Seminarysnoozer

Yes but the cause and effect discussed depends on moral agency not just free will, there is a difference. With agency comes responsibility and accountability and those things are measured by God, not us. For example, a person with Down's syndrome may have free will but may not be held accountable for certain things. Without accountability there is no learning to appreciate the need of a Savior and ultimately the need to depend on others and to serve and love others as it will be for anyone wanting to become Celestial like God. There are some souls that have learned that lesson well enough to move onto the Celestial Kingdom without the mortal test.

Good schmood! .... that is only half the equation. Good has to be coupled with an eye single to the glory of God to count for much. That is unfortunate. I think the only way "brightness" interferes with religion is when a person starts to trust in the arm of man and learns to like to trust in the arm of man more than God. It is the process of where a person turns when looking for guidance, truth and direction as this becomes what is the desire of the heart. In other words, if a person loves man's limited scientific discovery and the thrill and power it provides over the all-knowing power that God has, then that is what they will have in the end. They will get what they want, limited success and limited growth. It is important to keep in perspective that we all likely knew more than all the scientist throughout the existence of mortal Earth will ever discover. And when the veil is lifted all that understanding will pour back into our memory. The test of this life is not scientific fact discovery, it is learning to love the ways of God, the methods of God and His order more than independent self absorbed intelligence. One way to point this out is to reflect on all the things one learns in life, including higher education .... How much of that was discovered by the person's own singular experimentation versus how much was obtained from someone else work or at least building on the information learned from others? Once a person sees that the best way to learn and grow is to obtain the information from someone else and then share their miniscule contribution with everyone else, then they will appreciate God's plan, which is not independent discovery and achievement but a plan of inheritance, including inheriting knowledge, truth and light. This shared glory is only available to those who covenant and remain worthy of such covenants.

I think it may be mixing up the terms logical with empiricism. Empiricism seems to reject faith more directly, I guess unless you count the "burning in the bosom" as a sensory perception.

Ah yes. The failure of pragmatism though is that it doesn't take into account the eternal results. Korihor used similar arguments, that the members were limited in the amount of goodness they could achieve if they weren't limited by the "chains" of their religion. We know how that argument ended.

I am not sure I understand your definition of perfection here. Are you meaning "perfection" as in a completely exalted being, with an already resurrected perfected body similar to God's that will never die again? Or do you mean perfection in the sense of being sinless. I would say that all of us that make it here were sinless before being born. Otherwise, babies should be baptized at birth. I think we all know that babies don't need to be baptized. Why? because they are sinless. So, all of us take on imperfection by coming to this world despite being "perfect" before coming here. We weren't yet perfected but we were perfect. It is described by the prophets as a necessary step to move downward then forward. It is the step necessary to understand good and evil. That is why perfection (of the sinless type) needs to take on imperfection (of the corrupted body, mortal type) to become like God.

I agree with this but this has to be couched with the fact that the thorn in the flesh isn't taken away every time just because of choice. The thorn in the flesh could still continue despite choices. Paul chose not to let his thorn in the flesh disrupt his calling on Earth, in fact it likely made him stronger. At some point though he realized that he couldn't get rid of it, that he had to live with it. God gave him strength to deal with the thorn in the flesh but it remained. I think it is important to realize that this condition, same sex attraction, for most may also be a thorn in the flesh that will not go away despite choice. I have no idea how hard it is to overcome such a thorn but I think some of the frustration would be if people around them think that the thorn is somehow gone just because they are momentarily overcoming the battle of carnal desires. It may take continual, life long effort to keep overpowering the influences of the body and that is no easy task as it is the case with many bodily influences. Just like the people of Alma were still enslaved and worked despite being righteous. But God gave them the strength to make the burden light. I know that those that suffer from any physical challenge can have their burdens lightened by following the gospel even though it may not ever be taken away while in this probationary state. The challenge would become more burdensome though if one does not turn to the Lord for assistance and the individual may be permanently spiritually scared by giving into such carnal passions over time, obscuring the view of their true spiritual self and potential.

A person's perception of what the brain is doing at any given moment is worse than your ability to see every little calculation your computer is doing by watching the screen right now. Conscious awareness, if that is what you mean by cognition (not sure), is a very small part of what the brain does if one were to take into account all the pathways that modify perception and put it into a reasonable package that ends up being conscious awareness. By the time we are aware of that perception it has been modified, altered, affected by current state of mind including hormonal influences and other distractions, summarized and even a lot of times made up de novo by the brain. Just because a neuron is firing that does not mean it is perceived in what we call conscious awareness.

I think you always want to keep in mind one very important fact when talking about these kinds of things, that is that we are dual beings, both body and spirit. And in this life the body does not match the spirit in any kind of one to one relationship that we can define on our own. Valiant souls are born with Down's syndrome and some die with genetic disease that kills them before the age of 8. Just because Moses had a hard time speaking in front of groups while here in this life doesn't mean that was a spiritual trait of his. And Paul's thorn in the side was one that he realized he didn't have to desire to get rid of it, that he could live with it and do just fine. Nobody's body in this life is perfect and nobody's body matches with their spiritual make up. This is what creates the conflict, the opposition (at least in part) for the test we face here. But we are not our body. The problem exists though when we fall in love with things that are carnal, including ourselves. If we love the carnal more than the spiritual, we are in trouble. One of Satan's tools is to make people feel defensive about their physical being, 'this is who I am', 'this is the way God made me', 'I was born this way' ... and this often times leads to the prideful statement of 'therefore this is the way I am supposed to be' and then they learn to be satisfied with the corruption they were given and give up the desire to be like God. Anything that pulls away from the desire to be like God leads to misery, including falling in love with the way one is during their probationary state no matter what the set of traits ... "I am a doctor" or "I am a professional football player" or "I am a scientist" or "I am a famous artist" or "I am a homosexual" etc. We shouldn't claim for our self any temporary stewardship we are given here, it doesn't belong to us, which includes the body and all of it's traits. We should really only love the idea of being a child of God, to continue on that pathway.

Creation is perfect but we were not talking about creation we were talking about corruption after the fall.

Genetic penetrance.

In the same way one can have a genetic cause for infertility. The process of genetics in this corrupted world, fallen from the paradisical world as created is that of corruption. Genes passed on to offspring are not identical copies or even 50% from one and 50% from the other parent. There are many genes that are directly passed but there is also mutation, duplication, inversion, deletion, chromosomal crossover etc etc. There is a certain rate of error, or in religious terms we say "corruption". We all have corrupted bodies as a part of the fall of Adam and Eve. Fortunately, the corruption will be removed with resurrection and be "restored" to its original state, the way God created it in the first place, one Man and one Woman. (At least that is what we are led to believe by the stories of creation, that there was only one copy of each created.)

Great example, thanks. I am glad you find it so easy but for most it is not so easy. In the example you gave the sister was wrapped up in her emotion of wanting it to fit, so much so that to her it was real. This is why in converting people to truth it is not easily done through logically explaining or empiricism - "see look, the shoe doesn't fit". Their heart has to be in the right place first before logic is seen correctly. Most people's epistemological view of truth doesn't include spiritual confirmation or even listening to spiritual influences and the false perception of the brain becomes truth even though the brain can make up sensual perception. In other words, the brain can and does lie to us every day. For example, there is a blind spot in your visual field that is not perceived because the brain fills in the information with presumed visual stimuli from surrounding neurons. That visual information is made up. etc. etc. Thanks.

Absolutely, but the difficulty is accessing that which is spiritual. Most people cannot distinguish pseudo-intellect from intelligence. They also cannot easily distinguish carnal from spiritual. But that is exactly the test we face here. The carnal mind is "pleasing" therefore convinces people that what they believe has to be true whereas spiritual influences are subtle and difficult to maintain, requiring a broken and contrite heart. Korihor explains it well; Alma 30 "53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great fcurse upon me." People sometimes believe that they know the truth because the words are "pleasing to the carnal mind". Failure to distinguish the "carnal mind" from the "spiritual mind" is where most of the problem lies. When people start to think they are one in the same then they have lost their ability to distinguish spiritual influences. This is described in the Bible as obscuration of the right eye. Zechariah 11:17 "17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened."

But Satan doesn't know the mind of God and likely doesn't care about truth either. What he cares about is making us miserable like himself. In other words he is after emotional effect. This is why he placed the temptation in the "heart" of the serpent, not the brain. Korihor, the anti-Christ assistant for example, led away the "hearts" of the saints. That is the focus. Satan's deception comes by way of what people would call learned people, like Korihor but the real goal is the heart so the speech is demeaning and negative and designed to stir emotional feelings of guilt and despair. On the surface, the world would call them intelligent but that is a guise of epistomologic deception. He is not acting logically at all, he is acting under his emotional driven anger. Satan doesn't care about smart versus not smart, intelligent versus dumb etc. As in 2 Nephi 28, he will "rage in the hearts of the children of men", he will "pacify" and flatter, he doesn't instruct or teach or enlighten. On the other hand God wants us to serve with all our heart might mind and strength. God cares about the mind but first is heart.

I don't think God is independent either. All the "lessons" given us as we try to become like Him suggest that he doesn't operate independently.

Ultimately, the differences are not really about facts and "doctrine". Remember that Satan knows nothing about the mind of God. His first attempts was placing the deception in the "heart" of the serpent. God's focus also is in the heart. He tells us that he doesn't see us as men do, but what is in the heart. In other scriptures we learn that what is in the heart is what determines what is produced, evil or good, so as a man speaketh. Conversion is one of a changing heart, not a changing intellect. Even Korihor finally realized the truth after a sign was given but Alma did not pray to have it reversed because he knew he would go back to telling the same lies. How is that possible? Because the thing that God is watching carefully in this life is what is in man's heart, not what they express in words or knowledge. Demonstrated by Korihor and many other examples it is possible to know the truth and have the truth in front of you, understanding it all on an intellectual level but not make it a part of you and not have the mighty change of heart. This is where the power of the priesthood and all the covenants assist. When a person starts to make that change of heart, there are priesthood ordinances that help a person maintain that change of heart more than what they can do on their own and that assistance is not in the form of learning more doctrine or having additional doctrine. I comes in things like the gift of the Holy Ghost and all the other contractually binding assistance from God that is not available to anyone who does not have those contractually binding ordinances and remains worthy of them. This is why I said a few posts back the shortsightedness of thinking that any other religion can get us there is the lack of testimony regarding the power of the Priesthood, God's order, and the value of assistance received from covenants that goes beyond simply having a title or passing through the gate of the particular covenant. These allow for the steps needed to change the heart. The desire of the heart is more important than the quantity of doctrine or the quantity of truth revealed while in this life. Satan from the beginning used that deception with Eve, don't you want to know all? The deception being that our ability to know all comes after the test of Faith and after the change of heart. Even God wants us to serve with all our heart might mind and strength but the heart comes first. Just doing the right thing by accident or by tradition or forced is not the test, it has to come with intent and purpose, which is included in what "heart" means.

We don't know the exact details of what were discussed in those councils in terms of our exact conditions, individually. But I am sure we had discussions in general about what would happen if we were born at a time without the gospel. We likely also had discussions about what would happen to those who died before the age of 8 or with diseases that would not allow for moral agency, etc. It may be more like a soldier enlisting in the Army. They are, for the most part, aware of the various possible circumstances they could be sent into and yet still sign up. I would have a hard time comprehending as well the possibility of us knowing every little detail of our life, like this person would be 5'8'' and have diabetes when they turn 65 and then develop arthritis and be assaulted with a knife when they were 70 and at the age of 80 die of a heart attack etc. As we do with several of our covenants/promises we make with our Father in Heaven, we agree to do all the things we are asked, whatever they may be. I think our loving Heavenly Father knows the best place for the test we face in this life and takes all the variables into account even the ones that we had no ability to really comprehend their significance before this life. That is why the decision to keep our first estate had to be done with Faith. The decision was not totally a logical, 'what is best' decision. Those that lacked faith followed Satan because of their weak trust in God's decision, it was too much of a risk. I like how President Holland puts it; "“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” Revelations 12 So the fact of the matter is investigators are not only hearing our testimony of Christ, but they are hearing echoes of other, earlier testimonies, including their own testimony of Him, for they were on the side of the faithful who kept their first estate and earned the privilege of a second estate. We must always remember that these investigators, every man, woman, and child, were among the valiant who once overcame Satan by the power of their testimony of Christ! So when they hear others bear that witness of Christ’s saving mission, it has a familiar feeling; it brings an echo of truth they themselves already know." They overcame the temptations of Satan in the premortal life by their "testimony of Christ" and they did it by not loving their "lives unto the death." In other words, they didn't love their life here that much, it didn't matter where they went, they didn't love it that much that they had to be picky about the details. They just wanted to come here by their faith in Christ. They, we all, knew that Christ would overcome everything.

I think your hang up might be the value of covenants. I would suggest working on gaining a testimony of what it means to have covenants and the value it brings to this life. Covenants are not just titles. They are not just gates to pass through then move onto the next. They are vehicles that allow a person to move to the next step. They are the method in which God can partner with us to achieve more than what we can do on our own. If I wanted to take a trip to Hawaii, it would be silly to think that I could get there by walking or riding a bike or by car. Sure, those things may get me closer to Hawaii but they can't take me all the way. Only if I use the correct vehicle can I get to Hawaii from where I am at right now. Similarly, the gospel along with it's Priesthood and associated keys for ordinances is a vehicle to allow for the upward movement that without it our development in that regard is severely limited. The other thing to keep in mind is that this life is not a test of knowing things. All of us here accepted the plan of God and believed in it from the beginning as we all kept our first estate. That part of the test is over for us, we all passed. We all accepted the concept intellectually. This life is a test of what is the desire of our heart, what we like and what we would like to be. If I desire to take a trip to South Dakota because that is what my religion tells me where salvation exists, metaphorically (hopefully no offense, my Dad is from South Dakota) and one develops a love for that concept while here, then that love or that desire will continue in the next life. So, even when they are presented with the idea of a trip to Hawaii, (metaphorically speaking) they have no desire for it or no taste for that kind of life because they have been taught and believe in another type of life. Think of it in terms of what it takes to be "converted". It is not just a knowledge but a desire and a way of being, a mighty change of heart. If there is no "conversion" process or no direction to be a Celestial being then one can never have that as the desire of their heart.

It may be said that way because the other parts were not yet established or divided. For example, the three parts may be; 1. Those that don't keep their first estate. 2. Those that keep their first estate but not their second. 3. Those that keep both their first and second estate. In that case, the only group that separated themselves from the rest was 1 out of 3 parts in the pre-mortal world. The other 2 parts have not yet distinguished themselves as the second estate opportunity had not yet taken place. The noble and great ones who showed exceedingly great faith may be more likely to be in group 3 but then again many are called but few are chosen. There are some that would have been known ahead of time that would fall into group 3 which are those that die before the age of 8 or here have bodies that don't allow for moral agency. In this kind of separation; group 1 would be those who followed Satan, group 2 would include both the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms and group 3 would be the Celestial Kingdom. Within those groups though, their are many levels and many "Mansions". To really "part" something though would entail something that is irreversible. To be cast out is irreversible and therefore can be parted out. Whether or not one keeps their first estate or their second estate is an irreversible fact that would not change in the eternities and therefore could be a dividing point between the hosts of heaven.

Traveler, I agree with the general concept of various levels of faith shown in the pre-mortal world but I think we have to be careful to not suggest that "did not exercise great faith" means that they showed no faith at all. I think there is a potential for people to misinterpret that statement even though that is not how you probably intended it. Just to attempt to clarify that .... those people simply showed less than "exceedingly great faith" and so they could have shown "great faith". This is a matter of semantics but the Chapter in Alma does not say that those people who were not forordained did not show any faith at all, they could have very well shown "great faith" and therefore did not show "exceedingly great faith". Certainly, anyone who kept their first estate, which is everyone here had to show some faith. President Ezra Taft Benson said; "I testify that all those who come into mortality accepted our Father’s plan. (See Abr. 3:26.) Having proved faithful in their first estate in heaven, they are now subject to the test of mortality in this second estate. That test entails doing all things whatsoever the Lord requires. (See Abr. 3:25.)" So, according to a prophet, everyone here has proven themselves faithful in the pre-mortal life. The chapter is about forordination, which was done "according to the foreknowledge of God" (Alma 13:3). So the forordination is based on the foreknowledge of God, based in the "exceeding" (=greater than average amount of faith) faithfulness thus far exhibited. In other words, the forordination is based in God's knowledge of how a certain man would act in this world if put in this situation, that they would have enough faith to accept and use that power. Whereas the ones that were not forordained "would reject the Spirit of God" (Alma 13:4) and so they were not given the forordination according to God's foreknowledge based in their thus far exhibited, presumably less than exceeding level of faith. The "would" is a future tense and again based in the foreknowledge of God. That when in this situation for which we are talking about, mortal existence, they "would" not show faith. It is not saying that they did not show faith at that point but that they would not in the future tense in the setting for which the chapter is talking about, the callings given here in this life. For that reason, they were not forordained to such callings.

Absolutely! You have described the difference between our spirit and body. Spiritually, our spirit knows a lot more than what is available to our thought process right now because of the veil. The veil might as well be the body itself as far as this goes. To listen to the spirit, our own spirit and the knowledge and testimony we all have proven by our acceptance and passing the first estate, requires putting off the carnal state we find ourselves in. In other words, by not listening to carnal influences the "beliefs" of the spirit, or the light of Christ is revealed. It is always there, it never went away, it is just that in this current condition of existing as a dual being both body and spirit, the body's influence is naturally more powerful than the spirit. This is exactly why the natural man is an enemy to God. The default thought pattern, influence and beliefs are one's that pull away from spirituality unless we do something about that. Unless we keep ourselves pure and humble the spiritual influences become mute to the point of not "computing God + Reality". This is what is described in the Bible as obscuration of the right eye. It all comes down to what aspect of one's dual being rules, the body or the spirit. I believe it to be very difficult to let the spirit rule, this is why it is called the still small voice and takes a lot of effort to hear its influences. But if nothing is done then one's ability to even hear the still small voice fades into zero influence. I tend to believe (this is not LDS gospel, just my own view) that for most of us, including myself, our thought patterns, actions, personality, memory, knowledge, mannerisms, traits etc. are mostly body and very little influenced by our spiritual self in this life. I would venture to say that our spiritual self shines through maybe less than 1% of what we call "our self", while here. The rest of it is purely brain and all the earthly things that influence it like you mentioned, science/media etc. The key, though, is to recognize the source and to make that 1% more influential in our daily lives and that takes constant effort.

Or the war of the Spirit and the Flesh. The physical nature of our current war is as a result of our physicality which is different than our previous state of spirit being. Now we are dual beings of both physical corrupted nature and hidden underneath is our pure spirit self. The war we face now is internal, not so external. The thing that limits freedom the most is giving in to our physical corrupted nature of the body. If we learn to love it's passions over spiritual ones then the battle is lost. This is a unique battle to this life, one that we will not have to face ever again .... 'come unto my rest' when the battle is over. With a perfected body the conflict will be over, until then the soldiers of the army of God fight against carnality. All of the "tyrannical oppressive governments", any of the drive to restrict freedom is as a result of having a fallen body down to the drive to eat food on fast Sunday or fall asleep during prayer as the apostles did. Even Jesus was tempted via carnal drives by Satan at the end of His 40 day fast. The battle will be won when our carnal natures are overcome.

Thanks for your comments and your patience. I want to be clear that I have never endorsed the idea that some truth can or should be ignored or discounted. To me, those type of words are too extreme. All I was talking about was this blanket approach to priority. I don't think that my Father in Heaven would be too pleased with me if, as a mother of 4 children, went back to school to earn yet another degree and in the process failed to support my husband and to assist my children in their growth and development. This life gives us choices to make as to where our efforts go first and foremost. That, again, is not a statement of discounting the truthfulness and the value of those truths that could have been learned at a University during that time. For me, though, the spirit guides me in telling me where to put my efforts now. I was offered a research position many years ago. I didn't take it, instead I decided to marry and have children. My faith and testimony tells me I did the right thing. I wouldn't give up my children for another title or research honor or even discovering a new treatment for Parkinson's disease (which was the offer for research I had back then). In one who does not categorize the value of truth, to the point of putting one thing above another, I could see how they may choose differently. If that is one's mindset that all truth is valuable, even more than service or other things that can be done in this life then their choices will be molded by that thought process. The verse in Moses says that the source of all truth is the comforter. I have never said anything against that and so I am not sure why that supports the argument one way or another. You also keep throwing in the word "willing" which was not my argument. I am focusing on "able" as opposed to willing. As stated above, I am not "able" to go back to work on another degree or work in research with young children. Would I be willing to do it if the Lord asked me too? Sure! Willing and able are not the same thing. In this world, time and ability create the need for prioritization. President Eyring said; "Our first priority should go to spiritual learning. For us, reading the scriptures would come before reading history books. Prayer would come before memorizing those Spanish verbs. A temple recommend would be worth more than standing first in our graduating class. But it is also clear that spiritual learning would not replace our drive for secular learning." and "To keep spiritual learning in its proper place, we will have to make some hard choices of how we use our time. But there should never be a conscious choice to let the spiritual become secondary. Never. That will lead to tragedy. Remember, you are interested in education, not just for mortal life but for eternal life. When you see that reality clearly, you will put spiritual learning first and yet not slight the secular learning. In fact, you will work harder at your secular learning than you would without that spiritual vision." Secular learning is secondary, I have never said it can be disregarded or should not be sought after but should be put in its proper order as President Eyring has said, otherwise it can lead to "tragedy". President Eyring also said; "The thirst for education can be a blessing or a curse, depending on our motives. If we continue to seek learning to serve God and His children better, it is a blessing of great worth. If we seek learning to exalt ourselves alone, it leads to selfishness and pride. That is one of the reasons we should always put spiritual learning first. And that is why the Church has placed institutes of religion across the earth wherever young members are gathered in sufficient numbers. Their spiritual education in the institute will shape the purpose and speed the process of their secular learning." And this is why I was saying that the way to make that prioritization is based in motives. The reason to learn is not to exalt one self!!! It should only be to serve the Lord. If that is true, then yes certain types of truths have value over others. An area of study that cannot or does not have the right motives attached to it cannot be as valuable as one that does. This is why I do not study how to make weapons of mass destruction or 30 ways to kill someone with a knife or research new deadly poisons etc. etc. I have allowed for that distinction in my posts, you cannot make that distinction with your idea that all truth is as valuable to us in this life and should be sought after with as much zeal as any other truth no matter the motive or intent.

I would agree with your assessment here if you took the word "all" out of there. I don't think Jesus made any reference to "all" which is the point that I am making. The last part of that sentence is definitely true; "to consider things beyond what we think may be important (or necessary for salvation) at the time." For you to agree with that later part of the statement though contradicts what you said before that "all" truth is equal in its value. If that were the case it would make no difference how Martha spent her time. In your assessment, from what I can gather, what Martha is doing versus Mary makes no difference so long as the focus is on something that is true. Clearly, it does matter. And because it matters we should choose the better part. And if it matters, then there must be some hierarchy of value of information and truth to which we value. If that is the case then "all" truth should not be sought after with equal vigor during this life .... we have to be somewhat choosy and best guided by the spirit. So long as one is guided by the spirit then we are 'considering things beyond what we think may be important at the time.' We can 'consider things beyond what we think may be important at the time' without having to desire "all" truth now. If I construct a definition of truth based in faithfully (without having full knowledge or need for full knowledge) being guided by the spirit, how is that any different than your claim to one's ability to "construct" the truth? What does your "construct" of the truth entail that I have not been including? The only thing I can find is that I have been saying that we don't have to focus on "all" the truth there possibly is (i.e. - being all knowing) while in mortality to have confidence that we will one day gain full knowledge at some point. The criteria for things worthwhile are not 'true versus false' but things that are praiseworthy and of good report. Of course, things that are praiseworthy and of good report are true, but that is not the defining factor that makes them worthwhile in this life. Fact learning is not the goal of this life. I think the admonition of Paul is more correct than the criteria you are proposing. By being inclusive in your terminology you make no attempt to support the notion that we should be selective of the things we learn. I think we should seek after things that are of "good report" and not just "truthful" things. I don't need to spend my time learning how to construct weapons of mass destruction for example as I have many other better 'truthful' topics to ponder and study with my short time on Earth. Whereas you are suggesting it wouldn't matter the topic by using the word "all" truth.

You are the only one making an attempt to describe what is truth versus partial truths or not. I have not made that attempt. I was only commenting on your suggestion that all truth is equally as important to us at the moment no matter the category. Again, even Jesus suggested there are some things we shouldn't worry or put our efforts in, but those things were not lies or deceptions, they were truths still. Cleaning the house may be less important than listening to the teachings of Christ when He visits, for example. Cleaning the house is not a lie or a partial truth. Luke 10 " 38 ¶Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word. 40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her." You are trying to suggest that there is no "good part" even though Jesus clearly uses the term. If all truth and right is equally right, then there is no such thing as a "good part". I think it was David O. Mackay, could have been another prophet that said the gospel is to make bad men good and good men better. Well, if it to make "good men better" then clearly there is an in between state that is not black or white. Your suggestion that everything should and can be categorized in such a way, now, in our current state of knowledge is not realistic at all. I would let God make that dividing cut, that separation of the wheat from the tares in such a clearly defined way as we do not know all the variables now. That is not a statement for the dislike of the dividing, it will happen, just not now. Right now it is a mixed state, both body and spirit, both corrupt and in-corrupt. If we are here to deal with the "real thing" then for you what is the purpose of the veil? I disagree with your notion that our test in life and our purpose in life is to deal with the "real thing". We are supposed to deal with the partial truths and the deceptions. Even Nephi was okay with not knowing all. He understood that that is not the quest of this life. How can dealing with the "real thing" and performing a test of faith co-exist. You would have to leave some room for the thing you don't think has to happen which is to learn line upon line, part upon part and allow for a time where the whole is not possible or obtainable. That is not a process of devaluing all truth. I think you misjudge my saying such things. It is only to know that we can only run so fast and we are only given a certain set of stewardship and not all. It would be wrong to say 'I am not going to deal with the 5 talents given unless I have all the talents possible'. We each are given a portion, and there was a reason for that, it has to do with the test we face at the moment which is not a test that would require knowing all and dealing with the "real thing". It is a test of the desire of the heart whether the whole truth or partial truths are obtained is immaterial to that test of the desire of the heart. The whole truth and having all pure truths are not necessary for the test. We can still have the test with only a set of the truths. And, again, that is not a statement of devaluing all the truth or desiring to one day have all the truth it is simply an understanding of our current situation and what is valuable at the moment. Having all truth by itself would not be saving. I know that to be a fact, otherwise this life would not be a necessary step for some of us. There has to be a component of becoming like God that requires a certain purpose, motivation and desire of the heart. Those things can occur irregardless of the amount of truth or partial truths. Part of our test is to see if we will do the right things in the setting of being behind a veil. So, again, I would ask, why was a veil placed if we are supposed to only deal with the "real thing" and not supposed to deal with counterfeits or partial truths?