Seminarysnoozer

This is what you put on an earlier post; ""Innocent" can have at least two meanings here; in both cases, the answer as I understand it is "No, Adam and Eve were not innocent before their birth." If by "innocent" you mean "without understanding of good and evil", this is clearly not the case. Adam and Eve were faithful and valiant children of God, and the qualities of faithfulness and valiance presuppose the ability to discriminate good and evil and choose the former. If by "innocent" you mean "without any sin or blemish", this is unlikely to be the case. Jesus is the only sinless being; the rest of us make less than optimal decisions. Could this be the case in premortality, in the presence of the Father? Consider that the third part of heaven's host openly rebelled against the Father. This shows unequivocally that we could choose the evil or the good. Consider also D&C 93:38:" With my bold added. By that statement it sounded like you were saying that it is possible in the premortal world to be with blemish or sin (or whatever the term you want to use) is possible by way of making less than optimal decisions. If one, for example, in the premortal world was not as valiant as he/she could have been, what would you call that? A blemish, a sin, or that person just being themselves, or what? If we made "less than optimal decisions" in the premortal world, could we have still kept our first estate? I think by keeping our first estate, all of us in this world, have made optimal decisions. So, again, what "evil" did I experience, or you experience in the premortal world? I don't see evidence of it. I already agree that when we came to the fork in the road in which the council in heaven took place and agency was given to choose to follow God's plan or not, while in the planning stages of this plan, that those who verbalized their intentions against God's plan were taken out of the plan and voided their contract of their first estate. That act was with evil intentions, from the character of that spirit, expressing their nature. I agree with that. But, what evil did the rest of us experience to know the difference between good and evil in the premortal world?

I think I was postulating more about the differences in value between knowing something will work versus actually making it happen and knowing that it has been done.

okay, now I see it. Had to stare at it for 5 minutes.

Then the purpose of the original question itself is difficult to grasp. Mortal life itself is what challenges faith. That is one of the purposes of this life, to see if we will have enough faith to do what God asks us to do. So, life challenges faith. Specifically, if the question is what is it that is attacking faith, then the parable of the sower summerizes that in terms of what Jesus explained are the "birds" - which is hearing Satan, "sun" - affliction and persecution burn the seeds that have no root, and "thorns" - choke the seed, which is cares of this world, riches, lusts etc. That about covers all the things that challenge faith. Mark 4:15 - 20 As to the edit; that is probably a topic for a different thread, sorry I introduced it here but I think there is a difference between our spirits developing personal traits, likes and dislikes, whether a person is noble, valiant or not, as in "spiritual maturity" is different than maturing "spirituality". Developing "spirituality", on the other hand, can only occur while in a state of choosing between our dual being state of both physical and spiritual. The ability to put off the natural man and choose our spiritual nature is called spirituality. The spiritual nature, though, of any person was developed, as far as we could before this life. Dallin H. Oaks; "Our understanding of life begins with a council in heaven. There the spirit children of God were taught his eternal plan for their destiny. We had progressed as far as we could without a physical body and an experience in mortality." Otherwise, one would have to explain how children who die before the age of 8 or those that are born with conditions like trisomy 21 are being accepted into the Celestial Kingdom while being an immature spirit. They aren't, they matured like all of us before this life.

....or the face of the devil in a mushroom cloud. Just kidding. I thought the same thing about those markings.

I wonder if your question could be reworded to say 'Can we speak from the mind about the things we know in our hearts to be true?' And the answer to that is, sure. But to really communicate with someone on a spiritual level it does take passion, it does take speaking from the heart. The spirit communicates with spirit when that happens. This, of course, is difficult to do on a computer. But often times as people read certain things, the Holy spirit can testify to the truth without the person intellectually reasoning and receiving understanding in that way. More often though, secular discussions only result in secular understanding at best.

But Vort was saying that we were not innocent while in the premortal world, that only Jesus was without blemish there even. Is that what you believe too? Vort's comment; "If by "innocent" you mean "without any sin or blemish", this is unlikely to be the case. Jesus is the only sinless being; the rest of us make less than optimal decisions." Vort, in my interpretation of those statements - correct me if I am wrong, is saying that "less than optimal decisions" is equivalent to sin. So, if we did not get 100% on all our exams, even though we may have gotten an 'A', so to speak, we sinned. I do not hold this view. I don't think sinless means being 100% perfect in all things. I think it means living up to the measure of one's creation and not moving away from a course that leads to a fullness of glory. If one is holding onto the iron rod, even if they are not to the end of the iron rod, that is not the same as those wandering in other pathways which could be described as sin. As we all kept our first estate here, none of us have been taken off the course to exaltation at that point that I can tell. In other words, Vort is saying that both Adam and Eve had sinned before they were even put in the garden by the mere fact that they weren't Jesus, or like Jesus as He is the only sinless being (besides God). But I would suppose that would include the Holy Ghost as a being who has sinned as well? I don't comprehend that.

I think that is what Applepansy gave, an example of how that happens. And the key word used there is "choice". When one chooses evil things in this life there is a process used metaphorically in the scriptures many ways, such as obscuration of the right eye, becoming stiffnecked, hardening of the heart, having desires of the flesh etc that turns into having bad 'barren' soil. The first step in that process though is a choice made. It is internal, it is not external in any way except the fact that the choice is given via external factors. But, hardening of the heart and obscuration of the right eye does not occur without the person wanting to make that choice in that direction. When one person 'white knuckles' the steering wheel on the freeway and the another person sings a song on the radio while driving, as happy as could be, the differences are not attributed to the external factor of being on the freeway. They are attributed to the internal way in which each individual reacts to those external factors. Likewise, the ultimate fork in the road to whether something challenges faith or not is dependent on the internalization of those external factors. That is the point. The soil is the spiritual make up of that person. How do we get spiritual features? I don't know exactly, I don't think anyone really knows, we were born spiritually that way and we had a chance to mature those features before coming here. Our spiritual character is refined here, but it is what it is when we enter as spiritual adults.

The point is, that there is something qualitatively different about "seeing" something in the future versus knowing that something has been 'brought to pass', that is has been realized. The knowledge that something has been done, completed or brought to pass I think is a vital part of what we understand the plan of happiness to be. There is less happiness, in other words, from 'potential or future acts' then from acts accomplished or realized. If that is true, then God experiences the passage of time because that is where His glory lies; 'to bring to pass...'. When God 'sees' a future act, can He say that 'He knows it has been done' or can He only say that 'He knows it will be done'? I think there is a qualitative difference between the two.

Maybe because they don't have olfactory nerves that bind chemicals in the air from which the brain interprets those signals as smells.

Haha, that is the same complaint, essentially, Cain had. That is sad. This is the correct attitude; "The Apostle Paul wrote, “In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you” (1 Thes. 5:18). The prophet Alma taught, “When thou risest in the morning let thy heart be full of thanks unto God” (Alma 37:37). And in modern revelation the Lord declared that “he who receiveth all things with thankfulness shall be made glorious; and the things of this earth shall be added unto him, even an hundred fold” (D&C 78:19)." And; "The Lord taught the prophet Moroni, “I give unto men weakness that they may be humble,” and then promised that “if they humble themselves … and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them” (Ether 12:27). In the midst of the persecutions the Latter-day Saints were suffering in Missouri, the Lord gave a similar teaching and promise: “Verily I say unto you my friends, fear not, let your hearts be comforted; yea, rejoice evermore, and in everything give thanks; … and all things wherewith you have been afflicted shall work together for your good” (D&C 98:1, 3). And to Joseph Smith in the afflictions of Liberty Jail, the Lord said, “Know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good” (D&C 122:7). " It is the lack of humility which leads to a lack of thankfulness about the situation that is the problem, not "laziness".

I agree with this answer. Thanks. I think we will find that everyone who is in the Celestial Kingdom will all be sealed to each other, through adoption, through the work done in the temple for the dead and through being born under the covenant. The sealing of the contract relates to a special relationship that Celestial people have. It is one where glory is shared (or inherited) and the success of one person affects another. The way glory and happiness is eternal is a system in which it is not just dependent on personal progress. By the power of the holy sealing we can be part of this eternal family where successes of one family member are felt by all. We get to experience this in a small way on Earth. When one of my children does well in school, for example, there is a feeling of happiness that we share. Why is that? It is because of our family bond. Even if the family member ends up in another kingdom, the one who makes it into the Celestial kingdom by way of the traits that are part of the God's way of life allows that person to share in the success of even the person who is in a lower Kingdom. But, if a person shows interest in selfish achievement then they express a lack of desire to be part of such a love-thy-neighbor-as-thy-self system and will not find pleasure and happiness in the success of a family bond to a certain degree.

Yes, and keep in mind that how the brain is wired is not a direct reflection of the spiritual self. We are given temporary physical passions in this life in the form of our body, which includes hormones and the wiring of the hypothalamus and frontal lobes etc. This does not match how we are spiritually "wired" in everyone at least to some degree. There are many physical traits, likely, that belong to this world only, for example sleep wake patterns. If a person, for example, has a strong hper2 gene that relates to the amount of protein a person releases in the suprachiasmatic nucleus in the hypothalamus then they will have a tendency to be a "night owl". That goes directly against the teaching of early to bed early to rise. So, now they have a genetic influence against a teaching that they have to battle in a bigger way than most people. There are many examples of this including all sorts of addictive tendencies, for alcohol, video games, sexual addictions etc. The struggle is in the fact that our spiritual personality does not match the body's "personality". That is true for everyone but in different ways. I doubt my spiritual self craved donuts on Fast Sunday before I got here. Where does that craving come from, not my spirit. When an individual is born with an extra chromosome 21 or 18 we know for sure that is not a reflection of the spiritual identity of that individual. I think that same notion would apply to any genetic driven trait that undergoes mutation and alteration since the day Adam fell.

So, does "overcome" mean in the past tense, or to maintain the ability to constantly overcome something that is there chronically? I think that is the question. If I get hungry during fast Sunday, as an example, but I overcome that through my faith and I do fast on Fast Sunday every month, will I still get hungry on a hypothetical fast Sunday (without discussing whether there will be a fast sunday or not in heaven) in the next life? If lustful thought pops into my head, because of this body I have that has certain animalistic drives but I overcome it in this life, I master that, so I don't act on it and I keep the laws of chastity, will I still have those thoughts pop into my head after I get my perfected, resurrected body? What does, come unto my rest mean? Is there really no rest from this battle. Obviously, it doesn't mean no work but I thought it meant to not have to battle the forces of evil any longer. There are still forces of evil to battle after this life that I could potentially fail with? Or is the test over when it is over? To me this is to have faith in Christ. Either we believe He is our Savior that actually saves us from this situation or we just believe that He points the way and we save ourselves, eventually, by learning the skills to overcome things ourselves. To me, the gospel says to believe that Christ overcomes all for us. Does He really or does He not?

I agree. There is a greater sense of entitlement than at least what I remember growing up.

I think one of the reasons Jesus acted on those that had sufficient faith to receive such acts is that if Jesus removed all challenges from this life in anybody then it kind of defeats the purpose of this life. We are supposed to be faced with challenges. God will never give us a challenge that we cannot overcome to the extent that He wants us to overcome them. But as with Paul, he received confirmation that he should live with the "thorn in the flesh". All of us have a "thorn in the flesh". Wanting to eat on fast Sunday, is a "thorn in the flesh". Wanting to sleep instead of studying the scriptures during early morning seminary was my "thorn in the flesh". I am not judging whether your sister's "thorn" needed to be removed or not, just saying that sometimes it doesn't need to be removed, that it is there for specific challenges on that person or people around them. I can't make that specific judgment, just wanted you to be aware of that possibility. In other words, just because it is there doesn't mean it should be cast out with Priesthood authority. Maybe like Jayana gave as a possibility, the challenge exists to strengthen certain family ties. Sometimes the purpose of the "thorn" remains unknown for a long time and may not even be realized until after this life.

I like this quote by Keith Howick talking about the parable of the sower; "The parable taught clearly where the responsibility lay with regard to the kingdom of God and the reception of the gospel. It was not with the sower and it was not in the seed - it was in the 'soil,' the heart of man." - E. Keith Howick, The Parables of Jesus The Messiah (pg. 30) I guess this thread is talking about the seeds or the sower, which is fine, but that is not the most important thing, it is what is in the heart that determines what happens to the faith. The soil it lands in is what makes it a challenge or not. Why is it that when we drive down the highway, one person is white-knuckling the steering wheel while the next car over the person is singing a song on the radio? They are both in the same situation. The situation isn't the cause for the reaction, then. What challenges faith is only a challenge because of the reaction to the topic, not the topic itself.

I agree, the most challenging aspect of faith is the thing that most directly opposes it which is our body, our mind. Our spiritual self contends with the passions of the flesh which include doubt, the desire to prove the truth of concepts over having faith, relying on our own knowledge all comes from the way our brain is wired. The mortal, corrupted body is our biggest challenge, which is our weakness and where our self-betrayals come from. Our spirits have a quiet voice, a subtle influence, that requires a lot of effort to hear and maintain. The challenge is to keep trying to make the spirit's influence louder to overcome the default force which is the natural man, the mind, the desires of the flesh. If no effort is given the natural man takes over and over time this makes it harder and harder to hear the spirit's influence. People that have let that process blind their "right eye" over time, by choice, have frequent experiences that easily overcome their faith.

This is a great question. I think this is the root of the plan for happiness that we begin to understand the value of this by having certain responsibilities in this life, such as family. I believe the key to understanding this is to understand the value that comes from sharing the joy of other peoples success. If one loves their neighbor as much as themselves, then when the neighbor does well, we feel of their joy. It is like when my son does well on an exam in school, there is a sense of joy that I get from that even though I am not the one who took the test. When a person is selfish or self centered though, they cannot experience that joy. The joy of experiencing happiness with other peoples success is reinforced by covenants, this is why we are a covenant people. It is a way for God to participate, actively in our success. Even though God has achieved all, He can still expand His glory through this shared success, this is what makes it exponential endless. This is how an increasing "population" of souls sealed to Him, increases His glory. One important aspect of this is the fact that we can share glory. Any idea that glory is personal, that it only belongs to one person, goes against the whole concept of what glory is. If we are fortunate to inherit the Kingdom of God, we would inherit all. We are not going to have our individual bank accounts, so to speak. This is a shared glory, and to what degree we share, will determine what Kingdom we end up in. This is why we are told to mourn with those that mourn. love our neighbor, raise a family etc. These are all traits that are important to develop to be in a Kingdom where glory is shared, where we are one. The variable method, which is limited in glory, is like the stars as one star differs from another.

Overcome by whom? is the most important question. It is false, in my opinion, to think that we are to overcome them by ourselves. Jesus will do His job, we don't have to worry about Him overcoming all. Have faith in that. I agree it will have "physical desires" (all the desires that come from the body that are not evil) but I doubt it will have carnal desires, or desires of the flesh. Galatians 5:17-21 " 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be aled of the Spirit, ye are not under the blaw. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." And D&C 76; " 50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just— 51 They are they who received the atestimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given— 52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; 53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true." .... " 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. 60 And they shall overcome all things. 61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet." ... " 69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood. 70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical." In other words, it is through our mediator Jesus that we obtain perfect bodies, overcoming all. "Let no man glory in man" meaning, we were never meant to overcome these things on our own. I don't understand why so many, even on this forum believe that we were meant to overcome the things we face in this life on our own. It is only through the grace of our Lord, through our faith in Him, then we "overcome all" and will not have to contend with the passions of the flesh. I try not to turn it into the "glory of man" by suggesting that somehow we can overcome this by ourselves, with some kind of learned skill. It is by faith in Christ that it is done. If a person has "perfect" faith then their body at resurrection will also be perfect, overcoming all.

I see. I agree with that. But, I would throw in there that this condition is temporary, it is a probationary state. The conditions and the aspects of what each person has to overcome is unique to that person and is not a linear reflection of anything, that we can outwardly see, to our premortal achievements. The strong spirit might be the one born with a hundred medical problems and the weak one born into the perfect looking body and a rich family and no health problems, for example. But it is all temporary and God takes into account those variables in the end. Paul's "thorn in the flesh" is just that, a thorn in the flesh, not in the spirit, of which I doubt he is suffering from right now.

Innocent, meaning we wouldn't owe God anything if we take advantage of Christ's atonement by the time we reach our final judgement. Just like before we came here, we were innocent in that regard, we were not responsible for any debt as we didn't accrue any debt, in that sense. By coming here, we took on debt, but remain innocent to that debt to God by Christ's atonement as our mediator for that debt. At least that's how I read that.

I didn't think I was comparing the two, how am I doing that? Maybe, it is along the lines of thinking that our spirit has changed also? I would say by taking on the mortal body, our spirit doesn't change unless we choose to let it. If someone has Tourette's syndrome for example, and it blurts out a bunch of profanities, is it the spirit or the body that is doing that? Are you trying to say that by taking on that body the spirit of the person has changed and would also blurt out a bunch of profanities? I don't think so. I can say that because I believe the nature of the spirit and the nature of the body are two different things and are combined in this life but remain different. When we receive our perfected body, then they are one in the same. Also, otherwise, how is the spirit willing but the body weak sometimes? If they were one in the same they would both be weak at the same time or both be strong. It is possible because they are different, in this life.

If you (meaning anyone, not just 'you' Traveler) understand that God is capable of manipulating space time (whatever that made up concept is) do you think that He could receive the glory that comes from an act before the act is done. For example, has God already received the glory that comes from all the earth bound souls who will some day receive Eternal Life? Or, does it actually have to be brought to pass? I think there are some laws that are universal and cannot be altered or they stop being laws even if there is mastery within the bounds of the law.

I agree. There are likely more not married than married if you count all those that died before the age of 8 and all those that lived in this life with diseases such as Trisomy 21. That number probably outnumbers all the members of the church in all dispensations, at least to this point.