Jason_J

Actually, there indeed have been more than one schism. For one, in addition to the Orthodox/Catholic schism in 1054 AD, there is of course the schism of the Oriental Orthodox (Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, etc) in the 5th Century AD, accepting only the first 3 Ecumenical Councils, and rejecting the Council of Chalcedon.

Perhaps you should reread my post. Nowhere did I state or imply that everything has to be taught in the Bible, nor that the Bible is the sole authority (certainly an odd assertion for a Latter-day Saint to make in the first place). Latter-day Saints are not Bible-only, nor do we derive our beliefs from study of the Bible, in contrast to various Protestant churches. What I actually did ask was for a reference to the earliest usage of the word "saint" to mean "A "saint" means only that the person is in heaven.", and that the Bible, for one (i.e. for one example), does not contain that usage. Thanks. However, what I am really interested in (since Latter-day Saints already have a belief that saints are all members of Christ's Church throughout time, in this life and the next, united as members of His Body) is a reference for the earliest usage of saint that "means only that the person is in heaven". Also, as a Latter-day Saint, I personally like this statement on the OrthodoxWiki: "In the Holy Scripture, the word saint is used to refer to those who have been set apart for the service of God, consecrated for his purposes. As such, all members of the Church are called saints, regardless of their personal holiness or sinlessness. It is still appropriate to use the term in this way. " But yes, whenever you have time. Good night.

Actually that is incorrect. Latter-day Saints use the word "saint" in the same way that it is used in the Bible, to simply mean a member of Christ's Church (whether on this earth or not). " A "saint" means only that the person is in heaven.", as you state, doesn't even seem to comport with Catholic teaching on the "communion of saints" (and I'd be interested in reading the earliest sources for your stated definition, since it isn't contained in the Biblical record for one), which includes the church militant, church penitent, and church triumphant. .

Are we talking about the same thing? The Miracle of Lanciano? That occurred around 700 AD, in the 8th century AD, not in 1574 AD. Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano Lanciano - Eucharistic Miracle Eucharistic Miracles Miracle of Lanciano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Etc. What happened in 1574 AD was the first study of the flesh, not the actual miracle. And yes, I do think that it is important to the note the time period of the miracle. Firstly, I'm not sure I'm following your understanding of the chain of events here. Perhaps a link would be helpful. From what I have read, the actual miracle occurred in 700 AD, while the first testing of the flesh occurred in 1574 AD. So no, they would not have to have "stuck a chunk of it in the Monstrance just before the scientists arrived" (were there Monstrances around in 700 AD?), since the scientists didn't "arrive" until hundreds of years later. Secondly, as shown in my previous link, there are studies that demonstrate the preservation of serum proteins in blood samples (also, the blood is coagulated, isn't it?). Thirdly, what do you mean that the piece of flesh comprises an entire heart, complete in its essential structure? Are you saying that that piece of flesh contains left and right atria and ventricles, bicuspid and tricuspid valves, the aorta, etc.? If so, then why does this summary only mention left ventricle, myocardium, and endocardium (no epicardium?)? It would be extremely helpful, for both believers and critics, if we could read the scientist's study. If you have an English translation available for us (I assume you've read the study?) that would be great. Thanks.

Ignoring various responses to some of these points for now (this blog post gives a basic overview of some of that), remember that the alleged miracle is that in 700 AD, the bread turned into a piece of a human heart, right? This study does not prove that (it doesn't even address it, right?). Instead, what it shows is an analysis of a piece of a human heart. How do you know that the bread was transformed?

Where does that definition of "saint" come from?

Whoops, should've read the whole thread before I posted! That's great (funny, I'm also meeting an "investigator" with the missionaries tomorrow/today at 2pm, hmmm...haha)! No, you didn't offend by asking to meet at the meetinghouse. That's what I did as well, and many people do this, it's not out of the ordinary. No, you can wear regular clothing. I wore jeans and a shirt during my meetings with the missionaries. Enjoy, let us know how it goes!

Hi, welcome! I'm a convert to the Church, it'll be 2 years next month. The best thing to do is contact the missionaries through mormon.org. Just put in your contact info, and they'll call you in a couple days. They'll want to meet with you, so you'll set up a time that works for you, and they can meet with you anywhere, such as your home or at the church building. You could also show up at your nearest meetinghouse on a Sunday (just put in your address at maps.lds.org and that'll show you the nearest meetinghouses, as well as the meeting times for the various congregations. Since you're a 20 year old college student, I'd look for one of the Young Single Adult (YSA) congregations, as those will have many people around your age), and the missionaries will be there as well. Yes, you should read the scriptures on your own at this point, since it's a good thing to read God's word! As someone mentioned, the missionaries will ask you to read some passages in the Book of Mormon, so it would be good for you to start reading it on your own. They'll also refer to passages in the Bible, so you can also start reading the Bible as well. The official version used by the Church in English speaking countries is the King James Version. The KJV can be difficult to understand in some places, so I and other sometimes supplement it with a more modern translation in our personal study, such as the ESV or NIV. You shouldn't delay it any longer if you feel like this is the place where God is leading you. No, you won't look like a fool if you haven't read the Bible or the Book of Mormon through. That isn't expected of you. The missionaries will teach you some basic lessons on various aspects of the LDS faith. They will also ask you to make various commitments, such as reading a passage in the Book of Mormon, attending church on Sunday, etc., all leading up to you following the example of Christ and being baptized. The great thing about the LDS faith is that you don't have to wait a month or a year to be baptized. While there are benefits to that, I find that the LDS way follows the Biblical precedent, where we are baptized after exercising faith in Christ and knowing, through the Holy Ghost, the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Once you have that witness, you repent of your sins, and are baptized. The missionaries will work with you to determine when would be the best time to be baptized. There is no set time period. Some people take months, some take years, some take 2 weeks (such as myself ). You say that you know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really is the Lord's Church, and you have prayed about it and received an answer, and feel that this is the right thing to do. Then, I'd say either go on mormon.org and put in your contact info for the missionaries, or go to maps.lds.org and find your local congregation, and attend Sacrament Meeting this Sunday, and look/ask for the missionaries! Good luck, we'll be praying for ya! Please let us know how your journey progresses!

Hyena, I think I mentioned on the other thread that your story is very similar to mine. If I remember correctly, you're male, African-American, Catholic. Yes, I understand that. I was also hesitant to be baptized at first, for various reasons. It definitely is a "bridge" to cross. However, what I came to realize was that, having received a witness of the Holy Ghost, answers to my prayers to know the Truth, realizing that I was being led to Christ and His Church, I knew I had to follow Him, and trust that He would guide me, in whatever way(s), through any trials that come. I hope that you can come to that same conclusion. Relying solely on Christ alone, almost 2 years later, I'm still here! Yes, my family still wishes that I was Catholic, however they haven't disowned me, we have a great relationship, I go to church with them sometimes, etc. I crossed the bridge that Christ built, and I hope that you will be able to as well. You say that you feel strongly that you've found the Faith and Church for you. Follow that. Yes, it is hard, yes, you may have familial issues to deal with, however God will guide you and be there with you, and you will receive many blessings from God, beginning with those that come with your baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost as your constant Companion. I'm curious. You say that you're a "grown man". How old are you? Do you live with your family? Just wondering, since that can also affect how you approach these issues. Being a "grown man", I think you need to realize that you have to make your own decisions, and that you have your own life to live (this is something that I personally have slowly come to realize and do. It's hard). Saying that, you should also realize that you aren't doing drugs, murdering people, etc, and hopefully your family will one day realize that. Continually pray for your family to one day accept your decision (even if they don't agree with it). If your family loves you, yes, they may be upset for some time at the beginning, however they'll hopefully realize that you've done something that will/is making you a better person. Yes, of course we'd love for you to contact the missionaries now and be baptized as soon as possible! However, as Vort said, you need to really think about what you desire, and what God desires for you. It isn't about your family, it's about what God wants for you. From what you've told us, I don't think you'll ever find a right time for you to have your family give you the "okay" to be baptized. I didn't have that either. It's not going to happen. You really just need to think and pray really hard about all of this, and really think, if you "know" that this is the Faith and Church for you, that this is where God is leading you, then you need to act. You can then work on how you approach your family on the matter. If they don't allow you to speak or won't listen to you, write a letter. Just write out your thoughts and feelings on the issue, and especially about how much you love them and don't want to lose them or have them hate you because of your decision. Leave the letter for them. I don't expect them to be hugs and kisses overnight, however first they have to understand your side of the matter. I think a relevant scripture is Matthew 19:29-"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." I'll say a prayer for you tonight!

You do realize that some Eastern Orthodox churches allow the use of condoms sometimes, out of ekonomia, right?

Firstly, the "holy men of God" in the actual verse is talking the specific prophets and apostles that wrote the scriptures (since it talks about the prophecy that "came", i.e. past tense). Yes, Matthias was numbered with the apostles. He became an apostle, not a bishop. This is not evidence for the Catholic Church, which regards bishops as successors to the apostles (there is no Biblical evidence for that concept, FWIW). A successor to an apostle is an apostle (just like how the successor to President Obama will be a President, not a Secretary). This is evidence for the Latter-day Saint position of continuation of the apostolic office. Already addressed before. Jesus Christ died. Did the gates of hell/hades prevail against Him? No. He is resurrected, He lives. The Church is the Body of Christ, and it is interesting that in the LDS concept, there is a parallel to the life of Christ Himself, where the Church "died" (though obviously still existing in Heaven), yet was "resurrected" or restored by God Himself. Therefore, just like how the gates of hades, or death, did not prevail against Christ, since He is resurrected, the gates of hades, or death, did not prevail against Christ's Church, since Christ Himself resurrected it.

Sorry, there is no contradiction. Yes, the above quote came from the website I posted, which itself is quoting an article in the scholarly journal Science. I think I'll trust the scholarly opinion over yours, FWIW. Even Wikipedia states there is "minimal" historical evidence for Solomon. By "Queen Sheba" I assume you mean the "Queen of Sheba". The "evidence" for Solomon's marriage to the Queen of Sheba comes from an Ethiopian legend/story, from 700 years ago, called Kebra Negast.

Then I'm not sure you read the book, because it extensively refers to extra biblical writings, ante (not "anti") Nicene fathers, 1st and 2nd Century Christians, etc. For example, Latter-day Saints frequently refer to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as "three Gods", while also accepting that, because they are united in perfect indwelling love and purpose, they can be referred to together as "one God". This is the "Godhead" doctrine. Catholics would never refer to Jesus Christ, God the Son, as a "second God", since this would go against your belief in consubstantiality, or oneness of Being (at least in your theological viewpoint). But we have Justin Martyr, Origen, and many others referring to Him as "second God" and other related terms. Perhaps you should read it. Here's another website that proffers ancient evidences for many of the unique beliefs of the restored Church of Jesus Christ. And that's just a drop in the bucket. Right, Latter-day Saints don't believe in "Bible alone". You misunderstand what that verse is saying. Always look at scripture in context: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. This says nothing about scripture not having personal interpretation, but that the prophecies that were given were not obtained or originated in the personal musings of the prophet (i.e. the prophecies did not originate with the man himself), but that the prophets came as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Long story. Short version: I was raised Catholic, and was very active and believing most of my life (I was not "poorly catechized" as some Catholic critics would claim of those that leave). Became aware of the LDS Church after randomly finding out about it, and feeling like I had to disprove it over at Catholic Answers Forums, since there could only be "one true Church", and I believed that that was the Catholic Church. The more I read the Bible, as well as early Israelite and Christian history, beliefs, and practices, the more the LDS faith made sense to me, and seemed to be what it claimed to be: the restoration of Christ's Church, by Jesus Christ Himself. It was a very hard decision, but after much study and prayer, I was baptized. There are things I miss from being Catholic, but I know without a doubt that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really is Christ's Church. Funny, I was watching this Evangelical documentary about a group of former missionaries that left the LDS Church and became Evangelical. Many of them talked about how they read the Bible and realized that Mormonism wasn't Biblical, how they never really read the Bible before, etc. I have the completely opposite experience: the more I read the Bible (I'm reading the New Testament currently), the more I see the LDS faith as Biblical Christianity. It is because of reading the Bible, the words of Jesus Christ, believing in Him, accepting Him as my Savior, that I am a Latter-day Saint.

Yep, Latter-day Saints employ faith and reason.

I already posted a link to a book. You should read it.

Yes, Latter-day Saints agree with that. Judaism would regard "historical Christianity", i.e. the Trinity, as polytheistic. You have three distinct divine Persons, that's polytheism (or so they would say). I'll give you a date right after you give me the exact date that Jesus was born, the date the New Testament Church was established, a date when Adam and Eve fell in the Garden, and...I think you get the point. There was no more apostolic authority when the last apostle died. Bishops are not apostles. Bishops are bishops, apostles are apostles. No, it doesn't. Jesus Christ died, and Resurrected. Did the gates of hades prevail against Him? Similarly (since, you know, the Church is the Body of Christ), the Church can "die" and be "resurrected", by Christ Himself, and the gates of hades did not prevail.

Start here for a taste: Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity, by Barry Bickmore.

That happens to me ALL the time! They think I'm Dominican. I'm told many times that I look like their son, grandson, etc.

There's a tendency for converts, including myself, to want to do EVERYTHING when they join. It isn't possible. Yes, there's much to learn, much to experience. However you can take it as slowly or as quickly as you desire. The important thing is to continue to converse with God through prayer, for all things, and to read your scriptures. Gospel Principles class on Sundays will also help you learn the basic doctrines of the Church. You can even read the manual online to get an idea. You will also have people there to support you in your new journey, in your calling, etc. And remember, if and when we do fail (since we are all human), the atoning sacrifice of Christ allows us to repent, be forgiven, and also to be empowered. I met with the missionaries at the church building. This happens many times. You can meet with them wherever you feel comfortable.

Haha, no it isn't cheesy. That's how I felt too (and still feel!). I felt that I had come Home. I also remember telling one friend that it was a "breath of fresh air".

Just saw this post. I haven't read through the thread, so I'll probably end up repeating what has already been said. I'm a convert to the Church, and I was raised Catholic, and was very active and participating in the life of the Catholic Church in various ways (lector, EMHC, taught religious ed for 8th grade, etc). My entire family is Catholic, including most of my extended family (I have a relative that converted to Assemblies of God, and that was an issue, so I knew being LDS would be as well). The important thing to realize is whether you have received confirmation from God that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints really is Christ's Church, that Joseph Smith really was a prophet of God and that God restored the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that the Book of Mormon really is scripture. If you have prayed to God for answers, and you have received that answer (as the Bible teaches you are able to do), then you know what and where God is calling you to, and that is to Jesus Christ, and the fulness of His Gospel, in His Church, in the CoJCoLDS. Once you're baptized, you won't be "on your own again". The Church is a family, and the ward (your local congregation, i.e. the parish) is your family. I'm sure you'll find friends there. Also, there will be various people in various positions at your ward that will help you as you begin your new journey. The leader of the congregation, the Bishop, along with his 2 Counselors, will be there. There will be "ward missionaries" that teach a class called Gospel Principles, which is for new converts and investigators, where you will learn more about the basic beliefs of the Faith. There will be "home teachers", who will visit with you at least once a month (if visiting in your home isn't possible, you'd rather not have them there, etc., you can meet somewhere else, they can share a message with you over the phone/email, etc), and will make sure that you're doing okay both spiritually and temporally. If you need a blessing by the priesthood of God, they will be able to bless you. If you are a woman, you will also have "visiting teachers" that function similarly. There will be other leaders as well that will also look out for you, in addition to the people that just want to make sure you're okay! You won't be alone. It sounds like you want to, essentially, act out your Christianity. There will be plenty of opportunities for that in your ward congregation! There are many opportunities for service. For example, next month, my ward will be going to the Bishop's Storehouse, which is essentially a mini-supermarket for disadvantaged individuals and families that are not able to afford food. We will be helping out with receiving the shipment to stock the Storehouse, then assist those individuals and families as they get the basic food items that they can't afford themselves. For Christmas, we bought gifts and donated money for disadvantaged individuals and families so that they could have gifts for Christmas. There are many opportunities to do things like that. You will also receive a "calling" in your congregation. This will allow you further opportunities to serve in your congregation. You could be the pianist/organist, a teacher, a greeter, a chorister, a ward missionary, a family history consultant, anything! As far as your family, I completely understand. As I mentioned, my family is Catholic (and African American as well). I received the same response of, basically, giving up on culture, what our family has been for generations, etc. However, it isn't really a divisive thing. We just don't talk about it. Sometimes I go to church with my family. I drop my brother off at church for class sometimes. When I go to my ward, it isn't a problem. I know that they would like me to be Catholic again, however it isn't divisive. The thing to realize is that your family is your family, and they will always be there for you, no matter what. They might not like it at first, they'll be upset, etc., but they'll think the same thing, that you're still family. Just share with them your thoughts and how you feel, and also how important family is to you. That should be helpful. Share with them all of your thoughts. For your baptism, most likely your family won't be there. Mine wasn't (I didn't invite them). The missionaries will most likely ask if it's okay to invite your ward congregation. I did this, and there were around 20-25 people at my baptism! You can also invite any friends as well. To be a missionary, you'd have to be a member of the Church for at least a year. For men, I believe you can serve a mission between the ages of 18-26, and for women, it's 19+. After that, you can serve a senior mission when you're older. So what should you do now?? I really think, if you haven't already done so, that you need to contact the local missionaries. If you've already read, studied, and prayed to God for guidance, and you've received God's guidance on what you should do, then, following that, you should come unto Christ through the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. You will have people there to support you, and you certainly shouldn't give up on joining the Church of Jesus Christ if God has called you! It was very hard for me to do this, and I pray that my family joins me one day (and I'm sure they are praying for me to come back to Catholicism as well), but I know it was where God called me to, it is where New Testament Christianity is found in its fulness, and, coming up to 2 years later, I can say that I don't regret it. The local missionaries will help you with all of this as well. Hope that helps!

I don't believe that anatess said that we can "know God by simply studying humans", as if that was the end of it. What he/she did say was "The more we know about who we are, the more we know and understand God." In my understanding of this statement, this is not some sort of anthropological study. Instead, we can come to know a lot about God by looking to His creations, most especially those created in His image and likeness, mankind. If we come to know more about who we really are, that certainly means that we can come to know much about God, in whose image and likeness we are created in. God's creation points towards Him. While Latter-day Saints certainly believe that, as children of God, we are not of a completely different "kind" than Him, that does not mean that His divinity is diminished, or that God is "merely" something. Theology is certainly relevant to the Latter-day Saint perspective (I see no reason why it would not be, since we believe in and worship the Divine, i.e. God). For Latter-day Saints, the greatest way to know God is through His divine Son, Jesus Christ, and through the direct experience of and communion with God. One article that I like that is related to these issues is: The Mormon Concept of God: A Philosophical Analysis, by Blake Ostler.

Ok that's fine (btw, Latter-day Saints don't believe that there is anything "simply" about God, as if there are some limitations on Him, or that He is "merely" something. More on that later). From the Latter-day Saint perspective, God can reveal Himself in a way that can be understood by humans. Now, this certainly does not mean that we fully comprehend Him. It doesn't mean that we invent or "imagine" what we want God to be. Instead, it means that, in the Latter-day Saint viewpoint, God has revealed Himself in a certain way that our finite minds can comprehend (which is not the same as saying we fully comprehend God). The reason why I asked you that question was because you stated-"I would think that it would be impossible to accept the doctrine of the Trinty with the Mormon view of the nature of God. If he does have a body of flesh and bone, like us, then he cannot be three persons in one being." Now, it is important to state that Latter-day Saints do not believe that the Father's body is like ours. Instead, He, like the Son, possesses a glorified body. So, my question is, if having a body precludes "three persons in one being", then does not the Son having a body also preclude "three persons in one being"? If not, why not? Also, what is the definition of "three persons in one being", since this must have some specific, comprehensible definition to be able to say that some concept (having a body) precludes it.

Do you believe that the Son now having a glorified body of flesh and bone has any relevance to your above statement? Just wondering. Latter-day Saints would similarly say that the Godhead is a Family, and that the family is a sign of being made in the image and likeness of God :).