[Why against gays?]

NO time to delve into this today or this weekend at all. Sorry if any of you took my rantings as judgements. It's just a very frustrating and confusing scenario and one I'm trying to make sense of. My emotions get the best of me when I get both frustrated and confused. But thank you all for trying to address my questions. I've had many of them answered in doing my own research this morning. A sense of peace has come over me that all the answers I need to know have been given. Since it's not a direct part of my life right now, I don't need to worry about it too much. I may have to deal with it more in the future so I hope to be prepared and be more calm at that time.

Basically all we need to know as Latter Day Saints has been addressed on the church website. If we try to complicate it or make it into a different issue than it is, we'll run into trouble, lose the spirit and we'll be denying truth. There is no point in trying to outsmart Heavenly Father. He knows us completely. He knows why we seem to have certain inclinations- whatever they may be. I think in the end, on Judgement day (with a capital J) our own self justifications will sound pretty lame in the face of His perfect love. He already knows and I'm pretty sure we will know too at that time whether we have been true or not. Whatever joy or shame we feel about our choices and actions in this life will be incomparable in magnitude to what we'll feel on that day. And however we're rewarded or punished will make perfect sense. My feeling is that we won't be at all surprised where we end up on Judgement Day. We knew all along. But I bet we'll be very surprised to see some on the front row in the celestial kingdom that we figured didn't even have a chance of getting in the door. That will be an interesting day for sure.

Best wishes to all of us, that we can make it.

[Why against gays?]

Carlimac

The problem is you can't understand. you've dismissed all we've said and you just can't understand.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Until you realize that right now you are fully unable to grasp the essence of the situation all you are doing if missing the point.

The Gay agenda is not so much a missionary effort as so many seem ot think it is. It's an effort to not have to worry about being dragged behind a truck by scared people. It's about people knowing it's wrong to tie someone to a fence and throw rocks at a person just cause they are different. It's about loving someone with all your heart and being able to be a partner ot them when they need you or you need them. You can shrug all this off, but then one must really look at the history of the saints and wonder if they really were persecuted at all or just brought everything on themselves by not just sitting down and keeping quiet and accepting the view of the world around them when they knew they deserved better.

Until you shed the scales from your eyes and really try to understand and not just pretend to want to know, your effort will be futile and you will do nothing but prove you are incapable or learning or understanding.

What makes you think I'm pretending? I've asked some very direct questions just shy of what I think is too inappropriate for this forum. All I've gotten back is vague answers of "it's just the way I am" and "you just don't understand". You're absolutely right. I don't understand. I'm trying to understand homosexuality juxtaposed against a whole different set of things I've been taught about God's plan, about God himself as I understand him from church doctrine and scriptures and modern day revelation from our prophet and leaders. They can't both be right. So how does a homosexual Latter Day Saint explain it? How does one make it right in their own minds?

For your info I have struggled for a long time with the whole idea of polygamy. How could God give a commandment that seems so opposite to some fundamental principles of righteousness. But HE did. I don't fully understand why. I have my own theories. But I have come to peace about it because I have a testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet. The Lord had His reasons. But I haven't run across any information in any scripture or modern day revelation that says anything about homosexuality being OK with Heavenly Father now. Not one prophet or apostle has approved it or let us know that now, in these last days, it's OK to marry someone of your same gender.

So how are those of us who have deep and abiding testimonies of the Gospel supposed to simply accept and embrace this as a God given trait meant to be used for personal pleasure? Especially when we see it as a potential threat to our children? What do you suggest? I'm serious. Are we supposed to just ignore it, pretend it won't ever affect our families? Are you hoping we'll all just live together in harmony in this totally mixed up society? Do you think that's what God intended and planned? I think it's what He and past prophets saw happening and warned us about but I don't think HE made it this way. Men have used their own agency to mess things up.

I'm asking lots of questions not to try to badger or intimidate but to get some real help from gays? How DO you expect us to respond to this spiritual dilemma? Are YOU trying to understand where WE are coming from? Is the gay community willing to respect the straight community as much as YOU want to be respected? IF so, don't just blow off our attempts to try to understand you. Don't call us judgemental and unable to "grasp the essense". I'm asking all kinds of questions trying to get answers that sound like real answers.

[Why against gays?]

carlimac, you might that people are more willing to listen to you if you stop being so hostile.

My hostility is not aimed at individuals on this board as much as it is against society's acceptance and promotion of this lifestyle in general.

I know I'm not going to convince these guys that the way I see things is correct. I'm not expecting them to listen to me. I AM trying to put a voice to some pent up frustration about all this. My child brought a book home from the elementary school library last week about a gay couple adopting a child. The message of the book was that it was perfectly normal and natural for these two women to love each other and to want to share that love with a baby. It was all part of this gay agenda, this political correctness that is being promoted that accepts something I believe is morally wrong, as right. Darn right I'm feeling hostile about it. The mama bear in me is up on her hind legs ready to swat.

I'm trying to understand what makes gays think they are gay. The statement that "it is at the very core of who they are" isn't a good enough explanation for me. I'm afraid that so many kids - not just MY kids but all the youth in general will get drawn into a similar conclusion about themselves, even if what they are experiencing ISN'T true gayness. And mess up not only their lives now but also their eternal salvation.

(side note: I was a nurse in a pediatric hospital 25 years ago when a baby was brought in with undeveloped gentalia. The doctors did all they could to try to figure out which gender the child was including blood tests and ultrasounds. They couldn't determine it for sure even after several months. The parents had to make a choice. They could have chosen wrong. That was a very legitimate case of potential confused gender and things gone terribly wrong in the child's prenatal developement. THAT I can understand.)

Believe it or not I AM trying to understand their journey into gayness because it is just so foreign to me. Believe it or not, I do have great empathy for people who experience pain of any kind whether it physical or emotional, whether it was no fault of theirs or even if they brought it on themselves. But in trying to gain an education about homosexuality, to understand the awkwardness these guys must have felt, I will not allow myself to say, "Oh gee that's really rough. I'm so sorry. Yes you have every right to break temple covenants, commit adultery or fornication if it makes you feel better about yourself. Yes, absolutely marry your same gender and bring children into that union. " I just won't do that. That would be denouncing everything I've ever learned about the plan of salvation. I'm NOT condemning the sinner. I have no ability to do that because I'm not God. I'm grateful I don't have to judge them now or ever. I AM comparing the dilemma of same gender attraction to others situations I've witnessed with seemingly monumental strikes against them and how they have come out victorious over their problems. I don't think, nor can I ever believe that the loving Heavenly Father I know would give anyone on this earth insurmountable problems. Nor do I believe that he would give his earthly children a problem so huge that He changes eternal laws and commandments just for them.

I'm just trying to make sense of it all. And if I sound argumentative about it, it is because I'm so frustrated that it DOESN'T make sense.

[Why against gays?]

Sorry LT that post wasn't directed at you.

Though in response to your comment on people not having children due to medical conditions, that's still god's will and we use science to get around it. If homo sexuality IS biological in some sense is there really a huge difference or are we splitting hairs to make one biological difference ok when we slam another?

I am pretty certain you know the answer to this. It's just another ploy to twist the truth.

I have listened and read your posts. I have responded honestly with how I see things. I have bolstered my opinion with gospel truths. If you don't believe the Mormon church to be true then you can say and believe anything you want. It's OK to give up, get yourself a partner to be "happy" with and make yourself believe that the church sees you as unworthy anyway so why try to keep the commandments? More lies.

I don't know what your situation is. I don't fully understand where Gaysaint is coming from. But if in fact he does have a partner that he is breaking temple covenants with (I do remember that he was a missionary so he did make temple covenants, which include sexual purity), then he has given into temptation. Plain and simple. His and your same sex attractions aren't gifts from God to relish in. They are challenges to be dealt with. I have very difficult challenges to deal with, too. I will not allow Satan to tell me I have no hope to over come whatever earthly challenge I face. I will struggle to stay on top of those probelms every day of my life. ANd I will also work like crazy to expose the lies that are out there.

Like I said before, I have no doubt that same sex attractions exist, but they don't automatically mean you are not ever going to be exalted. It's possible to remain clean. EVEN IF it means being celibate the rest of your earthly life. It's only if you act on those urges that you lose your worthiness.

[Why against gays?]

There is a possibility then you are bisexual. I know I am as comfortable with the idea of loving a oman as I am a man, neither revolts me or makes me go pale at the thought. And in someways it makes understanding gay people harder because actually you can change between the two it can aid a more objective and perhaps the healthiest view of love there is

My bestfriend is gay the idea of living with a woman makes him physically ill, I am the closest he ever go, and we love each other to bits, but there is no way we would work.

No, I'm not bisexual. I can assure you of that. I think those labels are contrived and fabricated. I don't like frills and foof and lots of make-up and perfume. I own one pair of high heels that I wear begrudingly. I'm more attracted to sleek lines and tailored clothing. I LOVE jeans and t-shirts. I have shorter hair than lots of men. I do think some women have beautiful bodies that are attractive. But I have no desire to BE with those women. None! BUT I can imagine that if I had been told early on that these less feminine traits of mine meant that I was gay and if I had been raised in a confusing situation with gay parents or very liberal parents, if I didn't have a firm and abiding testimony of God's plan, I could have become tolerant of the idea of being with a woman, and thinking I actually was gay.

Thats what worries me about our children growing up. Society is telling them big fat lies. Do I think homosexuality is a big hoax? NO. I believe that some people are in fact attracted to the same gender in varying degrees. But I think it is a hoax, a very crafty one set out by Satan that homosexuality is so very prevalent and normal and if you have those attractions, there is no way to be happy in a heterosexual marriage and you might as well just give in to your urges. Because you might feel aroused when you see or stand next to someone of your same gender means you are gay. Because you like Barbies and dressing up and are emotional and sensitive when you are a boy child, that you don't like hero action figures or getting dirty and but do like to decorate and be in plays means you are destined to be with men. That if you are athletic and play softball really well and you are more course than refined as a girl, you are a lesbian. Those are the lies that are, in the most subtle forms being perpetuated by our society. Who wants more than anyone to see God's plan foiled? Who is better at misconstruing the truth than anyone?? Who is just angry enough to work so hard at little kids to make them feel so "different" that they need to turn to homosexuality (or any other in a long list of sins?) Who would want to make a good righteous man or woman think they are being "selfish" by denying their same sex attractions to marry in the temple and raise an eternal family? The father of all contortions and lies. And sadly the "real world" has been duped big time!

[Why against gays?]

I would argue that it would be selfish of me to marry a woman simply to ensure myself a place of Godhood and exaltation – with no thought to her feelings.[/QUOTE]

Again, this doesn't ring true. Why could you have no thought for her feelings? That doesn't sound like just being gay. That sounds like a whole other roadblock to me.

So are you saying that gays truely can't have any kind of love for the opposite sex, can't conjure up any interest in helping someone of the other gender to receive God's choicest blessings? Can't work together and set goals together and have any fun at all together?

OK, then I have to say that some of my women friends ARE very attractive, even to me. But I don't want to BE with them. I have never let myself imagine a sexual relationship with any of them, even though they are very attractive. I would love the idea of spending every day with them, of raising kids in the same household. I even have unattractive friends that I feel that way about. I love these women deeply and possibly have never felt that kind of love for a man.

Yes it is the sex thing that sets my husband apart from them. (AND the fact that I can't procreate with them.) But you are saying being gay isn't just about sex.

[Why against gays?]

I would argue that it would be selfish of me to marry a woman simply to ensure myself a place of Godhood and exaltation – with no thought to her feelings.[/QUOTE]

Again, this doesn't ring true. Why could you have no thought for her feelings? That doesn't sound like just being gay. That sounds like a whole other roadblock to me.

So are you saying that gays truely can't have any kind of love for the opposite sex, can't conjure up any interest in helping someone of the other gender to receive God's choicest blessings? Can't work together and set goals together and have any fun at all together?

[Why against gays?]

If it's not about sexual attraction, what IS it about? Are all women repulsive to you?

I would much rather spend time with women than men. I love my women friends. We hug and cry on each other's shoulders. We have very intimate, trusting conversations. I can depend on them. I have more in common with them than I do with my husband (aside from our children and inside jokes). I have way more fun with women than I do with men. I have no desire to do guy stuff, don't get or appreciate male humor, I am physically repulsed by some men. So am I gay? NO!

If I'm still not getting it, could you tell me then what it is that makes you gay and why you could never be happy with a woman?

[Why against gays?]

This whole topic is very sad and disturbing to me and I want to run from it because it cuts at the roots of what I think is so very sacred and true- that there is a living Father in Heaven, that the Lord created man and woman. That we were instructed from the very beginning of time to multiply and replenish the earth.

I'm sorry if I come across as closed minded but as I read and listen to everything gays have to say about it, even well meaning and sincere LDS gays who desire all that Heavenly Father wishes to give us eternally, I hear excuses and justifications. One very false sounding statement you have made is that "You couldn't do that to a daughter of God." That doesn't sound like truth to me. Especially when you say you have had women that knew you were gay that would have married you anyway. You truely would turn down the opportunity to enter the celestial kingdom because of an attraction issue? Sounds to me like the man who was asked to give away all his earthly goods to enter the kindgom of heaven, but couldn't do it. Just could bring himself to part with what he loved the most- his stuff.

The kind of love required for a happy and successful marriage has very little to do with sex and attraction. I KNOW this is true!! I know of several couples where one or the other of the two cannot physically participate in sexual relations. And yet there is deep devotion and a great love in the marriage. They are eternal marriages in the making without any sexual attraction. We have been friends with a couple. The husband is just so very ugly according to the world's standards. He is physically crippled, unable to walk, has a short fat ugly body, he wheezes and has medical issues 24/7. He wears Depends and has a catheter. He cannot "perform". There is nothing attractive about him, except his soul and his delightful personality and his bright mind. He was born this way!! And yet he is married to a wonderful, lovely woman who could have married prince charming. They have adopted two boys and are providing a warm and loving home for them.

I would have to say that 99% of my women friends (the ones who will discuss it anyway) do NOT match up with their husbands libido. Mostly, their husbands want sex way more than they do. But there are some where it's the other way around. But theirs are solid marriages. They have learned to deal with it, to say oh well,maybe I can't have it my way (like sex once every 2-3 months instead of 2-3 times a week. But this is my spouse whom I love and appreciate and adore. I know a lady ( my next door neighbor )who told me they hadn't had sex in something like 4 years. SHe just couldn't bring herself to do it anymore. Well shortly after this she developed cancer and died two years later. You should have seen her husband. He was absolutley distraught without her for a very long time. There's was a sweet and close marriage despite zero sexual relations!!

What about elderly people who well... lets just say, have lost their get up and go. The love and bond that exists between them goes so far beyond physical attraction. It's the kind of love that is hard earned from decades of sacrifice and putting the needs of the other first and self second.

Marriage is NOT all about what feels good to you, what rings your bell, what stirs your pot. Eternal marriage is all about sacrificing for the other person. It's about making your spouse feel good even if it doesn't feel good to you. It's about raising children in a covenant home. It's about eternal bonds that transend anything we experience on this earth.

I don't doubt that you aren't attracted to women. I'm sorry for you if that's the case. So you might not ever be sexually satisfied in a marriage to a woman. You might even think your wife is ugly. But the challenge is to overcome the selfishness that is making you think you couldn't make a woman happy. Maybe there are some women out there who would be upset about it. Avoid them. But if there is a girl out there who loves your soul, who is willing to be married to you despite your..."handicap", it seems so disingenous, so false to say you could never put a daughter of God through that. Especially if she is willing!

Gays say they can't be or stay married to someone of the opposite sex. I say hogwash!!

[Why against gays?]

Try telling John that.

The exact scenario I outlined happened to the daughter ("Suzy") of a close friend of my family. I can't begin to tell you the damage that it did to Suzy and her children (and her parents, brother, close friends, etc.) It was hard for everyone to deal with. She felt beyond betrayed. It was years before she could trust again. Eventually she remarried. Her new husband has three or four children of his own, and of their seven or eight, two sets have the same name, weirdly enough.

Would you rather than John told Suzy that he was gay, but then still tried to stay? Do you think that would have been any more successful? Harsh as it is, I think you really need to get out of your bubble and see the real world.

Sorry but I think this "real world" is one that has been man made. So doggone much focus has been put on this, so much of having to accept it, approve of it, legislate for it that yes it has become the real world. But it isn't the world God made or approves of.

There is such a safety net for gays these days. Huge communities of people who condone and embrace the mind set that it's not taboo anymore. There is a place to go, a refuge where no one is going to condemn the person, will accept the person and provide love and encouragement, but not try to help them. With other addictions or problems though, (and yes I still see homosexuality as an unnatural problem - not perfectly normal and natural) there are places to go - AA where the whole community is supporting the change of behavior the addicted is seeking.

Gaysaint- Do you remember WHO it was that told you the very first time that you are gay? Who was it that told you that you are hopelessly and permanently unable to ever experience heterosexual love? Did you believe them?

If the message were never put out there in the first place that being gay is incurable, MY unscientific hunch is that there would be a lot more people who would just say, "oh that's weird that I felt attraction to that guy when I'm a guy", or "Hmm why am I looking at girls when I'm a girl?" and let it go at that. Homosexuality would never become real for them and they'd go on living happy, well-adjusted lives with spouses and kids. JMHO

I've gotta let this topic go. Too much good that needs to be done in the world this day. I'm not going to be convinced by any pro-gay pleadings for understanding so I might as well get out of this discussion.

I side with Laurel. If you people want to hang out together, go ahead, but leave the kids out of it. Don't mess up some kids life by adopting or making your already born kids live with you and your lover. And keep your sex lives to yourselves. Please? We don't want to kow about it.

[Why against gays?]

John married Suzy. John and Suzy have four children together. After 10 years of marriage, John tells Suzy that he's gay. He's known he was gay since he was 16 years old. He served a mission, attended BYU, and they married in the temple. John has been having affairs with men with the last three years because he can't deny his sexuality, yet at the same time he knows that he's made a commitment to the marriage and is trying to make it work. He has honestly grown to love Suzy and his children, but he can't deny his sexuality. He asks Suzy for a divorce.

Are you telling me that you don't understand how someone could feel sorry for John's family?

Yes I understnd why his family would be hurt if he finally gives up living the way the Lord wants him to. But he doesn't have to give up!! He is choosing to give up.

[Why against gays?]

I would say for the same reason some people are born with down syndrome, or congenital heart problems, or cleft chins...random chance.

DNA and genetics are an amazing thing. The complexity of DNA allows for the majority of the strand that is balanced ideally to overcompensate for the parts of the DNA that are not. It usually takes very complex interactions among genes to create most of the congenital conditions that we observe. But, it isn't perfect. There is an element of chance to it, and I imagine that it was by design that there would be that element of chance.

It seems to me that instead of God hand picking what [physical] imperfections, blemishes, and strengths a person has, he has created an efficient process that can provide these without his interference.

So the short answer I would posit is that same sex tendencies exist because nature doesn't always create things in the norm.

THe "gay gene" has never been found. Read this article.

Science vs. the "Gay Gene"

[Why against gays?]

It's worth noting that just because they are married -- even happily -- doesn't mean they aren't gay. It could just mean that they are trying hard to do what is taught in the Church and deny same-sex tendencies. If that's the case, I feel for their families.

But as you say, they could just be effeminate straight men.

This is something I just can't understand. Why do you "feel for their families"???

[Why against gays?]

I don't know much about the whole "science" behind homosexuality- why it exists. I would think it has something to do with hormone levels. But GaySaint, do you believe that it is all physiological? Or is it possible that there IS a psychological or environmental element involved in a person being gay? I ask this because I can think of at least 3 or 4 good male friends who have feminine characteristics. They are effeminate in the way the talk, their interests, their emotions. But they are happily married men with children, devoted to their wives. If I were to guess, I would think they were gay. But they aren't.

I'm not so naive that I don't know that some gay men don't have any recognizable feminine characteristics and some gay women aren't masculine at all. But if it isn't physical, then what is it that makes you gay? You said you knew you were different from the time you were 10. Different how?

[If you were not Mormon, then what?]

Hmm...Amish? I love their simple lifestyle but their 3 hour church services would be brutal (Oh wait...3 hour meetings? Sounds familiar) I guess I would probably do some kind of independent worship as I spent oodles of time out in nature. I'd pray to the God of the mountains and trees and sun and clouds and flowers. I'd visit a cathedral now and then with beautiful architecture and awesome acoustics with interesting light patterns coming through stained glass windows. I'd never dress up on Sundays. I'm sure I'd be a coffee or tea drinker and probably an alcoholic so it's a good thing I'm LDS.

[Where do LDS fit in the Christian world?]

Maybe some of us are simply balking at the terms which are hot ones in the political arena right now and are related to so much contention. I personally just can't (don't want to ) use polarizing labels in relation to belief in Christ. That's all.

[My wife and the priesthood]

Come to think of it, is there any way we could move most of these posts out of this thread and into something else so that interalia can actually have his question addressed?

Sorry, man.

I agree. What did that have to do with women and the priesthood anyway?

[My wife and the priesthood]

You seem to have skimmed over my statement: "The simple fact is, this is a really tough part of accepting the Church when you have even minor feminist attitudes."

I don't feel men are superior to women, nor vice versa. But the explanations you offer don't address the feminist concerns of equality very well (those being the societal imposition of gender roles).

NO I didn't skim over that part. I caught it.

I would call myself feminist in that I think women should strive to develop the best in themselves. They should get equal pay for equal work and all that. If a woman isn't married and doesn't have a family (her family SHOULD be her top priority if she has the opportunity to have one) I think it's great if a woman can rise to great heights in the world. She should be able to do anything she aspires to that's righteous and productive and good. President and CEO of companies, President of nations, climb the highest mountain in the world, whatever. If she can do it- more power to her. But that's talking about the earthly world. In matters of the spirit and the Lord's kingdom, He has created specific responsibilites that are different for men and women. EQUAL but different. Men are not called upon to do certain women's duties and women aren't called upon to take on men's. But both genders are blessed equally by the work of the other. It's when women desire the power or whatever it is that they want from holding the priesthood, that they start going against God's plan. I don't know why God made it the way it is. I do know that His plan is there to bring to pass all the happiness and eternal riches possible to both genders in the world to come. So I'll just trust that He knew what He was doing when He set it up.

That's how I see it.

[My wife and the priesthood]

Using the story dialog in the Book of Genesis, naming her Eve was not given in the beginning but was after the fall sited in chapter 3 verse 20.

3:20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

You will also find in Genesis (see Chapter 2), regarding the 'first flesh' observed by Moses, who authorship identifies Adam was created before animals and Eve. Even the animals were created before Eve. However, this is another ensuring discussion in another thread regarding evolution and pre-adamic race.

18 ¶ And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Where do you get that there were two Adams and then one was made into an Eve? I think I prefer to go with the temple version of the creation. Animals, then one man was placed on the earth, then Eve. Adam only named her. He didn't define her role.

[My wife and the priesthood]

"Even the Garden of Eden, there was no true definition of Eve in the beginning but considered an Adam. They were both called Adams. It was afterward, that Adam declared who she was when the roles become evident"

Huh??

[My wife and the priesthood]

Moe, it looks like we posted at roughly the same time. I asked the very question you were making light of. "why would a woman want the responsibility of the priesthood?" (why wouldn't you want to take on an fulfill covenants that give you access to God's power and great blessings)

My response to that is - I don't feel any less access to God's power and blessings because of not holding the priesthood. I have prayer to access His power and am abundantly blessed because of the priesthood through those that hold it. It is very nearby and I have instant access to it through the men in my life- not just men in my household (of which there are precious few) but through my leaders. I don't even feel they always need to be physically present for me to access those blessings.

I just asked my husband whether he felt any superior to women because of his ability to hold the priesthood. His immediate answer was - Absolutely not! If I ever even think of it that way- guess what? poof! the power leaves. (Doctrine and Covenants 121:36-42) The power of the priesthood is only to be used in total righteousness and submission to God's will. Using the priesthood to lord over women (like even asssuming the males species is superior) is UN-righteous and the power is then null and void.

[My wife and the priesthood]

Questions- Why would she want women to hold the priesthood? How does she see the concept as flawed? How does she feel about the role of womanhood today?

I suggest perhaps she read some of the conference talks that revere women. (Russell Ballard is a big advocate of women in the church.) Also talks by President Hinckley about the importance of women in the church.

Sure, women aren't able to hold the priesthood, but there are things men can't do either. That's the way the Lord made it to be. Women and men have different roles in the Lord's kingdom. He has set it up so that there is an equal division of labor. When it's needed we do have access to priesthood blessings through our husbands or other church leaders.

As a woman I don't feel the least bit deprived because I can't hold the priesthood. I have enough responsibility as it is. Nor do I feel one iota less imprtant than the men in the church. It might be something she has to experience- being a member and having callings and being a mother (do you have children?) to realize there is plenty to keep us busy without having priesthood responsibilities, too.

Best wishes for you and her. I hope she can overcome this hang-up because I have no doubt the Lord will bless you both for her becoming a member.

[Where do LDS fit in the Christian world?]

I could understand that assessment if I were here as a representative of some Anti-LDS group, or if I had a history here of antagonistic postings. But, I'm not and I don't, so not sure why anyone would smell a trap

Sorry. I haven't been around long enough to know you. I have to admit to getting jumpy and defensive about this topic. Or at the very least, confounded by the mere question. I would bet that most LDS members take a much more simplistic approach to the term "Christian" than other Christians do. We believe in Jesus Christ as our savior so we are Christians and that's about it. If we believed in Buddha, we'd be Buddhists. If we believed Scooby Doo were our savior and founder of our church, we'd be Scooby Dooians.

Maybe it's just me that's simple minded. But Being A Christian doesn't have to be all that complicated.

[Where do LDS fit in the Christian world?]

"IMHO, LDS cannot be pidgeon-holed as liberal or conservative. I've already said that. My intention is to vision-cast a bit. So much energy goes in to the "We ARE Christians!" discussions, that it seemed forward-thinking to ask, "OK...if so, what kind?"

We believe in Christ, we follow His teachings, we try to emmulate His compassion and care for humankind, we believe in His atonement and His ability to make up for our weaknesses. What other kind of Christian can or should there be anyway? Diligent or lazy? True to beliefs or hypocrite? Somehow "liberal" or "conservative" are adjectives that just don't seem to jive with Christianity anyway. They are terms used for politics - right or left, or quantitative - as in how much mustard you put in your potato salad. For me, they don't work with being Christian. Either you are or you are not.

[After passing on]

I "felt" communication from my mother after her passing a couple of times. It was so strong! I could have sworn she was right there with me although I didn't "hear" her voice. I don't know with a certainty that she was actually there in spirit and observing all that was going on. It may have just been that I knew her so well while she was alive that I knew exactly how she'd want me to act and what to do in these two situations. Same thing happened after my father passed away.

My sisters have talked about sensing their "essence"- not seeing them with physical eyes or feeling their touch on our skin but just about feeling them in a spiritual way.

Also, we've had some remarkable experiences with physical signs appearing at certain times as if they were sent by my mother. I don't want to tell what that sign is here on this forum because it's too special to my family. But I would guess that a mother who has passed on would have special interest and concern for her children and be allowed to watch over them from heaven at times.

I've been to several temple weddings where the temple sealer has said that deceased members of the family who were close to the ones getting married are able to visit and be present at the ceremony. My brother got married after my mother died. When the sealer mentioned this we all burst into tears (as if it wasn't emotional enough that he was finally getting married at 36) ;-) No one said afterward that they saw her but it was so comforting to know she was actually there with us.

A book that I have read and really enjoyed, "Beyond Knowing" was written by someone who isn't LDS but works very closely with deceased and their families. She is a forensic pathologist named Janis Amatuzio. I recommend you google her and look into reading her books. They are fascinating and heart warming.