Seminarysnoozer

I think that the "change" that occurs during this life is almost a different topic than a change in our spiritual self from before this life to after this life. For one, I don't think any of us can really remember all that we knew and learned before this life, unless some of you are walking around without a veil. As we lift the veil of a fallen existence from our eyes then we see a bit of what our spiritual self is like. I wouldn't call that process a "change" in who we are, just a revelation of who we are. I am not sure how one in this life could measure a change in one's spirit being (not change in spirituality, that is something else) if one doesn't really have a measure of how they were before. If we are just measuring the change from fallen to partially fallen, then there is a change within those two points. Most of the quotes above are referring to that observable change in spirituality, which is how much we pay attention to spiritual influences over carnal ones. That doesn't necessarily mean there was a change in the nature of the spiritual influences themselves, just how much we listen to them. I am not sure how one would separate those two, the relative attention paid to spiritual influences over carnal versus an actual change in the influences given by one's spirit. Most of the things in life that we call "change" start out with making correct decisions in the first place. As we pay attention to our spiritual influences we can detect them more readily with time and they seem to become different in that sense but they are just stronger. How do you make a "change" spiritually? By first choosing the right, by praying, going to church, reading the scriptures, avoiding evil influences. So what came first, the chicken or the egg, the choosing of the right or the perceived "change" that comes with choosing the right?

Thanks for the thoughts, they are good ones! I agree with your summary. I think this life is a time for refinement and discovery about who we really are and why we do the things we do. It is to develop an appreciation for our Father in Heaven and His way so we can receive the things He wants to give us. As an example, I have a teenage daughter who is spoiled (hope she doesn't read this). She has difficulty in appreciating the value of gifts we give as she has not had to earn money for herself yet. The other day I bought her an IPAD cover for $99.00 and there was no thank you, thanks mom or nothing. It was as if she just expected me to buy it for her, that it was my duty as a good mom. To curb this self centered, ungrateful direction we are trying to work on ways for her to develop an appreciation of the value of these things she has by having her earn her own money and take care of what she has. Similarly, do we really have full capacity to love someone else unless we are actively involved in their advancement and achievements. This life affords us the opportunity to learn the value of such things, to learn what it means to love thy neighbor as thy self. To know what it means to have family. God wants to give us everything but only when we show that we are capable of handling what is given. When we show we can handle small stewardship we can be given greater stewardship. So, our appreciation of the nature of God can dramatically change in this life. And then our capacity for happiness enlarges. I suppose it all depends on whether one calls growth and enlargement change. Or does "change" have to mean a change in direction?

Satan did not really want the glory of the Father, he wanted something that was not possible, that didn't exist. He wanted to have what the Father had without going through the steps that are required. He didn't want to give of himself, sacrifice, be obedient, give the glory to someone else. And the degree to which we do the same lowers our sights as to what our maximum happiness is. One of the key principles in the plan of happiness, in my opinion, is to learn the importance of finding happiness in the success of others. Like the example that you gave, I think it is a misconception that happiness is based in self fulfillment, or personal achievement. It is more based in an ideal, a state of mind, or like what we like to call, the desires of one's heart. The desire of one's heart is not what one wants to get for themselves one day but more related to where that person finds joy. Does a person find joy in self achievement or do they find joy in giving of themselves? These are characteristics that are intrinsic to our spiritual make up. There is a spectrum of where one finds joy that ranges from selfish desires to Christ-like love. Where God decides we are on that spectrum will determine what Kingdom we end up in, not how much we have achieved in a given amount of time. Just like the young prince that approached Jesus and said I have done all the things you ask, what more do you want me to do? And Jesus said sell all you have and follow me. This was a direct test of that spectrum, self centered joy versus joy obtained by serving and loving others. It was obvious where that young man fell on the spectrum. If a person finds themselves on that spectrum of a made up, 25% self centered happiness and 75% Christ-like desires of the heart, why do you think they would be more happy in an environment where everyone is 100% Christ-like in where they find their happiness? They would only be 75% happy in that setting because that is not where they find their happiness, they get 25% of it through self centered acts. Their maximum happiness is found in a situation where they can live a 75% Christ like life and 25% self centered life. The desires of one's heart have less to do with the "what", like wanting to become a master pianist. They have to do more with the "why". If one wants to become a master pianist to be in the service of others and does it, that is more of a Celestial being character trait then one who becomes a master pianist out of prideful, self centered reasons. .... and I don't think the "why" we do things is going to change much if any after this life.

What? What knee will not bend? Who will not believe in Christ in the end? Who will not understand in the end? Those that are cast out of the whole system, only. I don't think we are talking about those people. I believe all individuals of all three glories will all "desire to stop" evil as they are all Kingdoms of glory. If one does not want to stop evil despite their knowledge of it, then they will be out of the system. The degree to which they follow varies, but they all follow. Do you think people in the Telestial Kingdom will be rebellious to God or just not as valiant in their following? The people in the Telestial Kingdom are not worse off than they were before this existence. They are not people who were once followers, keepers of their first estate, and then rebellious to remain in their rebellion. There is no glory for the rebellious soul. They are still seekers of happiness not intrinsically evil. Paul says, fight a good fight and endure to the end. We don't have to win the fight, just fight a good fight. We don't have to overcome corruption because Christ overcomes it for us, and therefore takes it away. The test is in how we fight the fight, which is the desire of our heart, not whether we actually become a master of the earthly desires or not in this life. D&C 76 " 81 And again, we asaw the glory of the btelestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the cglory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the atestimony of Jesus. 83 These are they who adeny not the Holy Spirit. 84 These are they who are thrust down to ahell. 85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the adevil until the blast resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the cLamb, shall have finished his work." (bold added) So, they are still redeemed.

Because all of us will have the opportunity to progress within the boundaries of our designated eternal pathways. As a metaphoric example, a doctor can keep learning all of his life about the field of medicine but through that study never become a lawyer. And a lawyer can learn all of his life about his trade and never become a doctor. Etc. There is one pathway that is all learning and all knowing but there is only one way to get there and to be on that path. I don't think everyone is on that same path after they have made choices to designate other pathways. After passing certain forks in the road, i.e. - the first estate and the second estate, we are not going to come upon those forks in the road again. It is good to know that those "forks in the road" though are not decided by chance or mistake, they are based in 100% truth and exactness. The road we end up on is the one our spiritual self desires. Maybe in the beginning we all had that potential, just as much as Lucifer had that potential but by making certain choices took himself off that pathway by his own desire and choice. He wasn't forced off the pathway, even though he might like to think he was, that was the result of those choices.

I think that if you are to look at the track that leads to Godhood, there is only one track and then you could describe people on various points of the track or like Joseph Smith describes it, on different rungs of the ladder. But I don't think everyone is on that ladder and to force them on a ladder they don't want to be on makes it so they cannot be on the "ladder". A requirement to be on the "ladder" to Godhead is our desire to do it. That is why this life becomes a screening process for that desire, does one really really, at all costs want to be on that ladder or not. If they say by there actions and choices that they would not want to be on that ladder, then why would God try to change their spiritual make up to be a carbon copy of His own, in terms of their desire. If God could make spiritual clones of all of us, in terms of our spiritual selves, He would have already done that, before we came here. Obviously, God does not have control over the variability of our spiritual make up, some are more noble and valiant than others and that is just the way it is. Our spiritual intelligence, features, is unchangeable for God but it can be developed and matured and be made to reach the fullness of its potential. And that is the work of God to bring that to pass. There are several examples of various pathways. I think Lehi's dream is a good example. If someone doesn't want to hold onto the iron rod, they won't be forced to do that in the next life. Is there only one pathway in the next life? If you are not a doctor and I asked you to go perform open heart surgery without any guidance and the life of that person is in your hands, you would probably say, I don't want to do that, I would feel uncomfortable doing that. If, then I said, well go study how to be a heart surgeon and lets try this again in a few decades, you might say, no, I don't want to learn how to do that. Likewise, a person in the Terrestrial Kingdom would not feel comfortable with the duties and responsibilities of those found in the Celestial Kingdom, that would not make that person happy, just miserable. The Terrestrial individual doesn't have the capability of having 100% faith in Christ, they don't want to give of themselves 100% of the time, they may not like the idea of a large family unit or the idea of a shared inheritance, etc.. Maybe they are okay with giving some things but not all, and want to take some credit for their works but not give all glory to God, etc. Those aspects of their being (plus others) is what God is showing and bringing to pass by this existence.

In my opinion, because we have a spirit and a body, those are the two estates. Unless we will have more layers than that, I don't see the purpose of having other "estates".

? If they don't receive it, they don't want it. In D&C it says they will receive a "fullness" according to each Kingdom. What does "fullness" mean to you? For that specific person, it is their fullness, it is their limit based in the desire of their heart, at least the potential of their growth within that kingdom will result in the fullness of their happiness. I am agreeing with the idea that there are different levels for each person.

I disagree, fleshy desires come from flesh. Corruption stems from corruption. The corrupted desire may continue until all is accounted for but at that point that Christ has paid in full, the atonement is complete then what corruption lingers? Unless we are given a corrupted body at resurrection then we will not be exposed to continued corruption. I think that Alma 34 is misinterpreted in that people think that their corrupted earthly traits are somehow continued onto the next life. The true desires of our heart, meaning our spiritual tendencies that only God can really see after taking into account all the variables of this life, that is what continues in resurrection. It is similar to how we were before this life, there were some more valiant than others. Likewise, upon resurrection there are some more valiant than others, some more glorious than others but we are not resurrected into corruption. We put off the corruption with death and resurrection. If someone, as an example, has obsessive compulsive personality and they feel like they have to wash their hands every time someone shakes their hand, do you think in the next life they will have that trait? That they will have a "desire" to wash their hands in that setting? Similarly, if one has a desire to drink alcohol because they have the gene that rewards that behavior stronger than most, do you think that desire will continue as part of the resurrected body? Or how about the person who is shy because the motor parts of their brain doesn't keep up with the language areas and so they stutter causing a desire to avoid talking with people and speaking in front of large groups? Will that person continue to have a desire to not speak in front of large groups upon resurrection? Will the person in paradise in the spirit world whose body desired alcohol but they never gave into that desire still desire alcohol while in the spirit world? If you say no, then how is that possible? Don't we continue with the desires we had here? Yes, but only the desires of the heart. Only God knows really what the desires of the heart are for any individual. I mostly disagree with your middle sentence. This life is not to "become" something. It is more so to reveal who we really are when the choice is placed before us. To see if we will do the things we are asked that in word we said we would. Revealing the choice doesn't make us a different person. We are who we always were, and have shown it by our choices when placed in that situation. How well we gave up the flesh to choose spiritual things is based in who we are spiritually, based in the valiancy of our lives before this one. We don't "become" different people by living this life any more than you would tell yourself that I wasn't really me when I was 5 years old. In this life, we may call it a growing experience because we are placed behind the veil of forgetfulness, so it seems that we learn these things for the first time. God knows though, just how much is given in this life to grade how much is expected from that to show that we have true and righteous desires that would meet with those of whatever Kingdom we are assigned.

I completely agree. The desires of the heart, in the end, outweigh any secular understanding of doctrine and the desires of the heart outweigh any going-through-the-motions because everyone else in the family is doing it. Only God can plug in all the variables of what we have been given in this life to know based on our choices how well we have done. This idea also is important in realizing one shouldn't leave the church because some are not living it's principles perfectly. I have seen even members of my family say they won't go because someone falls short of what they say they are trying to do. I am glad God doesn't judge that way.

I agree with most everything you said in this post. I am curious what you meant by this statement though. Why do you think one would have to learn how to master desires and impulses? Practice for what purpose? Are you implying that even with a perfected body there will be impulses that need to be mastered? Our spirits are not intrinsically impulsive, so where does that impulsiveness come from? The only impulsiveness I know about is from the corrupted, mortal body, with imperfect thoughts and wiring. I don't understand this idea that we would have to master a situation that we will never have to face again. I don't see our spirit self as a 'wild horse' that could go one way one day and then another way in the future. We matured in the presence of our Heavenly Father as spirits. We told Him what way we wanted to go and who we were by keeping our first estate. So, if it is not the spirit self, then would you be implying that the resurrected body is a 'wild horse' that has to be mastered? Could a perfected body, for example, make one think about inappropriate animalistic sexual attraction that we would have to quickly expel from our thoughts? I don't think we will face those kinds of challenges again, that is just part of the test here, in the mortal realm. For some reason, people think that we have to learn mastery over all worldly things. We don't have to, that is why we have a Savior who overcame all for us. It is not required for us to have the same level of mastery our Savior did to make it into the Celestial Kingdom. If that was required then we wouldn't need a Savior, we would just save ourselves or not. I think our spirit driven desires can be magnified or developed but I really doubt that they flip flip or are impulsive in any way. So, they wouldn't need to be mastered. They are what they are. The human mind flip flops and is impulsive and therefore requires mastery during this existence to show the level of worthiness we would have for future responsibilities .... thank goodness we never have to have that kind of mind after this life.

I guess the biggest issue I have with the view of "Kingdom hopping" is the idea that a person who is placed in the Terrestrial or the Telestial Kingdom is left with some kind of wanting, that they have some kind of regret that they are in the position they are put in. That, to me, goes against the idea that all Kingdoms are Kingdoms of full happiness for those people. That does not seem like a Kingdom of happiness to me, if a person goes about their business saying to themselves, 'I wish I were in the other Kingdom'. I understand that this would be a hard concept to understand for probably most of us who are on this forum who hunger and thirst after knowledge. But, whether a person 'hungers and thirsts" for Celestial life is based in their characteristics of that spirit, revealed and supported by their works here, from which God does not get it wrong at the Final Judgement. If that is who they are, there is no reason to say that they will someday long to be something else. If one wants to go to be a Lawyer, for example, one prepares and studies and works to pass the exams necessary to apply to Law school and move on from there. If they fail the exam, they study some more and see if they can pass but their desire did not change, who they are inside did not change. If a person does not want to be a Lawyer, why would anyone insist that that person take the entrance exams over and over again until they pass it? Likewise, if we are applying to the school of becoming like God, why would God force that on someone who really doesn't have that desire, to go all the way? Unless, they somehow changed that desire. But the test of desires of the heart is what this life is about. We are showing what we desire and I don't think God misinterprets that at the Final Judgement.

Thanks for your response. Where can I learn more about this idea that people in the Telestial Kingdom are not completely healed? I cannot find that doctrine in the scriptures or in the manuals of the church. At the point of resurrection, all is healed and accounted for. At the moment of resurrection, we are well above the point from which we left God's presence in terms of our progression. I have more often heard that a person is placed in a Kingdom of which they will be the most happy, that is the Kingdom they want to be in, by way of their character and choices. I am also not sure why you think our future is just based on our performance here, like the example you gave of 75 years. Obviously, there is plenty of information to decide where a soul goes who only lives for one day in this world, that they can go to the Celestial Kingdom. Or a soul who is born with Down's syndrome etc. Our final judgement is based on how we kept our first estate as well, which is a reflection of our spiritual self. Our spiritual maturity will not change in terms of our characteristics. We are who we are, here we are showing who we are by making the choices we make. The changes that we make here are because we are fallen and so there is room to show a change in that setting. Like someone being thrown in the deep end of the pool, how far will the person swim to the surface on their own, is the test, but we started at the surface. When the test is over, one doesn't find themselves at the bottom of the pool. Then, it becomes obvious who is allowed in the pool or not. When we show that we are good stewards over a little responsibility in this situation then we prove our ability to handle greater responsibility in the next life. We are not given little responsibility here because that is all that we could handle, it is because it is a test. When a person enters the Telestial Kingdom, they are placed there, in that state of glory because that is what they want. That individual wants to be in that type of setting based in their character, who they are, their true self that God can see a lot better than any of us can describe. God will not put us in a Kingdom that we don't want to be in. If a person is in the Telestial Kingdom because they want to be there, what possible thing could they hear or understand that would make them change course and say, wait, "God got it wrong, this is not who I really am, I want to be something else"???? Could it be some information they didn't really quite understand? No! we all accepted the plan and understood it by accepting it in the first estate. Is it because they didn't have an opportunity to express their choice? No! because the Spirit World takes care of that lack of opportunity if there is one. Then, what could God, possibly miss about that person's character traits that at first He would say this person would be the most possible happy in this Kingdom and then later change His mind??

To me "next life" begins after the completion of the second estate. For those in the spirit world the second estate is not completed yet. I don't see Christ "paying" for anything beyond what occurred as a result of the Fall. Paradise is a place and called that way because it is a rest from the labors of this world, a rest from the effect of the Fall. After receiving our glorified body and it's matching Kingdom, the body that will never separate from our spirit again to be anything different that correlates with a specific Kingdom of glory, then we are done with the second estate just as much as none of us will go back to redo the first estate. If one believes that the immortal connection of body and spirit after the resurrection could somehow change to another body, then that would probably have to be done via another mediator, another atonement, to pay for something that we couldn't do on our own. Who and where and how is that price paid? You (not you, specifically, but anyone who takes this stance) are suggesting that Christ' atonement is also, possibly for the price to advance from the Terrestrial state to the Celestial state, for example, after permanent, never-to-be-separated again resurrection? That is not part of any LDS teaching. If there was such an advancement possible then it would not be based in overcoming sin as there is no sin in the Terrestrial kingdom, it would only be based in the works of that individual. So, then we would be suggesting advancement by works alone. ... Unless there is another opportunity for sin, which cannot be the case without a corrupted body.

If everybody, or most everybody has "eternal increase" in the long run, then there is no meaning to the idea that there is a limit to the increase for some. What you are suggesting is that there really is no limit for anybody, I don't think that fits with our gospel principles of what happens in the three Kingdoms. Pre-second estate completion, there is room for change, which is what those quotes are related to (I take it that way). He states, after the decrease, "returning to his mother earth" so this is talking about the body and the state of the body, not to be glorified in increase.

What future action that occurs in the next will Christ atone for? I think that is what he/she is getting at. Is it possible to sin in the next life? I do not think so. So, when we say that the atonement is eternal, the effect of the atonement is eternal in relation to what happens in this existence, between our first and second estate completion time. If progression is possible from one kingdom to the next then I would assume you would also believe that regression is also possible. Could a person fall from the Terrestrial to the Telestial kingdom? How? For me, the power and purpose of repentance also ties into the opportunity or the agency to sin. Spirit prison will be a short time for those who haven't quite made their choice final for various reasons, but once they make their choice, the choice is done. Without another opportunity to sin again, their would be no reason to be pulled out of the hole (the debt we have from sin) of sin again. ... unless you think we are going to be stepping in holes again after this life. My hope is for rest. Not rest of labors, because we will keep doing God's work, but rest from sin, rest from temptations that lead to sin, rest from this corrupted, mortal world. The second coming and the events that follow will result in the extermination of sin, it will be no more.

I think the only way a person can achieve "maximum joy" is when finding joy in the success of others is learned. I think this is why God's plan involves eternal family, a connection so strong as we can feel joy when others are successful. We learn that truth by having family in this life and belonging to a church group that gives us similar experiences.

You seem to easily separate love and grace from the recipient of the love and grace. If God is God because of His love and grace then He "needs" someone to give it to.

I think the reason it is a fundamental principle of Mormonism is because it is a fundamental principle of happiness and therefore of God. People often struggle with the concept of an all-knowing, all-powerful God having any interest in humanity. Unless one understands the idea that the way happiness can be eternal and endless is when we take pleasure in the success of others. If our pleasure was only confined to our own success it would be limited. By "sharing" in the success of others our happiness is multiplied. To love our neighbor as ourselves, the idea of friendship and service and family are all concepts to teach us this fundamental concept that the only way to have eternal glory and happiness is to be tied into the success of others through the sealing of our relationships. This is why it is sooooo backward to think that God could exist by himself. Or to think that in order to be spiritual one has to retreat to a mountain top somewhere and live a celibate life. Satan wanted to be alone, he wanted to separate himself from that connection and be independent. He still wants others to strive for that independent status with the idea that that is possible. I think members of our own church sometimes get mixed up with the idea that we all have to individually do everything God has done to be like God and miss this concept of "shared" glory. If the glory is inheritable, by definition it can be shared. But it can only be shared when the individuals involved are "one" which is why friendship, love, family are such important principles to our gospel.

The "biological reaction" more likely is to deny the spiritual not to create a spiritual experience. The carnal influence over the spirit tends to dampen spiritual influences. When studied, looking at PET scans etc, one would not be able to separate those that have spiritual tendencies have it because there is less of a dampening effect on the spirit versus the thought originating from neuronal circuits. We all have the dampening effect by having a corrupted mortal body. Some may have less dampening than others as we don't all have the same body. And so some are "naturally" more spiritual than others as they don't have to fight off the disruptive effect of the body so strongly. Understanding the test is to determine whether we follow carnal things versus spiritual things, one can appreciate their would have to be influences from both sides. The reason this is hard to appreciate where this is coming from is because both sides of the issue come from you, the carnal you and the spiritual you, we are dual beings. The gospel is there to help one work that out. It takes a lifetime to work that out for most. The divisions come from people relying on their own interpretations and not being directed from God. The "truth" would have to have a mechanism of continued direction to avoid being pulled away from any given truth that is corrupted by our thought process and carnal interpretation. I am sure you have heard the phrase, the natural man is an enemy to God. The wiring of the brain, i.e. - the natural man, pulls away from spiritual things if not managed properly. To manage it properly is to go to church, feel the spirit, pray, ponder, have faith and water constantly the seed of faith, then you will know. The seed of faith once had that does not get watered and cared for soon dies. ...then you would have to start the process over again.

Rare is probably less than 1% of the population. But even if a person fits that description, they should never feel guilty about that because that is a condition that the person did not put upon themselves. We all have non-perfect bodies that we have to deal with and we do the best we can. I think if you have the spirit of fasting which is to ignore the carnal, corrupted promptings of the body as best one can to give up the things of this world in service of someone else then that "fast" will be accepted. Don't feel guilty at all Anne, I can tell your heart is in the right place. That is what God judges.

It is the Children's Songbook, so these phrases get hard-wired in our brains at an early age.

How do you know what the "Mormon way" is other than looking at Jesus Christ. As "Mormons" follow Jesus Christ than your description of being "not infallible" would have to apply to Christ. Of course, no "Mormon" is perfect but you weren't talking about any individual, you were talking about the "way". The "way" is perfect but none of us are. There was only one that was perfect. However, it is true that by their fruits you can know of it's truth. You have yet to explain the "fruits" of the idea of Singularity. Are there any?

Can you explain what you mean by "needs nothing". I think this can be taken in two ways of a spectrum between 1. He is lacking nothing, to 2. He can exist by Himself. Unfortunately, I think many people interpret "needs nothing" to mean that He can somehow exist by himself. I believe, He is lacking nothing but He does need His past, He needs a family, He needs glory which is based in serving and helping others, etc. to maintain the status of Eternal glory and happiness. His God glory is based in being an Heavenly Father. One cannot be a Father by themselves.

This is the point at which Joseph Smith found himself. He believed the Bible and followed it's direction. Reread the Joseph Smith story and then your question will be answered. ... He found there was something more.