horax

If you read Jesus The Christ, written by James E. Talmage of the quorum of the 12, it does state that Judas had already started following Satan prior to being called as an apostle. He had already chosen which path he was going to follow. Jesus called him to the Apostleship becuase he knew that he had the ability to turn traitor. Now, it also states that Judas was one of the mosmt vehement believers in the Deity of Christ, and that he was turning him over to the Sanhedrin in hopes that Christ would utilize His divine power and show the World his Divinity. In doing this, poeple would believe en masse and as such, Christ would be delivered from the hands of evil. In short, Judas was trying to force Jesus' hand in proving who he was. The error here is twofold: 1) faith would not be required to believe. If Christ were to show the World His powers in a public setting (like calling down 12 legions of angels) nobody would have to believe by Faith. 2) this plan of Judas' was similar to Satans plan in which all would be forced to believe and all would return to God's presence unchecked In short, Judas was doing Satan's bidding. He had previously seen miracles and lived with Christ on a daily basis. He had the Holy Ghost, and his agency and naturally wicked heart was what placed him in the position to **** himself from Eternal progression.

I tend to think that the answer may lie in the fact that once you decide to follow Satan's plan you are in his power. His conscious decision to turn traitor marked him as such and from then on he was a servant of Satan instead of God. When Christ was washing the Apostles' feet, he said they were now clean, "but not all" in reference to Judas. Christ made lots of references to him the night of the Last Supper. Perhaps this is the clue showing that what he did needed to be done, but not necessarily by him. His actions were what caused him to fall.

That very well could be. It enters the whole Roe vs. Wade discussion that will never be decided on this Earth.

Well, he knew there were conspirators out to find and persecute Christ. He might not have known their true intent about killing him, but he knew they were going to arrest, etc. I wonder if he thought Christ would not let it happen since he could, as stated in Matthew, command 12 legions of angels to deliver him from them. Maybe he didn't quite undertstand all the consequences and how they tied togther.

No offense, but the third trimester is not brought into play. What is important is to knwo when a body is created. Does it matter if the body is perfect or a certain age? No it doesnt'. The Lord's plan is for every spirit to receive a body. At conception, the body has been created, no matter how small. Those children who die prior to PHYSICAL birth have rights to those bodies and have been spared of the evils of this world due to their righteousness in the pre-existence. Also, 2 min is still younger than the age of years.

We all know teh story of Judas and how he sold Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. I have always wondered exactly what his fate woudl be. We see that in Matthew, Judas felt badly when he saw how Jesus was being treated and returned the money. However, when Jesus was not released and the money was not accepted, he killed himself. Would he be more guilty of killing himself and not enduring to the end (and not being able to repent of his action of killing himself in this life) or of fulfilling a prophecy set forth by Jeremiah that one of Jesus' apostles would betray him? Also, one of my seminary students asked me this morning if Judas would be cast into outer darkness as a son of perdition since he walked with Christ and yet denied him. I said I'd do reserach, but I don't think he ever actually DENIED Christ or his teachings. He was presented an opportunity by Satan and he took it (which was wrong). I'm pretty sure all the apostles were tempted at differetn times, but Judas let the thought linger in his mind and eventually it took root in his heart and it ruined him. I have been looking through Jesus the Christ by Talmage as a reference, and I am going to go thorugh it again tonight, but if memory servefs he mentions how Judas is in perhaps the worst state ever due to his betrayal of the Lord. He mentions how you cannot walk a gray line in serving Christ. Either you follow him or you do not...you support God or you support Satan. According to his ideas, Judas might be in big trouble as he walked and talked with Deity and yet chose to serve the Evil One. At that moment, it's highly possible that he damned himself from further progression and would ultimately be cast into outer darkness. Remember, outer darkness is the only place where Eternal Progression is halted. You can progress in the Telestial, Celestial, and Terrestrial kingdoms, but you cannot progress OUT of them. What are your thoughts on this?

I think it depends greatly on the situation and rule in question. I mean, if his companion is saying "dude, let's go to a movei, it's not a bad one." I would view this as a reason to follow the letter of the law and say, "no way, jose." If it's something else, the answer could be different. I have learned that when we follow the church handbook of insturctions in leadership in all areas, the wards thrive more than if they do not. However, we each have a bit of responsibility where we are responsible for ourselves and families, etc. In that regard, the main thing is that the letter and spirit of hte law shoud both be followed if possible. Otherwise, the spirit of hte law is the thing to go by. On my mission I was a spirit of hte law kind of guy, and there's times when that applies. However, in some situations, you must defer to the letter of the law.

Total parallel. It's a good thing we have it.

I can agree with that. I mean, we're not just here to overcome Sin but to control our appetites and learn how to master our bodies, etc. The natural man woudl desire to eat 14,000 calories of food at every meal...but that's not quite what God intended, was it? I would say the Natural Man are the natural impulses of the flesh that we need to control with our spirit. Satan definitely can throw temptations that are harder to control due to their 'natural nature.' I agree with you on this.

So woudl it be a sin just to see the beautiful girl? The sin arises with the thought that follows. I do agree that the Devil would enhance things, etc., but to get to the root of the issue I keep seeing that quote that Satan is the father of all evil and sin. I guess we just need to wear blinders so we can't see the women...or move to Nebraska or something.

Right...I believe we're both right to a degree. I do'nt know if I'd say the key to his binding was the righteousness of the people, though. I mean, sure there have been instances when the righteousness of the poeple was such that he had no power over them for awhile. the difference stated above is that Christ will physically and personally reign. I tend to think that is the main reason he will have no power at all to do anything. No unclean thing can dwell in ht epresence of God. Whlie Jesus is here on Earth, Satan will not be able to be here, too. I think the good thing is that it will eventually happen. Let's hope we can all be righteous enough to experience this form the good side, if you will. :)

So what is the accepted definition of 'natural man?' Woudl it be one who is not enlightened by the Holy Ghost, or is it one who does not actively search the things of God? I think once we have that hammered out we'll be able to come to an accord here. I mean, we know the natural man is an enemy to God, and we know that Satan is an enemy to God. Is it possible that the natural man is merely a reference for Satan's influence on man in general?

I was being funny...or attempting to be.

that's what he wants you to think.

Satan has never been bound since his 'banishment' to Earth for lack of a better term. Furhtermore, in Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie breaks down teh millennium into different events: 1) council at Adam-Ondi-Ahman precedes millennium 2) second coming ushers in millennium 3) first resurrection ushers in millennium 4) righteousness will not hasten millennium 5) destruction of wicked as millennium commences 6) day of judgment commences millennial era 7) renewal of Earth to paradisiacal state 8) millennial binding of satan 9) millennial attainment of peace on Earth 10) Millennial changes in the animal kingdom 11) mortality continues during millennium 12) death, sorry, disease cease during millennium 13) all things revealed in our time 14) nonmembers of church during millennium 15) millennial conversal of all to the truth 16) millennial kingdom of god on Earth 17) temple work during the millennium 18) end of millennium and of the Earth I'd like to focus on #8, the millennial binding of Satan. Bruce R. McConkie states: When we speak of the binding of Satan in connectdion with teh millennium, we mean that he will be bound during that era, that his powers will be limited AFTER taht day commences, and NOT that men will turn to righteousness so as to tie the hands of Satan, thereby bringing millennial conditions to pass. The plan does not call fo rmen to turn voluntarily to righteousness thereby causing the thousand year era of peace to commence. Rather, the millennium will be brought about by power; th ewicked will be destroyed; and those only will remain on earth who are sufficiently righteous to abide the day of the Lord's coming (mal. 3; 4), a day when the elements shall melt with fervent heat and all things become new. However, Satan shall be bound (d and c 43:31; 45:55; 84:100; 88:110-111) and for a thousand years he "shall not have power to tempt any man." (d and c 101:28). ... It was this concept that that caused Nephi to write, speaking of hte period AFTER THE COMMENCEMENT of the millennium, that: "Becuase of the righteousness of his people, Satan has no power; wherefore, he cannot be loosed for the space of many years; for he hath no power over the hearts of the poeple, for they dwell in righteousness, and the Holy One of Israel reigneth." (1 Ne. 22:26)" ============ I think the key here is that he will have NO power to tempt, and in the past he did. But Nephi makes an interesting point in that two conditions need to occur: 1) people need to be righteous 2) Holy One of Israel needs to reign personally So condition #2 was not met after Christ was visiting the Americas, so he could tempt, but they didn't listen. That's the difference here. In the millennium, both conditions will be satisfied and he will literally lose his power for 1000 years.

I see what you are saying (literally, as it is right in front of me on the computer screen). Of course we are free to choose our own path. However, I find it hard to think that a human who was raised in righteousness would consciously choose to not follow the commandments and sin just becuase they wanted to. Look at Cain and Alma the Younger. They were both raised in righteousness, but it wasn't until Satan tempted them where they fell away and made their mistakes. Sure Alma repented, but he did make his choice to follow Satan after he was tempted to do so. Another good example is King David. He fell pretty badly, and he was a prophet who was raised in righteousness. This is an exmaple of how a human can err and choose to listen to the Evil One and allow the tempting to occur. Out of the three examples above, they were all raised within the church (I'll say for ease of use), and all three fell. However, it wasn't until after they were tempted that they chose to follow the path to destruction. Opposite examples could be Joseph of Egypt. When Potipher's wife tried to seduce him, he did not allow the temptation and removed himself from the situation. None of the above fell wihtout first being tempted. I'm not a sign seeker, but I'd be interested to see if anybody can point out an example of a person who fell or sinned grievously without first being tempted by Satan.

My stake president is Bruce R. McConkie's son. He's worked all free agency out of me. Just kidding! But he IS a great stake president! The only difference between teh Millennium and the time after Christ visited the AMericas is that Satan was free to tempt during that time. IN the millennium, he will be bound where he will have no power over the inhabitants of hte Earth. This is when the Holy Ghost (see the HG thread) will come to earth and receive his body so he can keep his second estate, as well. We will not need his influence as Satan will have no power and we will be able to follow through with our righteous desires with no tempting from the Evil One. There is no need to testify of truth when we will hear it directly from Christ's lips and not be tempted to stray. :)

You both have valid points, however, I must re-defer to Bruce R. McConkie: Bruce R. McConkie, page 735-736 of Mormon Doctrine : Heading: SIN : Sin is of the devil. "Whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil." Alma 5:40. He is the master of sin (mosiah 4:14), the author of all sin (helaman 6:30); he is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually and inviteth and and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually." (moroni 7:12). During hte Millenium, when Satan is bound, "children shall gorw up without sin unto salvation." (D and C 45:58) By committing sin men place themselves in subjection to Satan (D and C 29:40); they become his servants and receive "wages of him." (alma 5:38-43) If we can sin by ourselves wihtout Satan's influence, that would lead one to say we could sin in the Millennium while Satan is bound. However, McConkie states above that during the millennium this is not the case. Children will grow up without sin at all. I'm not trying to say I'm not responsible for my own actions, but what I am saying is that if Satan is the 'author of all evil/sin', then yes, he is the originator of such. If this were not hte case, then children would not be able to be raised up without sin during the millennium.

Regarding the question of who tempted Satan: When we were in the pre-existence, we had kept our estates up to that point. We had choice. If you remember, during the council of heaven, we had our choice to choose which side we wanted to support: Heavenly Father's or Satans. As you and I are both here on the Earth, we chose to follow Christ. Just because we are on this Earth experiencing a NEW kind of temptation (physically related) due to our bodies, this does not mean that we did not have opportunities to choose prior to coming here. Who influenced Satan? I would imagine that just as God (not Jesus Christ) is in deference to His Father, His Father had an opposer at one point. Remember that God was once as we are now, but he has chosen righteousness and now rules over all of His Creations. That knowledge leads us to know that He was tempted when He was a man. Was Satan there? No. Satan was not there as he is a Spirit Child of Heavenly Father. However, in order for God to go from man to exalted being ruling over kingdoms and principalities, he would have to overcome temptation as well. I would think that it is the being that tempted God during his time in mortality that tempted Satan prior to the council in heaven. I also think that Satans biggest problem wasn't necessarily his idea of not allowing us to choose. Sure it was contradictory to what God wanted, but his main issue was that he was prideful and wanted to keep the glory for himself. I do have three children and see what you are trying to illustrate. However, Orson F. Whitney's quote above shows the difference between sin and making errors (which is what I believe children do as they are NOT PROPERLY TAUGHT YET): Orson F. Whitney stated: Sin is the transgression of divine law, as made known through the conscience or by revelation. A man sins when he violates his conscience, going contrary to light and knowledge-not the light and knowledge that has come to his neighbor, but that which has come to himself. He sins when he does the opposite of what he knows to be right. Up to that point he only blunders. One may suffer painful consequences for only blundering, bu the cannot commit sin unless he knows better than to do the thing in which the sin consists. One must have a conscience before he can violate it." When I was on my mission, my companion saw somebody drinking on the street with a joint in their hand. He said, "Oh my gosh, Elder...that person is SO bad." I was like, "dude, he hasn't been taught what we have been taught. He's only living life according to his knowledge." That is why it's essential for us to take the gospel to all the world, so we can all be judged accordingly and in righteousness.

God doens't care what kind of car you drive....as long as it's not a Dodge. Our entire life is our chioce, that is the whole plan. We are presented with good and evil and we make the decision (influenced by our beliefs, morals, upbringing, etc.) and have to live with the outcome. The trick here is that God knew that NOBODY would make all the right choices. That is why He provided the Plan of Salvation to provide a way for everybody to come back to His presence, IF (again a choice) they abided by the rules of hte Plan and utilized Christ's sacrifice for us. I have three kids, and knowing them the way I do, I know what their choices will be when faced with certain options. However, that does not mean that I tell them or make them do things. It's just becuase I know them so well. I believe that God knows me more than I know my own children, so it's no surprise to him when I slip up and do something I shouldn't do. BUT, I keep trying to get past my shortfalls and apply the Plan to my life and try to improve and become a better individual. god knows that I'm trying, as well...and I think that's the important thing. Keep working towards perfection.

I'm surprised that any state would allow an anullment after 5 months of marriage. good luck with that.

Sounds like a situation where you need to first decide if you are choosing the right battle at the right time. I agree that if she said she'd put it away that she should have done it. However, if it were me, I'd HOPE that I'd be able to choose a bigger issue to take a stand on. I've found that a lot of spouses (men and women) are apt to jump the gun about such things...I'm not talking about you here, but your wife, in that they think they need to be tough and prove themselves at every situation and do it by yelling and arguing. It's sad, but I've just come to think that it's an issue that they need to work on themselves. Work on yourself and your relationship with God and then she will have the space to work on her. the trick is getting her to see she has something to work on.

Orson F. Whitney stated: Sin is the transgression of divine law, as made known through the conscience or by revelation. A man sins when he violates his conscience, going contrary to light and knowledge-not the light and knowledge that has come to his neighbor, but that which has come to himself. He sins when he does the opposite of what he knows to be right. Up to that point he only blunders. One may suffer painful consequences for only blundering, bu the cannot commit sin unless he knows better than to do the thing in which the sin consists. One must have a conscience before he can violate it." 2 Nephi 9:25: "Where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation." Alma 29:5: "He that knoweth not good from evil is blameless." Speaking of Adam and Eve's choices in the garden: 2 Nephi 2:23, " ...they would have remained in a sate of innocence, having no joy, fo rthey knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin." Bruce R. McConkie, page 735-736 of Mormon Doctrine : Heading: SIN : Sin is of the devil. "Whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil." Alma 5:40. He is the master of sin (mosiah 4:14), the author of all sin (helaman 6:30); he is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually and inviteth and and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually." (moroni 7:12). During hte Millenium, when Satan is bound, "children shall gorw up without sin unto salvation." (D and C 45:58) By committing sin men place themselves in subjection to Satan (D and C 29:40); they become his servants and receive "wages of him." (alma 5:38-43) It is clear that Sin is only on the Earth due to the presence of Satan as he is the one who tempts us to do evil continually. If that were not so, then one would be making the argument that God has placed us in an unwinnable situation where he leads us to temptation, which he does not. That would be contrary to his plan for all of us, which is to be happy and return to His presence.

Not true. Adam and Eve were not capable of making choices without Satan's influence in the Garden of Eden. that is why God allowed him to enter into the Garden and tempt them. They needed to be tested (just as we need to be tested) in order to see which path we would then choose to make. It's a chicken and egg situation, how can you choose between A and B if only A is available?

Evil or temptation would not be be an issue without Satan's influence. Human Beings are born with the Light of Christ. They are incapable of Sin. This is why children are not baptized until 8 years old a nd the age of accountability. However, if Satan were not aroudn to tempt or influence us, there would be no outside influence to provide good vs evil choices and actions. Therefore, all choices would be made moot, and the plan would fail. The thing a lot of people do not realize is that Satan made a choice to become who he did. We, too, need to be tempted in order to command our bodies and thoughts in order to become as Christlike as possible, thereby qualifying ourselves to be cleansed by the atonement and prepare us for the Celestial Kingdom. Satan's plan was to take away our choice and make it so everybody would qualify for Celestial Glory. God knew this would not work and therefore allowed Satan to fall and appointed his Son to provide teh atoning sacrifice needed so that we (when tempted by Satan) would have a way to overcome his evil influences.