Seminarysnoozer

We are to be saved from our fallen state though. We are not saved from our spiritual state. That would not make sense. The atonement is nothing without the fall. When I say 'mature', which is how gospel principles puts it, I am suggesting there is no more spiritual growth when the spirit is by itself. Again, if you think there could be more growth from a mortal state then you are suggesting the idea of reincarnation, which we don't believe in. Upon resurrection are body will not die again. There can be spiritual growth from a fallen state when the body is combined with the spirit. But one has to specify what state the spirit is in to discuss this. You keep jumping to quotes about our current state, I don't disagree with that. I am just saying that our spirit alone, before coming here, learned all it could and prepared all it could. There is no room for further preparation, it did all it could. And so our spiritual natures will not change. David O. McKay taught; "Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit: “And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.] Man’s body, therefore, is but the tabernacle in which his spirit dwells. Too many, far too many, are prone to regard the body as the man, and consequently to direct their efforts to the gratifying of the body’s pleasures, its appetites, its desires, its passions. Too few recognize that the real man is an immortal spirit, which [is] “intelligence or the light of truth,” [see D&C 93:29] animated as an individual entity before the body was begotten, and that this spiritual entity with all its distinguishing traits will continue after the body ceases to respond to its earthly environment. Said the Savior: “I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:28.) and "Man’s earthly existence is but a test as to whether he will concentrate his efforts, his mind, his soul, upon things which contribute to the comfort and gratification of his physical nature, or whether he will make as his life’s pursuit the acquisition of spiritual qualities. “Every noble impulse, every unselfish expression of love; every brave suffering for the right; every surrender of self to something higher than self; every loyalty to an ideal; every unselfish devotion to principle; every helpfulness to humanity; every act of self-control; every fine courage of the soul, undefeated by pretense or policy, but by being, doing, and living of good for the very good’s sake—that is spirituality.” 8 Generally there is in man a divinity which strives to push him onward and upward. We believe that this power within him is the spirit that comes from God. Man lived before he came to this earth, and he is here now to strive to perfect the spirit within. At sometime in his life, every man is conscious of a desire to come in touch with the Infinite. His spirit reaches out for God. This sense of feeling is universal, and all men ought to be, in deepest truth, engaged in the same great work—the search for and the development of spiritual peace and freedom. 9 The choice is given, whether we live in the physical world as animals, or whether we use what earth offers us as a means of living in the spiritual world that will lead us back into the presence of God." What I mean by 'true nature' is our level of spirituality, how valiant we are that has to be shown, in some, this way, in a test situation, behind the veil of our carnal body. As David O. Mckay puts it whether we live in the physical world as animals or whether we use what earth offers us as a means of living in the spiritual world." How much one chooses spirituality over physical carnality is one's "true nature".

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that the Apostasy occurred because of Paul's inability to get everyone on the same page. I was more trying to say that the Apostasy was in the works because of these divisions or maybe the divisions reflected the movement towards apostasy is another way of saying that. As opposed to the idea that there are different sets of rules for different people. It wasn't from the top down, it was internal going outward. There wasn't much Paul could do as it was already in the cards, the apostasy was going to happen no matter what Paul did. The Apostles job was to provide the testament and spread the word which they did. The Greek word apostasia means something more along the lines of political rebellion and revolution. The apostasy was an internal issue. It was part of that prophesy given in Matthew 24; " 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." "Offended" coming from the Greek word skandalizo, meaning, in the theological sense, giving up of one's faith or fall into sin, and "many" shall do it. In other words, the apostasy is caused by those that believe in Christ start to not believe in Christ. Not believing in Christ would include thinking that the law of Moses is still necessary. Thus, the events described in Acts 15, in part amongst many other divisions and worldly influences leads to the apostasy. And John 2:18-19; " 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." "The last time" = the apostasy is coming and "they went out from us" meaning they started to adopt their own set of rules and beliefs for themselves but that really isn't from the apostles - "but they were not of us". The church didn't direct different teachings for different people, straight is the gait.

I wasn't trying to say that was the only struggle. Was just going with the example you gave. ... and again, was just saying it was a sign of the beginning, i.e. - not completed. I also don't see that Acts 15 addresses the issue of Jewish-Christians living the law of Moses, just that the gentiles didn't have to live the law of Moses but that is probably a topic for another thread.

Thus, the beginning of the apostasy. As Mark E. Petersen says (paraphrasing) the apostles were taken away because the apostasy had begun, not the other way around. And as Marion G. Romney says; "The Galatian saints were a small minority surrounded mostly by heathens and a few Jewish Christians who were called Judaizers because, although they professed to belief in Christ, they still insisted that the Judean law be observed. The pressures of these pseudo-Christians had induced the Galatians to conform to the requirements of “the law” notwithstanding the fact that Paul had taught them that Christ had fulfilled the law. Upon hearing of their apostasy, Paul wrote his epistle. His purpose was to convince them, if he could, that the gospel of Jesus Christ was the one and only way to salvation. He sought to strengthen them against being seduced and corrupted by the false teachings to which they were exposed." Guess he couldn't convince them, so the church starts to crumble.

I am talking about one's true nature, their spiritual self. Here we are dual beings, part carnal human body with carnal influences (the town drunk) and part spirit. I am only referring to one's true nature, not the temporary testing situation nature. In those people, their true natures are shown by their actions just like the rest of us. I cannot, nor anyone, judge what change took place in their true nature (their spiritual self) unless one somehow has the ability to see how they were before this life. Everyone here, though, chose God's plan, so our spirits by nature are all good. If you are looking at the change that takes place from a fallen state to one of spiritual harmony, that is something different than what I was talking about. Wayward children is also an example of the fallen state those souls are in during this testing situation that doesn't fully show their spiritual self. I don't have the power to see or measure where they are spiritually. It is only at judgement that God can take into account all those variables of what earthly "thorns in the flesh", earthly challenges, carnal natures, "talents" given, etc. play a role in where a person starts in this life and finishes. A change of heart refers to following carnal natures first then listening to one's spiritual influences over those carnal influences. But the spirit never changed its "true nature" it was just revealed by that "change of heart". That is what I meant by proof. To prove, to satisfy the eternal laws of justice requiring proof. (Not proving my theory - not sure where you got that from) Don't get me wrong, I think a person's spiritual nature can change in this life but not by much. That, to me, is more along the lines of refinement not a change of their true nature, we all accepted God's plan before coming here, we all kept our first estate. Now we are tested with the second estate. My question to you about Sherri Dew was not whether she was sustained by you but a question of your opinion about the statement, way to dodge the question. If you don't want it from her then I'll give it to you from Abraham; chapter 3, "25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." Is that a better source for you as to the purpose of this life?

Yes, but then that supports the idea that we don't need to have another chance to prove our true natures. For those people there was enough proven before they came here. They don't need the chance to prove it. That supports the idea that the decision of where we are assigned is mostly done, this is just the final cut, so to speak. God being a just God allows us to prove our nature if it is not so obvious, for some. Of course, there are many chosen for specific callings that come to fulfill those assignments that would have otherwise been like those babies. I think that supports what I am saying that our true natures won't change much, if any, from our already matured spiritual selves, that God is very familiar with. Our faithful or not so faithful nature will not change after Kingdom assignment and therefore there would be no reason to change Kingdoms afterward. Then you would disagree with Sherri Dew's statement; "This life is a test, this is only a test."?

I think "expected" is a little strong, don't you think it was more like 'permitted'? ... not to take away from your other comments, cause I agree with everything else you say here about christian teaching.

Thanks for your response. The answer is because the test is not as a "spirit" alone. The test is a test of faith which requires being mortal and absent from God. In Kingdom assignment we are not under the influences of a veil and carnal natures that allow for a test. Unless one thinks that a person could die again, i.e. be born into mortality again, to die. But because the spirit has matured, when put into the test it's influence would be all it could be at the time of testing. The responses and choices would be the same even if the spirit waited a few more thousand years. Gospel Principles says: "Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies. We would need to leave our physical bodies at death and reunite with them in the Resurrection. Then we would receive immortal bodies like that of our Heavenly Father. If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our Heavenly Father has received. (See D&C 93:30–34.)" The test requires mortality. After resurrection and assignment to a kingdom we will never be mortal again, therefore we will never be tested again. I think that is pretty clear. I don't think that is unknown.

Hypothetical example - Korihor.

The doctrine is as simple as knowing that this life is a chance to prove ourselves. We were sent here to prove ourselves. If one believes in that doctrine then it is obvious that that is what this life is for. If this life is not for proving ourselves then possibly there would be chances to prove ourselves somewhere else and make a change. Is this life a test or is it not? Putting that together with knowing that we matured as spirits before coming here then what more is there to change? There is nothing more that a person is going to change about themselves in the next life. If you (or anyone) believe that we have fully matured as spirits before this life, living thousands and thousands of years in the presence of God, what possibly more could change about our true natures that would change our Kingdom designation. There was no more growth or development in the pre-mortal existence that would have made our choices here different if we were to re-live this life. If, in other words, we were to run the program over again a thousand times, it would come out with the same results every time, taking into account all the variables, which God can do. To God, this isn't like he has to redo the experiment 1000 times to make sure the outcome is correct. I think the doctrine is solid in those three ideas, that this life is a test and that we were fully matured as spirits before coming here and that God takes into account all the variables. If one believes in the pre-mortal life and what happened there and understands the purpose of this life and believes in a just God, what more doctrine do we need? The only way to say that there is a chance to switch Kingdoms later is to believe that either we weren't yet mature enough or that this life really wasn't a test, just a dry run or that God is not just. What other variable could be missing to not make that permanent designation?

I think the people that are saying "yes" are also saying that God will take all variables into consideration. If you are saying there are no variables and you are just referring to the absolute case of someone being fully accountable and having full knowledge and they still decide to not keep their covenants, then absolutely no, they will not have a chance to repent later. The problem is you, nor anyone is going to be able to look at someone and say for certain that that individual has full knowledge and claim to know all of their variables and situation. I think the people that say "yes" are just expressing the fact that God will take all those variables that are unknown to us into account. Someone, to us, that may seem like they have all their ducks in a row may not really for whatever reason, maybe their hippocampus starts to degenerate at a young age and so they can't remember everything they learned in their youth and so they make mistakes towards the end of their life. Or maybe they were involved in an accident and destroy part of their basal frontal lobes and so they become dissinhibited. Or they have bilateral herpes encephalitis and their frontal temporal lobes are injured and they get Kluver Bucy syndrome so they are hypersexual. etc. etc. The only way to 'check your grade' so to speak is someone who has had their calling and election made sure. Shy of that, we don't know our grade until all the variables have been accounted for. We cannot understand all the variables right now.

I tend to think along the same lines. As dual beings, both body and spirit, those things that strengthen the outer man (body, "self", outward man, natural man, etc.) are part of the church of the devil as he has power over carnal things. Things that strengthen the spirit (our real self, inward man, the "heart") are related to the Church of Christ. If a person is not actively participating in the Church of Christ, the natural man maintains control and the person as a whole (outer man winning over inner man) belongs to the church of the devil. Over time a person can change the outer man's tendency for carnal living by following the gospel and therefore becoming "one" to some degree. When we weaken the outward man the inward man is strengthened. This is what a member of Christ' church experiences; 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 "16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

I think the 'doctrinal reason' comes first with understanding the purpose of this life. It is a test, a test of the desires of one's heart that is revealed when in this situation. The situation being, behind a veil and having carnal influences. If there was another way to reveal those desires and prove them then we wouldn't have to come here. So, obviously this is the only way to have that opportunity. It can't be done as a spirit alone, it has to be done in this dual being situation, part spirit, part carnal-corrupted body self, behind the veil situation. Once, that is understood fully, then one can appreciate why it has to be done in this situation alone. The test isn't a test of comprehension or logical thinking, that could have, and in essence was done before this life, part of the first estate, now, to keep our second estate we have to prove our true natures which is only revealed in this setting. (At least, most of us have to prove that. Some don't, like those that die before the age of 8, etc.) In the spirit world, with one's spirit freshly corrupted by carnal influences which carnal influences remain in their effect on the spirit, if a person hasn't had the chance to receive the gospel the test is extended for a short period of time, otherwise the test is over at death. Like Sheri Dew says, "This life is a test, it is only a test."

He created the body. If one limits their view to this alone than it becomes a hang up to understanding our true potential. He created the body, then breathed life into it, introduced the spirit. Realize that you are mostly focusing on the temporary form of our existence which is the fallen, lower form of a corrupted body but leaving out the spirit. The body itself has limited potential, it just serves the purpose of this life, a temporary state.

I think that is because it is easier to accept things that affect everyone in a non-discriminatory way than a personal, individualized, unique to that person intrusion. Electrons etc, is just the playing field all of us are on whereas Satan's influences would be discriminatory.

Thanks for your response. In the first paragraph you say that God does not require the existence of anything or anyone else to be God (paraphrasing). But in the second paragraph you say that God is love and requires someone to love to meet that requirement. Those two things seem to contradict each other. I don't think I was saying that sharing is part of the process of becoming like God as much as I was trying to say that by definition God is sharing. Add sharing plus love and that is charity, which is the pure love of our Savior. Charity cannot exist in a vacuum. No being can be a charitable being by themselves. To have charity requires a need for charity. God cannot be charitable without having someone who needs His charity. That is the source of His glory. I am not entirely sure of what you mean by "we will be 'like' God, but we will never 'be' God". I don't believe that I could ever replace God, so in that sense we do not believe that we could "be" God. That is not part of LDS belief, as far as I know. But, if a being becomes 100% "like" God what else would you call them but a God. Why do you think you have a limitation to your potential? If all, one day, is shared with you from God, what part of the eternal - never a beginning, never an end, part of what He has to share with you does He not share? If He shares all with any being, then they also become without a beginning and without an end, never changing. That is included in the concept of "sharing", or do you think the eternities will not be shared? If sharing is tied into God's glory, then why would He limit what He shares? The more He can share with beings that become like Him, the greater His glory. So, He offers to become "one" with Him, whole with him, not a part, or fraction. Your potential is whole, not a fraction. One other difference ... We are not completely "creatures" as you put it, but see this is the part that is hard to talk about with someone who does not believe we are dual beings. My carnal body is created but my spirit is a child of God, so as a whole we are not creatures, just my body is. Putting off the carnal gets rid of the creature part. Only Jesus could do that well he was still mortal in this life the rest of us have to wait for death. The process of dying and obtaining a resurrected, perfected body takes that away as well ... but that is a different topic altogether.

I think the "yea or nay" response was shown on the spectrum of valiant versus rebellious linear spectrum. I think a person could be anywhere on that spectrum but I think there are only two ends of the spectrum, valiant or rebellious. In the pre-mortal life it was probably a lot more obvious where our loyalties lie and to what degree and it wasn't masked by the indecision we have caused by the mortal mind. Looking at the situation through our mortal eyes and the limited information we have now it seems like it would be a confusing choice but God knows our mind then just like He knows it now and only those that were fully mature, spiritually made the choice. This wasn't a choice made by any spirits that were not spiritually mature enough to make it. We had progressed as far as we could without taking the next step, there was no further progression that could take place for all the pre-mortal spirits. It is not like they could come back at a latter time to make the decision after they thought about it some more, we all had done all the thinking and maturing we could to that point. If any spirit was not fully matured, I don't think they would have been given the choice, so there doesn't need to be a third choice. .... in my opinion.

Hypothetically for you, if you were to believe that we existed as spirit children before this life, would you still call us human? You would probably answer that you don't believe that we existed as spirit children before mortal life. ... but then this kind of conversation is hard to have. Being a God is directly tied into sharing. Sharing is part of the process of becoming like God. Read the story of the prodigal son, what part of the father's belongings did the son that stayed not have? He had all that the father had. I don't think we can be a God by ourselves, that was Satan's idea. That is like saying I want to be an American by myself. Being a God, is not an individual thing. There is no God that exists by himself, and we don't believe that. To be a God He has to share. So, God cannot have divine life on His own either for the same reasons you are saying we can't have divine life on our own.

Thanks, I didn't know if it meant there is something shooting off the fire or had some other meaning. ... I take it this is all metaphoric anyways.

What is "flaming fire" as opposed to regular fire?

I think the answer is in the question. If a person wanted to stay in God's presence then they would choose God's plan which is to come here. If a person didn't want to stay in God's presence they would follow Satan. Maybe, use the metaphor of going to college, but knowing that God dwells in an eternal "college". The question you are trying to ask is like saying, can a person go to college but not be part of the college? No, there is no 'online' college available. ... that was Satan's idea, to try to do it without God but there is no other way.

That is wrong. The Holy Ghost speaks via the spirit. Satan does not have communication with our spirit, directly. He has only been given temporary domain over things of this world, carnal things. Our body is in contact with our spirit, so that is his only access to our spirit, unless we let him or invite him.

Satan did physically alter the brain by his temptations in the Garden of Eden. He secondarily caused a carnal corruption of the brain and our whole body for that matter. If the soul, (I am assuming you are meaning our spirit self, cause some call the soul the combination of the body and spirit) is the origin of thought, then we would remember all that we learned in the pre-mortal life. Spontaneous thought and random what-if thoughts can be altered by affecting frontal lobe inputs. This seems to be the problem with schizophrenia and even bipolar disorder, manic episodes. I think the spirit can react to those brain generated thoughts, like I think you are saying but I would say that most thoughts originate from the brain's wiring. I'll give one example, hunger. Do you think your spirit originates the thought, 'I wonder what I am going to have for dinner tonight?" The thought about food starts very young when the veil is thin, so-to-speak. Even with a thin veil the body's generated thoughts overpower the spirit. I don't think Satan talks to our spirit. He talks to our body which then can overcome spiritual influence in our dual being. But, that "talking" could certainly just be the corrupt state of our bodies, the "natural man" which is an enemy to God, the natural inputs that came about from the Fall, from Satan's influence. This could also be magnified by the degradation of the body, further away from the original creation over time by what happens with genetic mutation etc., thus increasing his carnal influences over time, greater in the later days. God had to clean up that natural pulling away once, in Noah's day and again now our carnal influence pulls away from spiritual influences stronger over time. The process of living in this world is a downward slope, man does not become more like God every day, he moves away. So, in that sense Satan put the ball in motion to change chemistry of the brain over time, I am sure not specifically with that intent.

Thanks for your responses because it is helping me flesh out my beliefs on this topic. I think here you hit on one of the aspects of this topic that I am not sure about. I think I understand it but it just doesn't seem right to me. That is, you seem to easily equate our successes as parents here as part of our "eternal increase". I guess I have boxed "eternal increase" to what happens when a person is in the Celestial Kingdom and starts to form their own eternal family. I look at everyone here on earth, including my own children as brothers and sisters as we are all children of our Heavenly Parents. That arrangement, to me, surpasses in importance the earthly family arrangements as I believe these family arrangements are opportunities to gain parenting skills and experience for something bigger. If we are faithful in small things we will be given bigger things. The bigger thing, to me, is the pre-mortal family we were a part of and will go back to until we are mature enough to move on to our own individual "eternal increase" families. I hope my earthly children go on to form their own "eternal increases" as I wish for all my brothers and sisters. My real children though, will be my spiritual children. I think that will be the source of our real posterity and eternal increase. If it is locked into the finite arrangements of this life, I am not seeing how that is "eternal increase". I look at our successes here, including our expressed desire for eternal family as part of the test. It is a way to express our desire to eventually have spiritual offspring and show that we are capable of that responsibility. If a spirit in the pre-mortal life already showed that desire and capability in whatever way God has to assess that potential, then I think that person wouldn't have to show or develop that trait here, maybe those are the ones with trisomy 21, for example. If they satisfied that requirement, passed the test already, I don't see why they would have to do it again in some other time frame, in some other sphere. This is a stepping stone to move onward to bigger things. This life is not the final arrangement of the family make up. Of course, the "eternal family" can continue for those who want that and I am sure we will have continued relationships with our children, parents etc. but again I have a hard time seeing how a relationship with my great great great great grandson of this world would be any different than my relationship with your great great great great grandson if we are all first brothers and sisters, spiritually. If I take a test in school and the question sets up a scenario, the scenario is temporary. If the test asks, 'Jack and Jill travel in a train going 45 miles per hour, how far will they have traveled in three and a half hours?" I don't expect to find Jack and Jill traveling in a train going 45 miles per hour in real life. The person sitting next to me taking the test might have a different question, "Bill and Jennifer travel on a train going 30 miles per hour, how far will they have traveled in 5 hours?" That doesn't mean that in the real world I will only travel with people named Jack and Jill and in the real world the person sitting next to me will only travel with Bill and Jennifer. ... to some degree, maybe not that exclusively, I look at this life similarly, we are in a testing situation, the scenarios are unique and individual but are temporary. We are not establishing permanent roots here, we are in the nursery of our development and will be transplanted to permanent ground later to grow our tree. This life is an arranged existence that had to be different than our usual life in that we have the veil and a carnal body. I haven't produced any spiritual children or posterity in this life, this is just a role playing test run for bigger responsibilities. My earth children will never be my spiritual children because they are my spiritual brothers and sisters. sorry ... went on with that.

Thanks again. I guess I didn't realize that our children and our descendents are part of our "kingdom" in the next life. I will have to try to understand that better. I didn't consider that the divisions that are formed here would continue divided in the next life. The inherited blessings, if there is such a thing, I suppose there is in some ways, I have always considered to be a part of this life only. I don't see how bloodline/DNA differences would continue into the next life. I am not sure why such differences would exist. My bias (maybe in error) is to believe that our current genetic arrangement and associated ancestry is done for the benefit of our earthly, mortal and testing condition. In a non-earth, non-mortal, non-testing setting, I am not sure how "peculiar ministries" are relevant, at least to what degree. To me, this is like saying, because I sat next to two girls in Kindergarten class I will be sitting next to two girls in every class of my education. I tend to believe the DNA/bloodline, era in which one arrives on the earth, family in which a person is put into etc. are for this state. What we do with this state of being will determine where we are in the eternities but I think a lot of those conditions are temporary as this life is temporary. Otherwise, one would have to argue that what we have here in terms of conditions but also genetics is based in how good or not so valiant a person is in the previous life and a reflection of their future rewards. It is not a linear relationship, we know that by what we believe will happen to those that are born with trisomy 21, for example. That person with trisomy 21 has no children, no descendents and therefore no posterity in this life. That is a reflection of their reward in the next life? I don't think so. As an example, if a person is born as a product of rape and they themselves cannot have children in this life, I cannot even begin to grasp the idea that that situation is a reflection of their future family in the eternities. I think there are many similar examples of earthly situations that cannot reflect the eternal arrangements of relationships .... rape, slavery, wars, diseases that might affect the number of children a person can have, etc.