[17 Miracles for a non member.]

Suzie may correct me, but my recollection is that the accounts for a couple of the miraculous incidents recounted in that movie are unreliable for a variety of reasons. My opinion is that when relating Church history to non-Mormons our facts must be above reproach; and that would be my primary concern with showing the movie to anyone. (Incidentally: it is known that some Mormon Battalion veterans were with Kearney when he cleaned up the Donner campsite and buried the corpses, but I don't believe we have any hard evidence that Savage himself was one of them.)

I don't think that they would dig too deep into the history of it, so if there were liberties with details like the Donner party then that wouldn't be problematic. If some of the miracles are tenuous, then I am still in the clear, as I can say "we THINK" this happened, but this DEFINITELY happened" and get away with it.

Thankfully for me, my parents are older and not inclined to dig this stuff up :)

[17 Miracles for a non member.]

I picked up 17 miracles from Netflix and have been mulling about showing it to my non member parents. Ephraim's Rescue I think did a lot of good showing the power of God being in the church, I say this as my Mom commented on it,saying we used to be closer to God, or something like that.

The thing I can't figure out though is if I should show the this one, especially given Richards and Willie's rebuke of Levi Savage, and then him being "vindicated" by so much hardship.

I don't want to do more harm than good, but the miracles we pretty stirring, and that could be good, but I don't know if the tradeoff of blasting someone for disobedience is worth it.

What do you all think?

Thanks!

[And now, infinite regression has me up till 2 in the morning...]

Sometimes I wish I could be content to understand that it is probably not possible to see outside of our "box".

But I sit here and try to figure out how God is either A) Always God, which seems to go against ye olde King Follet discourse, or B) Not always God and seems to not answer where everything came from.

Any thoughts? I'd imaging "Deal with it" is nigh approaching :)

[The priesthood, God's or Gods?]

Further we learn of Jesus praying for us to all be one even as He and The Father are one. Therefore I find it more than plausible that any number of Gods are one with each other and therefore just as accurately called God as opposed to Gods.

After my little rambling I submit my answer to the original question of the priesthood being God's or Gods is YES.

And when I think about the constructs in my own mind, I think this is the case. Just as we can/will be one with God and in that way will BE gods, we are still one. In this way, if there are other Gods they are still one, as it's simply what we become.

Mind you all this does is shift the question of where we came from or where God came from up a level, but it does seem to work.

[The priesthood, God's or Gods?]

A thought came to me as I was studying the priesthood over the last few weeks.

I know it is the power of God delegated to men, but is he the source, or does he simply delegate authority GIVEN him?

I guess this goes into "infinite regression" and so on, but it is a thought I had.

What do you all think?

[The spiritual experiences of others.]

And that seems to be my only out, aside from doubting myself, is that it isn't his time, or it simply isn't the spirit. It's so much easier to doubt myself, as I fully have an out for the central pillar of my testimony...

[The spiritual experiences of others.]

I know I have at least touched on this idea before, but, what should I do to reconcile the spiritual experiences of others than run counter to my own?

Example:

My Brother (Pentecostal), describes experiences with the power of God, and the Holy Spirit, physical manifestations, also describes the same spirit telling him to stay away from the BoM.

I know my brother, and in many ways he is like me, lived as a pentecostal for decades, had no real manifestations of the spirit in the way others around him did, and then BLAMO, feels the spirit physically manifested to him, and still pentecostal.

I don't know what he felt, but I can't shrug it off like I can people I don't know, because I Know my brother and I know he wouldn't lie, this is the same situation I am in with my mother.

What do you all think, where can I turn on this one?

Thanks!

[Divorce]

How is it we believe in divorce when the NT seems to forbid it in cases of anything other than adultery?

I did some digging for other topics but couldn't seem to find anything (or I don't know what to search for...)

Thanks for the thoughts!

[Is there a point when this should stop?]

That's probably right traveler, maybe, I have to work it out in my head, but it very well could be a fear of truth, or possibly since I want the church to be true, and all of it doesn't have answers that satiate me (or ones that I am fine having, but since I can't answer anyone else, it bothers me) makes me worry I am in fact afraid of the truth.

I apologize, don't always articulate these feelings properly, especially when I don't understand exactly what they are myself...

[Best way to answer this?]

All of these comments help, I think I need to address some deficiencies in my own testimony before going too much further down these roads though. All additional insight is welcome though, and thanks to everyone so far! As always you guys are pretty Johnny on the spot to help me when questions come up and I run out of mormons to ask who will know what I am talking about :)

[Best way to answer this?]

Do we believe celestial marriage was taught by Christ definitively?

[Best way to answer this?]

"But you don't believe that Jesus gave us all that we need to be saved through his Apostles that he walked on Earth with. You believe what one man said 2000 years after Christ saved us by dying on the cross and leaving us His instructions. The Mormon religion adds to what the Bible says and that is just wrong."

Doctrinally I don't know how to answer that given I don't fully know she. Each of the ordinances for exaltation were introduced and in which dispensation. What advice or scriptures can you all think of?

[Is intelligence finite, and if so...]

Yeah Eowyn, that's entirely possible :)

[Is intelligence finite, and if so...]

Skousen's teachings on intelligences relative to the atonement is one of my favorite talks, pretty deep stuff, but awesome nonetheless...

[Is intelligence finite, and if so...]

Wouldn't that lead to a potential finite number of spirit children?

I ask because, if I am rembering right, are not our spirits made of intelligence?

If that be the case how does that relate to eternal progression? We know God posses all truth so progression doesn't lead to new knowledge, I was under the understanding that it is the growth of the eternal families we are in that increases the glory of God.

If that is correct, wouldn't there be a finite number of spirit children, and seemingly trouble for "eternal" progression, or does this lead us back to the names of God in D&C 19?

Or perhaps I am,

A) Thinking too much,

B) Have flawed premises,

C) Both

D) Just have to wait...

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Is there a point when this should stop?]

It's ironic you mention that verse. It was the first verse of the Book of Mormon that I would say I "felt". I had uttered those words almost verbatim months before I started investigating the church. My mom asked me if I believed in God anymore, my response was, I want to believe.

[Is there a point when this should stop?]

That is correct, I have been off the log for quite some time and now I am working on my faith again. But yeah that was what I was asking, your opinion if you felt that was normal to feel those things even at baptism be you are supposed to be sure of what you are doing.

[Is there a point when this should stop?]

And Anatess, I want to believe that. The wall I am running into seems to be the fact that, because I want the lds church to be true, and because I try to stick in the faith promoting areas of stuff a good portion of the time, I feel like I am running from God, and because I don't want to go to church wi my parents because of this worry I am running, and NOT willing to follow the spirit.

[Is there a point when this should stop?]

In my mind it would confirm my parents (the Pentecostals) were right all along. This seems exacerbated by the idea that when I am around those of the hard headed "very forward almost to arrogance in their beliefs" type of persons I feel like they see through me and that I know better than what I am professing.

[Is there a point when this should stop?]

You know it's funny Loudmouth_Mormon. I can't necessarily put my finger on a specific doubt, its just this ongoing worry ill start speaking in tongues and have to leave the church, and this worries me, and sense I don't want that I have this idea that I don't truly want the will if God sense I don't want to do that.

[Is there a point when this should stop?]

Is it normal to even have been present so early, even when I was baptized? It may be, my expectations may be off. I know the spirit works in a still small voice and the tree of faith/testimony begins small so I may just be thinking wrong.

This is in reply toBackroads just to be clear.

[Is there a point when this should stop?]

I am sitting in my parents church right now and I feel the feelin I have been unable to shake in the last 3 years of my membership. That I am uncomfortable here and I have the feeling that they will say something and I will know the church isn't true

I know this is a lack of testimony I think. And I know I am only very recently getting back into doing the things I should be doing so I figure I will need to wait, but I worry because even when I was baptized I remember these feelings, I would love for them to just stop and my belief be strong enough to exist outside the church walls and my home and work and be able to sit in the midst of many who don't believe and not have worry in me.

At thoughts?

[Talk about God not giving reasons.]

I knew it was Oaks, and now seeing it was on Fair explains why I remember it :) I still think there may have been something else, but that will do perfectly I think.

Thanks mordor!

[Talk about God not giving reasons.]

Does anyone remember the talk which I believe was from GC, perhaps a devotional about God not always giving reasons why he commands certain things. I want to use it when discussing the Word of Wisdom with a friend.

I think it was Oaks, but I can't find it.

Thanks for any help!

[Dumb Question]

Anddenex, I have always found the word choice "remission" interesting in relation to sin. It paints sin as a cancer, that we can drive into remission by the grace of God received by obedience to the gospel. I certainly don't want to wander out so far I am back in sin, but yeah I do need to stay on the log as it were...