JohnOF123

I cannot trust my feeling, or what I feel that God is trying to tell me. Muslims feel their religion is true also. To me, this is not a Biblical truth test. Let me illustrate a few reasons I believe this. Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Proverbs 28:26 “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall he shall be delivered.” I have to search scripture like the Bureans did. Acts 17:10-11 “And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea; who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether these things were so”. They didn't trust what they were told by faith or by prayer. They searched the scriptures and God called them more noble for this. 1 John 4:1 “…believe not every spirit but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone into the world.” 1 Thessalonians 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good”. Now do you see where I am coming from? I have to read, and study and search scriptures. I can't just pray, ask God and believe the feeling I get. But I appreciate the vote of confidence and the sincerity! (also, I haven't come across contradictions, only grammar mistakes and misunderstood context)

I'm not saying I would reject NEW information. I'm saying that if I read information that completely contradicts existing information, that's when everything gets rejected. The Jews rejected Jesus even though the OT (the Torah) spoke of Him. So He was indeed in their scriptures but they still rejected Him. So I'm not looking for something that can be interpreted this way or that, I'm looking for doctrine that is completely opposite or contradict that of the Bible. BTW, the OT completely supports the NT and never contradicts it. I would expect the Book of Mormon and doctrines to do the same. Might be getting off topic here, what were we talking about again, lol.

Yes, however we need to compare scripture like the Buereans did. God called them more noble for doing that. The only problem here is that I would be trusting in a feeling that I am getting. That is dangerous because feelings are powerful and I don't have any way of knowing where that comes from. The Bible warns me not to trust my heart. It says that my heart is deceitful and wicked. So I only have the Bible to use as my ruler. I will start reading the first page as you mentioned.

Well as I mentioned to you in another thread yesterday, I am willing to... however I wound need to see these doctrines in order to search the scriptures to verify the books are from the same source. I know you mentioned some doctrine I can look at will be found in the book of mormon, but are there any other written doctrine that the LDS church consider official doctrine that I can look up somewhere online? I image that main church's website might have this information? If this is indeed where I can read all the doctrines, then what is that offical site, lds.com? mormon.com?

CS Lewis is a great theologian, good quote you pointed out, but it's just what I've illustrated. God created matter. He created all things. Before there was nothing that was made, Jesus was God, and was with God [Father]. This is taught in John 1:1. God cannot lie. I have to show you something about hermeneutics, staying in context. Now we know Gods Word cannot contradict itself, so if we read passages as you mentioned above that illustrate that God can lie, BUT then we read the following passages that clearly proclaim that God CANNOT lie, then we have to come to a different conclusion since claiming that God can lie would only be a contradiction. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie 1 Samuel 15:29 The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. 2 Samuel 7:28 Thou art that God, and thy words be true. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began. Therefore, whether by sending a man to trick you (doesn't make God a lier), or a man to kill you (doesn't make Him a murderer), God has the right to judge you in these ways but it does not make God a lier; He cannot lie, it is against His nature, and therefore impossible.. Hebrews 6:18 "It was impossible for God to lie." {That's fine Pam, it did look a little "jumbled up for some reason" ty}

I can understand that you believe something to be fact, but I have to point out that you are reading way too much into the text. These scriptural references aren't related with the subject. Some Hebrew nouns have a gender – either masculine or feminine. Some Hebrew words have dual form, those passages wouldn't tell me that God is trans-gendered. Perhaps in this case you could read up a little on the Hebrew language. Another great study skill can be obtained by a Hermeneutics course; they also have great books on the subject. I'm not trying to be condescending, I truly am trying to be helpful here.

This is just my own personal explanation of the day I was "born again". Feel free to comment or share your new birth. Sorry it's a little long! I grew up Baptist. I was taught at an early age that if you asked Jesus into your heart, and said the prayer (and believed) then you were saved. So both me and my brother grew late into our twenties believing that we could live how ever we wished and we had some golden ticket to Heaven. Anytime I felt guilty about my lifestyle, I convinced myself that since I believed in Jesus, I was saved. But I noticed something odd. When I would flip through the radio stations, and a Christian show would come on, why would I suddenly want to change the channel immediately? Why would I hear Christians say they were exited about the second coming of Jesus, and I was fearful of it. It wasn't until the age of about 29 that I noticed the sin in my life was getting deeper and darker. The lust was getting darker, the alcohol was turning into drugs (I'm not one to do drugs), and I even began to think wicked thoughts about God Himself (I hated thinking those thoughts). I started to get worried. I thought, "If this is how much worse I've gotten by 29, then how bad will I be at 49"? The concern was growing. One day I was messing around with drugs and I thought I was gonna die; I was really scared. I told myself, "I think if I die right now, I might be going to Hell". That night passed... and I felt a strong urge to quickly find out if I was really saved or not. I started looking at Christian videos on the Internet, I started reading and listening to the Bible. I was hearing things I've never heard before. Things I couldn't believe until I read it in the bible for myself. Things like: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:22-23) "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14) I thought, "how can this be"? I thought that many people were going to Heaven, not "few". I thought all you had to do was believe (intellectually and truly agree that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins). I started reading other passages that said it was better to gouge out my eye then to enter Hell sinning. I thought, I have to try hard, I don't want to go to Hell. So that's what I did; I prayed to God to save me, and I tried to stop sinning. I didn't feel too much differently, and this worked for almost a couple weeks. Then I fell deep back into sin again. I fought and fought, and read and read, but I was fighting a losing battle. I couldn't stop. I pictured myself cast into Hell. I finally gave up. I went in a dark room, fell on the ground and cried. I cried out to God, "Lord save me! I give up! I'm going to Hell and I can't stop myself. I can't do it. I've wasted 30 years, and if you don't save me, I'm going to waste the last 50 too. Please God, I give up, I can't do this." I laid all of my burden on Him, repented and gave up. I died to myself. I fell asleep exhausted. The next morning something was very different. Have you ever woke up, stirred around for a while and then you remember "ohh yeah, so and so happened last night?" Well it wasn't like that at all. The INSTANT I opened my eyes, like a snap of the fingers, I saw the world spiritually. As soon as I woke, I suddenly now had an eternal perspective on life, and sin. This was defiantly different. For the first time, I was alive. I was alive spiritually, I had just been born again. I don't know if it happened before I fell asleep or the instant I woke, but I was alive. For the first time, I had this new 6th sense; a moral 6th sense. A constant awareness of right and wrong. An awareness of light and darkness; Hey, I knew right from wrong before, but this was like the sensitivity was enhanced 100 fold. Let me explain it like this: It was like this WINDOW of awareness was opened between Heaven and Earth that wasn't there before. Like I constantly felt like I was being watched. Not in a paranoid way though, more like a revelation. It showed me that LIGHT [truth] had always been shining down on me [and everyone], and you either stayed in it, or hid from it, in all things you do. I don't know if I described that very well. There were other elements to this new reality, this new birth if you're interested in hearing more, but I don't want to take up ALL of the space on this website, lol, so I'll stop here.

Haha, I felt an urge to entertain myself there.

lol, yea us men are lost without women. But as the book of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are all different accounts of the story, it has been accepted that these two accounts of the creation of man are also talking about the same event. But I was mostly trying to get my point across about the whole "God's image".

Did you hear that for a time there will be no women in Heaven. Read for yourself. Revelation 8:1 "When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."

I mentioned this yesterday but perhaps it would all make sense once we look at how God also told us that we need to "Conform to the Image of Jesus Christ". Wouldn't it be make sense to conclude that we are "made in the image of God" by having moral character as He does, emotions, ability to use logic, etc.. We were created a thinking, loving being as God is, but not necessarily looking like Him. Similarly we are supposed to conform to the image of The Son by morally and spiritually changing, not with plastic surgery. God didn't decide to make woman until He saw that man shouldn't be alone and could not find a suitable helpmate among the existing creation. Hope that helps a little from my view of things

Can God create a rock so heavy He could not lift it? The quick answer is Nope. But the explanation is more important to understand than the answer... The question is based on a popular misunderstanding about the definitions of words like "almighty" or "omnipotent." These words do not mean that God can do anything. Rather, they describe the amount of God's power. Power is the ability to effect change - to make something happen. God (being unlimited) has unlimited power, and the Bible affirms this (Job 11:7-11, 37:23) (2 Corinthians 6:18) (Revelation 4:8) etc.. Therefore, God can only do whatever is possible to be done. God cannot, however, do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power one has, it is based on what is really possible. The truly impossible is not made possible by adding more power. Therefore, unless context indicates otherwise (e.g. Matthew 19:26 where man's ability is being shown in contrast to God's), impossibility means the same thing whether or not God is involved. Example.. God CANNOT make a circle square. So, the first part of the question is based on a false idea - that God being almighty means that He can do anything. In fact, the Bible itself lists things God cannot do - like lie or deny Himself (Hebrews 6:18) (2 Timothy 2:13) (Titus 1:2). The reason He cannot do these things is because of His nature and the nature of reality itself. God cannot do what is not actually possible to be done, like creating a two-sided triangle, or a married bachelor. Just because words can be strung together this way does not make the impossible possible - these things are contradictions, they are truly impossible in reality. Now, what about this rock? A rock would have to be infinitely large to defeat an infinite amount of lifting power. But an infinite rock is a contradiction since material objects cannot be infinite. Only God is infinite. There cannot be two infinites. So the question is actually asking if God can make a contradiction - which He cannot.

Another great sermon jam comin' at ya! Enjoy...

YouTube - War John Piper Sermon Jam Sermon Jam Great video about the WAR of spiritual warfare!

Here is a quick sample video of one popular prophecy about the city of Tyre. God said it would be destroyed, and whenever the Bible says something, it always happens. YouTube - BIBLICAL PROPHECY ABOUT TYRE-MUST SEE!!! There are better videos about prophecy, but the one is just nice and short. A longer but more professional version that speaks of Tyre can be found here YouTube - The Bible: Proof of Prophecy - Part 1 however the first 3 mins is just illustrating that life is short. The rest is prophetic. But on another note, if you want to see a GREAT video about end times prophecy from an Islamic world perspective, watch the link below. This could be on of the best conferences you've ever seen! It is probably close to an hour long but you will know the future. It has to do with showing you the real relationship between ISLAM, JUDAISM and CHRISTIANITY. The first 8 minutes this guy Walid Shoebat pretty much introduces himself, but the rest is absolutely amazing. Pay close attention and you will be wowed! There is absolutely no propaganda or anti-anything in the video. Prophecy Islam and the Bible. Walid Shoebat former PLO terrorist

Because it [The Bible] has proven itself to the World (and me) by its impeccable Prophetic record, not to mention every time it mentions a major event which atheist are skeptical of, it ends up being supported by science and archeology and then proven. Even the Smithsonian has used the Bible in assistance for research and discovery. It's record in prophecy is 100% accuracy, and there are over 1000 specific prophecies made in scripture. I can give you some great examples if interested. If God could write a book to set it apart from a book that any man could write, it would be one that would tell the future. No man can see the future with 100% accuracy, only God. So if men have a book known to be the Words of God Himself, I have to start there. I saw the references to passages in the Book of Mormon that you mentioned. Is that where I can find all of LDS doctrine? Thx...

I don't know... I think you are 2 steps ahead of me. Before we jump into believing "modern revelation", if we are to stand on Biblical ground we would have to be good Christians and test it to see if it is from God. Did you do that first? I don't know all that this "modern revelation" says, but does it all align with what God's Word says? This is what I should do Before I accept new revelation. Is there a good link you might have to point me to doctrine that I can compare to what God has said in the Bible. Sorry I cannot just accept this so quickly without obeying and searching the scriptures to see if this "modern revelation" is of God, like the Bereans did. I looked up "Book of Mormon", is that where all these doctrines are about pre-existence?

I would say "return" implies it came from God, not that we lived with God before we were on Earth. That's called eisogesis. Careful, this is what the Gnostics believed.

I almost can't believe what I'm seeing. You think the fall was a good thing? Do all LDS think this? It's called "the fall" for a reason. It brought death! sin, disease, murder, hatred, etc.. Adam and Eve had perfect communion and fellowship with God. When they rebelled against Him, that fellowship was broken! You cannot assume that Eve couldn't procreate without knowledge of Good and Evil. God told them to fill the earth in Genesis 1. The Apostles also did not seem to agree; they held a bad light to these events. Timothy 2:14 "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Were all the curses listed in Genesis 3:16-19 for sinning against God a blessing? Read 2 Corinthians 11:3-4. Paul does NOT want you to imitate Eve and be "deceived".

I would agree that Baptism is not how we become born again. In John, Jesus illustrates that God is like a wind blowing where it wishes, no one knows where it will go. This tells me that you cannot "tie down" the new birth or invoke it with a Baptism. I also said that prayer as a child and thought I was saved. I believed and ended up living like the world for the majority of my life. It wasn't until 3 years ago until I was truly born again. I came to the lowest point in my life and fell at the foot of the cross for mercy. I finally gave up and offered my life to Jesus. The very next morning, everything was clear, everything was new. I had spiritual eyes. I had an awareness 24/7 I never had before. It was obvious. I could go on and on, but this creature is nothing like that old one! Praise God!

There are several passages such as Psalm 139:7-13 (...If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea...) That's part of it. If you need some more references, let me know. God is not only omnipresent but also omnipotent and omniscient. Romans 8:29 I see your point. Jesus has two natures: human and divine (Col. 2:9 Phil. 2:5-8). But Biblically, God the Father does not. But I agree with you that matter can exist in heaven. John 4:24, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” Luke 24:39, “See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. So if God the Father does not have a body of flesh, then what about the God in the OT that people saw? Now in Exodus 24:9-11, 74 people saw the God of Israel and under his feet there was a pavement of sapphire, etc.... God was seen in human form in the OT, right? But Jesus said in John 6:46 that no one has ever seen the Father. So, if God was being seen in the OT, but it was not the Father, then who was it? (Pre-incarnate Christ) In 1 Timothy 6:16-17 it says that God dwells in unapproachable light whom no man has seen, nor CAN see. I have to believe the Word.

This scripture does not say that the spirit lived with God before birth and then returns to Him after death. It says that the spirit will "return to God who Gave it". The Bible teaches that God creates our mortal bodies and then forms a spirit within us. Giving, creating and forming something is a completely different thing than reproducing or procreating it.

I see what you're saying. I'm just trying to be as scriptural as possible here. I think what you are saying is that God has flesh (organic body) and bones (calcium based framework). This sounds foreign to me. So try to understand my thought process here and help me out. (#1) I understand that the Bible says that God is spirit John 4:24. And (#2) in Luke 24:39 Jesus says that a spirit does not have flesh and bones. Now we do not know what a spirit is, but we do know what it is not. Adding to that, we know that God is everywhere at all times. A body would mean that He is material (matter), etc. Now time is a function of the existence of matter. Since God is outside of time, eternal, He could not be "material". Therefore, He cannot have a body because he could not be omnipresent. This logic seems both plausible and Biblical to me. I'm not trying to prove anything new, I'm just pointing this out and illustrating it in terms we can understand. Could you possibly illustrate similarly how God "could" have flesh and bones Biblically and logically as seen above. I'm really just trying to understand all this and so far can only see the one side of the coin.

For me, it happened instantaneously rather than as a process. For weeks I was trying to "do good", trying to please God, convicted of my sin and then... I finally gave up. I cried out to God and decided to not trust in myself and truly trust in Him. I was crushed by my sin and cried; I begged for mercy. The next morning, it was like a light came on in my soul. The instant I woke up, I had spiritual eyes that could see and feel. All my wants, desires, tastes were different. It is like a sixth sense I suppose. And there are other elements of it also, like it seems that I am always conscience every second of the day of God. I'm telling you, the night before I was a wreck, and the next morning I was a completely different person. Total transformation. I was born again.

When God told us that we need to "conform to the image" of Jesus Christ, and when Jesus said that God is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit... wouldn't it be more logical to conclude that we are made in the image of God by having "moral character", emotions, ability to use logic. We were created a thinking, loving being as God is, but not necessarily looking like Him. That seems more Biblical to me. What do you guys think?