MaidservantX

Maureen, Who says agnostics and atheists aren't living the gospel? :) I am sure people with these types of world views do experience the spirit and blessings from any universal principles they are incorporating into their lives, which a person like myself would call 'the gospel'.

Quoting "For five weeks, they attacked gray-walled Jerusalem. They hauled timbers from 30 miles away and built moving battle towers. Under a rain of boiling pitch and Greek fire, they advanced their towers and rushed across blazing drawbridges to engage in hand to hand fighting on the walls. They took the city; and for two days and nights, they slaughtered men, women and children in houses and in churches, down alleys, over roofs. On the sunken pavement around the Mosque of Omar, their horses charged fetlock-deep in human blood. Only one little group of citizens survived the massacre . . . of Christian faith . . . The Crusaders found Christians everywhere they went -- for the simple reason that Christians had been there all along. For a thousand years, Christians had been living peacefully among the Moslems, along with Armenians, Albanians, Greeks, Copts, Marenites, Druses, Jews, Parsis, Hindus, to mention a few. 'Let there be no violence in religion,' Mohammed had cautioned. ' . . fight for the religion of God against those who fight against you; but transgress not by attacking them first.' It was Europeans who had the habit of starting wars; it was the Europeans who massacred heretics, down to the last infant. They killed the Albigenses, the Waldenses, the Socinians, the Huguenots, the Covenanters, and many others. Five hundred years after the Crusades, both Protestants and Catholics were alternately seeking refuge in the American wilderness to save their lives from European fanatacism. . . . [The] ranks of Christendom would charge forward [in the battles in the crusades] with the full-throated roar: "God wills it!" . . . the Saracens . . . with a ululating cry that sounded to the Crusaders like the howl of wolves: "La ilaha illa-l Lah" -- There is but one God! When the Crusaders left Jerusalem to attack Ascalon, they were already adopting the Saracens' battle tactics. But they were still unable to guess the uses of their loot. At Antioch, their bewilderment had been pitiable. They sat down on beds and leaped up terrified by the movement beneath them -- they had never seen a mattress before. They were mystified by the draperies, carpets, cushions, leathers, linens . . . the unknown metals and strange utensils were equally puzzling. Gingerly they sniffed at flaming liquied in queer containers - they had never seen an oil lamp before. They tasted and spat out a white powder, delicious but perhaps poisonous -- it was sugar. In small gold boxes, they found tubes with jewelled stoppers, containing other strong tasting substances. How could they understand cosmetics? The cosmetics used by the Saracen women were quite similar to those of today. No other women in history were so well groomed, until the present generation of Americans. In contrast to the European castles, with their rude stone walls and their floors littered with rotting reeds and bones, the Crusaders came into rooms that were like jewels -- with tile floors and mosaic ceilings . . . for the first time they learned about glass. This, indeed, was a country of demons and devils; all Europe heard that it was. The most amazing thing to the Crusaders, however, must have been the cleanliness. It seemed that everyone was always bathing [Europeans did not bathe] . . . . the heathen Moslem bathed five times a day. It was Mohammed's idea; he was almost fanatically clean . . . he insisted that a clean, healthy body is essential to a clear mind and a pure spirit; and as a part of his plan to keep religion on an informal, personalized basis, he tied physical cleanliness to prayer. Let every man repeat five times daily the truth that there is but one God -- no pagan gods -- and before saying this, let him wash in running water [not standing water; or when traveling through the desert, scrub with sand is ok]. So the Crusaders came into a country where everyone was clean. Fountains were everywhere. Moslems sensibly did not interrupt business to recall that there are no pagan gods -- they bathed and repeated that fact in their streets and bazaars. Anyone who wanted a fountain built one. Everything was on the basis of individual initiative and voluntary co-operation."

quoting "Progress continued for 500 years, until Saracenic Spain was three times as old as the United States is today. Then from darkest Europe, a half-million fighting men set out to attack the Saracens in faraway Palestine. This unprovoked aggression began a world war which lasted until the United States Marines subdued the Barbary Pirates in the mediterranean harbor of Tripoli in the year 1804. Pirates they were, but they didn't know it. They thought they were still fightin the war which the Europeans had launced against their forefathers. [going back] For more than a century, officials of the Church had been trying their best to make peace in Eruope. first, they decreed the 'Peace of God', but no one paid any attention. Then they declared the 'Truce of God', which called for a long week end lasting from Wednesday night until Monday morning. The idea was to induce the ruling classes -- the barons and the knights -- to take that much time out from their fighting, giving the farmers and traders a chance to work in peace . . . But on Monday, tUesday, and Wednesday, the barons and the knights could get on with the job fighting for their frontiers, killing off useful peasants and serfs in the process. . . . Pope Urban II, perhaps in sheer desperation, summoned all the barons to a great council and made a speech that roused them to frenzy. He called on them to put aside their petty quarrels and to unite in a common cause -- to free the Holy Land. He offered forgiveness of sins to every man who enlisted, and he promised eternal reward to any who died in the effort [lol, sound familiar?] His speech deeply moved his listeners and aroused a natural yearning to get out of Europe and into heaven . ..The Saracens had held the Holy Land for 500 years, and during all that time, Christians had worshiped unmolested at its Christian shrines . . . But these facts were evidently unknown to the Crusaders . . . after killing jews and nonbelievers all through the Germanies, nearly half a million Crusaders crossed the Bosporus into Turkey. They besieges Nicaea, but the Christian Emperor in Constantinople allied himself with the Saracens and sent his troops to defend the city. Then the Crusaders moved on to ancient Antioch. They devastated the country so thoroughly that they themselves almost starved. It is reported that under the eyes of the guards on Antioch's walls, some of them cooked and ate the flesh of the Saracens they had killed. They were unable to take the city by force, but a Christian commander of the Moslem troops let them in secretly by night. They massacred most of the population; and while bodies rotted in the streets and wells, a mysterious sickness came upon them. As they resumed their march toward Jerusalem, they were astonished to find that the homes and villages along the way were deserted. How had the Saracens known they were coming? [they assumed black magic and devilry although they did find out eventually that carrier pigeons were used to send messages, which they also couldn't understand and attributed to magic] . . . an envoy from the Sultan of faraway Egypt met them en route with a conciliatory message which urged that they fulfill their vow to thePope and enter Jerusalem as peaceful and welcome pilgrims. [the Europeans crusaders couldn't read the messages, they had a translator and they did see that the Saracens referred to them as 'a race of dogs, stupid and quarrelsome' and intended, in the name of their Faith [shades of Moroni's title of liberty], to defend themselves and fight viciously.] In two years, the Crusaders had fought only two battles and a few skirmishes. They had unsuccessfully beseiged two cities and had taken Antioch by treachery. Out of almost 500,000 invaders, only 30,00 reached Palestine. There they found palm groves, vineyard, and orchards of figs and sweet pomegranates; but the villages and towns and white-walled Ramleh were deserted. A hundred Crusaders rode into Bethlehem and found it to be a Christian town, built around the Cathedral of the Virgin Mary. Monks and priests entertained them royally. Then they rode back toward Jerusalem and came to the peaceful Church of the Blessed Mother of Christ, in the ancient Garden of Gethsemane on the mount of Olives."

p70 L. Tom Perry "Our Eternal Father did not send us to earth on an aimless, meaningless journey. He provided for us a plan to follow. . . . Quoting from the missionary guide Preach My Gospel: 'God is the Father of our spirits. We are literally his children, and He loves us. We lived as spirit children of our Father in Heaven before we were born on this earth. We were not, however, like our Heavenly Father, nor could we ever become like Him and enjoy all the blessings that He enjoys without the experience of living in mortality with a physical body . . . we understood and accepted this plan before we came to the earth' . . . We first heard about the plan of salvation before we were born, in what the scriptures call our first estate (see Abraham 3:26). What occurred in this first estate is dimly understood, but we do know that we lived there as spirits, children of our Heavenly Father, and we made certain steps of advancement to prepare for the opportunity of housing our eternal spirits in earthly bodies. We also know that our Father held a great council to explain the purpose of earth life. We had the opportunity of accepting or rejecting the plan of salvation. It was not forced upon us . . . A leader was selected to teach us how to follow the plan and to redeem us from sin and death . . Jesus Christ, our Elder Brother, became the leader in advocating the plan designed by the Father, and we accepted the plan and its conditions. With that choice we earned the right to come to earth and enter our second estate." p 103 Larry W. Gibbons "You lived with your Heavenly Father in a premortal life. You were there with Him. Your spirit knows what it is like to live in celestial realms. You can never be truly happy in an uncelestial environment. You know too much.[the speaker's italics]" I think that is all from this most recent General Conference. Happy pondering.

p67 Thomas S. Monson "As we pray, let us really communicate with our Father in Heaven . . . When we remember that each of us is literally a spirit son or daughter of God, we will not find it difficult to approach Him in prayer. He knows us; He loves us; He wants what is best for us."

p49 Marcus B. Nash "In order to have that joy, you need to understand that, as a child of your Heavenly Father, you inherited divine traits and spiritual needs -- and just like a fish needs water, you need the gospel and the companionship of the Holy Ghost to be truly, deeply happy. Because you are the offspring of God (see Acts 17:28), it is incompatible with your eternal nature to do wrong and feel right. It cannot be done. It is part of your spiritual DNA, as it were, that peace, joy, and happiness will be yours only to the degree that you live the gospel."

The most recent World (General) Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was held back in October 2006. The addresses given at that conference are presented in text in the November (2006) issue of the Ensign magazine. I wanted to skim through all of the talks (I have been studying them for a couple of different things and reasons) for words regarding our premortal life. I thought it would be worth sharing with you, also. p31 Elaine S. Dalton "Our personal mission began long before we arrived on the earth. In the premortal life, we were 'called and prepared' to live on the earth at a time when temptations and challenges would be the greatest. This was 'on account of [our] exceeding faith and good works' and because of our 'having chosen good'.[see Alma 13:3] We understood our Father's plan and we knew that it was good. We not only chose it, but we defended it. We knew our earthly missions would be fraught with temptation, challenges, and hardship, but we also knew that we would be blessed by the fulness of the gospel, living prophets, and the guidance of the Holy Ghost. We knew and understood that our success on this earth would be determined by our worthiness and purity." I will give other quotes as I continue to skim. p35 Daniel Johnson "The Lord knew from the beginning that we, His children, would be faced with temporal and spiritual adversities during this mortal life. Indeed, these adversities are a vital part of this mortal probation. He knew that we would stand in need of His blessings throughout our lives in order to not only survive our individual trials, but also to enjoy a degree of comfort and even prosperity."

We could 'semantic' the idea of 'martyr' to death. It doesn't matter if Joseph Smith falls in the category of 'martyr' or not as a matter of technicality. It is a handy word to describe what happened to him, but it isn't some kind of catechismical stamp upon the event. I believe I have heard it said that he sealed his testimony with his blood. I don't know if that is in any scripture, or just a phrase that floats around. Before he went to jail that last time, Joseph (and Hyrum) did try to escape and hide from the people that were coming to capture him; I think he was going to cross the river. When I read that story, I personally get the sense that he was scared out of his mind. But then there is the scene, just as he was to go over the river, where he was borne upon by the feelings and fear of the members, the consequences to them if he didn't go to jail, so he said something to the effect that if that was all his life was worth to his friends, then it wasn't worth it to himself. (Somebody help me and make this more accurate, lol!) I expect it didn't take a prophet to get a pretty good idea that this time around -- going to jail -- he wasn't going to survive it. I'm sure he was going to do his best to survive it, if possible. There's no shame in that personally or religiously.

quoting "The Mainspring of Human Progress" by Weaver. "It is to the Saracens that the world of today owes much of its science -- mathematics, astronomy, navigation, modern medicine and surgery, scientific agriculutre -- and their [these sciences] influence led to the discovery and exploration of America. In the world of the Saracens, no authority suppressed scientists, and no policeman harried them -- nor did any government take care of them. They opened schools; and from Baghdad to Granada, students flocked to them. Some of these schools grew into great universities, and for hundreds of years they continued to grow. The Saracen universities had no formal organization -- Mohammed contended that too much organization leads to corruption. The rules were few. There were no standardized programs, no regular curriculums, no examinations. to guard against the fallacious idea that education ends with graduation, the Saracens' schools granted no diplomas, no degrees. They were institutions, not of teaching, but of learning. Classes were held on an open-house basis. Anyone in quest of knowledge was free to wander about and listen. If he decided to remain, he picked a teacher and privately discussed with him what he wanted to learn and what he should study, and they agreed upon a fee . . . When he had learned what he thought he ought to know, he quit school and put his new knowledge to practical test. For 800 years, the Saracens' schools and universities proceeded on the principle of freedom -- on the basis of voluntary agreement between teacher and student . . . They studied the works of ARistotle, Galen, Euclid . . . past discoveries and techniques of the Greeks, the Chinese, and Romans. . . They deduced the shape of the earth and its movement surrounding its axis and around the sun, and they gave the Europeans the information that the earth is round, along with calculations of its measurements. They invented the sextant and the magnetic compass, which made possible the navigation of their vessels on the opne seas, beyond the sight of land. They provided Christopher Columbus with the instruments and the carts which he took with him . . . the thriving city of Venice was carrying on a prosperous trade with the realistic Saracens [he's jumped to the 13th century here for a moment]. Indeed, it is significant that the whole Renaissance, the so-called 'revival of learning' in Europe, should have arisen so inexplicably in the long, narrow peninsula of Italy, with Saracen civilization brilliant at its tip and with its every port opening into the Saracens' sea. [now back to the earlier chronology] Precisely 100 years after Mohammed died, some of the SAracens moved into central France. A frantically assemble European army attacked and stopped them near Tours; but they remained in southern France and in Spain. The fanatic Europeans looked upon them as followers of the Antichrist -- the mystic body of Satan on the earth -- and the Saracens regarded the Europeans as crude barbarians. In Spain . . the Saracens built great centers of learning and art, science, production and commerce. From India, Africa, Cathay, students came to universities in Spain and people in Spain went to universities in Cairo, Baghdad and Delhi. Farmers in fertile southern Spain poured into the cities and increasing abundance of food and raw materials; and out of the cities poured an increasing wealth of woolens, linens, cottons, silks, mosaics, enamels, porcelains, glass, and gloves. Ships thronged the harbors -- unloading spices and ivory and comphor, tempered steel, wrought silver and brass, horses, saddles of leather softer than velvet."

quoting "Medina was situated on an important road to Mecca. An increasing number of pilgrims stopped off to hear Mohammed, and he converted them to the belief that there is but one God and that the Meccan were idolators. This had serous economic repercussions. Mecca's income was cut at its roots, and the city crashed into its worst depression. Its people concluded that they could not live in the same world Mohammed's ideology . . . With archers, spearmen, and cavalry far outnumbering the total population of Medina, they quietly approached its outskirts before dawn. [then describes a battle, including a miracle of invention that allowed Mohammed and Medina to defend themselves and that, among other things, confused the attackers. The attackers eventually returned to Mecca. Also news of this amazing battle spread throughout the known world.] After six years in Medina, Mohammed traveled back to Mecca as a peaceful pilgrim -- but prudently accompanied by 30,000 good fighting men, amply armed. A deputation met him outside the city to welcome him to the holy sanctuary, in which no blood might be shed. The Meccans accepted his religion, and the pagan idols were removed from the KAABA (630 A.D.). Two years later, Mohammed died. Historians have never seemed able to explain the terrific expansive force of Mohammed's influence. Carlyle marvels: ' . . . as if a spark had fallen, one spark, on a world of what seemed black unnoticeable sand; but lo, the sand proves explosive powder, blazes heaven-high from Delhi to Granada!' Schoolbooks lay great emphasis on European history, ancient and modern; but no point is made of the fact that, when Europe was stagnating in the so-called Dark Ages, the world was actually bright with a civilization more closely akin to what we have in America than anything that had gone before. Thirty generations of human beings who believed in personal freedom created that civilization and kept it going for 800 years. In the deserts and the mountains and the steamy fertile river valleys, from the Ganges to the Atlantic, these people were of all races and colors and classes, all creeds, all former cultures, all former empires. They included Buddhists, Christians, Moslems, Jews, Hindus, Mongolians, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Armenians, Persians, MEdes, Arabs, Greeks, Egyptians, Phoenicians, hittites, African, and hundreds of others whose ancient ancestors had worn the soil to dust before the earliest dawn of history. There is no one name that correctly applies to all of these people. The Europeans, who hated them, called them 'Saracens'." More later.

From 'Mainspring' by Weaver "From far and wide, pilgrims came to Mecca to worship a strange, heavy, black stone which was believed to have descended from the heavens. Lesser gods surrounded it, and the most famous poets of the day displayed their rhymes in the holy KAABA that sheltered the sacred stone. Mecca made its living by serving pilgrims . . . So Mohammed's blasphemy not only shocked the more devout Meccans, but also the merchants and tradesmen had grave misgivings as to its effect on business. But Mohammed went right on saying what he thought, pointing out that Abraham, Moses and Christ had stated these same truths. He was convinced that the priests had corrupted Abraham's teachings when they assumed authority over the Jews. Christ had attacked the priests and reasserted the truth. Now the priests were corrupting the teachings of Christ by assuming a controlling authority over the Christians. Mohammed concluded that formal organization brings the danger of corruption; that each person is responsible directly to himself for his thoughts, speech, and acts, that God will do the judging. The pagan priests pronounced their most blasting curses against Mohammed, but to no avail. The plain people thronged to Mohammed's home in increasing numbers. [Mohammed and followers were harassed.] Many of Mohammed's followers did leave, but this had an effect opposite to what had been hoped. Those who left spread Mohammed's ideas to other places; and many visitors to Mecca spent their time listening to Mohammed instead of worshiping at the shrine of KAABA. In spite of the ban against bloodshed in the holy sanctuary, Mecca's more respectable citizens -- including the tradesmen -- took the law into their own hands. They organized a vigilance committee and stormed Mohammed's home with drawn knives and sabers. But Mohammed ws no longer there. Together with his family and companions, without haste or confusion, he had made tracks for the South [the meccans followed, bu then Mohammed went north without leaving any tracks] He was headed for Medina, a small town in the palm groves, where people lived mostly on the date harvest and flocks of goats and sheep. For some time past, he had had a standing offer to come there and be is emir." More later, about happenings in Medina. By the way, the whole book is not about Islam. It is about liberty, and refers to several cultures and movements.

Quoting from a chapter in "Mainspring . ." (written in the 1940s) 'About 1,400 years ago, a self-made businessman began the second major attempt to establish individual freedom. Born in the year 570 A.d., he was an orphan - -of good family, but cheated out of his property inheritance. As a child, barefoot, ragged, and hungry, he worked 16 to 18 hours a day and slept on the bare ground under the sky. He had no schooling, but he had practical ability. He got ahead and, as time went on, became widely known and respected. He traveled, buying and selling goods throughout the greater part of the then-civilized world. Babylon was long forgotten, and the Roman Empire had ceased to exist. Europe, sunk in the barbarism of the Dark Ages, was less important than Africa is today [?sorry his words]. Constantinople -- surrounded by the thriving cities of Baghdad, Damascus, Antioch, Alexandria -- had become the center of world trade . . . Shrewd, humorous, and friendly, he is more interested in human relations than in problems of trade. He marries his employer, a woman of business ability. [and here Weaver writes as if it were in this century] Comfortably well-off at middle age, they retire to live . . . He and his wife keep open house. They serve coffee to their friends. The entertainment is conversation. The host's opinions are so unusual that for some three years he is rather reserved in stating his views, lest they sound too radical. But little by little, he begins to express himself more openly, and friendly arguments originating in his living room begin to spread over the town. He agrees with Abraham and Christ: The pagan gods do not exist; there is only one God -- the God of Truth and Rightness -- who judges men but does not control them; each individual is self-controlling and responsible for his own acts; all men are brothers. The man's name was Mohammed. His ideas created terrific excitement because he was expressing them in Mecca, the shrine of the most renowned pagan gods." More later.

Google Henry Grady Weaver to get his philosophy (the author of The Mainstream of Human Progress). Here's a site to get you started -- refers to Mr. Weaver at first, you can drop off reading the end of the essay. http://www.libertyhaven.com/thinkers/henrygrady/henry.shtml By the way, CK, I tried not to imply that the restoration needed the doctrine of the Islam religion as its foundation. I simply mean (after having read Mr. Weaver) that Gabriel visiting Muhammed (may well have) set off a chain of events that lead to greater and greater liberty in the earth and as manifested in the arising of the United States (and thereafter a place for the Restoration). Not that my theory is better than yours, but I like it for me, lol.

I was doing a little reading this evening and came across this cool scripture. D&C 88:41. But then go to D&C 88:68. So there is no contradiction for a 'body' God concept and a 'omni' God -- we just haven't got to where we understand yet how that all goes together. Also back up a bit and now read D&C 88:66-67. This whole section is awesome. Also now read D&C88:46 (trying to help us understand) thru 50. "Nevertheless the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God." D&C 88:12-13. Sweet stuff.

Since very few of us have read the Qu'ran (I've read excerpts, but it has been a very long time ago and I remember none of what I read) nor the history of Islam, none of us can answer this well. (Google time!) I'll give you the tidbits I'm aware of and you'll laugh at my lens. Muhammed married a woman that had been married previously. An older woman. Muhammed was rather a young man. She encouraged Muhammed and inspired his endeavors as well as financed them. She also spoke freely about the same kinds of matters he did -- spiritual ones. She did not live in submission to Muhammed nor did he think that she should. I don't think Muhammed claimed to have been visited by God. He does tell how Gabriel visited him and spoke to him -- I don't know the content of those instructions from Gabriel. Islam is a rather young religion -- in the 800 A.D.s I think (could be really wrong on this). What were the people believing before they began to listen to Muhammed? It seems apparent from the story traditions in Islam that resemble the ones given in Judaism (and thereby Christianity). Also there is some reference to Jesus, so there at least was a 'news' report of those events available to Muhammed in the culture he arose from. How much did he get directly from Gabriel and how much did he simply become inspired regarding the knowledge and doctrine he already possessed? As I have pondered the subject of other religions (other than the Restored church) and their purpose on earth and in God's plan, and as I have asked him about it, I came to see other religions as gifts to the people, to allow them to have as much light as they sought as individuals and also to provide them with edicts that would allow them to enjoy as much physical health as possible in the lands and time periods they lived in. I was disturbed that Muhammed claimed to have heard from Gabriel and that just seemed wrong, not how it ought to go if he was a true 'prophet' or spiritual leader, but as I have asked God I have revised my understanding at that and I am completely flabbergasted and joyous that God sent Gabriel to inspire the young man Muhammed IN PREPARATION FOR THE RESTORATION OF HIS CHURCH IN AMERICA A THOUSAND YEARS LATER. I said in another thread and I'll repeat here, to read the small volume "The Mainspring of Human Progress". This volume is not the newest thing, it is a few decades old at least. The author shows how the Muslim religion and all of the things that arose from it (not unmitigated good necessarily, but the whole of the religion and the culture that adopted and thrived from its teachings) eventually led to the European Renaissance and from the Renaissance there is a direct line of thought to the point which the United States of America is founded in liberty. Of course, the author says nothing about Joseph Smith, knowing nothing about him. But as an LDS, I have always been taught that one reason the United States was created was place for the church to be freely restored and so I was amazed that that seed was planted way back when God sent Gabriel to Muhammed. Islam is not the anti-christ. This conflict that is in the world, seemingly in the name of (a) God, is not so much for Christianity to route Islam, as it is, in my opinion, for the sincere believers within Islam and within those countries that practice Islam generally to arise and lay hold upon more light and shed their shackles; and some of that may mean LDS missionaries in those countries. Not to say that there isn't quite a bit of prophecy laid upon this geographic region and the idea of a final conflict, which nothing I say contradicts that; a very few zealously evil people can wield the whole world into chaos -- for a time -- it's happened before many times. Until righteous people of all beliefs and traditions realize that they are the ones with the real power by laying hold on more and more righteousness.

This is wonderful to bring up; however I am not as well read in philosophy as you and cannot speak to Kant or Buber, etc. However, I would say that in Lectures on Faith, I believe, Joseph Smith spent some time on the attributes of God, and his perfection, and that our trust in him can only hinge on the fact that his nature is perfect (he listed specifics). It's been awhile since I read it, so it may be worth a re-read on my part. Also, throughout the scriptures, but there are some particularly lovely ones in Isaiah, I read and was able to realize in my heart that God (the Savior, but also Heavenly Father) NEVER gets weary of helping us a redeeming us. We judge him as a man but we don't realize that he is beyond mortality and has complete power and desire and love to help us. However, this person (Ostler's) thoughts may hinge on the concept of God's progression, which is a worldview I accept -- 'a follower', I like that. I do imagine that celestial forces are forces that are 'accessed' by 'progression' -- external, as said. As well, in the opposing, the scriptures teach us that we can overcome all and have all (lower) kingdoms subject to us -- this also refers to forces in the universe (of which we have dim understanding in mortality and of which the gospel and it's commandments are the crucial Cliff's notes). There are two other thoughts to add to this, though, and I am not preaching doctrine, only sharing where my thoughts have led. First is that, there are 'points of no return' at either end of the good and evil spectrum. Here in mortality we have some very specific (and unstable!) conditions that allow us to have a probation in contact with both good and evil and yet eventually still come out clean (so much more could be said about that!). But the rest of the universe doesn't operate like that. The practical application of what I mean is that the devil is never going to repent and become good, and Heavenly Father and the Savior are never going to fall or choose evil -- those kinds of available conditions are in mortality. God is past the point of no return. Although his agency is retained, he doesn't choose on a moment to moment basis whether he is good -- he has become God, and his godness will never be undone. I don't know if I'm expressing myself well enough but this does lead into my point number two -- whereas in mortality we can only be AGENTS of good or evil (manifest these forces, channel them, place them into the physical world by our acts), God in his eternal, exalted, celestial condition (that we are all seeking for as well), has indeed become a source and generates light and other forces -- from his body and spirit melded together (the exalted soul). Having said that, I like the explanation you and Ostler bring forward of why love is the law. I like it just how you said it. Happy thinking

I am proud (? let's see search for a better word) -- I am really glad to be a Mormon. I love being a Mormon. I don't mind calling myself a mormon or hearing it from others. Within the last decade in one General Conference, one speaker gave a really good talk about how we really are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (and to not be called Mormons). But then President Hinckley got up and laughed and he confirmed the goodness of the term Mormon, as well. By the way, the church has www.mormon.org as a site for investigators. When I speak to people, or refer to myself (see my profile on the site), I do try to say the entire name at least once "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Sometimes I will even just say "The Church of Jesus Christ". Because I don't want there to be any mistake about it and I want people to know. But I don't like saying LDS for the same reason, because to people who've never met us yet, it means nothing. I wish we would think about the term 'Saint' a little more. It's an amazing concept. It means we are sanctified (or moving in that direction). It bespeaks of the power of the atonement and its effects on the elements of our body and spirit to create ourselves in a new (terrestrial, celestial) condition. It's something I'm still thinking about -- that God wanted that word in the name of the church. also, on those public service commercials the church does, about family and similar topics, they always end by saying "From the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The Mormons". I think!

I always imagine a paradasaical world where all people have a lot more rest than they do now. I imagine I would read, play, explore nature, garden, needlework, spiritual discussions, build a gazebo, go horse riding, etc. In that kind of world, there would not be this crazy choice between survival and kids. It just wouldn't even be a part of the paradigm. As a woman, I would be perfectly loved, by my mate as well as by my sisters (all the neighbor women). If I were pregnant and expecting a child it would be a perfectly sacred experience and my health would be optimum. I would glow and glow, and glow some more. When the time came for the birth, even though it would be a challenge, it would be a time of celebration and triumph, and again, unutterable sacredness. I would be surrounded by my sisters and my mate would be there. I would be laughing and not crying (I have had births both ways for real!) I can't imagine that under these conditions that having many children would be a problem either way. It would just be. And then your children join you as you read, play, explore nature, garden, have spiritual discussion, etc. In this mortal life, the opportunity is to do our best to create this paradise paradigm, including the place that children have in it. However, some of may have the 'children' part of the paradise down good, and others of us may have the 'build a gazebo' part down good. We are all trying to learn and things don't turn out like paradise without A LOT of effort and maybe not even when we are making a lot of effort. We plant seeds but the weather comes between the planting and the harvest. If you go to my 'why I work' post, you can see that I do NOT feel the need to choose between my life and my kids. I create my life, which in practical application includes what some might call career choices, AND my children come with me. Gosh, I wish I could say a lot more, my thoughts are coming in a rush, but this is a start.

for your information, here are some quality television shows that are going to be on this week. i give the Eastern times, so you will need to check your local listings to make sure the times are right for your area. "My life as a child" TLC, Monday, Feb 26 7pm [a documentary about 3 different children's lives through their eyes] "Robin Hood" (a new version) BBC America, Saturday, Mar 3 9pm "Explorer: Aryan Brotherhood" National Goegraphic Channel, Sundaay, Mar 4 8pm [this show does not advocate Aryan, but does dig deeper into its danger; might be worth knowing] "The Dark Ages" History Channel, Sunday, Mar 4 9pm "Edward Scissorhands" FMC, Sunday, Mar 4 6pm "Wild Strawberries" (Ingmar Bergman)TCM, Thursday, Mar 1, 2:15pm

LOL, Nate! Ok, this commandment is just like everything else -- do not run faster than you have strength, and yet be diligent. Popping out one baby a year is NEVER going to be for everyone. Hopefully, though, the things that cause us not to have another child are not worldly reasons; but what does that mean exactly, either? I know I had children before I was ready to and at way too young of an age for me. AND YET, I have become who I am because I have parented those children and I'm grateful to know them. And maybe this is cliche, but number six has been the most fun of all. I am so delighted and tickled that he is my little boy. Every day I whisper in his ear (he's one year old) "I am so lucky".

I was just looking for more people to talk to -- a chat room. I was on singles sites but I wanted MORE!!! I don't know, ha ha. Just trying not to be lonely since I don't have the freedom to go out and play whenever I like. I came on when it wasn't as fancy as this. I remember Lindy and Acez (I still see Ace about). But I did forget about it until the Buddhist sent me a personal message and then I came back on and just got re-interested, especially since I've given up on my singles site. You know I like to talk -- anything about words -- so this is a good place to be. It can be a wild ride sometimes, which is just as good, too, wasn't the jackvance incident one for the books? Also I have had two pervs proposition me since I've been on this site, so that does increase my love life a little. Ha ha. But I like that every one is unique but respectful and I like the non lds perspective and I like the opportunity to bear my testimony and share.

For me, depression is not just from one thing. It is from a net of factors and the overwhelming trigger could come from any direction, as well as the trigger that keeps me balanced and peaceful, I never know what direction that is going to come from either. You just take it a day at a time like every other human does. You try to learn little acts to do as much as possible that tend to help and support your psycho-physiology. Also you can think of it as a checklist -- is such and such a part of my life? If not, try to learn and do it. If it is, and depression is still experienced, then keep going to learn something more. I know this sounds odd to have a 'to do' list when that is the whole point of depression is non-functioning, but do your best. A concrete example is -- do you take a high quality multivitamin every day? (and not a jar of $5 Walmart special -- find a high quality brand). If you are not doing this concrete little thing, you might want to try it. I think people underestimate the role nutrition plays in depression. I know that has been true in my case, at least. Another thing I have to deal with, and this may sound roll your eyes to some, but my experiences and ability to function sometimes lie around the portion of my female monthly cycle I am in -- and I have learned to get a lot of things done when I am 'high' and then make sure I'm just doing the essential, priority, basic stuff when I'm 'low' (like hugging kids -- #1 priority!). Since I haven't learned how to 'get rid of' this particular force of life I am subject to. After saying all this, I have learned that depression has a purpose and you are depressed for as long as you need to be. We want to 'get rid of' the depression and hate ourselves for being depressed, but it is a tutor and our body and soul needs depression to process trauma and it may not be best to rush it sometimes, but rather to be gentle and care for yourself and do quiet life things and be satisfied with that, while depressed. I have not cut myself, but I do have a pleasure sensation that accompanies most kinds of pain (I'm sure I haven't experienced all kinds of pain, nor do I want to, to prove this hypothesis!). For example, I just read a book that said in order to break a bad habit, I should wear a rubber band around my wrist and snap the rubber band everytime I was going to do the bad habit, and I'm like, right, that would NEVER work for me, because the rubber band snap would work as a reward! So, I don't know, this hasn't become something that gets in the way of life like cutting probably would, so I don't have any advice except to share. God bless your journey. That's what it is. You are on the same one we all are. You are going to end up with knowledge from these trials -- you'll know the Savior and you'll know how to heal others.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=damn I couldn't paste the words in here, it wouldn't let me select, so hopefully you can open that page. Also, this page is interesting, first few words in the paragraph. http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/judges.html I'm glad you got me started looking, CK, sometimes I forget where I found things out. What you bring forward is going to cause me to continue considering the matter. Dale, you are a very wise person. The last reply, I'm not sure what you mean. I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me or both. :) I think the bottom line of what I mean is that we, as mortals, need help. Christ needs to help us. Grace is a good word. As a Latter-day Saint, I believe that power and grace is in covenants. Some grace is also just free to everyone, sort of lying around and about us is how I imagine it, since the fact that we live and breathe (I believe) and have our being at all comes from Christ. I also believe that God answers prayers and sends the spirit to any sincere seeker. But I would like to think that eventually he would reveal his covenants to that sincere seeker. Why be baptized at all if a baptism did not effect some protection against Satan? It would otherwise seem useless to me. You speak of a future where a coffee drinker (??) is going to (maybe, probably, it doesn't matter exactly) be in the Terrestrial Kingdom. That is my point. That earthly coffee drinker (if it's just coffee we're talking about -- that's actually a pretty mild example) is MOST likely going to be in the celestial kingdom if what? If he loved his family and others -- is it Traveler that makes that point so well? People worry so much about what they are going to be approved of for the future eternity, and I'm just saying we have to get through today, first, and we can have grace power to do so. Also we keep using the word Satan. But we don't have to meet him personally to be affected by his chains. When we have knowledge, spirit, obedience, etc. etc., we are safe: we're safe from the effects of coffee; of poor media choices; of not knowing how to forgive; safe from a lot of things. Of course, we can't be perfectly safe in mortality -- it's a pretty hazardous, knockabout place. But that's ok. I think we were really safe before we came here and we'll be really safe after we get done with the test. But right now, we're on a specific Adventure!

What do you write, CK? It's just me, but I don't like the words 'matriarchal' and 'patriarchal'. :) To me, in our current societal world view about those two words and their contexts, they restrict rather than reveal meaning. However, I'm sure you didn't mean to push THAT button on me, lol. But yes, in this world/ story, the women own the property and the production, collectively for the sake of the families they are raising. They possess the religion, or cosmology. Men that become husbands enjoy these things through their wives. Men do have a great deal of responsibility for the leading and teaching of their children. The men do have networks as well, with brothers and other male relatives. I might point out that when a woman in our world is asked by a man to marry him and she says 'yes' to him, then she has pronounced his worthiness. The main character (first person narrater(sp?)) in this story is a young woman and the main thing she has to overcome is herself - it is a rite of passage type of story and where she has to decide (or not) to accept the role she is supposed to have in her society (some might call it rigid roles, which is how she feels) and accept her self and realize her inner identity. The climax of the story for the whole community is a blow up battle between the men who don't have women and the rest of the community -- as you might imagine lots of tension there. There is also some Savior/ atonement imagery going to take place, but I can't tell you how because I'm not completely sure how to give that. Also, one choice she is going to be involved in is that she and another young man -- who is pretty obviously never going to be pronounced worthy for wives -- fall in love. So does she go against everyone to choose him? Or does she realize the wisdom of the way of her community? I am still writing this story so it is kind of wordy and emotive still. I try to make that stuff a little more precise when I revise. Here is the very first paragraphs of the story. By the way, the working (but not necessarily final) title of the story is "Male Sacrifice" so that may tantalize you with where I am attempting to go with it. Chapter 1 When my father comes to see me, I always feel as if I am the end of his journey. I feel as if he kindles my life at strength abundant enough to last until the next time he visits. Now that I am a little older, I think that this perception of mine may not really be so. I know that he loves and touches and speaks with all of the other Women That He Has and his children. But when I was very small, I would alert at the very first intimation of his presence in our Home. I believed that he looked at me first. I would be far across the huge main inner hall. I would be bent at some little task, such as folding cloths into exact and smooth squares. I would know that he was Home and look up. Always his eyes met mine. I thought I knew that the walk he took through the hall was for the purpose of reaching me. I thought all of the other Women and children were interrupting him and delaying him with their smiles and hellos and touches and longer conversations. He was not done until he came and knelt on one knee before me. "Hello, StarSarah." He touched my nose. "Let me hold you." Then I would be wonderfully lost in his chest and robes and arms. I would feel his chin pressing my hair. If I said, "Look at what I did," and pointed out to him the results of my work, he would answer, "You love to make things smooth and exact." Then he would pull out a flower or stick or some tiny Thing That Got Left. "Such laughter!" he would exclaim under his breath in awe. He never taught me about my job or told me whether I had done well or if I had made an error. Mother often spoke to me this way. But my father always forgot about my jobs even if I started to talk about them. Instead he would tell me about myself. All of this is still true, of course. The only thing I realize now is that all of the other Women and children feel the same way. I am not the only destination nor the only treasure. This miraculous condition that binds him to us, and us to him, is one I often ponder. Now I am eleven years old. My father came this morning and he found me at my job of milking goats. I jumped up to hug him. "StarSarah!" he greeted. When he put me back down, I remembered to loose the goat and set the pail where it would be stable and cool for several minutes. "Are you still going to take JeremiahOak and I hiking early tomorrow?" "Yes. You two meet me at the gates of your Home at a short time before the sun rises." He continues. "Sing me something, daughter." "Not today," I blush. "Not today?" he teases. "Then I guess I will have to wait for some sort of Convocation. I often think about your sweet voice. I remember the hymn you gave two months ago at the last Children's Celebration." I reached into my pocket. "Look what I found a couple of days ago--a Thing That Got Left." Into my father's open hand I drop a black plastic circle. There are tiny circular holes in an even design in the flat of the circle and ridges around the edge. "I know it's a part, but I don't know what whole thing it belongs to." He nods. "This is a very interesting Thing." He gives the dial back. He puts his hand on my head and kisses my forehead. "I will leave you now, but I will see you again this evening at Feast and Worship." I observe as my father walks the distance to the pig pen. PaulBadger is perched up on one of the posts for an afternoon's lazy entertainment of watching the fat, snorting animals. The brother livens when he sees his father coming toward him.

Seeker, I'm glad you think women and wives are rewards!!! I am writing a science fiction fantasy novel that has as one of its elements, or themes, polygamy. Here is an excerpt you all might find slightly interesting. [the head priestess is speaking] "There is," she said, "a husband tonight." The squirms, restlessness, joy were again audible. "All men listen." Some did. I knew for sure some weren't, because otherwise it would be a different world. I knew without looking that JeremiahOak was paying close attention. NebulaLois began another recitation, the one for marriage. "I call for JaredTrout." The young man stood--he was nineteen or twenty. He was shaking, full of emotion. That was a common reaction. He stood on the ground before Nebula's platform. "JaredTrout, you are a man who has been seen healing hurt animals. You are a man who has been seen laughing with his sisters. You have been seen running as fast as you could to catch up with your grandfather to help him with his load." JaredTrout's eyes were closed. He was remembering these things. Nebula was listing real actions that the young man had done over the years. "You have been seen securing an infant into a carry board. You are a man who has been seen chopping vegetables. You have been seen stopping a game of tickle when the little brother first asked you to. You are a man who has been seen to listen to your mother correct you without even a slight resentment in your face." She took a breath. Now she was coming to the part that was the same for every husband. "There is within you a willingness to suffer for the purpose of giving birth. There is within you the touching of hands, the attention of eyes, for the giving of peace to your family and to the needy. There is within you gratitude. There is within you hope and honesty. There is within you thoughts and desire for stewardship of land and work. There is no boasting within you. There is no exclusion within you. There is no oppression within you. "The words that come from you kindle belief and rejoicing in all who hear. "At any and all times, you have provided for Women as they have had need of you. "You have provided children with their true identity by the influence of your very presence. "You have not resisted the Knowledge of Women. It is within you and you have nourished it and allowed it to create you as it is meant to do to all humans. "Therefore, the gift given to you this night is a gift of Women. The gift is also a gift of children upon which you will be privileged to imprint your identity as their own. "JaredTrout, you are a man worthy to be a husband. These women choose you." Young women (from the darkness) began coming to where JaredTrout stood and surrounded him in a circle. I counted twenty-two, all between the approximate ages of fifteen and twenty five. A lot, but I had seen marriages with more. My father had sixteen. The least amount I had seen in my lifetime was nine. Jared's sisters could not, of course, marry him. They would have to wait for another. All of the young women who wished to marry now were standing around JaredTrout now. There were many, of course, both younger and older who had not stood. My mother had told me before that in recent years, the number of women ready to marry was getting greater compared to the number of men worthy. I had heard my mother and my father's other women talking about upcoming marriages and the women and young women--the priestesses--all knew who was preparing and deciding and which young men might be worthy and who were definitely not. But these kind of discussions never, ever took place in the presence of a male, even a toddler. Once they could walk, they wouldn't hear such things. The men who were chosen were all basically surprised, although I suppose many of them prepared on purpose, which they would just about have to do to be like everything that the marriage lyric spoke of. JaredTrout was shaking. He could hardly look at the gifts, he was in awe and humility. He put his head in his hands and wept just a little. The Women were smiling and very excited, too. I guessed he had imagined this, but it was more than he could have imagined. But I saw that he did look at them, too, one at a time. He didn't want any one of the girls to think that he might have forgotten them. He was like my father.