cwald

Yeah, I guess that excuses it. Everybody was racists at thetime, so why not the restored "one true" church and the Prophet of God as well?

I agree. I don't see how one can say otherwise. Sure ---- it's all fine and dandy if you are a white guy or gal. But what about the black folks during the first 150 years of the restoration?

I was commenting on this sentence you wrote. When I was new here, I was lambasted for supposedly telling people "what they believed" and that I insinuated they said or believed something they didn't say in a post. So, I agree with you. Folks should not assume what you do or don't believe based on what you may have read, and attack your character, and just let your posts speak for themselves. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Yeah, I agree, about being creepy. I was referring to the comments I got here, one from you even, when I first started posted, about complaints that I was accusing people of saying stuff that they didn't actually say. I think the exact complaint from someone was, "don't put words in my mouth or tell me what I believe..."

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Yes. I agree. Sure, I suppose I could go to the Chinese Gardens and the tea house, AND NOT try a bunch of different teas. But why would I? It's not a sin to me. I didn't bring up the WoW subject in this thread - that is where it evolved before I posted. My main pointas related to this thread about "fun" was having to spend time, sometimes 3 to 6 hours at church on Sunday, rather than spending time with my wife and kids hiking and playing ball. To me, that would be fun. Much more fun than spending my entire Sunday in meetings.

As do you. I sometimes go to church - just for the potlucks and the potatoes. Good stuff. It's the only time I get to eat them.

You have my acknowledgment. :)

Nope, only that the experience of trying different teas in an authentic tea house added to the experience and enjoyment of the day. I think a big part of the experience would have been missing had we not done so.

You obviously don't understand or have much of a knowledge or experience with the art of beer or coffee. That is fine. Mormons should not. But I hope you will at least acknowledge that most of the population on this planet disagree with your description. Coffee, tea and beer really is an art and science. There is big difference between the different beer types and coffee types. Most mormons think of beer and coffee as Budweiser and Folgers. Yeah, that's stuff is pretty bad. But there is a whole lot more to it than that. I have to be honest, when LDS members say stuff like this, most of the world just shake their heads and sigh about the blatant ignorance displayed on the subject.

How about going to the Chinese Gardens in Portland with your wife and kids and drinking pot of tea at the tea house during a rain storm? Now that was fun.

Hmmm? Not really. You obviously missed my point. Who says that tea and coffee and beer are "sins?" The Mormons? Why would you think drinking tea is a "sin?" Perhaps the WoW is just a commandment of obedience, to determine loyalty to the church, and has nothing at all to do with "sin" at all? I don't think God cares about such trivial things.

Since it looks like this thread turned into a WoW thread, I will say that when I was a faithful member, I missed out on a lot of fun with friends and coworkers. Now that I am not "traditional" or "orthodox," my social life and the amount of "fun" I have is a lot more. I know that some folks say mormons have a lot of fun without beer or coffee or whatever. Sure, I believe it. Especially if they have never indulged in those pleasures of life - they for the most part don't know what they are missing. I'm not criticizing either - just making an observation. However, in my experience, I didn't have a lot of fun. I was quite miserable to be honest, and lonely. I'm much more at peace now.

Yes, I do. One example, I don't enjoy church at all. I would much rather be out with my kids hiking or playing ball and "having fun." Instead I'm often times stuck in church meetings 3, 4, 5 even 6 hours on Sundays. That's not fun.

Yep. Of course this kind of stuff never happened until Generation X came along. NEVER HAPPENED. The world sure is going to hell in a hand basket. (I wonder how many centuries people have been thinking this exact same thought.)

Yep. And this eugenics movement was not restricted to Germany. The United States was interested and used forced sterilization for mental handicap, mentally insane and violent criminals, until the early 40's I believe.

Good question. I don't have an answer.

My 16 year old daughter is on BC. Something to do with acne - I don't know, wife takes care of all that stuff. I teach high school students that abstinence is the best policy. But I'm not so naive to think that all teens will listen to me (or their biological instincts) and just not have sex, so I also teach about birth control. I think that if a teen is determined and going to have sex, there isn't a thing parents can do about. So they should at least be responsible about it and avoid the consequences inflicted on the individual, the unborn child and society in general of a teen pregnancy.

Yeah, maybe. I'll think about that.

I think the rule is ridiculous. And as RM Guy has clearly shown, I think the idea of adults policing and trying to enforce it is even more ridiculous. And personally, I think the "commandment," if that is what we want to call it because Pres. Gordon Hinkley said it, is pretty ridiculous as well. I put it right up there with the prohibition of tea. Is this just a commandment to test one's willingness to obey? A ban on having multiple ear piercings or, god forbid, a nipple piercing, is pretty innocuous and really is no one business but the individuals, IMO. I have no problem if the authorities of the LDS church want to enforce it for their activities --- but I just don't understand how that translates to Christ-like values. I just don't think Jesus would care about something this. That is just my opinion.

Oops. You are correct about the .5%, but my point is still valid. You would have to drink a lot of near beer to get the equivalent amount of alcohol that equals a couple pints of Oregon beer that it takes to get a buzz. I don't think many folks could do it without getting very sick. I think it is interesting that the Pharisees keep getting brought up. One side says folks like me are Pharisees for trying to justify sin. I don't think the Pharisees were about trying to justify sin. I think they were about defining every possible decision in life so AS NOT TO SIN. They came up with just an enormous amount of "should's and should-not's." That is what this thread reminds me of. So, from my perspective, those who want to nit-pick and try to define and make more out of the word of wisdom than needs be are really the ones acting like pharisees. Just my opinion.

That is a good post Dravin. It just occurred to me, that it would take an average of 12 Near Beers to equal the alcohol content of one oregon beer. Okay - yeah, that would probably make any person on this planet deathly bloated and sick as a dog before they consumed enough alcohol to actually even get a buzz.

Beer is not mentioned by name. Alcohol is in there under either the baptism questions or the temple recommend questions, under WoW. It clarifies that the word wisdom means abstaining from alcohol, tea, coffee and tobacco. And so, if an insignificant amount of alcohol in near beer is a violation, than so would nyquil, mouthwash, cough medicine and apparently "extract."

For the record, Near Beer is .05% alcohol. A good Oregon beer is 5.0 to 7.0% alcohol. In Utah, the beer is 3.2% I believe. Near beer really is not "beer" at all as far as an "alcohol drink" is concerned. And for the record, it's much healthier than drinking soda.

As has been pointed out in this thread, if Near Beer is against the word of wisdom, than so is nyquil, cough syrup, mouthwash, and apparently a gazillion other things like extact (whatever that is). I really don't think this is what Joseph Smith had in mind when he recorded the Section 89. If you don't feel comfortable, than fine, don't drink Near Beer. But to include it as a commandment and a doctrinally prohibited substance in the LDS church is really, IMO, as somebody else alluded to, "looking beyond the mark."