serapha

Would you say that a little louder.... and stand up the next time someone "shovels" from christianforums about the conduct of members there.... you remember when you guys trolled the site... Did you find contention there because it was what you were looking for? Man, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You did hit it on the head. I'm looking for decent discussion... not bashing ... I would like to learn something here.. but that's impossible under the governing authortities who would rather "rant and rave" about "anti-s" than make a concerted effort to "teach" or "reach" people with the "truth" about mormonisn. Everyone on here "yells" about how badly the CoJCoLDS's is misunderstood, I see missed opportunites on this site in almost every posting. If your denomination holds any 'truth" then use the forum to build up instead of adding to the destruction. just so you know... I have seen a couple of conversions in the past 4-5 weeks on other forums. You do get exactly what you seek... If you seek converts, you will find them... If your purpose on this forum is just to bash other forums, other denominations, or even to bash your own church teachings, then don't wonder why you don't see conversions through this site. How about making a committment that all of the members will only post positive responses for just one day. Would that be asking too much of the "regulars" on here? ~serapha~

BRM? You mean Elder McConkie? BRM makes an odd acronym (e.g., Bowel Rumbling Movement). Elder McConkie, from what I understand, was the most frequently censured General Authority to ever hold that calling. The Church came down on him often for proffering his opinion as doctrine. Thus, in my personal view, his credibility is questionable, at best. Accordingly, I tend to shy away from his teachings and publications unless he is quoting scripture in the correct context or staying right in line with noncontroversial doctrine. Other than that, you can have him. Why did he remian a GA for so long? Why wasn't he removed from his office, if he was "leading others astray" by his writings, talks, and opinions? Why weren't rebuttals and corrections offered by THE CHURCH re: his heresies? Eh? "splain THAT! Can a GA be removed from office? I thought it was a lifetime position. ~serapha~

Has anyone ever been converted to mormonism though this message board? I mean, I see people converted on other message boards because of the efforts of the members to "reach out" to people. Does the constant bantering and bashing here ever bring people inside the doors of the CoJCoLDS's? ~serapha~

Hi there! So... Are there inconsistencies in reading the scriptures? "take this literally" "take this figuratively" "don't take this at all"? Kind of a do as I say and not as God said interpretation? just curious ~serapha~

The question came from this statement. I thought the different "titles" must have specific meanings. ~serapha~

6 And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all. And blessed art thou, Nephi, because thou believest in the Son of the most high God; wherefore, thou shalt behold the things which thou hast desired. And the basis for being blessed is? That Nephi believed in his father's dream? No, for Lehi told Nephi, and Nephi says, "And my father said..." Therefore, the basis for being blessed was a belief in what his eartly father said, not in the dream itself. 13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white. 18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh. hmmmmmmmm. and how did Nephi know it was the city of Nazareth? Nazareth did not exist either by the name of Nazareth or any other name in 600 BC. The village of Nazareth was establish approximately 100 BC. There is no archaeological evidence of inhabitation during the Persian and early Hellenistic periods. Archaeology just doesn't support the book of mormon. 25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God. So is the interpretation of the tree, the love of God or the fulfillment of a Messiah bringing eternal life? Or, is it the river that is the continuous flowing of the love of God? 33 And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world. I realize that Nephi is seeing into the future, but please explain how he recognizes a crucifixion on a cross. Brant Gardner states, "The absence of the cross as an image in the Book of Mormon bears at least some mention in connection with the prevalence of the cross in Mesoamerica. The primary association of the Mesoamerican cross was the tree of life, and has no context at all as an instrument of death. If there were any connection at all between those symbols and the Book of Mormon, they would have entered after the visit of Christ to the Americas, and not as a result of Nephi's dream." Now, George Potter and Richard Wellington use the Wadi Tayyib al-Ism as the basis for all of the symbolism of the dream of Lehi and Nephi. "Nibley suggested that the elements of Lehi's dream scenery were made up of the images that surrounded him: "That is natural enough, for men to dream by night of the things they see by day--that is what makes Lehi's dream so convincing as authentic testimony." (Lehi, 81 evidences, page 41) Additionally, the Near East had allegoriccal imagery of "a tree planted upon earth by the mother goddess, Ianna/Ishtar. The sacred tree, usually represented in teh form of a stylized palm tree growing ona mountain, is the most common decorative motif in Assyrian royal iconography." (Simo Parpola, Lehi, 81 evidences, page 44) The cosmic tree is associated with the mother of God and the date palm which is the "tree of life" in the Wadi Tayyib al-Ism. So, all of the symbolism of the tree of life dream is representative of the Wadi Tayyib al-Ism, as each description from the dream is identified in a physical sense in the wadi? The Tree of Life A dark and Ddeary wilderness The large and spacious field A tree with white fruit The river The strait and narrow path The rod of iron the mist of darkness the great and spacious building the awful gulf the depths of the fountain... all these are symbolism of the Valley of Lemuel? But representative of the love of God? ~serapha~

You baptize mythological figures? Why? Just in case they aren't mythological? Has satan been baptized in the CoJCoLDS's? ~serapha~

for clarity.... Light is unlike any other form of matter. It has three properties. These properties are inseperabl, without them there is no light. Just like God. Without the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, there would be no God. Each is coequal, coeternal, and coinfinite. Light's three properties are the actinic (analogous to the Father), luminiferous (analogus to the Son), and the Calorific (analogous to the Holy Spirit). The actinic property is the property of light which is neither seen nor felt. The luminiferous property of light is both seen and felt, while the calorific property is not seen but it is felt. It is not "modalism" if the entirity of God is the entirity of all three persons ever present, ever powerful, all knowing, eternal. They are not "modes" of God.... as "modalism" implies, and yes, most LDS's seem to identify "modalism" even though they do not use the word.... but the separation of Heavenly Father and Son to different "modes" of God. ~serapha~

Hi there! Correct me if I am wrong, but the CoJCoLDS's adheres to each statement of the Apostle's Creed. ~serapha~

Would someone mind defining the following terms and, if possible, give an example from the bom... are any of the "Spirits" the same? Spirit Holy Spirit Spirit of the Lord Spirit of God Spirit of truth ~serapha~

Praying. :) ~serapha~

Well, because I know that the bom says that the jaredites traveled across the waters. I was reading on "how" the early ships were built... not nailed together, but the boards sewn together with rope. So, I was reading to see how the ship was described. In doing so, I read something that seemed to indicate that possibly the "ships" were underwater... such as no fires. BTW... it was a monumental task to gather everything that would be needed for a voyage of a year's duration. The amount of provisions for the people as well as the repairs to the ship, and then to include "fish"... etc. ~serapha~

The point I am trying to make is this... If the CoJCoLDS's gave their word that they would cease the practice of baptizing the dead for the Jewish holocaust victims ... why isn't their "word" any good? THAT's the fabrication. That a church would say one thing and then do another. ~serapha~

BTW.... I just "rejoice" and say, "Thank you, Jesus"... when I see "ugliness" and "nastiness" on the internet presented as a Christian walk for a JW or a LDS, or others who are not mainstream Christians... Who wants to be that type of Christian... one that is noted for being "ugly"???? and BTW... I did say, "Thank you, Jesus" several times while reading these responses. And on the other hand, it saddens me to see mainstream Christians behave in the same manner... being "ugly" and thinking that they are presenting something that someone might want. No one wants "ugly". Ammon... twhite is the most impressive LDS I have had the pleasure of having discussions with.... Never condemning, always patient.... ~serapha~

Hi Ammon, <grin> There are a lot of "snags"... But concerning apologetics... when it goes to the personal level rather than professional responses, people are turned off to any denomination. The Christianity forum are just that... question and answer forums, or discussion panels. They aren't designed to be whipping posts for individuals with personal insults. It has been interesting to "watch" this thread (and others).... It appears that when a question is raised that criticizes the CoJCoLDS's, the criticism is re-directed to the person rather than the issue. Personally, I like your responses.... ~serapha~

Hi there! I am not LDS. LDS's believe in a trinitarian God, but a different interpretation of trinitarianism than mainstread Christianity. The main difference in the view of the trinitarian Godhead of mainstream Christianity and the view of the CoJCoLDS's is the concept of an ontological God. To explain, an example of ontology, view the Father, Son, and Holy Spirt as a three-leaf clover. They are three separate entities performing separately from each other, yet connected at some point... but not connected at all points at all times. The trinitarian God is best explained with the example of light. There are three forms of light that are existent at one time. If one property of light is not existent, then there is no light. The three persons of the trinity are omnipresent all the time, each permeating the other beings as the totality of God. Everywhere present, always one. ~serapha~

I heard today on a radio broadcast that the Jews were taking the CoJCoLDS's back to court for baptizing the holocaust victims in a baptism of the dead.... that the CoJCoLDS's had been baptizing the Jews who died in the holocaust to give them a chance at salvation... but that the practice was outlawed by the courts in 1995... But now, it is brougth to light that the CoJCoLDS's has continued to baptize the dead Jews against court order. True or Not True? ~serapha~ http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/arch...4/11/2003136234

It's Christ... and a new "title" of "condescension of God" ~serapha~

First of all, this is only the beginning of Chapter 3 in the original text, so when and where were the chapter and verse identifications changed? 4 Yea, even six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews--even a Messiah, or, in other words, a Savior of the world. If the text is given in 1830, is this really a prophecy, and as we are aware, a fulfillment of prophecy? 8 Yea, even he should go forth and cry in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight; for there standeth one among you whom ye know not; and he is mightier than I, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. And much spake my father concerning this thing. So, the prophecy is given, a quotation from the New Testament, which is yet to come, since this text is written at 600 BC. In actuality, then , is the bom the middle testament between the Old Testament and the New Testament, and not "another testament of Jesus Christ"?? Just for clarity, there is no punctuation in the Isaiah text or the New Testament quotatiaon of the same text. The comma (after Lord) delineates the text to become denominational. The Essenes, which whom the LDS's identify, accepted the passage to read "In the wilderness prepare ye the way of the Lord" and thus, their isolation from civilization and living in communities such as Qumran. The argument is substantiated by John the Baptist being in the wilderness before declaring the way of the Lord. 12 Yea, even my father spake much concerning the Gentiles, and also concerning the house of Israel, that they should be compared like unto an olive-tree, whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon all the face of the earth. But in Romans, the branches are not scattered, but at a later time, they are grafted back in ... 14 And after the house of Israel should be scattered they should be gathered together again; or, in fine, after the Gentiles had received the fulness of the Gospel, the natural branches of the olive-tree, or the remnants of the house of Israel, should be grafted in, or come to the knowledge of the true Messiah, their Lord and their Redeemer. and the olive tree will not produce with only natural branches, but there is a need for the wild olive tree branches to bring the natural olive tree into producing olives. Even today, concerning olive trees, the original tree is kept, and when branches are no longer producing, then new branches are graphed in. I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men. Just as in Old Testament times, the people only received the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Did they ever receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the bom? 19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round. So, the discernment of the Holy Spirit was given to them when? 21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever. What is "probation"? When is the judgment-seat of God which is the term used here? at the resurrection or another time? I thought that during the 1,000-year reign of Christ which is after the first resurrection, that there would be a time when people could be given another "chance"... this passage indicates that there is no "second chance". But then, why baptize the dead? Isn't the baptism of the dead done to provide a chance at redemption? ~serapha~

Ether 1:2 2 And I take mine account from the twenty and four plates which were found by the people of Limhi, which is called the Book of Ether. And, are these plates are not a part of the composite bom set of plates? So, there are several sets of plates hidden somewhere in the world yet to be discovered? Ether 1:34 34 And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our words. And, to understand, Jared is the kinly lineage while his brother is the priestly lineage? Ether 1:35 35 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon Jared; therefore he did not confound the language of Jared; and Jared and his brother were not confounded. Am I to understand that Jared was given a revelation from God concerning the confounding of languages..... a prophecy that God was going to disperse the people? ... and then Jared tells the priestly brother to intercede so the fate of the jaredites would be changed? Ether 1:37 37 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did cry unto the Lord, and the Lord had compassion upon their friends and their families also, that they were not confounded. So, intercessory prayer can be made for "friends and their families" with the expectation that God will answer concerning friends and friend's families regardless of their spiritual state? Ether 2:2 2 And they did also lay snares and catch fowls of the air; and they did also prepare a vessel, in which they did carry with them the fish of the waters. Does anyone have a clue of the magnitute of this endeavor and the spacial needs that would be required to transport the "fowls" and the "fish" as well as to supply the physical needs of the people? 5 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been.... Is this Saudi Arabia, and the "quarter" where no one lives in the desert? 7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people. The trip took a year which corresponds to the 344-day current that crosses the Pacific... but the general location is understood to be via the Med or Black Sea and going across the Atlantic. Again, any ideas on the spacial requirements to even carry enough water and provisions to survive a year? Ether 2:12 12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written. How is the determination made that the God of the land of promise, c. 2700 BC was Jesus Christ? Did the Jaredites serve Jesus Christ? Then why the suggestions of the priestly line through Jared's brother? 15 And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my Spirit will not always strive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my thoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land choice above all other lands. So, if the Jaredites worshiped Jesus Christ, did they have the Holy Spirit also, or is this just a reference to the Spirit sent by God but not indwelling the man. They had to carry fresh water for the 22 friends (males) plus their familieds. That alone is a monumental task. It is estimated that it would take 2200 gallons of water... minimum, and that would only be a 6-week supply. A question, were the barges traveling under water on on surface? ~serapha~

Hi there! Concise is always good, paraphrased in four words. "pick and choose method" ~serapha~

Hi there! My sinful state killed Christ. I inherited that sinful state from the first man, Adam, and I was delivered from that sinful state by the death and resurrection of Christ. It doesn't matter who drove the nails into His hand or who pierced His side. It was a fulfillment of prophecy that Jesus would die by crucifixion (a Roman tradition, Psalm 22)and by law (the Sanhedrin decision, Isaiah 53:7) ~serapha~

BTW.... My children made it though high school just fine... but they were never "unsupervised". They were never permitted to go anywhere that there wasn't a parent or a responsible person in charge of them. YOu might say... "You were too strict"... no, I wasn't... In a sense, they were given an excape.... "my parents won't let me" saved them from a lot of heartache. As a mom, I would like to see you spared heartache in your "growing up" years. Build up the "friendship" and hold off on the "relationship" ~serapha~

A question concerning the book of mormon.... Brant Gardner writes... "In the original version of the text, which separated chapters but not verses, this information is tacked on to the end of the Lehi vision, and the Nephi vision begins the next chapter. The placement of the verses there confirms that these serve as some soft of transition, but what kind?" My question is this... What was the structure of the original bom? Was it only chapters with the colophons? Who decided to divide up the chapters and make verses, or as this text cites... who changed the chapters? Is there an article somewhere that gives the early history and the changes, and why the changes were felt to be necessary. The bom, being written in something described as "reformed Egyptian" obviously differs from the Hebrew and early which contained no punctuation. All of the chapters breaks and verse identities were added later to the Bible, sometimes changing the intent of the text by breaking the flow of the text into chapters (Matthew 23 flowing into Chapter 24, for instance). 2 And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; wherefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name; and these plates also are called the plates of Nephi. These are the brass plates, both large and small... so what is on the gold plates? 2 And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; wherefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name; and these plates also are called the plates of Nephi. The timeframe at the bottom of the page is 600-592 BC, and I read somewhere that Nephi wrote this book about 30 years later, while in mesomerica... Are all the wars identified in this passage "done" within that 30-year time span? ~serapha~

<grin> My French is somewhat lacking.... but I ran it though a translator. Not to worry, one of my children majored in French and will be home this weeking. They will translate for me if I have questions. I don't have a lot of time... I have a lot to read before "working" this year... and then, I will be "working" out of country later in the year also... all that takes "time". ~serapha~