Seminarysnoozer
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Posts posted by Seminarysnoozer
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I was hopping that you would see a slightly different angle. In the Doctrine and Covenants https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/93.27-31?lang=eng#26 - hope this link works for you - if not try highlighting the link and pressing the control key and right click your mouse. If not just reference D&C 93:27-31 the old faction way.
Anyway, we learn that man is intelligent and is independent "Within the sphere in which he is placed" and this independence defines our agency (verses 30-31). However, if placed in a different sphere then it is by agency for that sphere that we become independent in that sphere. So as Isaiah says - it becomes a matter of line upon line upon line. As we progress to higher spheres we also progress to higher (more complete of whole) agency. It is not a once and done progression but an eternal progression. :)
Agreed but there are also these two huge gates we have to pass through, the first and second estates. Thus by the agency given in the premortal life we are placed in this sphere. The two estate gates are both launching pads for progression and after the second estate is over it is more like boarding a train that does not change tracks, no further forks in the road. The two gates is what, likely, produces the three parts of the host of heaven, those that fail the first estate test, those that pass the first estate and fail the second estate test and those that pass both estate tests. Those three parts of the host of heaven generate three distinct spheres.
Here we go back to that word glorified. Can man be glorified and remain man?
As we fell, did we also fall in terms of agency?
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Agency - really? What agency without any knowledge of evil or good?
Is this one of those rhetorical questions that I so love? (I guess I just used one myself)
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 6; "4. God gave us agency in the premortal life (see Moses 4:3; D&C 29:36)."
D&C 29; " 36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;"
Moses 4: " 3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;"
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Seminarysnoozer, on 28 Nov 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:
Nobody said YOU were bound anywhere.
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Seminarysnoozer, on 20 Nov 2014 - 5:21 PM, said:
If one likes variety, there is a place for that described in the scriptures as 'one star differing from another'. But as for the Celestial Kingdom it is described as one body as the Sun is one body.
…?
Seminarysnoozer, on 25 Nov 2014 - 7:32 PM, said:
So, probably the majority of people will fall in love with their varied selves and remain that way. That is not to say it is evil. The Telestial Kingdom is not evil, it is a Kingdom of glory and yet it is filled with variety as one star differs from another. It still won’t be as varied as here because they all will have to at least conform to the requirements needed to be in the presence of the Holy Ghost.
"That is not to say it is evil. The Telestial Kingdom is not evil"
.....lovely
It’s pretty obvious I appreciate individual variety and personality. To me that means I love both Spencer W. Kimball and Gordon B. Hinkley and I recognize and appreciate that they are different. Variation is not evil but is part of Heavenly Fathers’s design, that ought to be pretty obvious to most people who open their eyes, eat, smell, taste and interact with others. It is part of the very foundation of what brings us Joy and a major principle in the creation.
There are those that prefer to cut off their nose to spite their face and claim there is no need or joy in variation, but I doubt anyone takes joy in eating the same thing every meal and listening to same song and reading the same sentence over and over. Even those things are made up of a variety of flavors, notes and words. So I’m chiding myself for even wasting my time discussing this any further it’s so ridiculous on its face. I’m arguing with people who by their mere existence prove, without saying anything that variation is a joy and that it’s part of Heavenly Father’s plan..not just for this earth, but for the eternities.
Not once have I alluded to variation being how many different people we can commit adultery with or the variation of immodesty we can display or variation in the commandments or variation in the path back to Heavenly Father or “God made me this way so I must be perfect” and any other derogatory way you can come up with how evil variety in and of itself is. It’s too exhausting chasing down and dispelling these ridiculous straw men.
If you think the difference in personality between President Kimball and President Hinckley is because they are holding on to some evil in their disposition and character then I’m sorry to disappoint you. I simply don’t believe we are heading toward a destination where the only noticeable difference and identifiable feature between individuals living the highest order of the celestial kingdom is a barcode.
This life is not a hoax; it’s not here to teach us how to find joy only to cast those means away. All of creation is evidence that surrounds us, instructs us, and has meaning, giving us a strong indication of what awaits us in the hereafter.
The same spirits that inhabit this body now will inhabit in then, ..so what can I say. Those who appreciate and enjoy the beauty and variety of Heavenly Father’s creation will probably enjoy it in the next life and it would be an awfully sad thing to see those disciples cast out of his presence because of it.
D&C 76:98And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
I don’t know how you take that to mean that those in the lowest kingdoms get to experience a variety of glories, when they are NOT assigned to ALL but ONE of those. It only makes sense that those who make it to the highest kingdom will experience the greatest joy and as it so happens the greatest amount of variety. They have keys to all the kingdoms and then some!
Not once have I said Heavenly Father wants us all tatt’ed up with each eye a different color and our body pierced in a variety of ways…lol. We are his children and we (I) want to be like him. But I will never, no matter how hard I try, actually BE him. Nor will anyone else. We will remain ourselves….thank Heavens! There are those Christians that think he prays to himself, so perhaps your line of thinking would be closer to other Christian sects then LDS thought.
I leave you with this this quote by C.S. Lewis which I’m posting again. I believe its truth, but you can take it any way you want. You can say God wants to destroy “Self” and “Personality” but that is not how I interpret this at ALL. I believe we will have greater individual personality and identity the closer we become like our Heavenly Father. I reject this idea we all become "Self"...again for the 100th time, which is where this discussion for me started and why I said that Heavenly Father takes joy in variety and so do most of us, like our Parents in Heaven.
I also bid adieu to this thread as I have no desire to be cast again into the lowest kingdom with the rest of those who like eating something other than oatmeal every day and find joy in the company of others outside themselves.
Again, I applaud you for expressing the beauty of this world along with our Beloved Prophets. There is a time and place for everything. The beauty of pre-school is not so beautiful if a bunch of 40 year olds were the students. The variety and setting of this world was made for this test and this world. It composes the agency before us. Eventually though we have to choose, moving onto bigger stewardships or playing with crayons forever. God does as He has always done for a reason, it is what brings the most joy. I doubt we would arrive there and say, 'I've thought about this and I would prefer to try it my own way'. There is only one way not a variety of ways, the path is single, narrow and straight, not many and winding.
You are comparing the joy in the variety of food and the variety of what we do to the need to have varied characters. I don't see those as the same thing at all. We were talking about talents, characteristics, personalities etc. I am not sure why you link that with the variety of trees, food, colors, whatever. That doesn't make sense to me.
If so and so enjoys music, they don't have to be only one of 70% of people that enjoy music (or whatever the number is) to make it enjoyable. Why would it matter to you if everyone around you enjoyed what you enjoy to the same level that you do? Would you be disappointed if everyone understood the theory of relativity as well as Albert Einstein? Would that ruin the variety you enjoy? Would it disappoint you if everyone could compose music as well as Beethoven? Or play soccer as well as Pele? If so, then by definition, you delight in the deficiencies. For me, I would love to be surrounded by people that can understand the theory of relativity as well as Einstein or play the piano as well as Beethoven or play soccer as well as Pele. To me that is beautiful in that there is no deficiency, not that there is no variety. I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle.
I don't understand the desire to have some people not like something as much as another for the sake of "variety" especially in a place where there is all time to reach the fullness. 100% of something is 100% (talking about talents, characteristics and personalities that one would describe as good). For variety to exist there has to be something less than 100%.
Lets say God and Christ and anyone else in the Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom are given a pop quiz on any topic. Would you venture to say there would be a variety of scores on the test? I don't think so, I think they would all score 100%. If you find that boring or unlivable then I am not sure what you are striving for. Maybe it is because I don't understand the desire to strive for something less than 100%, less than being like our Heavenly Father in every way. I think that is what is meant by having an eye single to His glory and not some lesser glory.
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Have you stopped to consider the child that dies within one hour of life being forced into the Celestial Kingdom - that it might be possible that among all that so die that it is possible that even one really would be much more happy somewhere else if given the agency or choice? What is the purpose of this life?
You do not need to answer - we have sort of rowed our boats down this stream - Just wondering if you have taken the possibility of agency and choice into account?
Of course I have, there was agency given for the first estate test and they all chose that they would want to live with our Heavenly Father as we all did.
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Which is true - we need the atonement - but he did not say that.
Yes, those things are included in the having faith in Christ and acting on it, if you want to play with semantics. I thought we were having a conversation about what is required from us. But now I am not sure what we are talking about.
A child that dies within one hour of life and makes it into the Celestial Kingdom does not NEED light an enlightenment in this life to pass the second estate test (in this life) The child does need the atonement and accepting it which we all did by passing the first estate test. Now, we are talking about the second estate test ... I think.
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I don't think I'm bound for a lesser kingdom because I value individuality and personality or love the variety of his creation. But if I am, then Heavenly Father sure pulled a fast one on me with this crazy smoke and mirrors experience and at least I know his personality contains a wry sense of humor.
Nobody said YOU were bound anywhere. We also weren't really talking about 'this' creation as much as what happens after this life. We can all love and value this life for what it is.
I think many, even in our religion, don't believe we fell very far. However far we fell is how great the saving grace of the atonement is. They are inversley proportional. We cannot serve God and Mammon and the same time. So, either we serve the fallen state or the risen state. Either we believe 'I am this way cause that is how God created me' or we believe 'I am this way cause this is the temporary stewardship God gave me for this second estate test that we will be rested from when the test is over so we can go onto a glorious state'. Spencer Kimball; "Those who have lived after the manner of the world shall go to a telestial kingdom whose glory is as the stars."
Neal A. Maxwell; "Each post-resurrection kingdom is a kingdom of glory that is far better than this world we now know. Even "the glory of the telestial" will surpass "all understanding" (D&C 76:89)"
Bruce McConkie; "That glory granted the inhabitants of the lowest kingdom of glory is called telestial glory. In the infinite mercy of a beneficent Father it surpasses all mortal understanding, and yet it is in no way comparable to the glory of the terrestrial and celestial worlds. Telestial glory is typified by the stars of the firmament, and "as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world" (D. & C. 76:81-112; 1 Cor. 15:41), meaning that all who inherit the telestial kingdom will not receive the same glory." ... as opposed to the other kingdoms where people do receive of the same glory pertaining to that kingdom. ...varied vs same.
James Talmage; "We learn further that the inhabitants of this kingdom are to be graded among themselves, comprising as they do the unenlightened among the varied opposing sects and divisions of men, and sinners of many types, whose offenses are not those of utter perdition: "For as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another -- some of Christ, and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant." (Articles of Faith, pp.407 - 408)" ... meaning they accept all the variety of worship out there, it doesn't matter so long as one has faith, a little of this a little of that, variety is good, cover all the bases type attitude.
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Hmmm...probably this.
In inquiring about whether God has this or that personality trait, I suspect we are completely out of our depth.
Do you think it is possible, even though we are limited in our ability to understand, that God has a whimsical nature, that He may do thinks "just to be different"? I think we are told that God does what has always been done and that He doesn't vary His course.
Mormon 9; "9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?
10 And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles."
D&C 3; " 2 For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round."
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I agree that we will take on his likeness and have his image in our countenance...were his children after all.
I think you have made it clear that we truly need to let go of ourselves and become like our Heavenly Father. I don't dispute that and along with you contend its the very reason and purpose we find ourselves in this state in the first place trudging the straight and narrow path.
My contention is that in my study and in my attempts to draw closer to Heavenly Father I have found that becoming like him means becoming our true selves. We shed our weaknesses and make them strengths, we become new. But in so doing we become wholly ourselves and become even more unique and distinguished as we are blessed with this attributes.
Becoming like him also means we take joy in variation. It's not just the inhabitants of his creation that love variety, it's the Creator himself. Monotony is not a virtue, and there is nothing in nature or creation or beauty that suggests it is.
Consider these quotes -
"Each of us is unique. Each child is unique. Just as each of us starts at a different point in the race of life, and just as each of us has different strengths and weaknesses and talents, so each child is blessed with his own special set of characteristics." ~ Howard W Hunterblessed....with special characteristics"Recently I stood on the north shore of a beautiful Pacific island gazing out to sea at daybreak. I was fascinated by the regularity with which the gigantic waves consistently moved forward to break on the shoreline. It reminded me of the constancy of the plan of the Lord, with its fixed, eternal law, and the security of enduring justice and the tenderness of mercy when earned by obedience. I noticed that each wave would crest at a different point on the horizon to find its unique path to shore. Some cascaded over rocks, leaving rivulets of foaming, white water. Others burst on the shore in individual patterns. They slid up the moistened sand with playful frothy edges, then bubbled and swirled as they receded.""I thought of the unending variety of possibilities the Lord has provided for us. We have so much freedom, so many opportunities to develop our unique personalities and talents, our individual memories, our personalized contributions. Since there would be no further opportunity to observe the majestic sea, I tried to imagine the glorious panorama the brilliant sun would later create. As I watched this magnificent scene in reverence, a window formed in the clouds; the glistening rays of the rising sun broke through the overcast sky, transforming everything with its luminescence, its color, its life. It was as if the Lord wanted to share an additional blessing, a symbol of the light of His teachings that gives brilliance and hope to everyone it touches. Tears of gratitude formed for this wondrous world in which we live, for the extraordinary beauty our Heavenly Father so freely shares with all who are willing to see. Truly, life is beautiful." ~ Richard G ScottWe don't develop our unique personalities to cast them aside. They are a blessing, they are good. Not evil.Perfection does not mean Monotony. In most things it's the little variations that makes something perfect and unique and beautiful.We develop our unique talents while in this life so that we may be worthy of greater stewardship. These "unique talents" are on loan, as the parable of the ten talents suggests. They are not self but stewardships. We do not own them. I think that is the first mistake in considering unique traits, it is an inherintly selfish view. I have this while the other person does not. It is beautiful in the sense that is provides us with the opportunity to learn about charity. When there are deficiencies then we need to fill in those deficiencies with love and carring. The beauty in the deficiency is that we can provide for others what they cant do for their self, it is a chance for service. Those are some of the things we need to learn here to appreciate the value of the gifts we receive in the next life.
LDS.org explains that the temple is a place to make covenants with God and that the Celestial room represents what it might be like to be in Gods presence. While there, the one place in this world that most represents being in Gods presence in the Celestial Kingdom, as much as really possible in this world, go ahead and think of all the self expression and uniqueness that is shown there. Think of the variety in the people that exists there and how they express their variety (we are talking about people not the surroundings). How many various things that one would describe as the variety of the world that is found to be beautiful is expressed there.
Contrast that with the worlds drive for uniqueness. Body modification, tattos and piercings are an example of that. 25% of kids (Yes I am old so I can call them kids) under the age of 30 undergo some kind of body modification. According to most psychologist, among the many reasons they do this is for self-expression, to express their unique circumstances and views on life, their unique characteristics. Stephen Franzoi, a social psychologist who studies physical attractiveness and body esteem at Marquette University, agrees that young adults now view bod-mod as a mainstream form of self-expression. But savor the paradox: "Interestingly enough," he points out, "the desire to express your own unique qualities, is, in one sense, an act of conformity. It's a social norm that an increasing number of young adults are conforming to." In other words, the "norm" of the world is to try to be uniquely different. That is what the carnal world strives for.
The other thing to realize is that we are dual beings, both body and spirit. The body is of "nature" it is natural or natural man or carnal. We are both while in this world, both natural man and spirit. As Elder Bednar pointed out in conference it is what we choose one over the other that is the test.
In the Hymn, O God The Eternal Father, Christ is described as "
With no apparent beauty,That man should him desire" taking that from Isaiah. Christ, in other words, did not stand out in the crowd. He did not try to stand out in the crowd. He gave no thought as to the clothes he was going to where etc. He did not try to attract people by his "apparent beauty" but by his love, his inner beauty.
I agree that this life is beautiful in its creation and set up. I dont think I can say it any better than The Folk Prophet did, that we start out with unique set of talents and even before this life we did as well. There is no arguement to that. But that may be different than where we are heading. The likely result is that there may not be very many people that could call their self "one" with God in the end. So, probably the majority of people will fall in love with their varied selves and remain that way. That is not to say it is evil. The Telestial Kingdom is not evil, it is a Kingdom of glory and yet it is filled with variety as one star differs from another. It still wont be as varied as here because they all will have to at least conform to the requirements needed to be in the presence of the Holy Ghost.
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You are saying if you lose yourself you will eventually become "Self" and we will all be the same because we will be perfect. I'm saying that if you lose yourself you will find yourself and you will retain more identity and individuality then if you chose the other paths. This is what C.S. Lewis contends, this is what I believe Maxwell is saying.There is a marked difference in the Joy that a person feels when a child is obedient then when you pull a string and a puppets arm moves. The Joy you feel partly because you love the child but a big part of it is also the awareness that they are individual, that they are acting in and of themselves and not being acted upon. I believe this is the Joy our Heavenly Father feels and the Joy we wanted to experience as well.Satan's end goal was not the same but the opposite -I also feel those deep feelings of "self"- preservation which cause us to balk when our identity is faced with oblivion is naturally good instinct that Satan uses against us like many other naturally good instincts such as procreation .Fear of joining the "Borg" (if such a thing existed) is a good fear is it not? We ought to be careful to keep in context it was rugged individualism that provided a nation ringing with freedom where the gospel restoration could safely take hold. For many it's that deep innate desire for identity and individuality that causes many to finally look upwards to heaven to find happiness and truth after their futile inward search.Once we discover who we are we are then asked, like our Savior, to off ourselves up as a sacrifice. And in doing so will find ourselves greater in the end.We are never asked to give up our unique identity or individuality in this life, and it won't be required in the next. We are to give all of our self to Heavenly Father, and my contention is that we don't have anything to give if we don't retain a "self" and an individual identity to forever give. That would be a false sacrifice.
When we ask ourselves who we really are and then we answer "I am a child of God" we have already come to the conclusion that who we are is dependent on someone else.
One of the biggest problems I see is when people use the terms individual and unique interchangeably. It is possible to be an individual and yet be exactly like another. However, one cannot be unique and be exactly like another. I am not, in any way, disagreeing with the idea of being an individual, but I am disagreeing with the passionate drive to remain a unique individual. There is a difference. A person that seeks to be a "unique" individual wants to stand out of the crowd for very selfish reasons. When there is a pain from not being unique enough, like somene wheres the same dress to church that you are wearing, for example, than that is a desire that pulls away from Celestial lack of uniqueness. One can be an individual without having to be unique. Is there any trait that God has that Christ does not also possess or will soon possess? I didn't ask if they had different roles, like father and son etc. just traits. As Christ compares to God, we hope that some day we would be able to say the same thing about ourselves in comparing to God. That we might have His image in our countenance and that we might be one with them, hardly distinguishable and yet individuals that would act and speak and do and have the same ability and talents exactly like anyone else in that realm, 100% God-like. Variabiliy would have to entail something less than 100%.
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In theory I can sort of agree...except if one exercises faith and receives nothing in return, how long is that faith really going to last? Certainly we don't need the full reward. But to spend a lifetime of faith for nothing? No light and knowledge? No spiritual witness? No revelation? No guidance? No peace?
I think not. To some level, oh yes, we do too need the reward. We need the peace. We need the revelation. We need the guidance. We NEED the Holy Spirit -- whose very purpose is to bring us light and knowledge. You seem to be contending that the Gift of the Holy Ghost is unnecessary.
We were talking about what was needed to receive the reward and to pass the test. Now you are extending that to the reward itself. Do we need the reward? Yes. Okay. Then again, those that die before the age of 8 do not receive the laying on of hands while in this life for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Since you pulled my phrase out of context you applied it to a lot more than what I was talking about. We were talking about the need to know something as empirical evidence, to know it at that level. My response to that was that we do not need to know it at that level in this life, we can know it via faith and the confirmation via the Holy Ghost etc. Now if you want to argue that works and Holy Ghoost are empirical evidence so be it. I am sure Traveler will already make that arguement.
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According to the Apostle Paul:
Obviously faith is not all we need. We needs the works of faith because faith alone is not enough and never has been.
Yes, that is why I said 'and acting on it' which is works. But even then he said we need more than that.
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Semsnooze:
What, exactly, do you think light and knowledge are? Is not every bit of information we gain from the heavens given as light an knowledge? How can you think this does not apply to all?
It's like you're thinking light and knowledge only means grandiose ideas, feelings and thoughts. As you well know, most of the communication from heaven we receive is not grandiose. But it is all light and knowledge.
And it is, indeed, across the board for everyone! Including small children. Even a newborn baby. They, as we all are, are born with the light of Christ. Every moment of existence in this life it to acquire light and knowledge. It is why we are here.
Surely you don't believe that because a child is unaccountable that they are also incapable of receiving light and knowledge.
As to all your mapping of trajectory and patience comments and quotes...not relevant whatsoever. Logical fallacy alert.
You used the words, 'that is not all we need' in reference to me saying all we need is faith (in Christ, implied) and acting on that faith. In other words, I interpret that to mean that there is more that we need to bring to the table. You said receiving light and knowledge is a consequence to faith and acting on faith. If that is the case then it is not "needed" to pass this test in this life, because those rewards could certainly be received after this life. The receiving of the reward is not needed. That is all I was saying. I was not trying to uncouple the reaping of what is sown but that state that which was told to Joseph Smith in essense that if one struggles all their life and simply endures in faith till the end it is not lost as the result does not have to be realized in this life, it will be rewarded in the end.
Psalm 30; "‘Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning" - the light could come in the morning - after this life, therefore not needed to pass the test but as a result of passing the test.
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Seminary I agree with much of what your saying regarding aligning our will with Gods and even being able to think and act as he would and becoming "One".
Unfortunately I was indoctrinated at a young age in a philosophy that taught me "I am a child of God", and that I'm special and unique and loved unconditionally for who I am. I want to be obedient and become like Heavenly Father because he loves and experiences joy on a far greater level then I can now imagine. That does not mean I lose my unique individuality or sense of "self".
It's clear that much of Heavenly Father's plan relies on our individuality. Satan seemed to know that if he pulled out that foundation truth the rest of the plan crumbles. You can't have agency without individuality/self and you can't have true individuality without agency..
Why do we have a natural yearning to connect with our ancestors if they are all just one "self". I don't care to see them because they are me or I them.
As far as Heavenly Father and his traits, the main difference we may have is that I believe perfection is eternal which means it's endlessly deep as it is broad. So I believe there are endless perfect ways to laugh, smile, dance, sing, cry and pretty much do everything. ....I could go on. I think Heavenly Father has a personality.
This was an interesting thread as well.
http://lds.net/forums/topic/24594-can-variety-exist-with-perfection/page-2
We are talking about where we are going, not where we currently are. I don't disagree with each of us being unique and working through our individual agency. Satan wanted to jump through the end without having the process to get there. He didn't understand that it takes the indiviudal through there agency to reach that state of being, that it can't simply be bestowed on a person. He thought he could get it without the effort.
Tha doesn't meant the goal is evil. His method was flawed. He wants what we are still in line to receive. Now that he is cast out and miserable he wants to make as many of us miserable as he can and tries to convince us that it isn't worth the effort. He wants us to remain in our carnal state. He wants to convince us that this mortal state is where its at and not to see beyond it.
The plan involves steps to reach the end of the arrow head, so-to-speak. Yes, we are all uniquely different and our Heavenly Father loves who we are currently but also wants us to have a fullness of joy some day and not remain in a state that is less than our potential. He wants us to have it by working through our agency and choosing it. Unlike the nasty borg reference, it is by choice not by force. Why would anyone choose to submit their will to God by choice, willingly and with all their heart, might, mind and strength loosing their self in the process? Knowing why is the basis of many strong testimonies of the plan of happiness.
The corruption of the body after the Fall is what sets up this process in which DNA mutates and changes, different from the original creation. That in and of itself is not evil because that is part of the process of living in the world. But we do not have to be of the world. We say to Our Heavenly Father, we do not want to remain in this awful state, we would rather take on the flesh of Christ, His perfect flesh and so we abide by the covenants, we take of His flesh and blood weekly with that symbolic gesture, "that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son", and Christ's act of losing the carnality (symbolically) "that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them". We too will "shed" this body and all the fallen characteristics that come with it in following Christ.
Elder Bednar explained in conference; "As sons and daughters of God, we have inherited divine capacities from Him. But we presently live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Consequently, the Fall of Adam and its spiritual and temporal consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet we are dual beings, for our spirit that is the eternal part of us is tabernacled in a physical body that is subject to the Fall. As Jesus emphasized to the Apostle Peter, “The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41).
The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following question: Will I respond to the inclinations of the natural man, or will I yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man and become a saint through the Atonement of Christ the Lord (see Mosiah 3:19)? That is the test. Every appetite, desire, propensity, and impulse of the natural man may be overcome by and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ."
Definition of propensity; "an inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way" ... To act in a 'particular way' as opposed to someone else' particular way.
This provides an idea of where we are heading not where we are currently.
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I know it's not entirely what you mean...but this isn't exactly accurate. We do, indeed, need to have more than that. Acting in faith is good enough, but the reason it is good enough is because doing so will bring greater light and knowledge to us. If we are acting in faith we are constantly being given more and more, and this is imperative. If we are not moving forward, we are moving backwards. The acquisition of light and knowledge is key. It is by this means that we know our Heavenly Father, and it is through knowing Him that we become like Him. Stagnant faith will not yield this end. (Though, from a certain point of view, the term stagnant faith is an oxymoron, so....)
But I think you are saying so as part of the bigger picture which I don't disagree with. As far as this life though, it is sufficient enough to make it a desire of the heart even if it isn't made a reality. A testimony of this is in describing those that die before the age of 8 and what happens to them. Certainly a child that dies after one hour of life in this world did not have much time to acquire "light and knowledge" and that being "key" as you are describing.
This life is simply the time to prepare to meet God which sometimes takes the form of enduring till the end or having patience and faith. That may be the test for some, to simply not "fall asleep on the watch". Or to hold Zion where you are.
I think your description of acquiring light and knowledge is not across the board for everyone. Maybe it is your calling in life, maybe it is mine (and that is why I spend so much time on this forum as well as studying scriptures attending church etc.) The main goal is to first have faith, then repent and then life by the following ordinances of the gospel. We will not be judged on some universal scale that measures the quantity of light and knowledge obtained in this life but we will be judged by some unique to our circumstance scale that only God can use in His understanding of all the variables we face in this world including how thick the veil of forgetfulness is in our way. Where much is given much is required.
So, the trajectory is a more important "key" than is the maping of what point along the trajectory one finds oneself. One can reach the Celestial Kingdom by being in the right trajectory while still flying through the opening of the cannon the same as one who is miles away from the cannon, so-to-speak, so long as they are on the same trajectory.
President Uchtdorf; "Patience means accepting that which cannot be changed and facing it with courage, grace, and faith. It means being “willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon [us], even as a child doth submit to his father.”8 Ultimately, patience means being “firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord”9 every hour of every day, even when it is hard to do so. In the words of John the Revelator, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and … faith [in] Jesus.”10
Patience is a process of perfection. The Savior Himself said that in your patience you possess your souls.11 Or, to use another translation of the Greek text, in your patience you win mastery of your souls.12 Patience means to abide in faith, knowing that sometimes it is in the waiting rather than in the receiving that we grow the most. This was true in the time of the Savior. It is true in our time as well, for we are commanded in these latter days to “continue in patience until ye are perfected.”
D&C 67; " 13 Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected."
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We know that variety is not a result of the Fall because all things were created spiritually before they were created physically and were placed on this earth far before Adam and Eve fell. From my understanding life on this earth will die but life being first made spiritually is Eternal and won't be destroyed but perfected, which I assume means something other then a Douglas Fir becoming a Palm Tree or vice versa.
From the C.S. Lewis quote and again from the article on the Eternal Principles of Goverment -
"All these principles of liberty flow together toward two preeminent principles—a harmony of the one and the many, with man’s god-like individuality on the one hand and his natural, uncoerced communality on the other. These two principles provide at once the origin and the apex of all other governmental principles."
The reason this is important is that it points to the way we will be governed in the Eternities. There is no harmony if we are all singing the same exact note. Our individuality is so important that it was Satan's plan to wipe it out. I don't even think it's possible to have agency without individuality and "self". And as far as I know our agency will never be taken away.
Following the straight and narrow path will only help us find our identity not lose it. It's a path toward more individuality, more freedom and away from sin which threatens both.
I think anyone that discovers who discovers beauty in this life, whether in nature or art, you quickly learn that perfection does not mean one song or one painting or one face. I can think of many perfect piano pieces that were created and played by completely different composers. Yet they are not the same, not even close.
Do you consider our individual personalities an imperfection?
again..how different are the saints....and how different are the Prophets of Old and our Modern Prophets.
What comes to mind when I say Benson, Kimball, Hinckley, Monson? I too love how different they are from each other.
Thank you, I find that very comforting.
One body that contains three heavens or degrees.
You used D&C 130 to describe the "borg like" conditions in the next life but left out the very premise of that society which is this -
2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.
The sociality that exists now consists of individuals who by their own agency chose to associate with one another.
I think there is some truth to the eastern faiths idea of joining with God. As you quote in D&C we will be able to instantly know the will of God. I think this earth will be celestialized but I don't believe we all become one "Self".
We find joy in variety, in personality, in individuality and certainly community. I don't think Heavenly Father is different.
I like your last sentence, "I don't think Heavenly Father is different."
One should ponder the instruction of Christ in this matter, Luke 9"23 ¶And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."
Or even Neal Maxwell, "The end rule is “according to [our] desires … shall it be done unto [us]” (D&C 11:17), “for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:9; see also Alma 41:5; D&C 6:20, 27). One’s individual will thus remains uniquely his. God will not override it nor overwhelm it. Hence we’d better want the consequences of what we want!
Another cosmic fact: only by aligning our wills with God’s is full happiness to be found. Anything less results in a lesser portion (see Alma 12:10–11). The Lord will work with us even if, at first, we “can no more than desire” but are willing to “give place for a portion of [His] words” (Alma 32:27). A small foothold is all He needs! But we must desire and provide it.
So many of us are kept from eventual consecration because we mistakenly think that, somehow, by letting our will be swallowed up in the will of God, we lose our individuality (see Mosiah 15:7). What we are really worried about, of course, is not giving up self, but selfish things—like our roles, our time, our preeminence, and our possessions. No wonder we are instructed by the Savior to lose ourselves (see Luke 9:24). He is only asking us to lose the old self in order to find the new self. It is not a question of one’s losing identity but of finding his true identity! Ironically, so many people already lose themselves anyway in their consuming hobbies and preoccupations but with far, far lesser things.
Ever observant, in both the first and second estates, consecrated Jesus always knew in which direction He faced: He consistently emulated His Father: “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” (John 5:19), for “I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning” (3 Ne. 11:11)."
What I am saying is that if one aligns their will with God and as Neal Maxwell says this is only really a desire in this life as we don't really have full capacity to do it all in this life then we will find our true identity which is to have the capacity of "ALL".
If Bob ends up with "ALL" and Sarah ends up with "ALL", they each have 100% as individuals then how do they differ?
To desire (again even if it is not achievable in this life because yes we are all in a fallen state of variable differences with different talents and abilities) to have ALL that God has will open the mind to the "FULLNESS" of God but to those that harden their heart to that idea (they don't like that idea) they will receive a lesser portion because that is what they want. Alma 12; "10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell."
Tell me just one thing that you think you have or someone has in this life that you would call a uniquely identifying good trait that God does not also have - can you name one person who has some good trait above what God has?
If you cannot and if you truley believe that we can have ALL that God has then those that eventually receive ALL that God has (no matter how long that might take) will have no uniquely identifying features different than God. Yes, they will still be individuals with their own wills but it will be matched with the will of God and the mind of God without anything lacking in any way such that we can call it ALL that God has.
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Just because someone could have the same set of desires passions talents etc doesn't mean they will all be 'singing the same note'. If all that Christ did was the will of the Father then why didn't God just do it Himself? Even though Christ' will is matched with the Father and even though His capacity is now one with the Father doesn't mean they are doing the exact same thing at the same time like synchronized swimmers. But because they have the same passions and desires and traits then whenever Christ does something He can share it with God, He can truly do it FOR Him.
We have all seen in various circumstances in this life that when one portrays a certain accumen for an activity that another does not equally share then it is not so much appreciated as it is with those that share the same accumen. For example, I played a lot of soccer, in High Scool and in College and so when I watch a professional soccer game I can see the intricacies of the sport, the one-two passes, the ability to play to space and the flow of the game along with all my fellow soccer players who have equal experience in the game. Whereas, my husband who has never played the sport but played American football doesn't have the same experience when he watches a soccer game. So, when I watch American football with him I have a different experience than he does, I don't get as much out of it as he does.
However, if we both had the same capacity (at least in understanding and experience - like me truly understanding what it was like for him to play American football, for example) for both sports then we could equally enjoy both sports to their fullest.
Apply that idea to all areas of enjoyment and now our capacity for joy is truly FULL.
Again, go ahead and try to name one uniquely identifying feature of any individual that is good that God does not also have the capacity for in understanding it as that person.
If one gives 10% of all the talents to 10 different people and gives 100% of the talents to two people then the two one would call indistinguishable (as far as talents go) whereas the 10 one would call a variety.
Don't fall in love with the "10% world" when you can have 100%, that is Alma's message, Christ' message also in losing self to follow God's will as well as Neal A. Maxwell and many others.
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You took that very well. :) Recently I was in a religious debate with an individual that was trying to argue that all religions and philosophies have some truth but no one particular paradigm is the right G-d supported undisputed true religion. So I asked to be sure - "So you do not believe any particular notion has any advantage over all the others?" Absolutely they responded.
Then, I said, your particular notion - by its own projection must be wrong. Because if it is right there is no advantage in believing it or thinking such a thing and if it is wrong then you just wasted your all your effort to discover anything and every conclusion you reach because of such thinking must be wrong or at best misleading.
There must be something that can be relied upon. There must be truth that is correct by which the value of all other things can be measured. If that truth is not empirical it cannot be used or even considered for use. We must believe that we can identify truth by some infallible means - otherwise there is no purpose in trying to consider truth.
Some try to argue that G-d is the infallible means of knowing truth. But we are not G-d and thus we are left with trying to discover the infallible means to know G-d and his truth granted to us. There must be some empirical means. Jesus taught that if we empirically apply the principles - we will know of such principles if they are granted to us by G-d. Alma suggested the empirical means of "planting a seed". Though he uses suggestive symbolism - the method is still empirical.
In essence we must believe there is infallible truth and that we are capable of discovering it and recognizing it. If we cannot believe that - there is no purpose in seeking truth. But there is a most interesting caveat - and I think you understand that caveat better than most - that is that the infallible truth is always masked by pride and the refusal to consider that something may be better than what you currently understand. For that reason alone your are my best and most trusted friend on the forum. You make me see better things. :)
Thank you for your kind remarks. I, too, find you to be a great friend on this forum because you are willing to go the rounds with me without it being any kind of personal attack but rather attacking the topic itself. Thanks.
That being said ... I am not so sure that the test we face is to find infallible truth. How do you couch that with faith? I think above the test of infallible truth is the test of faith. Faith is the first test and principle of the gospel. If all we have is faith and act on it then that is good enough. We do not have to have more than that, like some empirical means that is reproducable by all because we know that some are simply not capable of understanding these things. Christ himself said that, and that is the reason He spoke in parables because those that have the ability to understand will gain more but those that don't will be even more confused by it. If that is the nature of Christ gospel then I don't see how it can also be one that we would say there has to exist empirical evidence, reproducable by all or infallible truth that nobody can argue against while in this life. At least, I think, that is true for this life. Of course, when the veil is removed the truth would fall into that category as infallible truth as we know that every knee shall bend, everyone will then have a complete understanding.
I think you have to also ask if one believes there is infallible truth then how does that fit with the purpose of the veil. We know there is a veil and a purpose for the veil. How important is the purpose of the veil? Not so important that having infallible truth is more important than that in this life?
Knowing the purpose of this life changes our view on the need to understanding things fully. We have faith, we have testimonies, we have the spirit, we have the still small voice, we have spiritual discernment, all of which are ways around empirical evidence. If we had empirical evidence then we wouldnt need those things or at least those things should be sought after in a lesser way if empirical evidence is available. For me, I will keep spiritual discernment and faith higher on the list of useful tools while in this life. Empirical evidence and infallible truths were the tools of the first estate test and we all proved to be able to use those tools wisely. We don't need to be tested with empirical evidence again.
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This is what I think of when I hear "many words"; Joseph Smith History; "
5 Some time in the second year after our removal to Manchester, there was in the place where we lived an unusual excitement on the subject of religion. It commenced with the Methodists, but soon became general among all the sects in that region of country. Indeed, the whole district of country seemed affected by it, and great multitudes united themselves to the different religious parties, which created no small stir and division amongst the people, some crying, “Lo, here!” and others, “Lo, there!” Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.
6 For, notwithstanding the great love which the converts to these different faiths expressed at the time of their conversion, and the great zeal manifested by the respective clergy, who were active in getting up and promoting this extraordinary scene of religious feeling, in order to have everybody converted, as they were pleased to call it, let them join what sect they pleased; yet when the converts began to file off, some to one party and some to another, it was seen that the seemingly good feelings of both the priests and the converts were more pretended than real; for a scene of great confusion and bad feeling ensued—priest contending against priest, and convert against convert; so that all their good feelings one for another, if they ever had any, were entirely lost in a strife of words and a contest about opinions."
Then it was later described to him this way; "19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
In other words (not many), we don't want to dance around the truth or pretend to have the truth, the truth is direct and in preparation for the second coming. The warning is related to the whole reason for the restoration of the gospel, to prepare for the second coming. Introduction of the Book of Mormon, "Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is His revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the Second Coming of the Messiah."
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You are only saying this because your borrowed brain has it all wrong. :)
I think you're right. ... if I was a computer I would be frozen in an endless loop.
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Then your understanding is askew.
Wickedness never was happiness.
Could any form of wickedness be associated with a Kingdom of glory? Can one have glory and wickedness at the same time? Can we be wicked and qualify for the eternal presence of even the Holy Ghost? I think we are taught that wickedness causes us to not be in the presence of the Holy Ghost. So, the only people that are currently here that may not end up in some state of happiness are those that become the sons of perdition. But liars and murders and all those that make up the Telestial Kingdom will be in a state of happiness.
I think every knee will bend, every one will have been paid in full by the time they reach their respective Kingdom of Glory, whether it is through the atonement vs time in spirit prison until they are fully repentant and suffered, I don't think it would be possible to receive a glorified body of any kind and still carry the burden of wickedness. ... keep in mind we all here are righteous, we all kept the first estate, we all believe in Christ and God's plan, just some of us have forgotten about our beliefs but they will recall soon enough.
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I don't have a specific scripture and perhaps my logic is flawed, but even before I was instructed in our temples, I knew that Heavenly Father loves not one kind of tree, bush, bird, or rock but lots of different kinds. When I saw that the atonement was extended to all mankind, I looked at mankind and saw that mankind is made up of many different races and cultures and that each person is unique and special. I've even heard that we don't even share the same talents and that each of us also has different challenges in this life.
I think Heavenly Father must like all different kinds of things. I don't think he wants us all being exactly the same. I know I like different things and if there was only one kind of tree or bird or fish I would be bored out of my mind. It's the same with People.
I always liked this quote by C.S. Lewis
There is something in me that doesn't like the idea of being anybody else. I think our individuality is a good thing and something in me tells me our personality goes way way back even before this life.
I don't think I'm the only one who enjoys how diverse our the leaders of our Church. All these righteous men and women who are vastly different in looks and personality. They look similar (no beards, same hairstyle, corporate business attire) but when they speak their differences in humor, temperament, experience, education all come out.
I don't think it's part of Heavenly Father's plan to give up the things that make us individuals and special. It goes against everything I believe.
For this life variety is needed, it is what sets up the tests we face and the struggles we face. It is as a result of the Fall of Adam and Eve that we have variability as part of the mortal condition.
God wants us to be one with Him. The purpose of the atonement is to give man in all his variety a chance to become one with God. It is a way out of the variety. Gods path has always been narrow and straight. There is not a variety of ways to reach God. It may start out varied but the end path is like the tip of arrow head, it becomes more and more of one type.
God wants us to have all that He has. If we are so fortunate to have all in the next life then one persons "all" would not look any different than another person's "all". Let me ask you, is there any talent or ability that God does not possess? Is there any unique trait that is good that God does not also possess. Let's say someone has a love for music and a talent for playing the piano. Would you say that the person could possibly love music or have a talent for playing the piano more than God?
Variability in talents is as a result of deficiencies. The reason we say one person has a talent for something is because others do not have it. It would be strange, for example, if I said I have a talent for breathing. It isn't a "talent" if everybody does it. In a place where there is no deficiencies, where everyone has all then nobody would even say "I have a talent for music" or "I have a talent for baking cookies" or whatever it is. Nobody there would say, "I am a cook" or "I am a soccer player" anymore than someone here would say "I am a shirt wearer". We could still have different assignments and therefore take on different roles but there would be no reason to box someone into an assignment over another because that is "what they do". A person that has all talents and is all knowing is called God, that is the only label for such a being and there is only one (type of) God.
If one likes variety, there is a place for that described in the scriptures as 'one star differing from another'. But as for the Celestial Kingdom it is described as one body as the Sun is one body.
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I will try to explain from some insight to my past. I was raised in a good home by goodly parents. Like Nephi my father accumulated a great deal of wealth - But unlike Lehi it was not in gold and silver but in real estate. The need for money was not a big priority for me. When I returned from my mission I started a business, drove a nifty sports car (57 Triumph - paid for), lived at home and went to BYU (which was 2 blocks from my child hood home). In many ways I was poor and had difficulties adjusting to life after loosing several friends in Vietnam that I served with in the military prior to my mission. In short I was angry.
A native American companion I had during my mission convinced me to find my spiritual roots in what he called a "Dream Quest". I walked away from "civilization" into the wilderness to live on only what G-d would provide. I took with me a rope and an knife.
It took a couple of weeks but I finely learned how truly rich it is to be a son of G-d on such an abundant planet. The earth shared with me great riches to grant my every need. Not so much my wants but all my needs and then some to spare. If I needed water - I was given water. If I needed food - I was given food to sustain me and not once did the food make me sick. But when I returned and tried to adjust again to the food of "civilization"; I got very sick.
One of my interesting experiences when I finely walked out of the desert of southern Utah - I walked to the Saint George temple and in rags that had not been washed or changed for 40 days - I laid on the grass of the temple grounds and was amazed at the sense of smell I had. I closed my eyes and could smell the different kinds of grass around me as well as the separate trees and flowers. A temple security person approached me and was one of the first persons I talked to following my 40 days in the wilderness - He smelled like a cow - most likely from the milk he drank and I could still smell his breakfast on his breath.
We do not own houses, cars or even the shirt on our back - These things are all on loan to us while we live our mortal lives. I honestly believe most live and die never realizing their riches and the great abundances that is ours. Those 40 days have given me many things - one of the greatest things is in understanding riches are not owned - if we try to own riches they will in slave and own us. Riches is not in owning but in appreciating and thankfulness. Like the old song said - "We don't know what we've got til it gone." My most valued assets that make me rich in every way are not liquid by the world's standards and their value is in keeping and caring - not in trading for money or bartering for things.
I agree and I will take it even a step further, our body is on loan as well. The body will turn to dust in the end from where it came.
So, in that way people can fall in love with worldly things by falling in love with self and carnal traits (traits afforded by the body). In other words, if someone is born with a genetic affinity towards science (that is the way their brain is wired), that is only on loan, not self. Or, if they are born with a body that grows to be 7'2'' and becomes a famous and wealthy professional basketball player, that is also on loan and not self but a temporary trait that turns to dust as the body will return to its original state, dust. Or if a person is vain about their thick curly brown hair, for example, that is falling in love with things of this world that will turn to dust that are just on loan. This is why humility is so important, to not fall into the trap of thinking these "talents" or traits on loan, that are really just stewardships, are somehow owned. They are not owned, we are only temporary stewards of these things.
This is why Christ used so many parables about stewards and stewardship and servants, laborers etc, none of whom owned anything they were working with. In the end we may be given these things, like the parable of the ten talents but for now we have to maintain the attitude that we are simply stewards of everything given. If these things were owned and we were not stewards then there could not be the statement, where much is given much is required, because those things wouldn't be "given" they would just be self.
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What does any of that have to do with "Self"?
Certainly we lose ourselves to find ourselves but we still retain our individuality and our distinctness.
You can't have it both ways where our Heavenly Father delights in variety but desires an outcome where we are a hive mind.
Here is a great talk on the subject -
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/06/eternal-principles-of-government-a-theological-approach?lang=eng
We need to be careful about how we speak of these things. Like Elder Maxwell is here -
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/swallowed-up-in-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng
The only reference to the word variety in the talk you referenced was this "Family and church government would be sensitive to this principle in a variety of ways." So, I am not sure why you referenced the article in the first place. Can you show me some other references where our "Heavenly Father delights in variety". I think one has to distinguish that from having many kinds of things. Variety is different than having many kinds or types of animals, plants etc. Where does it say that God delights in the variety of man? He only made one man and one woman according to our scripture. That does not sound like variety to me.
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We all go through life with filters. Many of us Americans believe we should be rich; that being rich is a goal. Fact is, not everyone wants to be rich. Some never envision themselves with more money than they need. I would agree with many of the comments made, but would be careful to use trite quotes as a crutch as to why one (we) is not rich. Fact is, some don't care - and it is with them that I agree most.
(This comment isn't aimed at you, just using your statement as a starting point for my comment)
The flip side of that is that some people make poverty a virture. My parents do that. I grew up in an area of San Diego where there is a lot of disparity in wealth, next to La Jolla for those that know San Diego and the ward area is large, it encompased 4 high schools. So, my parents, while I was growing up, would tell me that wealth is a curse and essentially a sign of unrighteousness. I think that is the opposite extreme.
Wealth is not a sin or a sign of loving money more than anything else, necessarily. The love of money is the problem and that cannot be judged by the size of one's house or how many cars one owns etc. Growing up with that disparity and growing up in very humble setting (qualifying for almost every government assistance program, for example) and now having what most would call wealth, I would say that just as many poor as rich focus on money in this country. They focus on the fact that they don't have it but want it or they focus on the fact that they have it and want more. So, just being poor alone is not a virtue. The problem is not something any of us can easily detect from an outward perspective, it is a passion of the heart problem which only God can judge.
At the same time, I believe if one has wealth they should not flaunt it, they should not be outwardly in the "spacious building". If one flaunts their wealth it only assists the calling attention to it more, either for their self or others. This is true even when the 'calling attention' to is results in negative comments - 'did you see the size of that diamond on her finger?' etc. The eye of envy would stil be called a love of money even if one doesn't have it. This is why I refuse to read or subscribe to magazines or watch television shows that promote the following of celebrities and what they wear or what they own. The culture of; 'Did you see how much she paid for that house? Did you see what she wore to the awards ceremony? ... contributes to the love of money as well.
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An interesting Brigham Young quote for discussion.
"If the Latter-day Saints will walk up to their privileges, and exercise faith in the name of Jesus Christ, and live in the enjoyment of the fulness of the Holy Ghost constantly day by day, there is nothing on the face of the earth that they could ask for, that would not be given to them. The Lord is waiting to be very gracious unto this people, and to pour out upon them riches, honor, glory and power, even that they may possess all things according to the promises he has made through his Apostles and Prophets"
Thoughts?
The quote, if one reads it carefully, does not really say when those things will be given to the saints. It is just saying if you desire any of those things and do so while being guided by the Holy Ghost then the Lord is willing to give those things according to the promises made through his Apostles and Prophets - in other words, the promises made by covenants, all things will be given to the faithful. Receiving everything God has eventually, in other words, requires a desire for it but that doesn't necessarily mean desiring it for use in this life except under the circumstances by which the Holy Ghost guides it for this life. Otherwise, he is talking about receiving all God has in the next life.
Brigham Quote - Why aren't we all rich?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Thanks for your comments.
I have seen some description (exact references I am not remembering at the moment) that our inheritance is full to begin with and it is ours to lose. By even continuing with the plan in the premortal realm, by being faithful either in an exceedingly valiant way or not so valiant way, we all chose to hold onto our potential, our birthright. The choice of something less than 100% of what God has to offer is by way of losing what we have or veering off the path we are on.
Even Lucifer fell away from the original path but before that he was in line to receive a full inheritance, it was his to lose. He chose to trade it for something else. I think of the story of Esau selling his birthright to Jacob. He despised his birthright, he had it then he didn't want it. Genesis 25; "34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright."
D&C 93; "21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. 23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;"
So, we have the potential to be as the Firstborn and receive of that inheritance, unless we defile that inheritance or do not follow the commandments thus making a choice away from our original choice in the beginning to be with the Father. That potential was there in the beginning as we were with the Father from the beginning. We receive the fullness of truth line upon line but the trajectory starts fullly pointed at God's glory and is only there to be lost or fall short.