Rosabella

Maybe this quote will help clarify. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Search When you click the Encyclopedia of Mormonism Explanation: Spirit Prison Spirit Prison - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism It seems to be an approved statement because LDS.org links to it. This is what it says:

Another quote. This is right off of LDS.org About what Hell is. Hell

Pam It is funny how the Lord works sometimes. I am glad I followed the feeling I had today and that it assisted you :)

You are very welcome. That is interesting you were looking for this quote. I have not been on this site or posted in a long time but felt like should look at this site just now and then saw this thread and felt I should post these quotes. Prompting? :)

Here are some quotes I found on this topic:

I converted similar to you. I was searching for the true church and found many attacking the LDS faith. They said all kinds of weird stuff about Mormons which ended up not to be true. I found what is called a Missionary Pal. It was a little book that was like a quick topical guide that helped missionaries get to scripture topics quickly. What I did was read it to see all the doctrines of the LDS faith (This was before the internet LOL) I would look up all the topics using the bible's Scriptures and sure enough all doctrines of Mormonism were right there in the Bible. I found that all the stuff that was being thrown at me that was anti-Mormon was just silliness and unfounded. What exciting time this is for you! I know it was for me :) I am very happy for you! Use Mormon.org as suggested before (I wish it had been there when I was searching) and get a hold of missionaries and you can always find a ward near you to just attend. I went to Church for a while before I joined and found it to be the opposite of all the stuff I had heard. Same once I went to the temple. It was beautiful and nothing close to what lies are spread about it. I have never in my 20 years now being LDS found anything that did not fit the Bible. May God Be With You Rosabella

This ends my discussion with you. This has gotten silly beyond absurdity. Arguments can be made out of anything. I can say the sun is the moon and the moon is the sun and argue you that I am right because of Historical context, linguistics, subjective refection etc. This is only arguing for argument's sake and is no longer a discussion but has degenerated to absurd intellectual games, which is contention and in which I have no interest in participating. I am willing to discuss and even debate ideas but not when it degenerates into this.

Mocking my deceased mother has won no points in your favor. My point is History, Scriptures and Prophets seem to differ from your view on the Constitution. You may find other Historians that do not agree with my mother's findings for they are against the Constitution, but I dare say you will find no prophet to back you. I think D&C 101 is pretty simple and to the point. God said "I established the Constitution of this land". If you do not believe the D&C and God's words that is fine. But you cannot recreate what the scriptures and prophets have said.

Godlessness is not independent of the social system. The essence of any form of "state-ism" is that they encourage or require worship of the state in place of God. You cannot have a powerful central government such as is necessary to run a socialist or communist society, without it developing into state-ism, whether the founders intended it or not. Let's look at it this way. Can the city of Zion be built under Socialism? Would we be allowed to set up an independent economic society such as the United Order within a system that required absolute integration with the powerful state? I think the answer is clear. We at this time cannot legally even use the barter system precisely because it is not taxable and therefore not under the control of the almighty state. Food coops are being raided and shut down. Why? They are no real threat, but again they are not playing in the system that the government demands from its slaves. When the Saints fled to Utah they were able to live without much interference from the federal government. Where can we flee to now? Where is a safe place to build Zion. We are told at some point Zion will be built in Missouri and it will not be part of the world's government, socialist or communist or whatever it might be at that time, because it cannot exist with those kinds of systems. The point that the Constitution has nothing to do with God and is Godless only works if you do not believe the words of Prophets and the writings of the creators of the Constitution. My Mother was a Historian of this very subject and it very clear what the founders intended and created. It is misrepresented when God is taken out of the equation of the Constitution and the founding of this Country.

Anything that helps people is not necessarily socialism. Socialism is when the government owns and controls the principle industries such as agriculture, utilities, education, health-care, transportation, and much of the root manufacturing industries such as mining, oil refining, etc. It also can imply that the government owns all land and that citizens "rent" it from the government (We call it property tax). Private ownership is usually limited to retail and small scale manufacture. We do not truly own our property even once it is paid for out right. If we do not pay taxes every year on said property we lose it. The government takes it away. So do we at this time really own property? No. We pay a huge deposit (cash or mortgage) then pay yearly rental fees (taxes) and if we do not meet those rental costs we are evicted from our property that we thought we owned. This is not owning property, this is bondage.

What social system creates the social programs is what is important, not just what the programs are. A godless system will make godless laws and godless programs. The constitution was not godless but was changed to become more godless over time, but that was not its original intent. Therefore the original Constitution is far better then what it has degenerated into. The Church has clearly stated that its programs are not socialist or communist. The important piece that people miss is that God is in charge of the Church and its programs not man. All the other social systems are man made. The constitution in its original form we have been told clearly by Prophets is the way the Lord wants government to be structured in this terrestrial world, because it is the best suited to protect free agency for man to chose His Gospel or not. This is the only governmental system the Lord has stated He approves of and of which He said He inspired the authors. For me it is simple and clear when I read the words of Prophets. There is only one approved "tool" to use. All the rest are of men or the adversary.

Here is a good reason why the Church stays neutral on politics, This is straight from the IRS. Charities, Churches and Politics As you can see the freedom of speech of Churches is forced to be silent on matters that could be conceived as promoting or opposing candidates. Therefore Churches must be very careful to stay completely neutral in public comments. This neutrality or silence does not show the lack of position, just the lack of their legal ability to state it openly. You can note this drastic change when looking at talks prior to the legislation and after. After the laws were changed we only get statements like this: "long grip of godless communism" or "freed from Communist rule" "After many years of Communist hostility to religion, these countries were suddenly and miraculously given a measure of religious freedom." If we look back during the years prior to these laws, our Church was very open on political matters and very forthright on where they stood. This is the great sadness resulting from socialist laws. They start to take away freedoms of speech. There were reasons why the laws were made at the time that appeared practical, just as all socialist laws do, but when one is searching for guidance from Prophets of God and they are silenced not by God but by laws this is a great tragedy. Our country was based on freedom of Religion and Speech, but is slowly turning to bondage. We were warned that if we strayed from the Constitution religious freedom was in grave jeopardy. We are being warned the same now with the New Civil Rights. We are told they will take away our freedom of religion. Will we listen this time or dismiss it as not possible?

Continued:

Since the question keeps coming up "What is socialism?" What does the Church mean when it talks about socialism?" What does the Church mean by the United Order?" "Is socialism or communism the same as the United Order?" Lets read from one of the most detailed Conference talks on the topic that answers these many questions. In this General Conference talk the definition of Socialism and the United Order were laid out in great detail. It shows what the Church's definition of both are. I will contiune the talk on my next post. That section discusses the differences.

So then maybe the reason they are seem more quiet now is that we are more socialist now and therefore have far less true freedom of speech We are being warned now about how our freedom of religion is now at stake by the "New Civil Rights". Which is just an extension of socialism's grasp we are under. They have not stopped teaching the same principles. Presentations*–*BYU–Idaho The focus now is just having the rights of freedom of speech and religion. It no longer is just warning of communism or socialism it is warnings about the specific threats to our very freedoms we are going through and will go through because of the socialist changes that have already occur and are continuing to occur. These will jeopardize our religious freedom. LDS.org - Ensign Article - A New Civil Religion They have not changed their position. They have only gotten more specific.

Yes there are members that believe in Socialism. But I ask to please share any Prophet and Apostle quotes that say any of them has supported it. All the quotes I find on the topic are against communism and socialism. I am not talking Democrat or Republican just Socialism, Communism or even Fascism. All the quotes I find back the US Constitution as the Divinely inspired document and state that Socialism and Communism are its opposite and condemning them as even Satan's counterfeit and anti-Christ. I would love to see any quotes that say different by the General Authorites.

That is a very good question and one it took me a while to understand, for we should and must feed the needy, cloth the naked etc. Or we are failing one of the two greatest commandments which is "love thy neighbor as thyself". The Bible, Mark chapter 12 verses 28-31 28 ¶ And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. So the two most important commandments are first to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and second to love your neighbor as yourself. How do we do this? It must be from the heart and we must be the ones to decide and willingly do this. Neither loving of God can be forced nor can the loving of ones neighbor. It must be something we choose or it is not righteousness. We cannot be forced to worship God and be called his sheep or followers. One cannot be forced to love his brother as himself and be called charitable and truly loving. These things must be by choice not force. Blessings of God and fulfilling commandments must come from what is in our heart and actions, not merely from the outcome of forced actions. For me personally I look forward to living the United Order. I have am very much willing to consecrate all that I have and all that I can do for God and my brothers and sisters. The highest commandment is to consecrate all to God. But there is a difference between consecrating all to God and to consecrate to a government not run by God. I would say the reason that LDS do not believe socialism or communism is because it requires forced righteousness and not love freely given. If it is forced by a government it is no longer consecration but the government taking or stealing from one to give to another. If a man gives without coercion of his bounty to the needy his is blessed. If a man's bounty is taken from him without choice how can the Lord bless him, for he did nothing from his heart? It was taken from him and he had no choice. He also has no choice in how it is used. It could go to funding things that go against the laws of God when governments use the money. Analogy: I am hungry and I come to you and ask for food and you willingly agree to give me food in my time of need. Or I go to your neighbor and his says he has no food for me but then comes to your house breaks in and takes food out of your house then feeds me. Do you get the credit from God for this action? No. I am fed but by what means. Was it stolen or was it given? The neighbor gave it to me but did you? Is the neighbor blessed for stealing the food? For giving to be a pure Christ-like means it must be given from the heart freely and honestly. In the action of giving it through our agency and not being forced is wherein lies the blessing of God, not in the mere fact one was fed. If the neighbor came to you and asked for food for me and you agreed, then you would be blessed of God. You will be blessed even more if you sought out those in need and gave to them. As LDS we do this through our fast offerings, or time spent working in the canneries, the Bishops Storehouse, and volunteer work etc... We are told not to build up treasures on earth but to build treasures in heaven. We are told to build the Kingdom of God on earth and not build up private empires. If one is not doing those things then they are failing in one of the two greatest commandments. We are not forced to do those things. We are asked to and if we do them with a willing heart that seeks to help the needy, not coerced or forced then we are doing what the Lord has commanded. It should never be forced upon men. It should come from their desire to help. Otherwise it really is stealing from them which fruits no love or eternal blessings. The United order is voluntary. No one forces you to participate. It is done by ones own conscious. Socialism and Communism do not encourage the first commandment to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. They actually discourage it because the "ism" needs you to give it all of your heart, soul, mind and strength to support it. So they end up in competition with Religions for your bounties. Here are some talks by LDS leaders that say socialism or communism is not the United Order but a counterfeit.

For me personally I look to the Prophet and Apostles to help guide my life in all areas. I search what they have said regarding all matters including politics. I feel that if God is speaking through His mouth pieces, which I believe, and they speak about politics I should listen. The Brethren concerns expressed mostly have been over moral issues, not issues between political parties, but they make it clear what systems of Government can best fruit the Gospel Plan. It is the systems like Communism, Socialism that are the concern not as much the political parties. Republicans, Democrats, Independents etc. can expose and promote Socialist or Communistic ideas and platforms. We must understand the Constitution and what the Church leaders have said about that to understand the big picture. We have been told that the Constitution is a divinely inspired document, created so the Gospel can prosper. The other systems of Government limit ones right to freedom of religion. What we are seeing now in society is the right of freedom of religion being threatened. I thought this was a good talk I was reading today. Meeting the Challenges of Today by Neal A Maxwell 1978. Some highlights from this talk:

There are lots of answers to this very question by GAs. I would rather quote them than my own thoughts.

No it devolved to "I am right" versus "The Prophet and Apostles are Right" :lol::lol: Sorry I could not help that one I think everyone needs to take a big breath and relax. If one does not want to believe all that they Prophets and Apostles say that is their right. If one wants to believe all that the Prophets and Apostles say that is their right also. That is the beauty of free agency. Who is right and who is wrong will be up to God to decide not us.

The Brethren do not claim infallibility. But I would trust their words over anyone on a this forum or in the world.

My stance on this thread is primarily to state that what the Brethren say at conference is to be taken not with a grain of salt as many have alluded to, but to recognizes the Brethren when speaking at Conference are wearing the mantle of Prophet, Seer and Revelator. If not at Conference then when are they wearing the mantle? It should be clear and quite obvious that they are speaking as God's mouthpieces at Conference since they speaking to the whole Church and the world proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ and calling all to repentance. I am not quite sure where these statements come from about the Brethren always disagreeing with each other I find them to be very much in agreement. I could post pages of quotes where the Brethren have stood on Communism and Socialism and even how it is of the devil and a counterfeit of the United Order. If anyone would like me to post those I will. They only echo President Benson's warnings. My intent was not to go into the political details but state my complete faith in the Brethren and the fact that if my view differs from theirs I am the one that molds my view to fit what is said at Conference and within the publications of the Church. I am not a blind follower, I seek out to understand the whys but I do not doubt that what they say is correct. I chose this religion. I picked it out of all the worlds religions. I believe it is the Restored Church of Jesus Christ. I do not pick and choose what I will accept or reject from the counsels of Prophets and Apostles. I have already decided the Church is true and so are the doctrines and I seek out to understand them better. When one feels they need to pick and choose what they deem as correct or incorrect doctrines that the Prophet and Apostles state at conference and in Church publications they are on a very slippery slope to apostasy. Every apostate Mormon dismissed things that the Prophets and Apostles have said. Some then reject the words of other Prophets in the Bible and even the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Where does it end? We might as well say all the prophets of the bible merely stating there own opinions. I chose to believe and have a personal testimony and witness that God does call Prophets to guide His flock. We have the choice and the freedom to not listen to their words, but that does not make their words any less true words of God.

We wonder how the Israelites after seeing the great miracles performed on their behalf could so quickly turn to idolatry, sin and faithlessness when Moses tarried in the mountain. I am sure the conversations then were the same as now. "Oh Moses is just a man, not everything he says is necessarily the word of God. He has his own opinions, we have a right to our own opinions. Why is he any more knowledgeable or inspired then we? Are we supposed to wait on every word he says or can we not think for ourselves? We can know truth for ourselves , what makes him so special? He is just a man as we are." Are we so different than the Israelites? Look what happened to them. The earth opened and swallowed them up. Are we not taking the same path as they? God has promised to cleanse His Church before the Second Coming of Christ. In this great sifting will we be found as wheat or tares?

I would not disagree that President Benson IS controversial. The same is true today of Elder Oaks and Elder Packer. We can go back further. Joseph Smith is a controversial topic, so is the Lord Jesus Christ for many. Pretty much all prophets through out history have been controversial. Look at Noah he was mocked and was ridiculed and laughed at until the rain fell. Jesus Christ was crucified because He was controversial. I would be more worried if he was well-embraced by the world then that he is rejected. There are prophets that have gained respect from "some" in the world but not the majority. Just my thoughts on being controversial

My husband and I know some of the GAs and their families personally (my husband is related to a member of the first presidency) and I have met with them regarding research they requested from me. I also have friends and a family member that have met with them regarding research they requested. In my personal conversations and meetings with them they explained how they make decisions for the Church and how they all get along so well because of having the Spirit communicating truth to them. They are not quiet about how the Church works. They are actually quite open when you talk to them about it. Having known many of them and knowing how truly humble they are it saddens me when I hear false claims about them. I personally heard from the mouths of other GAs how they felt about President Benson and his teachings. It does not come close to what is spread falsely around on forums and by the murmuring of members.