serapha

Certainly, you don't believe that salvation can be given with a false doctrine? I can have faith and believe that my dog will save me, but that is misplaced faith, and a false doctrine. I just quoted today from the official site where it stated that only those who are born again by the laying on of hands by one in the priesthood of the CoJCoLDS will see the kingdom of God. The Bible tells me that I can have the Spirit by asking for it. So, who is right? The CoJCoLDS's official site or The Holy Bible? ~serapha~

and, I'm still looking at the "filthy rags" statement. (which I have never used so I must not be an evangelical) ~serapha~

Is that a serious question or a clever little dig? How's this: we don't pretend that it has salvific properties. So.. Where did that site say that the certificate has salvific purpose? or, as you said, "properties"???? I must have missed that comment. ~serapha~

I know you don't like personal comments Serapha, but that's a cheap debater's trick. The point is not whether or not God lies. The point is that you "believe" he has given you a promise. You may call it knowledge but we both know it is a "belief" even if it is one that you hold very strongly. If you want to have the whole epistomology debate, we can do that too. By the way, I have argued vociferously from your position so I am well aquainted with it's weaknesses.So... only a member of the CoJCoLDS's can get a personal revelation from God???? ~serapha~

Please try and keep your positions straight. A moment ago you were saying that God does not does not decided who is saved and now you say that God pre-determines who will be saved. Which is it?The Bible states that it is God's desire that none should be lost, that we are all predestined to be children of God and not children of wrath. Do you need scriptures on that? The Bible also states that God is not a respector of persons. All three apply and do not contradict each other. God doesn't decide tht some should be lost. And, earlier you said that salvation was by faith, not you seem to be saying that doctrine plays a roll. Which is it? Salvation by faith, or salvation by faith and correct doctrine? If your faith is in the wrong doctrinal statements, then I have to say that misplaced faith doesn't save you.

Semantics Serapha, semantics. Believing, albeit sincerely, is having faith. You know... a lot of people believe... but they don't take that step of faith... and if they never take that step of faith, then believing doesn't save them... Look at pentacost... there were people there who participated in the experience, but never received the infilling of the Holy Spirit. <span style='color:red'>A lot of people believe, but say, "I want to wait before I commit to Christianity so I can have more fun in life!" They believe, they know the way, but they don't exercise that step of faith... it isn't sematics. Although for me, faith is not faith unless it is the kind of belief that leads to obedience to God. As you said, "That's one opinion" http://www.freegift.org/ Agreed but their are plenty who think that it is just that simple. Check it out: http://www.freegift.org/ To their way of thinking, you are just a few clicks away from heaven. You can even print out a certificate to prove it. How cute. I looked at the site. They will print a new birth certificate for new believers! Doesn't your denomination issue Baptismal certificates? What's the difference? Does God read or need that baptismal certificate? ~serapha~

Oops... reference. http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/salv.html

That's one opinion but certainly not believed by other Christians in the Calvin tradition. but what does it matter - in your view (correct me if I am wrong) doctrine doesn't matter, accepting Christ is what matters, right?Well, I believe God predestines everyone to be saved... And, yes, biblical doctrine does matter... particularly this doctrine... DOCTRINE OF SALVATION (Phase 1) December 7, 1985 Preliminary considerations (Jd.3): Mankind stands in need of salvation due to Adam's fall (Rom.5:12-21). Adam's original sin is imputed to his progeny, resulting in spiritual death to all (Rom.3:23; Gal.3:22). While man is born physically alive, he is born spiritually dead, enslaved to the indwelling sinful trend of Adam/old sin nature (STA/OSN; Eph.2:1-3; Rom.3:9; 5:17). This leads to personal sins which form a barrier between man and God's perfect righteousness (+R; Col.2:13,14). Man is completely incapable of redeeming himself (Ps.49:7-9; 146:3; 1Pet.1:18,19). Therefore, God initiated His plan to do for man what man could not do for himself (Act.2:23; Eph.2:8,9). God's attribute of Love explains why He provided a grace solution to man's fallen and sinful condition (Jn.3:16; Rom.5:8; Eph.2:4; 1Jn.3:1; 4:10). In order to redeem the fallen race, God sent into the world a Savior to be a substitute and sacrifice for sin (1Tim.1:15; 1Jn.4:9,10). This perfect man, being actual flesh and blood, had to be without sin and had to be willing to die (Gal.4:4; 1Jn.3:5). Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to die in our place so that we could be redeemed from the curse of the Law (the Law, which is God's +R contained in commandments, demands perfection and no one can keep it; hence it is a curse; Gal.3:13). Only Jesus Christ could keep the Law and be so qualified to bear the judgment for our sins in His own body on the Cross (Mt.5:17; 2Cor.5:21; 1Jn.3:5; 1Pet.2:24). This He accomplished some 1,960 years ago, providing a once-for-all-time sacrifice for sins (1Tim.2:6; Heb.9:28). The message of salvation is the gospel, which means "good news" (Rom.1:16; Eph.1;13). Christ died for our sins (1Cor.15:3). Those who believe in Him possess forgiveness and eternal life (Act.2:37-39; 15:7; cp. 10:38; Eph.1:7; 2Tim.1:10). He was raised from the dead, ensuring the believer's victory over the grave via resurrection (1Thess.4:14). Eternal salvation is by grace, i.e., a free gift of God (Rom.3:24; 6:23). Salvation is from God and not of human derivation (1Chr.16:35; Ps.3:8; 24:5; 62:2,5,6; 67:2; 146:3; Isa.12:2,3; 43:11; Ti.3:5; Heb.5:9; Rev.19:1). The Cross is the place where our so great salvation was made possible (Jn.12:32,33; 1Cor.1:18; Col.1:20; 1Pet.2:24). The role of the Godhead in salvation. God the Father sent His Son into the world to be the Savior, thus fulfilling the eternal decree to do so (Jn.5:23,24,30,36,38, plus 22X; Gal.4:4, et al.). God the Son became flesh, and the resultant hypostatic union existed in the incarnation under humiliation, culminating in the execution of the eternal decree to die for sins (Act.2:23; Phil.2:6-8). God the Holy Spirit convicts men of their need, regenerates those who believe, and seals (keeps saved) those who are born again (Jn.16:8-11; 3:5; Eph.1:13,14). He reveals the Son to men (Jn.16:14,15). Various doctrines of salvation briefly explained. Propitiation views the effect of Christ's work on the Cross on the righteousness of God: namely, that God has been propitiated (satisfied) with respect to man's sins (man's sins are no longer a barrier to eternal relationship to God; Rom.3:25a; 1Jn.2:1,2; 4:10). Redemption views mankind as slaves to the STA/OSN, analogous to a slave market, and Christ the free man purchasing their freedom through His blood (Jn.3:36; Rom.6:17,18,22; 8:2; Gal.4:5; 5:1; Col.1:14; Ti.2:14; Heb.9:12,15). Reconciliation sees man's sins as producing hostility between himself and God, and then God removing the hostility through Christ. Man is required to believe to effect the reconciliation (Rom.5:1,10,11; Col.1:21,22; 2Cor.5:18,19). Justification sees man in need of God's perfect Righteousness to be qualified to live in heaven as God's sons forever. Imputation is the corollary doctrine which describes the mechanics of justification (Rom.3:26,28; 4:3,5,9-11; 5:1a; Gal.2:16). Regeneration is the work of God the Holy Spirit toward the one who believes, constituting the individual a son of God through a new birth, and imputing eternal life to the believer (Jn.3; 1Jn.5:1,4). Adoption is God accepting us as His sons and joint-heirs with Christ who formerly were not His children (Gal.4:5; Eph.1:5; Rom.8:15). Unlimited atonement declares that Christ died for all men, including those who reject Him as Savior (1Jn.2:2). Calling views God as extending the invitation to be saved to all, even those who refuse to come (Mt.22:14; Rom.8:30; Gal.1:6; 1Tim.6:12). Election is the process whereby God accepts as His own those He already knew would accept the call to salvation (Mt.22:14; Eph.1:4). Foreknowledge is God's Omniscience, through which He knew from eternity past all those who would believe (Rom.8:29). Predestination means that God foreknew those who would believe, and these He predestined to be in the image of His Son. He did not cause them to believe and exclude others (Rom.8:29,30; Eph.1:5,11; 1Pet1:1,2). Man's part in his salvation is to simply believe that God the Father sent God the Son to be the Savior (Jn.6:29). The mechanics of salvation is to believe in God the Son (Gen.15:6; Isa.28:16; Jn.1:7,12; 3:15-18,36; 20:31; Act.16:31; Rom.3:22; 4:3; 10:9; 1Cor.1:21; Gal.3:26; 1Jn.3:23; 5:13, et al.). When repentance is used in a salvation context, it refers only to the change in one's thinking that occurs when a person rejects their previous ideas for the truth (Mk.1:15). Abraham is the pattern for all who believe for salvation (Rom.4:3,11,12). Those under the Law (like David) were saved by faith (Rom.4:6-8). Salvation is not by works (Jn.1:13). Salvation is not by any system of law or works, including the perfect system of righteousness given by God, the Mosaic Law (Rom.3:20; Gal.2:16; 3:11; Eph.2:8,9; Ti.3:5). Salvation is not through ritual, including the Lord's Table or water baptism (Rom.4:10-14; 1Cor.1:17; 1Pet.3:21; Heb.10:1-4). If there were a system of works that could produce God's perfect righteousness in man, salvation would be by works, nullifying the need for the Cross (Gal.3:21). If salvation were by works, man could boast; but salvation by grace negates boasting (Rom.3:27-30). Finally, man cannot add anything to faith in Christ. This would be another gospel (Gal.1:6,7). Salvation is eternal at the point of faith in Christ and cannot be forfeited under any circumstances whatsoever; we call this eternal security (God can deny rewards in heaven, but not eternal life). As seen in the use of the adjective "eternal", describing our salvation (Jn.3:36; 4:14; 5:24; 10:28; 1Tim.1:16; 1Jn3:15; 5:11, et al.). As seen in the "bread of life" and "water of life" metaphors (Jn.4:13,14; 6:32-35, 47-58). As seen in the Good Shepherd metaphor (Jn.10:28,29). As seen in the new birth analogy to physical birth (Jn.3:3-6; 1Pet.1:23). As seen in direct statements like Rom.8:35-39 and 1Pet.1:5. As seen in the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit (Eph.1:13; 4:30). Applications of the doctrine to believers. Confidence with respect to one's salvation is based on: Practicing righteousness and keeping the royal imperatives (1Jn.2:3,5,29). Loving the brethren (1Jn.3:10,14). Learning Bible Doctrine (1Jn.2:27; 3:24). The responsibility to bear witness is for all believers regardless of niche or gift (Isa.52:7; Ti.2:10). The challenge of one's salvation is to lay hold of those things that accompany our salvation adjustment to the justice of God (SAJG) through growth (Heb.6:9; 1Pet.2:2). The promise associated with our salvation is eternal life in a resurrection body (Jn.5:20-29; 11:24-27; Rom.8:23). Who can be saved? Christ, the Savior of all men, died for all men so that all can be saved (Jn.3:17; 4:42; Rom.10:13; 1Tim.4:10; Ti.2:11; 1Jn.2:2). <span style=\'color:red\'>It is God's desire that all be saved (1Tim.2:4). However, the vast majority of mankind will not be saved due to negative volition (Mt.7:13,14). None will perish who would otherwise believe if given an opportunity (Jn.17:2). Those who populate heaven constitute a great multitude (Heb.2:10; 12:23; 1Cor.10:33). The consequences of failing to believe in Christ. The unbeliever renders himself unworthy of salvation (Act.13:46). He is already under judgment (Jn.3:18,36; cp. Rom.8:1). He is guilty of the unpardonable sin (Mt.12:31; Mk.3:28,29; Lk.12:10). He will die in his sins (Jn.8:24). He will enter into eternal torment at physical death and experience the second death (Mt.18:8; 25:41,46; 2Thess.1:9; Jd.7). All unbelievers will be raised in the last resurrection, judged, and cast into the Lake of Fire (Jn.5:29; Rev.20:11-15). The word salvation means deliverance. Other uses of this word, other than Phase One deliverance, must be recognized in Scripture. Temporal deliverance (Ps.18:48; 37:39; 38:22; Dan.6:27; 1Cor.10:13; 1Tim.1:20; 2Tim.4:17). Deliverance from loss at the Bema Seat (Phil.2:12; 1Tim.4:16). The Rapture, which is the deliverance of the body (Rom.13:11; 1Thess.5:9). No one can have a relationship with God apart from Jesus Christ, His Son (Mt.10:40; Jn.5:23; 8:19; 13:20; 15:21; 16:3; 17:3). Isa.55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost." Rev.21:6,7 "And He said to me, 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.'"

snow, You can "know"... I don't have a monopoly on knowing God's plan of salvation, I can't help if it God gave me a promise and I can't help it if God cannot lie. You can know that you know. ~serapha~

Starsky, God is not a respector of persons.... God doesn't "decide" whose heart will be changed... God accepts everyone who approaches the throne of grace with a sincere and repentant heart. ~serapha~

Well, You said, correct me if you are wrong... It is faith in the belief that Jesus Christ died and rose again, victor over sin, death, and the grave. And that by the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ, one's sins are forgiven. Faith effects the atonement. Not believing. As the Word says, we are saved by faith, and not works. Saying the words of the "sinner's prayer" doesn't save you... it's the submissive heart that becomes an obedient heart that saves you. God looks at the heart. ~serapha~

Yes... I got it... born-againer Let me go back and fill that in the spaces... ~serapha~

I agree with that but most fundamentals I have met do not. How often do you see stuff like bumper stickers saying "Honk if you're saved" or hear then say "I've been saved by the blood of Christ" and "I'm saved, thank you Jesus, ad nauseum... as if the great and glorious day of judgement done come and gone?All the time. Oh, I understand now... You're upset because fundamentalist KNOW they are saved and going to heaven... even without works. It doesn't seem fair, does it? ...that a member of the CoJCoLDS's has to be involved in a "works" program while a fundamentalist just slides by the pearly gates with just "faith" in their heart and mind. Snow, I know I'm saved. God gave me that assurance. Any "works" I do here, that just gets me a bigger crown in glory. But what will I do with that crown? Why, just place it at the feet of Jesus. My "works" aren't for my gain, but for something bigger and better to place at the feet of the One who died for me. I "work" in love... and never for what I might gain out of it for myself. Just being in the presence of God for eternity is enough... singing and praising God forever. ~serapha~

Bible-thumper. And when one asks God for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. .... "ask and ye shall receive.." ~serapha~

Someone please tell me... Was is a ba? ~serapha~

Snow, Three points... 1) I only abandon those statements where the poster is obnoxious in their reply to me. ' 2) From that point on, I ignore the offending party.... it's still your choice. If you want discussion.. you have to stay out of the gutter. And I have learned the rules here. Any future postings which are not within the guidelines as posted will be reported. "respect" was one of the guideline words. 3) What's the contradiction? Any saved, born again fundamentalist has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because God gives it to them, and it is evidenced by the change in their life. Since the LDS's teach that only people who receive the Holy Ghost through a "hands on" experience and since the Word of God teaches that unless one is born again... they don't go to heaven. That's the contradiction. ~serapha~

Hi there! Believe it or not, a fundamentalist is only "saved" when God has judged the individual to be sincere... and therefore, there is a heart change. The Bible refers to being born again in a spiritual sense. The inner man, the spiritual man, is "quickened" so the spirit of man can communicate with God, who is spirit. and yes, there is "power" in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Power to overcome evil. ~serapha~

Jenda I asked for proof... and you diverted the subject and threatened me with "moderator status". That's a threat to keep me from contronting you again and expecting you to post the proof of your statement. Is that how you avoid answering questions when they are put to you point blank? I didn 't acuse YOU of lying.. but you tell me that I continue in a lie? I am reporting your conduct. So put me on moderator status if you want.. I came to this forum already crucified... and you have looked for an excuse .. Well, you got it. I'm not backing down. I want the proof of your accustion or I want a public apology. ~serapha~

Fundamental definitions... "Saved/Redeemed" when one acknowledges their sins and seeks forgiveness through the Lord Jesus Christ. Atonement is achieved once one is saved. If one is saved, one's sins have been atoned by the blood of Jesus Christ. One is saved by their faith in Christ. "Born Again" when one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost. ~serapha~

Ammon, Simply put, it is poor stewardship of your time and money. :) ~serapha~

You must be talking to Starsky .... ~serapha~

"The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ." http://scriptures.lds.org/gsh/hlyghst so... no one outside the CoJCoLDS's can have the indwelling or the infilling of the Holy Ghost? No one is "born again" with the indwelling of the Holy Ghost except the members of the CoJCoLDS's, and then only after a member of the priesthood gives it to you ???? John 3: 3 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So no one is entering the "kingdom of God" except for members of the CoJCoLDS's who received the spirit because Melchizedek Priesthood holder laid hands on them? Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Jas 4:2b yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Could someone please reconcile these two Bible passages to the first paragraph. ~serapha~

I'm sorry, you are mistaken. I lecture on the Bible and archaeology, and you are about to get a lecture right now... read on... Gathering Stones in Sychar For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water (Jeremiah 2:13) Water is a precious commodity in Israel because of the arid conditions. From mid-April until mid-October, there is relatively little or no rainfall in the region to sustain life; therefore, in ancient Palestine, cisterns were hewn out of the limestone rock base. They were plastered on the inside walls to prevent the loss of water through cracks in the limestone foundation, and during the "early" and "latter" rains of winter, water would be diverted to the cisterns for storage until it was needed in the dry summer months. Until the water was needed and used, it remained in the cisterns, uncirculated and growing stagnant by the stillness of the water. Animals or rodents might be found floating in the water that would later be used for cooking, drinking, and other household uses. In Hebrew, this water was termed "still waters" because of deadness of the water. In contrast, the water of running streams was identified as "living waters" as the flowing water sustained life. Shepherds who were herding their flocks in the open would eventually be seeking the "living waters" to sustain them in the arid regions. Without the "living water" in the grazing lands, the shepherd and the sheep would die, therefore, the shepherd would seek out the "living waters" of river streams or Wadi flows. "Living water" was also the source for the ritual purification baths whereas the water that was used in the seamless mikvah was received from water untouched by human hands. So, where does this fit in the Bible? 5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. 7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) 9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. 10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:5-14) Jacob's well has two sources of water, both from the surface and from the underground, so the water could be determined to be either "living water" or "still water" depending on the content of the water. The woman came to the well to draw water knowing that wells were normally a source of "still water". Jesus spoke to her and offered her the gift of God, the gift of "living waters" that would never die. Jesus offered her a sustaining, everlasting supply of life that could not be offered by any other person. "Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst." Jesus doesn't give a drink from a "still water" source that will be stagnant and filled with bacteria. Jesus is the source of "living water" that will flow continuously and never run dry. <span style=\'color:green\'>Funny thing... you say that archaeology doesn't support the Bible, and then you cite a source that is fully supported by archaeological findings, i.e. cisterns and mikvah, and historical supports such as the Jewish teachings on "living" and "still" waters. I don't think that there is an archaeological finding in Israel (Iron AgeII to Second Temple) that doesn't support the Bible. On the other hand, many of the archaeological findings from Iron Age II - present stand in the face of the bom, i.e. metalluragy, shipbuilding, cairns and dolmens, petroglyphs, metal plates....etc. etc. etc. and BTW... stela 5 is not a good archaeological support for Lehi's "tree of life". ~serapha~

And... back at ya.... I haven't called "you" the devil or told you that you were going to hell yet. ~serapha`

Would you say that a little louder.... and stand up the next time someone "shovels" from christianforums about the conduct of members there.... you remember when you guys trolled the site... ~serapha~ You know, Serapha, your constant exaggeration is getting wearisome. "You guys" was two people. No more, no less. And the trolls from ChristianForums did so much more than anyone here did. Why don't you wake up and smell the coffee and admit the truth? As long as you continue to lie about it, it will stand between God and you. Quote please... or as I like to post it put up or shut up. ~serapha~