result will be snake eyes – there can be no randomness in that possibility. If something is random each case is separate and all the possibilities are exactly the same each time. For example if you rolled snake eyes 5 time in a row – the possibility for snake eyes is the same for each roll and will remain the same for the next. Likewise rolling snake eyes twice in a row was the same with the second and third roll.
If G-d knows something – why would he not tell us if indeed agency is an actual principle? My answer is that G-d did tell us and we made choices based on our agency and what he told us (what we knew). We cannot make choices concerning things we do not know. If G-d left out anything and we are forced to make an ignorant choice – We cannot argue that we exercised agency. By definition; those that know by their knowledge and their choice to withhold that knowledge are manipulating us for the outcome that they knew would be. Ignorance in this life is not for the purpose of agency – there has to be another reason.
I used the word "chance" I know but maybe the better word is odds. If the overall odds of getting Myotonic dystrophy from a parent who has MD, for example, is 50%, then taking all cases of known MD we know that 50% of the offspring of parents with MD get the disease, this is a calculable and fairly reliable "odds" that can't be changed really without some manipulation of genetic "laws" of inheritance.
Whether one individual within a family gets MD or not could possibly be known ahead of time and arrangements made for that particular spirit to have that body that is affected. Imagine with me, if you will, a family of 6 children waiting in Heaven to come to Earth, going to a family in which one parent has MD. Statistically 50% of the children with get it. Lets say Sally is the first one to arrive to this family. My question is, does God manipulate things so that Sally does not get MD or does God knowing ahead of time that the first child of this family would be a body that does not have MD and therefore Sally's spirit should go to that body? Or does God change the situation of the body to make it so Sally's body is kept from the disease, change the body, and then make it so the sibling gets the MD to keep the odds as they are, 50%.?
Or is it possible that all 6 children were sent to this family knowing that there was a "50%" chance of them getting MD and they all were okay with that (telling them ahead of time of the odds) either way? Why is it that God could not simply say, these are the possible situations you are going to end up with, in any case the test will be fair because I am aware of your situation and will judge accordingly but 50% of you are going to have this particular challenge.
There seems to be a component of chance or at least unkown in these familiar lyrics; "It may not be on the mountain height
Or over the stormy sea,It may not be at the battle's frontMy Lord will have need of me.But if, by a still, small voice he callsTo paths that I do not know,I'll answer, dear Lord, with my hand in thine:I'll go where you want me to go." -
For the record; I am with Einstein. I do not believe G-d rolls the dice with anything. I do not believe anything is left to chance and that all things can be known and are known and planned in advance. Where I differ in the determinism verses freewill discussions and arguments is that I believed we planned out our own mortal lives before we were born. I do not believe anything can or will happen that we did not know would happen and agree to and accept as part of our agency in the pre-existence for our mortal journey in this current life.
Why would we choose really stupid and bad things? Because we all get a “get out of jail (hell)” free card that we call the atonement, which we can play at the end if we so wish and choose. And as I understand the D&C – even if and how we use our “get out of hell” card was known in advance and that which was from the beginning is plainly made manifested.
The big problem we have in this life – is uncertainty. Since we do not know anything – we must live by faith that everything will turn out and that we will get exactly what we (along with everyone else) and G-d planned and worked out together.
It is possible to know what will happen even if it is by chance, those things are not mutually exclusive. If I roll the dice and I know I am going to roll snake eyes on the fifth roll, it could still be "chance" and yet it was forseen that the fifth roll was snake eyes. We can know what is going to happen to us is a set of random occurances and accept it. Can that not be true?
-
I will try again - Is a G-d an exalted being. I believe so – it appear from what you have posted; that you do not.
You are using the terms imprecisely (both "a God" and exalted) which makes it really hard to answer without qualifications and that is how I have had to answer. Our God is an exalted being, so we can get that one out of the way. Was Lucifer an exalted being? what do you think?
-
My 2 cents:
Does God play with dice? Absolutely! If He wants you to get snake-eyes, you will. If He doesn't, then you won't. If He doesn't care, then it'll be whatever.
Say a hypothetical child has 50% odds of inheriting a generic disease from a parent. If God wants that kid to have it, then he will (or vise versa). Or maybe God doesn't want to micro-manage things in this case.
Thanks for your comment. I think the thing I am pondering is an idea that randomness, or "rolling the dice" is a fallen state feature. Not that He necesarily plays with dice but allows it to happen because that is what happens with the corrupted state we are in.
I have a feeling that when He created the Garden of Eden, for example, there was no rolling the dice. It was done how it always was done in a very specific way. The Fall introduced change and randomness and "rolling the dice". Could that be true?
-
No nod to choice there, huh?
Well, wikipedia said it, so...I guess agency is a lie.
And the other thing left out is the personality we came to this world with, our spirit self.
-
God has infinite children. I suspect it's less like a librarian matching up spirits with "genetically compatible" parents, but clearly God has enough diversity to make everything match up.
So, you would say there is a need to match that up?
-
This seems entirely unanswerable. But I look forward to the debate you and Traveler have on it. :)
I was hoping to get you involved but okay ... its not like we haven't delved into the unanswerable before,
-
Anyone who has taken basic biology knows that Mendel's laws can help predict the rate of certain traits if one knows what the parents have and if the trait is a simple trait and which feature is dominant vs recessive. Patterns of inheritance are established for various diseases and traits such as Myotonic Dystrophy etc. Of course there are complex traits and traits are subject to genetic mutation etc.
Knowing that there is a calculable ratio of phenotypes passed on for those simple traits, does that clash with the idea that God has His hand in all things? Or can there be processes that are truly random and calculable?
For example, having facial dimples is a dominant trait so if one parent has dimples with one dominant gene and one recessive gene and the other parent has two recessive genes for facial dimples then the calculated ratio of children with facial dimples is 1/4 their offspring. Does God just happen to, by having "His hand in all things" make it so that ratio is met every time or does He sometimes leave things to the randomness that is this fallen state of change and corruption?
Is it possible that God simply puts the spirits that need that certain combination of traits for this life are assigned to that body, knowing the odds and seeing the future would allow for that. Or does God take the spirit and manipulate the body to match the spirits needs no matter what the calculable odds are. For example if we know that 50% of the children of a parent that has Myotonic Dystrophy will be receive the gene mutation that causes Myotonic Dystrophy could we say that God could have "His hand in all things" and make it so 0% of the children get it or all of them? Or is it one of those things that is left to its calculable rate, a true random odds, like flipping a coin?
The side question would be, are the challenges we face in life so tailored that they have to be that manipulated to match a given spirit with some high level of specificity that most of the genes have to match that spirit's profile or is it more like the general calculable rate of variance, whatever the person ends up with for that set of alleles from the parents is within the range of things that spirit needs to be tested on, "letting the chips fall where they may", so-to-speak.
Or could it be that God knew the rate of combinations and knew ahead of time that Mary with green eyes would be attracted to Paul's brown eyes and so knew that that their child, Sam would have hazel eyes because of Mary's seemingly random attraction and knowing that Mary's dad lost his job because he fell asleep on the job and had to move to a different town where Paul happened to be? ... if the calculable rate of inheritance is really intentional it is mind blowing to think that God knows every choice and action that everyone would make to make it appear that it follows some Mendilian law.
-
Is our pre-existance spirit state exalted? - compared to our current state? Does a spirit come to this mortality as an exalted spirit - or do they come flawed (from something less than a pristine exalted state). I wish I could understand what it is you believe???
I have told you many times over that we are dual beings. I believe what the prophets have taught us regarding this principle. This is all hard to understand unless one believes that we are indeed dual beings at this moment, the physical body and the spirit self. Both are self and seemingly together in this existence but are separate and of separate natures.
We come into this life as a pure spirit but enter a corrupted body. The body is corrupted because of the Fall. Adam and Eve came into this life with a pure spirit and a paradisiacal body but one that could Fall and so it was not the perfected glorified body that we will receive with resurrection that depends on what Kingdom we enter.
At any given moment during this life we may be more spiritual than we are carnal and in some things we may be more spiritual than carnal. It is not an all or nothing state, it is a mixture of the two. The sum of the two, of course, is a fallen state because it is less than the state of the spirit's purity alone. As life goes on, if a person takes in the nature of the body as its own, learning to like the passions of the body over spiritual ones then purity is lost and carried through to the next life as a loss.
As we have discussed before, all infants that die before the age of 8 are pure from the "foundations of the world". They were never anything less than pure because of the atonement of Christ they remained untainted by the carnal body. They dwelled in a carnal body for a short moment and in that state, the sum of the spirit and body they are in a fallen state but the individual is not the carnal unless one has the agency to make it so. Under the age of 8 there is no agency to choose the carnal over the spiritual and so they cannot take on those traits. Their spirits remain pure, just like they entered this world.
-
Do you mean procreation within temple marriage or does this include crack babies?
We are all children of God, every one of us. We have all passed the first estate test which is a test of belief in God's plan, belief in a Savior, understanding the goodness of this plan and choosing it over not. We have all done that, down to the most lowly person, we are all valuable and will receive a state of glory for having passed the first estate test. This is how we view all of God's children, in our true state as a glorified eternal being.
Christ, knowing this plan of happiness, can love the sinner, can love the sick and the forgotten and can even say 'forgive them for they know not what they do' because He knows us as those souls who righteously passed the first estate test, standing up for God's plan over those that would tear it down.
-
Then I assume that you now finally agree (according to your own arguments) that Eden was not an exalted state unique to Adam and Eve? But I do wonder if you believe in the fall of man and if man fell from an exalted state of some sort? In short if the state was not exalted in some way -- how could there be a fall?
It is described as a paradisiacal state but one that could fall. It is a unique state. Mcconkie describes it this way, "And be it also remembered that the Fall was made possible because an infinite Creator, in the primeval day, made the earth and man and all forms of life in such a state that they could fall. This fall involved a change of status. All things were so created that they could fall or change, and thus was introduced the type and kind of existence needed to put into operation all of the terms and conditions of the Father’s eternal plan of salvation.
This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward."
It was a state in which the plan could move "forward and onward" through the Fall - a positive direction. In other words, the Fall of Adam and Eve allowed Adam and Eve and all of us to improve our condition. Adam and Eve's condition improved because of the Fall, not immediately but allowed for forward and onward progression. The creation of the Garden of Eden was by itself a stale state where there was no advancement but allowed for that possibility through the Fall. If Adam and Eve remained in that state they would not have advanced nor us. So, that definitely does not fit the description of exalted to me, a state in which there is continual and eternal advancement.
-
In language and communication there is intent and extent. The term I used was exalted spiritual state - not eternal exaltation. Are you saying that there is no such thing as an exalted spiritual state in the pre-existence?
Also I find it interesting at this point of our discussions that you are saying a full and complete integration of the physical is a necessary accomplishment for eternal exaltation?
As to the difficulty there seems to be with the use of the word challenge - I am emphasizing the need to act at the highest level of our capacity. That ought to be an eternal challenge. I believe that it is necessary for an individual to challenge themselves to the full extent of their capacity or to that which they are capable. It appears to me from your arguments and point of view that you personally are not willing to accept any challenges (or responsibilities??) presented or possible as a citizen in the Celestial Kingdom???
If I go onto LDS.org or even any search engine I cannot find any reference to the phrase "exalted spiritual state" unless it is talking about our condition after this life. So, if you want me to comment on such a thing you are going to have to explain what you mean by that phrase that is not commonely used to describe our pre-mortal existence.
According to President Kimball; "We mortals who now live upon this earth are in our second estate. Our very presence here in mortal bodies attests the fact that we “kept” our first estate. Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father. Our spirit bodies went through a long period of growth and development and training and, having passed the test successfully, were finally admitted to this earth and to mortality.
One definite purpose of our spirits coming to this earth and assuming the mortal state was to obtain a physical body. This body was to be subject to all the weaknesses, temptations, frailties and limitations of mortality, and was to face the challenge to overcome self. ...
You are sent to this world with a very serious purpose. You are sent to school, for that matter, to begin as a human infant and grow to unbelievable proportions in wisdom, judgment, knowledge, and power.10
One of the most serious human defects in all ages is procrastination, an unwillingness to accept personal responsibilities now. Men came to earth consciously to obtain their schooling, their training and development, and to perfect themselves, but many have allowed themselves to be diverted and have become … addicts to mental and spiritual indolence and to the pursuit of worldly pleasure.11
This mortal life is the time to prepare to meet God, which is our first responsibility. Having already obtained our bodies, which become the permanent tabernacle for our spirits through the eternities, now we are to train our bodies, our minds, and our spirits. Pre-eminent, then, is our using this life to perfect ourselves, to subjugate the flesh, subject the body to the spirit, to overcome all weaknesses, to govern self so that one may give leadership to others, and to perform all necessary ordinances."
Please let me emphasise his statement (not mine) that the pre-eminent purpose of this life is to perfect ourselves and "to overcome all weaknesses".
Again President Kimball's words; "
We understood also that after a period varying from seconds to decades of mortal life we would die, our bodies would go back to Mother Earth from which they had been created, and our spirits would go to the spirit world, where we would further train for our eternal destiny. After a period, there would be a resurrection or a reunion of the body and the spirit, which would render us immortal and make possible our further climb toward perfection and godhood. This resurrection has been made available to us through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator of this earth, who performed this incomparable service for us—a miracle we could not perform for ourselves. Thus the way was opened for our immortality and—if we prove worthy—eventual exaltation in God’s kingdom.7
We understood well before we came to this vale of tears that there would be sorrows, disappointments, hard work, blood, sweat, and tears; but in spite of all, we looked down and saw this earth being made ready for us, and we said in effect, “Yes, Father, in spite of all those things I can see great blessings that could come to me as one of thy sons or daughters; in taking a body I can see that I will eventually become immortal like thee, that I might overcome the effects of sin and be perfected, and so I am anxious to go to the earth at the first opportunity.” And so we came.8"
This is the purpose and the goal of this life and this is the end by which we pass through this means of the "vale of tears" to eventually "overcome the effects of sin and be perfected". Yes, that is the gospel of happiness and that is the reason we came here, to be free from sin by way of perfection, or exaltation.
-
Thank you to all of you who have replied to me. I would like to apologize if I came across as judgmental or prideful; I just wanted to ask questions that have been on my mind for a while. I don't wish eternal damnation on anyone, I've just been wondering about this topic. I have never heard anyone say in church that people in the Spirit World/Prison may not accept the Gospel and I have never heard that the veil is still in place for those in Spirit Prison. Is there somewhere in scripture where this is found?
I believe in the Atonement and I recognize that everything good in my life has come from being a member of the church and attempting to follow Christ. I do not have a perfect knowledge of things and the hope is all I feel I have at times. I had always heard it was more difficult to repent in Spirit Prison but that was the end of what I knew and if we did temple work for our ancestors, then they would go to the Celestial Kingdom.
Anyway, I ask these things because on a personal level there are people who have committed sin who are close to me and their choices have affected me and changed my life. I believe the Atonement applies to them and if/when they repent that is between them and God; I was just wondering what if they died without repenting how would it work? If I went and "did their temple work" would it all be OK?
So, as I understand it now, people who die without finding the Gospel, baptism, etc. are taught the Gospel in Spirit Prison and the veil we have here is still in effect there, they don't have any more knowledge or remembrances than what we have now? If they choose to accept the Gospel and the temple work is done for them then they will likely receive exaltation and if they reject it, then they will likely go to another kingdom? I've read the Doctrine and Covenants and I don't remember it being that detailed about the Spirit World, is there another source for this?
Thank you
Whenever I think of my friends and family that have taken different pathways and may be lost in the mist on the rocky paths, I try to remember that we all are okay. We all, here, passed the first estate test. We all, here, believe in Christ our Savior and testified as to His plan before coming here. We all, here, are good and faithful spirits. Yes, there were some that were more valiant in their faith but we were all faithful and righteous that ended up here. I try to remember this so that I treat them with the respect they deserve, they all will receive a Kingdom of Glory that is much greater than this existance.
If we could see their future state, even it is the Telestial Kingdom, we would probably call it something 'beyond all description', something that most here would call like being a God. The plan is a plan of Happiness. No matter what choices one makes in this world, in the end, we will all be happy as this is a plan of Happiness for all except those few sons of perdition. Of course we want them to maximize their happiness and be together as a family but remember that even Jesus loved those that were not going to make it into the highest Kingdom, 'forgive them for they know not what they do'.
I love Lehi's dream because it gives a certain perspective of this life that is different than traditional religions. It is a perspective of people who start out good and some hold onto the iron rod and remain in their goodness but others are lost or misguided or lured by things of the world. All of those things that misguide or lure away or create a mist will be gone some day. They will not be misguided, lured or lost forever because God's plan is one of Eternal Happiness and glory.
In other words, we have all earned a "free pass" as we all passed the first estate test. We will all earn that reward and we shouldn't want to take that away from anyone who has earned that or be upset in any way that they will get their reward. In reality it was not a "free pass" they had to prove their faithfulness like everyone else in the first estate test.
-
Does God need us?
I believe that God could not have reached such heights by Himself. That may sound blasphemous to most people of religion but the word God, to me, is one that suggests He belongs to a society of others.
We are told that the greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as our self. If these are the greatest commandments and we reach towards His greatness by following His instructions then I am sure that He reached that greatness by His love for others.
We are told a metaphoric description of the Kingdom of God as being like the sun, as one. Whereas the Telestial Kingdom is a separation from others. Even in that metaphoric sense, things that isolate and individualize are lesser compared to things that are made "one" (meaning joined with many others). An individual cannot become like God by herself.
Even understanding that the society of God is made up of families tells us that He could never be God by himself. This is the basic unit of the organization of God, it requires a spouse and children.
-
You did not answer my question - is living in the presents of G-d an exalted state?
To answer your question - in the Celestial Kingdom we will face the challenge of having a physical body. Do you not believe we will have a physical body in the Celestial Kingdom?
I thought I answered it with Elder Nelson's quote; "To be exalted—or to gain exaltation—refers to the highest state of happiness and glory in the celestial realm. These blessings can come to us after we leave this frail and mortal existence. The time to prepare for our eventual salvation and exaltation is now."
In my understanding of the gospel, "exalted" requires having a body. "Exalted" is living the life God lives, He lives a life with a physical body, a resurrected and perfect body that will never die or be corrupted.
There is no challenge in having a perfected body. Can you please provide some referrence to this belief of yours. I can't find any that suggests that a life in a Kingdom of God is a "challenge" in any sense of the word. Will there be work to do? Yes. Can we still progress? Yes. But is there a "challenge"? No. Please explain what challenge you perceive there to be in the Celestial Kingdom related to the body and please provide references to such so that I can learn more about that.
-
I was reading "The Living Christ" this morning and this line, actually from John 1:3 struck me in light of ebola, MERS, flu, cancer, etc. It's this: "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made."
Obviously there are many destructive things in the earth that are man-made. But what about the harmful elements, viruses, bacteria, etc that are natural. Were they created by Jesus to be part of our trial on earth? Or are they mutations of everything good that was created by Him?
Anyone want to venture a guess? I don't have a feeling either way.
Elder Mcconkie, June 1982; "Mortality and procreation and death all had their beginnings with the Fall. The tests and trials of a mortal probation began when our first parents were cast out of their Edenic home. “Because that Adam fell, we are,” Enoch said, “and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.” (Moses 6:48.) ...
And be it also remembered that the Fall was made possible because an infinite Creator, in the primeval day, made the earth and man and all forms of life in such a state that they could fall. This fall involved a change of status. All things were so created that they could fall or change, and thus was introduced the type and kind of existence needed to put into operation all of the terms and conditions of the Father’s eternal plan of salvation.
This first temporal creation of all things, as we shall see, was paradisiacal in nature. In the primeval and Edenic day all forms of life lived in a higher and different state than now prevails. The coming fall would take them downward and forward and onward. Death and procreation had yet to enter the world. That death would be Adam’s gift to man, and, then, the gift of God would be eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Viruses and "evolution" and change and decay and corruption, mutation etc, all came from the Fall but the Fall is not possible without first the Creation - a state where paradisiacal creations could fall. The creation came first making possible things like viruses (the ones that cause misery and woe at least) after the Fall.
Three "truths"?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Ok, I'll bite, what is the "indirect evidence" for the matter that can only be seen by pure eyes? (In other words not by scientists from a secular standpoint)