Seminarysnoozer

We all are very spiritual people, we all had intensive spiritual training before this life. I think our spirit still carries some memory of our previous life but is radically altered by the corrupted brain circuitry so it remembered in an altered way. The brain does a good job of filling in the blanks of pieces of information, like the disappearance of the blind spot in our visual field or the fact that when we snap our fingers in front of our face the brain hears the sound a lot quicker than when we actually see the image but the brain makes it seem that they occur at the same time. With those creative frontal lobes of ours, a story or set of beliefs can be created around some basic beliefs we carried through from the previous life. Because they carry some of the basic beliefs, a certain portion of people can begin to agree with those concepts which gives it the potential to eventually turn into an organized religion or described set of beliefs.

It's the ol' going to school with your pajamas on dream but in the context of your current obligations.

Having something and being something can be two separate things. When my son gets an A in school, I can feel the joy of that grade even though I am not the one who earned it. This is a principle that is wrapped up in the commandment of loving thy neighbor as thy self. In the Kingdom in which that is done fully, what joy that comes from one person would not be felt or experienced by another? The individual success and glory plan got voted out a long time ago.

Yes and the "formulating to each other" is something like this; Holy Ghost -> Spirit (A) ->Body (A) <--- 'formulating to each other' ----> Body ( B ) --> Spirit ( B ) <--> Holy Ghost confirms the truth of the message. .... at least in this life. I realize people talk about spirit directly talking with spirit but this is rare and not usual in terms of communications amongst "believers". Usually the spirit to spirit communication we talk about is simply a confirmation of the truthfulness of such a message, as in feeling the spirit when we are in Sunday School, etc. But still the message had to be passed through the corrupted body, twice in fact, for the message to be passed. The messages received by the prophets and passed to us through scripture are "formulated to each other" in this way, for example. It is delivered as if it is the sound of a trumpet, pure but they often can only hope that it is received in the same way. This is because to pass the spirit to spirit communication received to someone else, it has to go through the corrupted body, twice, to eventually reach the other persons spirit.

Thanks for your response. I am not suggesting plainness. I am suggesting that 100% of something looks exactly like 100% no matter how the 100% was achieved. If person A has all the Father has and person B has all the Father has, what diversity exists between the two? What talent or like or dislike does one have that the other does not have? As soon as one says that one has something the other doesn't then by definition they do not have all or a fullness. Either we believe a fullness means fullness as in 100%, like the prodigal son or it means only a part, which really isn't a fullness to me. The striving for diversity, in other words, is the striving for something less than 100%.

This could also explain why He had to be the Only Begotten. The perfectly united spirit and flesh is impossible when the flesh is corrupted like the copy we have now. To fulfill that role He would need a close to perfect body to begin with or at least have been able to remove the corruptions before He started His ministry, having grown in stature before man and God. Christ subjected the flesh even unto death while alive in some respects. Death meaning the separation of the spirit from the body. If the passions of the body are so ignored while alive, then it is as if the person is dead. We have a very hard time separating passions of the body from the spirit, which makes us not dead. But fortunately we can be alive in God, after this life, coming into His rest and not having to face these corruptions again. Christ is the Father of the uncorrupted body. By calling ourselves children of Christ we express our desire to have a body like that, to be one, united in perfect harmony.

From Gospel Principles, Chapter 2 God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335).

Thanks, I wasn't really asking about the person just the concept itself. I think I have even seen books called Mormon Mysticism.

How is this different from having the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Thanks, I mostly agree. I would make a distinction, though, from this carnal and corrupted body to the intended "symbiotic" body received only in resurrection. This life can reveal and be in symbol of the future ascension to that state which is symbiotic but currently it is still a fallen state at best. I was not talking about the message given but the message received. So, as far as the message given, I think we are on the same page. If I were to try to teach calculus to a 3 year old, it really doesn't matter how perfect my message is, it would be received differently than if the same message was received by a math major in college. Our bodies are corrupted and in our current state cannot (and was never intended to) receive the things that a perfected body could. A dream, which is a construct of the corrupted body could never be a perfect message. A vision, on the other hand could be received perfectly as it is obtained through the spirit.

I never said we were the same. I am not sure where you got that from. Of course, I believe we all had different levels of being valiant. And just like the scripture in Alma, I believe that we have different "standings". But the gospel accommodates that to make it irrelevant in the end ... unless one doesn't want it to be. If a police officer pulls a person over for a speeding ticket, he is not going to ask what you got on the written test for the driver's license. He is simply going to ask for your license. In that sense, we are all equal, we all passed the test. We don't need to go back to take the first estate test over again if we hold the certificate saying it was completed in whole. I would suggest a warning about the love of individuality for diversity sake alone. There is a Kingdom described that way, the Telestial Kingdom as it differs from one star to another. If that is what is wanted and loved then that will be provided. There are many people in this world who go out of their way to prove their difference to others, their love for individuality is sometimes on display in the form of tattoos, or piercings of all kinds or revealing clothing, etc. Those people who believe in such a way would have a hard time giving of themselves as if their current state is who they really are, not realizing that this life is just a given temporary stewardship. The world teaches a love (desire of the heart-type of love) for individual uniqueness and a desire to hold on to the stewardship as if it is theirs. This is the parable of the unjust steward. It is not theirs. If that is what the person wants and loves in their heart then they will get that thing they want, a unique, isolated and individual set of gifts. The opposing type of love (desire of the heart) would be that of being tied into each other completely, meaning the power of being sealed to all of our brothers and sisters who want to be part of such a system that would allow those individuals the ability to experience all the advancing glory of all accomplishments whether they be directly obtained by the person or someone else. If a person loves everyone else as themselves perfectly (which really isn't possible in this life even though we try), then the accomplishment of that person are experienced as if the person did it themselves. This is the parable of the prodigal son, when returning all the father has is his again, the inheritance is full again. In that light, the Celestial Kingdom is made up of individuals that share all, share all glory, all experience, all that came before and into the future, making their glory the only one with eternal joy and increase. To limit joy, to make it finite, is to look at oneself as unique and isolated. The Savior's power is to make whole where we could not do it for ourselves.

We could not go any further in our development without coming here at that point the next step was offered. Or do you think God offered the next step before we were ready?

This is what happens with a thread. When I make a comment about someone else' comment then the original comment is lost and the focus is taken out of context. I was commenting on shine7's comment about her daughter's patriarchal blessing saying that she had "finished her first estate perfectly". So, the word "finished" got left out of our conversation. Now the word perfectly is taken out of context. I was not trying to imply "perfection" in the sense of being perfected or being perfect but rather finishing something completely or wholly which is an acceptable definition of the word "perfectly" in the English language. The point being, I would suggest that that is what the patriarchal blessing is referring to as well, that the individual has completed what was supposed to be done in the first estate. To say that it has been done imperfectly would imply that the person needs to go back to that estate to finish some undone work. Do you think there are some that need to go back to their first estate and take the test over again? Even if it doesn't, our belief is that Christ is the finisher. Even when we don't complete this estate in a perfect (without mistake) manner, Jesus the Finisher makes it whole for us. It will be recorded, for those who repent and have faith in Him, as being finished perfectly. At least, that is what I have been taught to have faith in. I do not have faith in a "Savior" who does not save, who only guides so I can do it myself later. Doing it all by myself would sound like some other plan. Through a Savior, the price is paid in full and we can be perfected in Him.

But we were all fully matured to that point. All of us that are here were fully obedient, just some of us not so valiant in that obedience. By saying that there are some that were "in whole obedient" you are implying a possibility of being disobedient (in part) and still passing the first estate test. I am not seeing that option. So, if one insists that the different levels of valiancy that occurred in the first estate test is part of the final grade, the final judgement and not paid in full through the atonement or through the blessing that occurs with simply passing the first estate, then when will such a person have the opportunity to go back and take the first estate test again to pass it with a higher grade? When will they be able to go back to a time when there was no knowledge of good and evil to reveal their level of valiancy? Either it is relevant to our final judgement or it is not. If all that is required is to "pass" the first estate test to receive the first estate blessings then the grade would reflect that which is pass or fail. If there is another system of reward given such as those given opportunity to do certain things in this life then how would that apply to the individual who dies before they are 8? The person made bishop in this life proves their higher level of valiant nature than the one who died before the age of 8? I don't think so. The pre-ordination based in how valiant a person was before this life is not a reward it is a calling and level of responsibility as where much is given much is required. If two people meet the requirements for the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and yet in looking in their past, one was more valiant in the pre-mortal world than the other in a slight degree, would the FULL inheritance they received by admission into that kingdom differ? Or does "full" and "all" look different from one to the other?

Please provide your correct definition then.

I disagree. "Corruption" doesn't equate to evil. It just applies to our fallen state. Even Paul stated in the scripture you gave that we still look through the glass darkly. Paul, with his thorn in his flesh know this better than anyone. He yearns for the day that he can see clearly, after the "giving of his body to be burned". By putting off the carnal, then we can see clearly. Of course, we are not really talking about the "message" as you wish it to be. We are talking about the person's description of the message after it is received. Which, by then is in its corrupted transliteration. The blessing of the message often comes in the form of the skill in recognizing the part that comes from the corrupted flesh versus the promptings of the spirit more than even the "facts" of the message itself. One of the biggest things that came from the first vision was the fact that such communication still exists and is done through one who has been given preparation (pre-ordination) to do so. The benefit of the opportunity to obtain the knowledge of good and evil is to discern the difference. This is why Satan's most powerful tool is in mimicry. Things that sound intellectually pleasing (which by-the-way is a passion of the body) is the way the learned man is deceived. The carnal passion for superior intellect can overpower the drive for wisdom and spiritual discernment which really is the main goal. To understand what comes from the body (carnal corrupted sources) versus what comes from the spirit is one of the main reasons to come here and receive death. All the intellectualism occurred before this life.

I think this reinforces the fact that all who make it into the Celestial Kingdom will be sealed to each other and that originally, in the pre-mortal world, we were and still are all family. The question would be, if one finds themselves in the Celestial Kingdom, is it possible to find a soul there that she would not be sealed to? How is my "sealing bond" any different from my bond with a close earthly genetically linked brother (like my actual brother) than it would be with a brother who is distantly genetically linked (i.e.- through Noah or Adam and Eve) finding ourselves in the Celestial Kingdom after all the sealings back to Adam and Eve have been completed? I wonder (okay, chastise me for speculating on this forum again - I feel it coming, even though it pertains to questions about doctrine) if sealing is really about binding "the" singular family in the end and not so much about binding families. In that sense, we can be together forever as a family.

Who in this world did not finish their first estate perfectly? By definition, "keeping our first estate" is to have finished it perfectly.

In a way, it doesn't really matter how He would speak to us but the bottom line is that for it to be of use here in this world it has to be used in consciousness. The final, putting the letter in the mailbox, so-to-speak, has to be consciousness. There is a veil that prevents our spiritual remembrance. If it is simply a lifting of the veil, then why wouldn't all the premortal memory coming flooding in. If it did, then it really isn't a message, it is simply remembering. So, for the "message" to be useful it has to be registered in the consciousness. As soon as any of the past prophets come back from their "dreams" or visions or visitations they have to recall such information using the wiring of the brain. They would have to describe such events using the language centers of the brain, the dominate hemisphere wernicke to broca's area circuitry. They would have to use the visual association cortex, the mind's eye, to describe such events. etc. All those wirings are corrupted. The vision already is not exactly how it was received and experienced. It is translated to a corrupted description which puts it into its consumable form for the rest of us. When the Holy Ghost speaks to our spirit, the spirit of our self still has to communicate to our consciousness for it to be of use in this life. The purity of that communication is dependent on spirituality but even then I doubt that it comes close to the original complexity of the message when it finally gets stored away in the memory circuits of the brain. This is probably why King Benjamin asked his people to "remember to retain" as opposed to just "remember" or just "retain". We have to work at remembering to retain ... like the fleeting and fading memory of a dream.

Yes! This was my exact argument from the beginning, to receive such things "uncorrupted". The act of REM sleep dreaming (as opposed to having a vision/dream while conscious) is by it's anatomy corrupted.

Thanks, I appreciate your comments and have learned so much from this forum as it helps me flesh out my own understanding. I can't say that I disagree with much of what you have to say here ... so, I am not sure about what could be "engaged" anyways. I would just add that the Church is also to prepare for the second coming of Christ and to help establish His Kingdom on Earth, like the stone rolling forth cut without hands ... (to quote a "dream").

I am sorry if that didn't come across as I wanted it to. I misspoke. Thanks for the correction. I had to write a quick response (as I am now) for lack of time. What I was trying to say was more in relation to how that would help the saints, in terms of passing this life's test. The statement wasn't to say that more truths can't be or won't be revealed. I did have in that sentence "to aid the saints" (meaning that individual person receiving a message through a "dream"), so that is the context. The point is that one's level of education about the doctrine is not the measure of salvation and therefore not a primary goal for salvation. There are many scriptures that also point towards the learned man will have a difficult time entering the Kingdom of God just like the rich man. But it is not the learning itself, it is the love of learning worldly facts and information that comes with it a sense of building oneself up above another, just like money and its potential for pride. I think we have to take a similar approach to "discovering mysteries" if it is not for the building of the Kingdom of God but for perceived personal advancement. Of course I believe in the 9th Article of Faith and especially as it says in the article, truths related to the Kingdom of God. Truths related to the doctrine of the Kingdom of God on Earth are likely not going to come from personal revelation in a dream to an individual saint. As Elder Christofferson explains; "In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “we believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9). This is to say that while there is much we do not yet know, the truths and doctrine we have received have come and will continue to come by divine revelation." I am not sure that truths about the doctrine are revealed through a member of the church who does not have the keys to receive such truths, which is not a function of one's faithfulness as pntkl was suggesting but more of God's will to deliver it when needed for the building of the Kingdom.

What impression are your worried about for these "young impressionable minds"? That they will believe in something uplifting, full of hope, a source of happiness, a drive for productivity, something that promotes family unity, a loyalty to country, charity, kindness, healthy living? .... its a good thing there are people trying to get to the bottom of this to not let this happen any longer.

? that didn't really answer my question, as far as I can tell.

Thanks, In what context do you make the above statement? Do you mean after death and resurrection, further truths are to be known? Other than that, I am not sure how "further truths" than what is known from the fullness of the gospel would aid the saints any more. Like you said, its not what we have but what we give. And if any "further truths" were given, that only means that we have to give that much more. Where much is given much is expected. But the "further truths" in and of themselves in this life do not count as any sort of reward, only more responsibility from which we will be judged whether we are good stewards or not. We are supposed to be tested in a fallen state. The testing in the full-truth-knowing state already took place which is called the first estate. You and I and everyone else here already passed that test. No need to take the test again.