Chubbs

I had never thought about this topic just like this, but it makes sense. In connection with this is another question I've had. If we believe that God continues to create, how is the "third part" designated. Regardless of definition, the one used by the OP or an actual 33.3%, these are after the fact designations, i.e., you can't have a third part unless there's a whole. So, is the "third part" just in relation to our creation's existence or all of the Father's creations.?

Did you ask the EQP what the greater sin was, not to pray or to pray naked. I agree with everyone who has posted that it doesn't matter, as long as it is sincere.

Somewhat similar, while on vacation last month we stopped at a store and a gentleman came up with a pamphlet and handed it to my wife. I generally take them and give a "thanks," I remember what it was like to share what I think/know to be true. But after saying we had to leave he wouldn't take no for an answer. I then decided to take a look at the pamphlet with him and as friendly as possible, refuted much of what was printed in it. He quickly moved on to the next unsuspecting customer. As mentioned, I try to be friendly but sometimes you have to stand your ground.

In my opinion, respect is an automatic that I will give to everyone that I meet, it is something that is innate that we as humans deserve. The idea that "respect needs to be earned" is an excuse for people to be disrespectful and crass, because you haven't earned their respect. Anddenex, a question on your comment about love: I don't love you, frankly, however I do respect you. And I assume vice-versa, specifically about loving me. So, do you not respect me then? (I'm asking this as a point of clarification just because the stance seems "wrong," and I'm assuming it is a semantics thing) I believe that respect can be lost however.

Pam, I agree, but it has to start somewhere. :)

I got more replies thus far than I had assumed I might. Out of curiosity, how many would be interested in starting/joining a group that was dedicated to LDS Scottish Heritage, by this I mean 1) Help each other with Family History, specifically related to Scottish connections, 2) Possibly meet together for Temple nights with names prepared, 3) Education, 4) Etc. ??

I was using hyperbole to point out that one seemingly innocent idea or feeling can quickly turn into heresy and apostasy. I have never heard of a GA discussing these points, however it seems like Anddenex has heard of it and I can only defer to his knowledge. I have no problem being Thankful to our Lord and Savior to the tremendous sacrifice he made in our behalf. I hope that I will one day kneel at his feet and offer up my sincerest gratitude for his sacrifice and to the Father for the Salvation that He authored. However, I still don't pray to Christ. In another post you quoted a prayer from Elder McConkie and used the following phrase to seemingly point out his hypocrisy on this topic: "O, how we love the Lord Jesus, who is called Christ and who is the Holy Messiah; who also is our Lord, our God, and our King, whom we worship in the full majesty of his godhood..." I believe that Bytor2112 answered your concern, but I would like to throw in my two cents. In this prayer, McConkie used a qualifying statement to our worship, which I bolded above. We worship Christ in his godhood, as a member of the Godhead since he is not our God except when he acts as such through and in the Godhead, not as a man who gave himself up as a sacrifice that we all might be saved, but as a God, (whether his sacrifice made him a God or not is a debate for another thread). When we worship Him in this context we subsequently have to worship Him with the Father and the Holy Ghost. Which is keeping entirely with his message in the OP'd speech: "But the very moment anyone singles out one member of the Godhead as the almost sole recipient of his devotion, to the exclusion of the others, that is the moment when spiritual instability begins to replace sense and reason."

I personally believe that there have been a lot of answers given to the many questions that you have, and have been given a reason to "trust" Masonry. It is not a nefarious, world ruling power, but until you decide to see it for what it is, you will always distrust it. One of the reasons why I dont see a point in joining this organisation is that I think there is enough (and even more than enough) service, charity, knowledge in the church. So why not devote spare time to service in the true church, rather than to some questionable organisation. (or watching TV for that matter). I have a difficult time seeing the "true church" having a monopoly on service. And if I can use a little hyperbole; have you discussed with your fiance that you won't be having a TV in the house, except on General Conference weekends, that if you two play a musical instrument it will only by hymns, that there will be no reading of books or magazines that cannot be purchased at Deseret Book, or that if there is a car broken down on the side of the road, unless you're on special assignment from the church to do so, you're not going to help them. Like I said a little bit of hyperbole but it illustrates a perceived flaw in your argument. If I may be so bold, one of your "problems" with Masonry is, at least inferred from your post, is that you still see Masonry as a psuedo-religion. I infer this from the point of "...service in the true church." The blunt truth is that Masonry is not a religion, it never takes itself to be a replacement for religion, nor does it offer salvation to members of the fraternity. It does have certain religious overtones, prayer for examples, but so does the Boy Scouts of America, an organization that the Church is tied to (for better or worse in my opinion). As has been pointed out before; Joseph Smith Jr., Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Willard Richards and many more were members of the Masonic Lodge in Nauvoo. I have a difficult time that the most faithful of Saints (If I may be so bold to call them that), especially during the tumultuous times that were the Nauvoo era, would join a group that didn't offer some benefit to their lives, and an edification of their spirituality. In short, if Joseph felt alright with it than I can feel alright with it.

Tithing to masonry? You're father belonged to a different masonry than most, we don't pay tithing. We do pay annual dues, my lodge's dues are $75.00 for the year. A point of clarification, due to the fact that tithing has certain connotations, religious and a tenth of income come to my mind quite quickly.

I hate when when I meant to say something and forgot :) For some reason Masonry seems to be a lightning rod for debate in the church, and I usually use the Temple Recommend questions to support the idea that my membership in the fraternity is not "bad" or "wrong." The Temple Recommend questions can be found here: Temple Recommend Questions First, there is not a question about Masonry. Second, Question #7 could be used to reference Masonry, "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" If the only group I belong to is Masonry, the answer is an emphatic "NO." There is nothing in the "teachings or practices" in Masonry that is "contrary to or oppose" those of the Church. In fact, I find the teachings and practices of Masonry to encourage me to participate in my Church. Just another idea I had to post.

Sorry for the delay, I have ironically been at a Lodge Picnic this afternoon. The KFC recipe is comparable if you know the secrets! By this I mean, the only reason that it is a secret is because we promise to make it a secret, as has been pointed out earlier, the secrets are freely available online and I actually own various books, all bought at Barnes and Noble, that explicitly show or tell the "secrets." I have never drank flood from a skull, or any other bone for that matter (even if others will tell you I'm lying to hide my sins). Joseph Smith said, this is from "The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" Collectors Edition page 259 under the "Temporal Economy-Care of the Poor" section--"The secret of Masonry is to keep a secret." That's really it! Nothing nefarious is intended, and is very much like KFC's recipe, in the fact that they are secrets because they are secrets, not because we are trying to hide something. My wife loves Masonry and what it adds to my life and our life. My wife is from Florida and had no family in Utah. Members of Canyon Lodge, my lodge, quickly made her feel welcome and truly became a second family for her. She is close friends to many of the members' wives and we regularly do things with these families. Masonry has truly become a part of her life as well. There are organizations for wives and female members of a Mason's family, however my wife doesn't participate in any of these organizations. I also noticed in another post your concern about the "Worshipful Master" of a lodge. Every single lodge has a "Worshipful Master" who is the equivalent of the president of the organization for 1 year, or in some states, 2. One thing about the word Worshipful is how it is used and how it originated, Freemasonry originates in England in 1717, so we have to use what the British people may have meant when they decided on the term Worshipful. Dictionary.com says this, "chiefly ( Brit ) ( often capital ) a title used to address or refer to various people or bodies of distinguished rank, such as mayors and certain ancient companies of the City of London" The mayor of London is still referenced as Worshipful and there is still The Worshipful Company of Liveries in London. As Masons we use Worshipful with this definition in mind, to distinguish him among his peers for the one year that he serves, much like we in America use the term President. As mentioned earlier, I am currently serving my lodge as "Worshipful Master" and after some meetings I would just wish for a thank-you or your doing a good job! About arguing, welcome to marriage! Honestly, the question that you and your fiance need to ask is, "Is this something that might edify your future marriage or drag it down?" Masonry has edified my marriage and me spiritually, a lot more than sitting in front of the Television watching the weekly football game. What would you rather have your future husband doing? Hope this helps.

I am currently the Worshipful Master (President) of my lodge in Midvale Utah. I have been a Mason for almost 5 years and a member of the Church for my entire life. I had wanted to be a Mason for quite a long time before I joined the lodge, I had waited until I was married to join and my wife had some of the same concerns that you posted in your OP, and probably some that you hadn't voiced. She went so far as to write a letter to the First Presidency about my joining. They responded, through the Assistant to the First Presidency, and basically said: There is nothing wrong with a member of the Church joining a Masonic Lodge, or any other volunteer organization (elks, kiwanis, lions, etc). The "problem" is when the dedication to these organizations overwhelms and competes with responsibilities in the home and related to callings and volunteering in the Church. This has been my stand on Masonry since this time. Masonry encourages me to be a better man, serve my fellow man, be dedicated to my religious convictions, and many more things. I find that dedicating an hour here and there to Lodge is a lot more spiritually refining than spending an hour at the T.V. or the computer (even on lds.net:D). Regarding your concerns about Freemasonry being a Religion, the best source I can give is this Freemasonry and Religion, this is the website of the Masonic Service Association of North America. It more concisely answers why many view Masonry as a religion and Masonry's actual relationship to Religion. Secrecy! Masonry does have secrets, and I am not going to try to hide that there aren't. However, the secrets that it has is nothing that can come between a husband and wife, the secrets are traditional modes of recognition, that in all truth can be found with a simple Google search. There is another set of "secrets" that happen in Masonry that truly cannot be communicated, even between Masons. By this I mean, in Lodge we are presented with symbols and philosophies that each takes to heart and uses according to themselves. Due to my outlook on life (faith, history, etc) I view these symbols differently than anyone else who might study them, hence they are secret. Let me ask, if your fiance worked for KFC and was privy to the "secret" recipe of 11 herbs and spices, would you demand that he told you the "secret" recipe, even if it meant him losing his job, probably being sued for disclosure of Intellectual Property, etc. The argument, in some cases, that there are not secrets between a husband and wife is a lofty goal that in some cases cannot be upheld. I will say this, there are no "secrets" in lodge that I would be distraught if or would ruin my relationship and marriage if my wife "found out." I am more than happy to answer any and all question you and your fiance may have about Masonry in general, and specifically any concern that you as a member of the Church might have regarding Masonry. If you live around the Salt Lake Area or the surrounding communities, I am more than happy to meet you and your fiance and show you around the Masonic Temple in Midvale and answer any questions in person. Please hold nothing back. Also, as a word of advice for your fiance (and this "counsel" I have given to other would be Masons), if this is something that would cause contention in the home than it is not worth joining. Any "hobby" that has the potential to take a lot of time should be discussed between Husband and Wife and a mutual decision should be made. Hope this helps, and once again, I am more than happy to answer ANY question you might have.

Just for a point of clarification, I "feel" that Joseph Smith has done more, save Jesus Christ only, for the salvation of mankind than any other person that has lived. I opened the last dispensation, restored the fullness of the Gospel, etc. In all seriousness, one could say we are indebted to him for our salvation (using semantic). What if I took these "feelings" and began to "worship" him? I have no doubt that even you would say that this is improper and should be quelled! You are absolutely correct that an apostle cannot dictate how we feel about Jesus Christ, or any other person for that matter, but it is one of their roles to warn of how those feelings may or may not manifest themselves in actions and the consequences of those actions; i.e. praying to the Son instead of the Father, worship of the Virgin Mary, transubstantiation, etc. It only takes one "feeling" to manifest itself in improper actions to lead to apostasy and damnation. I personally feel that in our effort to grow closer to mainstream Christianity and be accepted by them we have sold a little bit of our "peculiarity." If saying we worship the Father as much as we do the Son makes me wrong, than I don't want to be right!

This one statement is, in my opinion, exactly what Elder McConkie was saying as a proper relationship. You mention both of the "physical" members of the Godhead and have, if I may infer, used the Spirit to come to the conclusions, you have not singled out one above the other. Just because we can relate to Christ better than we can the Father does not mean we worship him.

How many members of the community are of Scottish descent here? I've been thinking of putting together an organization for members of the church of Scottish Heritage.

"But the very moment anyone singles out one member of the Godhead as the almost sole recipient of his devotion, to the exclusion of the others, that is the moment when spiritual instability begins to replace sense and reason." This is the crux of the entire speech the Elder McConkie gave, that we should not "single out one member of the Godhead". I have a hard time believing that this is not clear! And if anyone believes that it is wrong that Elder McConkie went to BYU to suppress sectarian notions that had begun to creep into the church, especially around BYU, does not understand one of the roles of an apostle of the Lord.

Well, I've lurked around this site for a little while now, probably about a month, and figured I should jump into the pool instead of watching everyone else swim. My name is Jason, I served a mission in Orlando Florida, met my wife and married in the Orlando Temple, I am currently an Autism Specialist in Salt Lake City for Valley Mental Health, going to school for my Special Education Degree, and at the same time trying to raise my one year old son, Hudson. I'm looking forward to being part of the community.

This is one of my favorite speeches from a lion in the gospel. I always look back at this speech to help define my relationship with God and the role of each member of the Godhead in that relationship. Thanks for posting this, I think it is something that everyone should read through occasionally!