Seminarysnoozer

The process and the end are different. I don't know if I can say it any better than what I have. You keep going back to the process as if that is the end. While, I am talking about the purpose, the goal. Are we in a state of Celestial glory right now? Have we reached our goal? AND you keep using the term "being" when I am talking about the desire. If we were judged on what we are as opposed to what is in our heart how could we ever get out of a fallen state? We are judged by what is in our heart, represented, in part, by what we do with the situation and stewardship given here. Being unique doesn't prevent us from giving all glory to God but it does prevent us from giving all the glory we could obtain to God. Until we reach a state of exaltation, we have not reached our potential and in a lower state such as that we can't do what we could do when we reach exaltation. If that were not so, again, why strive to reach that state? If we were perfect in our pre-mortal different levels of valiant natures, why move on from there? Obviously, we are striving to head somewhere, our current state is not the destination as much as you want it to be. If we don't move closer to being like our Heavenly Father then there is no refinement process, we remain equidistant from each other and from Him. There are only 3 choices really, either we remain equidistant in terms of our different traits and nature, or we grow farther apart, or we become more similar. I don't comprehend the plan of remaining equidistant from God in terms of our traits and being, that to me seems like no plan at all, no growth, no progression.

He wont destroy what makes you you. But what is that? It certainly isn't the exact set of temporary fallen traits that you have here in the form of circuits in the brain that drive certain passions, likes and dislikes, sexual drives, survival behaviors, and all other things that we could call stewardship. I think you would agree that a person born with Down Syndrome does not have a body that reflects who they really are. What about a person that has major depression, is that who they really are? Or a person that has bipolar disorder and is promiscuous, is that who they really are? Or the person that has a stroke involving the anterior temporal lobes and is hypersexual, is that who they really are? You might say, 'well those are certain diseases, that is different'. Let me ask you then, which one of our bodies is perfect, is not corrupted in some way? Which one has not fallen from the way God originally created it in Adam and Eve? (Outside of the second Adam) Is that the set of what you think is you that you want to hold on to? Why? That is not really you. If one thinks this set of traits is really them, then every time that person does something great in this world, I would suspect they would say to themselves "I did this" as opposed to "Thank you God for letting me have this experience, for giving me this blessing of the body to do this thing, for giving me this talent, or this gift of the spirit, glory to God." The later is to be contrite, to be humble. If our eye is single to the glory of God, we don't claim any of this for our self, it is a gift, it is a stewardship (temporary control), and we maintain the proper perspective of humility. We are unprofitable servants and yet you want to claim it as your own? Yes, this attitude is a prideful and therefore evil thing. Am I perfect in that regard, of course not. Is anyone else, no, except our savior. He said many times, in essence, don't give thanks to me, thank your Father in Heaven, I am not good, there is only one who is good. For the many reasons that have been posted already and discussed, God could not force us to become like Him. We have to choose it. I have already stated that I believe agency is necessary in this process. To choose it though requires wanting it. If a person wants to be something less than our Heavenly Parents they have every right to choose that. I am not wishing that agency be taken away and God force this upon us. It can't be done that way. We have to really want it and only in this setting where we are faced with deceitful influences can we have the opportunity to show our true nature, what we really want. We then can appreciate and use the things that we inherit from our parents in it's proper way. If we are not good stewards here though, we won't be stewards over bigger things. Again, I think you misunderstand what I am saying about uniqueness. I have never said that being unique is evil. I have been talking about the desires of one's heart. Being unique is no more evil than having money or being a learned person. But we know the love for things of this world that eventually turn to dust, even intelligence of man, is evil if it is not done with an eye single to the glory of God. Personally, I hope to become just like my Heavenly Mother and inherit all that my Father has. Btw, when you see "identical" twins (even though they are not exactly identical because there are mutations of the genes that keep them from being identical 100%) is that appalling to you?

Yes! I agree. And the verse right before it says clearly that we have to do the will of the Father, not our own individually determined path. Of course faith is needed and some knowledge, but we will not be judged on knowledge but the desire of the heart. (was this supposed to be on the other thread on faith?)

The concept of perfect is only lost when people look away from Christ' example, to try to suggest that it is something other than that. We don't need any other beacon of perfection. The target doesn't evolve over time to fit the needs of a changing carnal people. It should be the same goal for every person as it was before we entered this world. There are not multiple goals and patterns. Every metaphor about this path suggests singleness not multiples, the iron rod, the straight and narrow, etc. (I don't believe in a God that can err and remain being God. D&C 88: " 17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it. 18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory; 19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father; 20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified." Their bodies are sanctified (freed from sin) forever and ever and Satan and his followers are cast out forever. Those people will come unto His rest, not from labors but from wrestling with sin.)

Come on, really? This is why, several times I said parents and also included Heavenly Mother. This is also why I included what God had originally created both male and female, Adam and Eve. This was already accounted for in our discussion. That is just being silly. But, I would ask yourself, Does God know what it is like to have a baby, not just know about it but what it feels like etc.? Or, do you think He doesn't know that? We will not all have the same abilities .... not all will make it to the highest level. You don't have to worry about that. I would just say, don't devalue yourself to something less than the fullness, to some subset of all that our Heavenly Father has to offer. What is the value in setting our goals less than the fullness? Luke 14: " 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and acounteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." In other words, why set out on this course if you don't intend on going all the way? We all wanted to go all the way before this life began, we all wanted to be like our Heavenly Parents but to do that requires forsaking all that you have, even your own life and everything that goes with it. We are unprofitable servants, why should we claim it as our own?

I never spoke of individual effort ending. Here, the quote given is to dissuade people from believing that we meld into one being in the next life. I don't believe that. You know that I don't believe that (I am LDS after all). With the Joseph F. Smith quote, he is talking about the need to remain united here in this life despite our differences, that we can still be united even though we have the corruption of differences in us. Please don't take that out of context. This is not what I have been talking about and you know that (at least I have said that many times). He even says in the quote given that we can equally be in opposition to the plan with these differences. "...as we can possibly be when in opposition to these purposes and designs." Satan's plan was a lie. It was not true. Satan's plan does not exist in reality. It was a trick to think that it could be given without effort. It appealed to souls because that is what they wanted. That is what we wanted, to be like our Heavenly Father. If it was not what those souls wanted it wouldn't have appealed to them at all and nobody would have discussed the issue if it was so appalling. The destination of the two plans presented were the same, its just that the one plan was a lie and couldn't work and still doesn't work. It is only through individual effort that we can get there, this is the plan that you and I chose, to have a chance to prove that we will do the things Our Father in Heaven asks us to do. Why? So, we can be like Him some day. The evil of Satan's plan was not sameness, even if that is true, which I have never really heard it described that way. The evil of the plan is that Satan thought he could do it without giving glory to God and could force it without agency. He thought he could do it in his own way and under his own power. He was trying to forge his individual path instead of following a straight and narrow pathway that doesn't change over the eternities. Just like it is here in this world, Satan wants people to think that their own desires should rule over the will of God. Satan wants people to think "I was born this way, So, I should follow that, then I can claim all glory for myself because I did it my way." The correct plan is to CHOOSE to follow the will of God. By doing so we make ourselves more Christ like in every way. We CHOOSE to follow the admonition of Paul and the admonition of King Benjamin and the admonition of Joseph Smith, we hope ALL things, we seek after all things that are virtuous, lovely or of good report. If we are successful in obtaining ALL those things (which won't happen in this life) then we will not look or act much differently from each other, infinitesimally so that the ultimate achievement is to be exactly like our Heavenly Parents. This is the plan and the purpose that we all signed up for. There are many, if not most, that will not make it that far because along the way they will get hung up on worldly possessions (including the body) that they start to claim as their own and as if they deserve to have those things, including certain traits and characteristics. It is based in where one's heart is. Please, name one trait, you think, a person that makes it into the Celestial Kingdom would have that would be something we could say that our Heavenly Parents do not have. I think if you ponder that, you will answer that there is no such trait that is praiseworthy that our Heavenly Parents do not have that would make another stand out as different than them if they find themselves in the Celestial Kingdom at the highest level. Those at lower levels have deficiencies of those traits and therefore are different. I have never argued the idea of agency, in fact, I am stressing it's importance that we choose the right path. We should choose the path that keeps our eye focused on the FULL glory of God, not partial, less valuable glory.

Are we not having the same conversation? You brought up a comparison of peaches and pineapples coming together to bring different flavors to one upside down cake. I was pointing out that the example you gave was of two different species of fruit. Now, if you would have said I think the upside down cake is better when one peach is ripe and the other is spoiled, then that is more metaphorically correct from what I think you are trying to say. And again, I am not talking about the differences that are found in a corrupted fallen state. Yes I know how genetics works, I also know of how there are mutations and alterations to the genes passed on from parents to children. This is, in part, part of the corruption we find ourselves in. What we have now is really different from the original creation in Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, not only because of the change in the body caused by the Fall itself but also the corruption it introduced into the system of change and alteration from the original caused by the passing of genes from one generation to the next. If one prefers the corrupted copy over the original, then the 'restoration' to the original will account for that because corruption will be restored to corruption. That is a choice depending on ones desire. Is the heart's desire on Christ or self? ... and to what degree? Nobody is perfect here but the goal, as I see it, is to focus on Christ, not self and all the imperfections that come with the natural man. I think sometimes people want to say that Christ (perfection) is not the goal because they don't want to offend or make people feel bad about the situation they find themselves in. But, we are all in a fallen state, everyone of us. We are not expected to achieve that perfection on our own or during this life. Christ is the finisher. This life is just a test of what our true nature is, the true desire of our heart when given the choice between carnal versus spiritual influences.

Right! That is my point. Then why should it matter to us if we have them then? For some, obviously, it matters a lot, but then that is placing the desires of the heart on things that don't matter. If people place their desires on things of dust then they are not going to find themselves in a dustless Kingdom in the end. They will get what they want. I really doubt that God is one to do things that don't matter or is quirky or random. From what I read, He has purpose in what He does. His purpose is what dictates who He is and how He acts, His personality and traits are all dictated by having a oneness in purpose, to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man. Of course, there are many works and things that we do not know about. I don't know if you are privy to those 'unknown' works. But to suggest, even, that those unknown works would contain an element of purposeless activity seems off the character of the God I worship.

A peach and a pineapple are not of the same species. One did not beget the other. If you are trying to say that God is of a different type than us, then that is a different religion than LDS that you are talking about. I guess I was speaking under the premise that most in the LDS faith had a testimony of being literal sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father (and Mother). If a like or dislike of any particular item of your choosing "doesn't matter", if that is really true, then I would expect Jesus to say 'it doesn't matter' and anyone who reaches that level of understanding and appreciation for all things would likely say 'it doesn't matter' and they would not claim to like one thing over another as 'it doesn't matter'. So, in that sense of their indifference, they would be exactly the same. If it really doesn't matter, then a person of that level would never claim that it does, they would never claim that they "prefer" one over another in that category which has no significance. In a lower state of understanding we place significance on many things that don't matter. And then we go and claim that that is how we differ. Why would one want to hold onto differences that don't matter? That makes no sense at all.

It is difficult to find "perfect" descriptions of many words in the scripture and when discussing gospel concepts, not just the word 'charity'. Intelligence, spirit, body, soul, 'hardening of the heart', 'obscuring the right eye', stiffnecked, fallen, children, Father, etc. etc. This is why understanding these terms is not just in a definition but done with prayerful consideration. ... and as far as I am aware, this is part of the first instructions given to those investigating this religion, to do it in prayer.

Because the test we face here is not the exactness in which we follow methodology. It is not a test of intellectual assessment. The test is to separate out how much our hearts are into it. Everyone on Earth has passed the first estate, we have already passed the intellectual, methodology and assessment part of the exam. Some have passed in a more valiant way than others but we all passed. We already have talked the talk, now we have to walk the walk. Meaning we all have the method and the knowledge to go on to the next step which is a practicum in the setting of having opposing drives. Is the nature of our being such that we follow spiritual drives our self satisfying physical drives? God has the measuring stick on this and we all have different tests we face here, but putting that together He can place us in a gradient level of glory, the lowest of which is even much more higher than any level of intelligence anyone could ever achieve in this world. I kind of think of the example of a soldier in boot camp who makes an oath to die for his fellow soldiers if needed. Even if all the soldiers, while in boot camp, intellectually agreed to that high ideal of sacrificing their life, if need be, for their fellow soldiers, in the battle field that may be a different story. While in boot camp, they never really had the chance to test out that ideal. Things are a little different on the battle field, there are a lot of emotions that come into play that may sway a person from their original ideal. The real test of integrity is if the person follows through with their original ideal. Here, in this battle field, there are things that sway us away from our original ideal, including the "logical" wiring of our brain. The test is one of integrity to the values we said we had before this life began.

That truth was given in the pre-mortal life. Anyone who has passed the first estate has received the truth. That was the verbal part of the exam, this is the practical, but we still rely on that same knowledge base.

I think you are 180 degrees misinterpreting those statements. If anything, those statements are supporting what I am saying and especially in Matthew 10. The statements you provided are not speaking of "where "we are going but the "how" to get there. "How" we get there is through individual and independent effort. It is an expression of independent and individual effort, to give up our individual self to become more like Christ. But paradoxically, that is not binding or limiting, it provides more freedom. Those statements are clearly not saying to remain equidistant from Christ in one's individual traits and desires. God could not automatically make us like Him, in an instant, even though we wanted to be like Him. To get there requires coming here and having this opportunity to really see our deficiencies and to make the changes that are required to refine ourselves from the inside and become more like Him. The change can't be given, in other words, without individual and independent effort and so by going through this life with that goal in mind we are "proving" that we will do what is asked and that we really do desire to be like Him. What is being said in the Mormon Encyclopedia is that the giving up of your own individual self is paradoxically an expression of individual effort even though it seems like one is giving up how they see themselves in this life. What Jesus is saying in Matthew 10 is to not love the things of this world more than the gospel. To not love father and mother more than the gospel (which is an interesting statement if one things about genetics and the nurturing traits obtained from father and mother). Losing one's life for Christ is to give up what one thinks naturally should be their path in life, their individually forged path to follow the straight and narrow path Christ has made for us. Instead of being fishermen, become fishers of men. Instead of being a musician, an athlete, a scientist, an artist, a doctor, lawyer or whatever other title given by men or given to one self, be a follower of Christ above that. That is more important than the individual, distinguishing titles men give themselves. The process of going from individual and independent traits and characteristics to the oneness that Christ desires of all of us (the "how"), takes individual effort. To get there requires the person, independently, on their own effort to cause the mighty change of heart, to refine those things on their own. God will not force a person to make those changes if they don't have that desire in their heart. A person has to willingly give up those things. And that is exactly what I have been saying. I have heard from you all that you shouldn't be willing to give or your life to be like Christ, if anything. That one should maintain their own temporary corrupted set of traits as if it is their own, as if that is more valuable then what God has to offer. I think " 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." in Matthew 10 is a pretty clear statement about where our desire should be. It should not be on ourselves, it should be on Christ. We should be willing to give of what we might call valuable such as a specific talent or ability and realize that this set of traits are just a temporary stewardship, it is the cross to bear, it is the life that we should give up to serve God and not claim it as our own like an unjust and unprofitable steward would. Everything in the gospel points towards Christ. It does not point to things less than Christ. People that say things like "be yourself" or "do what makes you feel good" or "you were born that way" or anything less than "be Christlike" fall into the trap oftentimes of choosing to follow the desires that come from our carnal state over our spiritual drives of becoming more like our Heavenly Father. To willingly give up our natural man (which is what most people perceive as their self, even though it isn't, it is just temporary) takes independent and individual effort which paradoxically provides more freedom. In other words, it seems like it is narrowing options to be just like Christ but it actually offers more freedom and choice. Whereas, to choose the narrowed and fallen natural man state (your life, to not bear the cross - giving up self) over having all is to not understand one's true value, like Jesus said in Matthew 10 " 31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. 32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." I think Jesus was, in many ways, trying to say why do you fear giving up yourself? Don't you know that you are more valuable than the way you find yourself now? We are more valuable than choosing a state of having only partial good traits, God wants us to have 100% of what He has.

Because 100% of something looks like 100% every time. A whole pie looks like a whole pie, whereas if a person were to cut slices away then there could be distinguishing features from the whole pie that you could say was different one from the other. Will everyone get to the fullness? No. So, will most have 100% of all the good traits, all the things talked about in the 13th article of faith? No. So, the argument that most will not act and be the same, to me, is not what I am talking about anyways. If person A in this life starts out with their certain characteristics and works hard to follow the gospel of Christ and person B works hard to follow the gospel with her set of temporary characteristics, at the end of their hard work and diligence in following the gospel, would they appear to be more similar, less similar or remain equidistant in terms of their differences forever? If you say they remain equidistant in terms of their differences, I really don't know what the purpose of this life is for in that scenario. Why go through the refiner's fire to be more like our Heavenly Father then? Why not remain in the state we were in? Or, just all die before any accountability is given so we get a body and remain in the diverse state of not moving towards being more like Christ and our Father in Heaven? If a Heavenly Father A was standing side by side with a Heavenly Father B or a Heavenly Mother A and B compared, what differences would you see between the A and B? What would one have that the other wouldn't? Tell me one thing that one could have that the other doesn't in terms of their traits and characteristics?

Explain to me, please, why uniqueness is more valuable to you than would be having all the good traits that would include all the ones that you find good in yourself now plus all the good traits you may not have at this time? Having all the good traits would not take away the ones that you find good now. Having all good traits would be in addition to the deficiencies we find in this life that causes us to see ourselves as unique. A journey from point A to point A is not really a journey. If we keep all the same differences and there is no refinement or sanctification process, I am not sure what you see the purpose of this life to be. To go through a refiner's fire is to go from point A to point B. Yes, we don't all make it there and so most people will have the differences remain, I realize that. But, I guess, the question is, do you see that process of going from point A to point B making all of us more similar or less similar or maintaining the 'differences that were there and will always be there'. I tend to think this life is a chance to refine, it is a process of perfection and there are goals and purposes of this process that result in making us more like our Heavenly parents. I realize this doesn't jive with most people in the world and several people on this forum as well but that is how I see the plan. It is an arrow head type process leading to an infinite point, that again not all will make it to that end as opposed to an entropy like process where we get further apart and more specialized in our differences.

I think you find my posts "weird" because you keep applying them to something I am not talking about as if that is my intention. I have already stated that I know we were different before and we are especially different here as we are given unique, temporary, probationary stewardship that should never be claimed as our own, and that most will be different in the next life. You keep talking about your feelings here as if I am talking about how things should be here. I think that is a misconception of what I am talking about. I believe that everyone here is given various stewardship for specific tests that that person must tackle while in this life. The number of people that will achieve the fullness, all that God has is few. So, I think exactly like you said that the distinctions for the majority will remain at some level. I don't disagree with that. I am talking about those that receive everlasting to everlasting. D&C 132: 20 "20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. 22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me." I don't know if a person who makes it to that level in the end (again, I am not talking about during this life, because I agree it is not necessary during this life) would tell herself at that time (future), "I don't need to understand the intricacies of quantum mechanics to be fulfilled" if that in any way relates to having all the power that God has. If God does not know the intricacies of quantum mechanics then I suppose a person at that time (again, not necessary for this current part of the test) would not have interest in it. If all "things are subject unto them" it sounds like they will have no deficiencies in their power and knowledge and especially if compared one to another. But you are right in saying the majority of people will not be in that position. I don't think I have said anything different from that. D&C 132:25 " 25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law." Many will try to find their own path off the straight and narrow. They will let go of the rod and try to make their way to the LARGE and SPACIOUS building. And they will mock those that want to stay on the single path, the narrow path that leads to a specific type of fruit that is as plain as plain could be, it is as white and exceedingly white (no distinguishing marks, not varied in color - metaphorically speaking) as anything ever seen. Many will end up as the stars, which are numerous and vary one from the other. That was not what I was talking about. When talking about "we" as a whole, like you keep doing in your posts, it cannot be applied to what I am saying because I am not talking about the whole but the small, few that get to the highest level of the "all" God has.

One last try .... If a person who finds themselves in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom says "I love roses. I love all roses" and this, we presume is a good trait, who else in the Celestial Kingdom, having a fullness of glory and goodness at that level, would love roses any less? Nobody, they would love roses with equal amount of enthusiasm. Or if someone in the Celestial Kingdom at that highest level says, "I have an aptitude for music" and we presume this is a good trait, one that is worth seeking, then who else in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom who has received all the goodness there is to receive would have any less of an aptitude for music? Nobody, they would all have a fullness of that aptitude and trait for music. Or if someone in the Celestial Kingdom at the highest level says, "I have an aptitude for quantum physics". Who else in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom would say that they have any less of an aptitude for quantum physics, if we assume this is a good trait to have? Nobody, they would all have an equal amount of aptitude for any good and positive trait which is the fullest it could possibly be, it would be at 100%. 100% of any good and positive trait and like or dislike, attitude or mannerism would look like 100% for everyone who has received a fullness of that glory. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. In the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, those people will have the opportunity to make their growth and increase eternal and to receive a fullness of all that God has, including all the things that are virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy. All the traits that our Heavenly Father has would fit that description of those things that we seek after. In the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, which one of those traits are not achieved? To say that someone would like this more than that or not prefer this over that or have an aptitude for this over someone else requires that at least someone does not have 100% of that particular trait or there is a trait that is not good that they are still holding on to. (And again you are reading into what I have said "the desire for" as "being". In this life we are different which is part of our fallen state. Just like someone can be rich and get into the Celestial Kingdom. It is the desire of our heart that we will be judged by. With an eye single to the glory of God, I am not sure how one could still maintain an eye towards their own glory of what they perceive as their uniqueness. It is not ours when it is given for the glory of God. If one claims it as their own, that already falls short of the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom, in my opinion. Lucifer tried to claim his own glory, but that is not how the system works, it is shared, it is sealed by covenant to experience the whole. In the same way Jesus can take on the whole of our sins to the point of feeling them, we can have that ability to share all the wonderful traits of all as well as the glorifying successes of all in that Kingdom making it no different than if we had done it ourselves. This is what allows for eternal increase. If it was individual it would have a limit, which is short of the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.)

If one spends their life searching the physical world mysteries to the expense of not listening to their heart and they start to obscure their right eye, harden their heart, become stiffnecked to the point of struggling with concepts such as the first principles of the gospel, therefore cannot hear the promptings of the light of Christ and choose pathways that lead to things other than happiness, what kind of faith do you call that? ... I will tell you, it is faith in man. There are only two ends of the spectrum, most of us are somewhere in between as we are not perfect or have perfect faith in Christ. That is either a person has faith in Christ or faith in the teachings of man, again we are all likely somewhere in the middle of this scale. All truth, whether it is scientific truth or metaphysical truth (as you call it) is known to be true by the spirit. I will prove it to you. Think of the smartest scientist you have ever known. Now, think of that person with end stage Alzheimer's disease. How much truth has that person obtained now? If one puts their faith in things that turn to dust, so will their knowledge turn to dust. Faith in the everlasting makes it everlasting.

To use the word verify means that you believe they are true, you have "faith" that they are true until they become proven to you. My point is that the majority of your knowledge is based in the work of someone else. It is not your own. It therefore requires faith in those scientists that came before you. This directly answers your original question of why faith in Christ is the first principle. It is not the only principle, just one of the first ones to get us to the gate. After through the gate then faith in Christ, hope in Christ, charity (the love of Christ) and endure to the end (keeping Christ's commandments) combined take us the rest of the way. I have an advanced degree in Neuroscience and have worked in science all my life, my husband is a physician, my father taught in a University and I don't see any clash between the gospel and science at all. To me they really aren't on the same spectrum anyways. As I said before, if gathering information, as is done in scientific study was all that was needed to be like God, then we wouldn't need to come here and be tested. We had had all the scientific training before this life began. We lived many many years with God and had matured before coming here. What we learned before coming here beats out any bit of knowledge obtained by all the scientists put together over all the years in the past and into the future. The moment the veil is lifted we will all see how fallen we are in this state. There is no amount of secular learning that will pass what you have already learned in the past. What we are to learn is how to discern spiritual desires from carnal and how to choose the spiritual over carnal passions. That is the wisdom we didn't have the chance to learn prior to this life. Not the knowledge of quantum physics, or medical science etc. We have already long surpassed the elementary knowledge of those things we get here. What do you think the purpose of this life is?

Guess I was letting "phil" in your name drive that assumption, sorry.

Thank you, thank you! Wow, I thought I was alone in this for a sec. This may, in fact, be part of the test as uniqueness is rooted in self centered thoughts. Pride and entitlement are the fruits of the wanting to possess uniqueness. Whereas, humility, being as a child and a sense of our own nothingness are the fruits of having our eye single to the glory of God. To see our neighbors as ourselves is what we want to learn to love.

I don't see that as different. I have been saying that exact thing, that we are not "tied to our body", how we find ourselves is not who we really are. Many have been saying, in essence, that they are tied to their body, they couldn't fathom the idea of not being unique like their body is right now. We are in agreement then. I have been saying all along that we shouldn't be tied to our differences and uniqueness we find here. This is a temporary state of given, acquired set of traits that is part of our challenge that goes back to dust in the end. If we learn to love those traits they can stay with our spiritual make up. If we don't love them they don't have to stay with our spirit. This is why we seek after the things that are praiseworthy and of good report. If two, separate people, sought after all the good traits and wanted to remove all the bad traits, and this ideal continued through the next life, eventually they would look very similar if not the same. One thing to point out is that "overcome" doesn't necessarily mean get rid of it during this life. Paul was okay with the "thorn in the flesh" and knew he couldn't really get rid of it because we are supposed to have these thorns here. Ultimately, it is Christ's atonement that will overcome all the effects of the Fall, depending on where we put our desires, on the flesh or on the spirit.

Luke 18:14 " 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 18:19 "19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God." D&C 121:7 "7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;" Mosiah 4:5-8 " 5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state— 6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body— 7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world. 8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you." President Uchtdorf; "The great deceiver knows that one of his most effective tools in leading the children of God astray is to appeal to the extremes of the paradox of man. To some, he appeals to their prideful tendencies, puffing them up and encouraging them to believe in the fantasy of their own self-importance and invincibility. He tells them they have transcended the ordinary and that because of ability, birthright, or social status, they are set apart from the common measure of all that surrounds them. He leads them to conclude that they are therefore not subject to anyone else’s rules and not to be bothered by anyone else’s problems." (i.e - appeal to the differences found in man, the paradox being we may seem different in this life but we are all children of God) Moses 1:5 " 5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth." ( - once a person beholds all His glory, they can't remain in this fallen state, with all the corruption we find here, 'in the flesh') Moses 1:9-11 "9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth. 10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed. 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him." (note the words "receive again" - why would he say that unless it was something that was given to him once before, like when he first fell into this fallen state of nothingness - birth) Alma 5:14 " 14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?" (a reference to wanting to be like Him, a change from our current countenance) ! Corinthians 12 : " 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." (Paul explaining in this life we are separated but our goal is to become one. This whole chapter he explains that we can't look at who we are as more important than the whole body. The foot can't say it has no need for the hand, etc. Even though that is how we find ourselves now, we are learning to like being one, where one person suffers all suffer, where one is honored all is honored. In other words, there is no uniqueness, it is all shared. That is our goal that isn't achieved here in this life but still it is our goal to reach that state, to all sense the same things.) President Monson said; "As the result of Christ’s victory over the grave, we shall all be resurrected. This is the redemption of the soul. Paul wrote: “There are … celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.” It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings are earned through a lifetime of striving, seeking, repenting, and finally succeeding." There are many others but this is all I have time for. ... things to ponder, at least.

I was being snarky, I apologize. I think it has already been mentioned a few times that what we find here in this fallen state is a variation or corruption from the original copy. So, I don't disagree with the variance that we find in this world and in this life as it pertains to the mortal body.

I never said being different is bad. I have been suggesting, though, that the love of being different may be the wrong desire of the heart if one is trying to make it to a place where everyone is like Heavenly Father. In the same sense, money is not evil, differences are not evil. This is a fallen state that we are asked to pass through. But to love the corruption we find ourselves in now, which is the carnal state we are in may not be the right choice. This is part of the test we face, do we feed our carnal natures or nurture our spiritual nature and potential. ... and to what degree. It is not an all or nothing test of course, we are being tested as to what degree we favor these things. If I live my life with my heart mind might and soul with an eye single to the glory of God, what percentage of that single thought is directed to my own (temporary) uniqueness? Maybe you don't believe this but I know that our stewardship given here in this life is not me. Just like the child who is born with Down Syndrome is not that person. You may say, well there are diseases that are not the person. If you believe that, even a little, then tell me whose body in this life is perfect? So, how you are right now is not really you. This is what you have been given temporarily as a set of traits and characteristics that are for your test in this fallen state. "Fallen" means that we are not like how we were before this life even. How far fallen are we? I tend to think, very far, if you consider living and growing in the presence of God for at least thousands of years, probably a lot more. Are you saying we should love our fallen state more than our potential? We should love God, even unto death (meaning giving up everything about this life).