Klein_Helmer

That seems a strange thing to say, given the context of our conversation, in which you espoused any number of fringe conspiracy theories, for which you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence. I do not appreciate being insulted, though I will not respond in kind. I will however offer you this pearl: Petty derision is more effective when accurate. If you seek to discredit me by questioning my level of education, well...

Are you a fight fan, Vort?

It is not my intention to render you angry or ugly, I am merely curious to see where you found the information that has brought you to your previously stated conclusions. If I were to make such outlandish claims, I would not recoil were someone to request sources. If such sources do not exist, or are unreliable, you may do better not to make such baseless statements.

And if that doesn't work, hit them with a massive uchi mata?

I laughed out loud.

She sounds like a great resource to have around. With regard to 9/11 conspiracy theories, let me throw this out there: What if... what if, the terrorists were actually slovenly, artistic dentists??? ...

Haha, glad you could make it, Vort. I look forward to your musings.

I see, Do you have any thoughts on dentists or September 11th as they pertain to this thread?

An interesting combination to be sure. Hala401 and I were recently having a discussion on such matters, and some rather intriguing ideas came to light. A senior member of the site, and a forum moderator rightly judged our conversation to be irrelevant to the thread in which it was born, but I found it so fascinating that it is my wish to continue it here. For those of you who may have missed the original transcript, here are the highlights: Why do you believe dentists specifically are worth of the designation, "artists"? Why do you imagine the recipients of dental work to be, "often just slobs"? Fair enough on the first count, although you would do well not paint with such broad strokes on the second. Your evaluation of yourself as slovenly has no bearing on the recipients of dental work as a group. Please speak more on these statements. Is your contention that the individuals responsible for the attacks on the United States on September 11 were not Muslims? If so, bring to light this, "good solid research," that would validate, and make, "self evident" such a claim. Also, What mischief do you imagine the US government was up to, and who were/are these, "evil, power hungry, American men," and what danger did/do they pose to the citizenry? Are you suggesting I get my news from Fox and drunks at the bar? It seems like you are projecting. It is said that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I am looking for information, not insults. If you are indeed privy to, "good solid research done in libraries and universities," that would implicate the United States government in treasonous mischief, or establish the ill will of, "evil power hunger, American men" toward the citizenry, I am desirous of seeing it.

As you wish. Hala401, I feel we have crossed into some interesting territory. Would you do me the courtesy of continuing our conversation in another thread? I would be happy to create it.

Heathen I am, this one has gone clear over my head. Drat.

Best wishes, brother. My thoughts are with you.

This is a good thread, Vort. I am looking forward to offering my thoughts when I have a little time. Here is a preview of my position: There are bad people, lots and lots of bad people.

Fair enough, I am in a similar situation at the moment with regard to my availability for an involved discussion. To get the ball rolling, my position, in a nutshell, is this: Modern western marriage is an institution comprised of mutual love, and legal/social obligations. Assuming we are viewing the issue through a lens which does not involve the disapproval of a god or gods, I believe that two individuals of the same sex are no less capable, and no less likely to love one another, and fulfill their marital obligations than are couples consisting of a male and a female. Beyond that, I do not believe that human beings are inherently distinct from other mammalian species with regard to their biological sexuality. Seeing as homosexuality occurs in other species of mammals, whether it be consensual, or an act of domination, it only follows that these behaviors would also be present in human beings. I see these behaviors as natural, and believe that if anyone wishes to make the claim that such behaviors are inherently problematic or wrong, the burden of proof lies with them.

You strike me as a reasonable, measured, well spoken individual, and I would very much like to hear your thoughts on the matter from a (as you name it) "naturalistic" point of view.

A worthy challenger emerges. Vort, I beseech you, break from tradition and put up your dukes.

If the answer to which you are referring is, "Because God (specifically the god described by the church of latter day saints) said so, you are correct. Beyond that, not so much. Certainly it is the right of anyone to believe in the supernatural, and any behavioral mandates thereof; but it is unreasonable for any such a one to expect those outside of their specific belief system to grant any credibility to (or entertain in a debate) truisms based on faith alone. When two people disagree with respect to any given issue, differing spiritual belief systems derived from faith must be left out of the discourse, or there is simply not enough common ground to prevent an impasse. My point is this: if the lad desires to debate what he deems to be the inherently problematic nature of homosexuality, he has two options: He can either say homosexuality is wrong, because he has derived this notion from faith in the social standards which he believes to have been outlined by a specific supernatural entity, and the conversation is over; or he can attempt to conduct the conversation on any other grounds, and get crushed again.

You have taken a difficult position, and if you run into anyone with so much as a modest education, and anything resembling linguistic competence, you are going to get your doors blown. As others have mentioned, if being on what I can only imagine was the losing side of a number of online debates has reduced your faith to, "rubble", and left you, "falling back into sin", you should probably seek out other outlets for the expression of your beliefs. ... If however you should like to continue down the aforementioned path, I'll be your Huckleberry.

83, draw your own conclusions.

Nope!

Happy Easter.

"*facedesk*", ha! I like it, is that an original?

So yeah, if by some chance you all happen to be right about this whatnot, be sure to throw your dear Helmer a bone.

I mean to have this place jumping before too long. Forsooth.

You've chosen Biba, haven't you? I'll hold your hand through the process if you select her.