Upcountry

Selek, I greatly appreciate your response above. I can only testify that my initial article starting this thread was not meant to demean other members of any faith or non faith. I can understand how other societies would embrace other doctrines. I do not condemn them at all because I would like to believe that the God of this world is loving, merciful and just for all. I would hope to have those same qualities except that I certainly will not judge anyone. The hope for salvation that I find in joining an established religion is based on the fact that I personally can somewhat understand LDS doctrine better than the other churches that I might have joined. LDS doctrine makes sense to me personally and logically. I probably would have remained an agnostic were it not for LDS teachings filtered through my common sense and experiences. As I reflect on this thread, I sympathize with Brother Joseph. He had to bring forth a new (restored) faith that claimed exclusivity (temples and ordinances were for members only), that fostered a society that, except for missionary work, was self contained, and that taught religious doctrines that contradicted established teachings in very fundamental ways to a very religious population. And, he had to fight Satan's influence. Absent unbecoming Divine intervention, Joseph could only have succeeded in the frontier of early America. Perhaps, that is why this land was held apart. Thanks again for all your comments.

It is not membership in a Morman or LDS church that saves us. We are saved by access to The (True) Priesthood - the same authority as that of the Early Church and Adam. Those members were neither Mormons nor LDS. That said, I very much appreciate your thoughts and those of the earlier writer Mathew0059. I am a scientist trained to be a skeptic, to depend on observation and logic, and to distrust faith. Yet I love God instinctively (I assume He exists) and believe Him to be loving, merciful and just. I also believe that the True Church may be determined by the consistency of their doctrine. That is why I am a stickler for theory and definitions. So far, the LDS Church has provided such consistency that I have become ever more convinced as I dig deeper into our scriptures.

Continuation from above. When Jesus had become without blemish (by Baptism, by His office as Only Begotten, and by an earthly life worthy of His office, there remained The Sacrifice that we call The Atonement. Eve had broken the Law using her agency to act freely for herself. Adam had ratified Eve's action with His Priesthood (perhaps a love story) by breaking the lesser of the two Laws he knew. Note that Adam did not ask God's advice for this choice: Adam made his choice on his own. Jesus had to atone for a Law broken by a Child of God using the agency given to her. Unlike the innocent lamb who is unaware of what is to come, Jesus had to know what to expect during His sacrifice and he had to make it of His own free will. Scriptures are very explicit that Jesus used His free will to satisfy the requirement of The Father (thy will - not mine be done). Scriptures also say that Jesus could have ended the sacrifice at any time. Pilate did not want to crucify Him and would have taken any excuse to let Him go. Jesus willingly submitted Himself to the requirements of the Law as a Lamb to the slaughter - innocent but He was aware of what He was doing. Only this free will offering by one without blemish could atone for Eve's free will action (of course eating the fruit may be an allegory for something far deeper). It may be significant that Jesus was crucified under the civil (Rome) and religious (High Priesthood) authority of the world of Abraham - the covenant people. Added: Together they represented the World. And so, Jesus was born without blemish from Adam. His baptism removed the blemish from Eve and He became perfect – suitable for the sacrifice to atone for the Eve’s choice to violate The Law on earth. The Only Begotten had a second task beyond His sacrificial role: He had to establish a Church for John’s Baptism. All that were ever born are subject to Eve’s blemish. The living can remove it if they believe and are baptized. The Dead cannot. This Church had to exist in the latter days to provide the infrastructure and Authority for John’s Baptism for those who died without the Gospel. The Sacrament had to be done on earth since that is where the infraction occurred. The Church had to endure to the end. This is one explanation why John’s Baptism, Christ’s Atonement, a Latter Day Church, a Sabbath, a Sacrament, and all of the attendant rituals for a cohesive social society is required for salvation.

Our knowledge of the laws of physics is constantly advancing and changing. It is dangerous to pin any argument on science as known today. 120 years ago, we thought we knew all the laws of physics and just had to refine the accuracy of the numbers. Then we discovered radioactivity and quantum theory. 20 years ago, we thought we knew about all the observable matter in the universe. Then we discovered dark matter and energy and realized that our type of matter is only 5% of the matter that is actually there. We used to think that the world was deterministic, solid, and continuous. Now we think the world is probabilistic, fuzzy, and discrete. We did not know about galaxies without apparent end. We is just realizing how little we know. But I have confidence that we will eventually discover the truth. There may even be a part explaining how God is an intelligent being and our Father. Aftre all, we are the Children of God. Who knows what awaits us?

Jesus could create worlds and turn cats into rats if He wished (with the power of His Father). But He cannot impinge on our agency. We are different from the world and all of its creatures. There may be requirements to do things in a particular way for reasons we do not understand. Why does the Presiding officer in an ordinance make the priest repeat his sacrament prayer if it is incorrectly said? Why do we always have a clear line of authority in our meetings? I have postulated that some things relating to the Children of God are higher than inert matter and ordinary creatures and, although it may seem strange to us, these things must be done correctly. We have our temples to do these things for those who cannot. Neither Christ nor Satan can meddle with our agency and our ability to make our own choices since we are agents to ourselves. Thank you for your understanding and comments.

The definition of words like “glory” and “perfect” depends on the speaker, the event, the time, and the purpose of the moment. The words have no precise definition, so they cannot be discussed with real meaning. Therefore, I would like to return to First Principles. Christian (and especially LDS) doctrine teaches that we are Children of God – “Heirs of God and joint -heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17-18). LDS are taught that Jesus is our brother and we lived with Him and all of our fellow spirits (including Lucifer) in the pre-existent world with our Father. He had created us and watched us mature into self aware spirit beings. The Father knew us well and loved us all. Father had a physical body: we were spirits only. We were acquainted with, and as His children, we were a part of the Glory of our Father. That is the best I can do to define “Glory”. Jesus was qualitatively the same type of being as we all were. But, (LDS doctrine teaches) as a spirit, He was quantitatively different from us in at least three ways: 1) He was the first born Spirit (there seems an advantage in being the Firstborn). 2) He created our world using the power of His Father. (I conjecture that as a spirit he could not affect the physical world without His Father’s power.) I have read that Michael assisted Him. From this, I conjecture that we all assisted Him. (It would be exquisite irony if those same spirits that designed and placed the dinosaur bones in the earth when it was formed became archeologists and later atheists because of their perceived beauty of The Theory of Evolution.) 3) He was expected to become “The Only Begotten” in the Plan of Salvation. This appointment seems not certain since Lucifer offered himself in the Grand Council. (PGP Moses 4: 1-4.) The Plan of Salvation always assumed that we would fall after we came to earth with the stated purpose to get a body. That was at least one reason for the office of The Only Begotten. We spirits had to be born into our own physical bodies so that we also could affect the physical world and become complete (spiritual and physical) beings – true heirs of the Father. When we fell by Adam’s choice, the ground was cursed for our sake (Genesis 4:17). [This was a Sophie’s Choice: PGP Moses 4:17-18, note the difference with Genesis 4:12, Abraham 5:18. Neither choice was a good one.] That curse changed the earth from a Paradise of peaceful animals of flesh and bones (immortal) to carnivores of flesh and blood (mortal). The blood was now required to transport energy to our cells from eaten flesh of other beings. The earth and all of its inhabitants and their progeny were subject to this curse. The change of the earth and all its creatures because of the curse is incidental – they are only matter and creatures. But the curse on us (done, in part, to protect us) matters greatly. We are to be the Heirs of God. We were made our own agents in the physical world (PGP Moses 6:56) and thus were responsible for our own actions. Removal of the curse required that the connection between it and the Children of God be broken. God cannot say (or will not say) “I hereby revoke the curse”. The physical rite of Baptism correctly done with authority from heaven removes the connection of the curse to all those born of woman (Jesus included – Satan and his followers are not eligible since they were never born). You must be born “again” {King James} and “from above” {Catholic Bible} and “of water” (John 3:3-5). If we believe, (I take this to mean we choose to do it) we can be baptized for ourselves (Mark 16:16). Passed spirits require baptism by proxy and they must accept it – but, in all cases, it must be done correctly to have effect. That leaves Adam as the only connection to the curse. The genealogy of Adam is given in Luke as God. (Luke 3: 38). But Adam and his descendents were cursed. However, Jesus is different from Adam and all the rest of humanity in one more way: He is the Only Begotten. Because of the virgin birth doctrine, Jesus’ Father is The Father. Jesus is not subject to the curse through Adam’s line. Being baptized, Jesus is not subject to the curse through Eve All this brings us to the definition of “Perfect”. Perfect means acceptable in the eyes of God. Acceptable animal sacrifices were supposed to be “without blemish”. But how would the peasant know whether the lamb offered had a hidden cancer? The supplicant would only know is that he thought it was without blemish and that it was the best he could do. I am fairly certain that this made it acceptable to God. But removal of the major curse on all of the Sons of Adam required divine action to make it acceptable. That is the best I can do to define “perfect”. I am a physicist who attends his ward but has not been to the temple. I claim neither special spiritual authority nor special scriptural knowledge and submit this for your kind comments. It seems to me to be a beautiful hypothesis. I do stand in amazement at the subtle writings of Joseph in the Pearl of Great Price. to be continued below.

You will note that I said But in your heart, you know the left door is the correct door for you. So the choice is not a guess. You know what is right. That knowledge is either from your experience in the Pre-existence that is not blotted out by the veil or by the natural tendency of a Child of God to do the right thing. (Is this the :Light of Christ"). Some people seem to have a desire to do good - some evil. That may be a residual from their personality formed earlier. Re: new born: I can not judge why your new born dies. Some Ideas: the randomness of this physical world or the actions of another person. I do not like the explanation that it was God's will or that it was as a test pf another since I believe God is loving. I know that LDS doctrine considers that baby a soul worthy of sealing whereas a still born (without the breath of life) is not. God (Jesus) has created a bountiful world for us. He cannot control what his children do with it but there will be consequences. We will probably mess it up as we are doing now. If the baby was cheated of a full life by the free agency of someone, I believe that person will have to face some consequences. I can imagine many scenarios. As for the baby, there will be other opportunities just as there will be opportunities for all to set all things right in the "Great Sorting Out" before WE find our final position in the next stage of our development. Personally, I think free agency refers to every choice. It would be hard to limit choices to just between good or evil. Life is more subtle and complicated than that.

I believe the term in our LDS scripture scripture is agency. Agency implies that we work for or represent another. I believe the only agency we have is to align ourselves with either good (G-d) or evil (Satan). As I understand we are not free agents representing ourselves - because we do not even really know who we are. As I understand the default condition of our agency in mortality is to be aligned with Satan. That is problematic because Satan intends to eliminate any choice we wish to exercise concerning agency thus by default we would become agents of him. The Traveler Reply With Quote My understanding of agency is different. The definition of agency is an important point. Suppose you are standing in front of two doors. You may choose to enter either. If you are a programed rob, you would not have agency. But you are given the right to make your own choice. The fact that you may chose either door is agency. You choose the left one. As you approach it to enter, you begin to feel pain (or lack of pleasure. When you approach the other door, you feel less pain (or more pleasure). But in your heart, you know the left door is the correct door for you. So you brave the pain and enter the left door. You have exercised your agency freely. You have chosen for yourself and must bear the consequences. If the pain were unbearable so that you could not ever enter the left door or if there were a physical barrier, you would not have had "free" agency. You would not be responsible for your forced choice. I realize God uses only "agency" in Moses 4:4. But I interpret this agency as as the power to chose The first free agency choice was made in the pre-existence. !/3 chose to follow Lucifer. He must have had a persuasive argument because he got a lot of his fellow spirits to freely choose his side. As I understand it, that was the first time we exercised our free agency on anything that mattered. Adam made the first free agency choice on this earth. As I understand it, he had to choose between the lesser of two laws to break. 1) cleave to his wife or 2) don't eat the fruit. There was no way out for him. He had to disobey one or the other. As Children of God, it is given to them (us) to become "agents unto themselves" with the power to "know good from evil" (Moses 6:56). We are our own agents and we can choose freely and are responsible. True, we are learning. This world is a time for testing, teaching and training to use our potential immense power for good.

Since we are spirit beings with free agency formed in the pre-existence and placed on earth without memory and with a physical body which is sometimes defective, how can we on earth judge anything about fundamental character by just our observation of the person? Is someone with old age dementia any less of a person than he was in the vigor and intelligence of his youth? Perhaps, the physical body is subject to mechanical error because of the randomness inherent in this physical world. The spirit then has to work through the physical limitations of the defective body. If we were all physically perfect, that would be a proof of the existence of God and violate the premise of Free Agency

I do not know. But a search of Google yielded: According to Radkey, records obtained in 1998 show that Adolf Hitler was "baptized" and "endowed" on December 10, 1993, and "sealed" to his parents on March 12, 1994. Both place in the London Temple, England. Source: Utah Lighthouse Ministry I cannot provide the URL according to the rules. All I am saying is that we do not judge those who we baptize nor do we expect them to become LDS. Everyone will be able to accept or reject this rite. Of course, God would have a veto power. He said I will forgive whom I will forgive ... D&C 64 34-35.

I do not mean to bash another church or even non-believers. Their churches do good work in that they bring thoughts of God and do service to our fellow man. There are exceptions both in the present and in history. I do not mean that other Christian churches are not correctly called Christian. They follow Christ. It is just that (as far as I can tell) the essence of our temple work is to perform work for all the world that the world cannot perform for themselves. That is why we submit their names. That we baptize them in our temples is no reflection on their goodness or worthiness. Baptism correctly done by LDS in our temples seemed to me to be a required rite for everyone - not just LDS. I did not intend this as "bashing" - just a statement of the obvious. Hence, I am astonished that I am thought bigoted. Nevertheless, I accept the verdict of the community and offer my apologies. Upcountry

By “all Christian Churches” I mean those without the “True” Priesthood. LDS is certainly a Christian church but because it also has the Priesthood, it is also the “true church”. Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches do not perform the rite of baptism with authority or correctly. Of course, they call themselves Christian but that is not what Joseph calls them. God calls them "wrong". I call them "not true". Same meaning. Their rites are meaningless. That is why we baptize for them! It does not matter that they call their rites essential and not symbolic. To us, since they are not correctly performed and can change form with the wind, they are what I mean when I say “symbolic” Re: body parts etc., it doesn’t matter where it crept in. It was part of the religious network that Joseph was asked to join. Since they were all wrong, Joseph could not join any of them. Of course, LDS is a restored church and a continuation of that founded by Jesus and the early Apostles. It is not a new church. Must we discuss trivia? Symbolic baptism is where you can baptize an infant by sprinkles or where you deem a person baptized because you say that he wanted it in his heart. A required rite must be done correctly in all parts. Your car will not run on water even if you are certain you have filled it with gas. Many of the members do not care. But their leaders do and the policies of their organizations do care. That is why the LDS Church is very careful about who they baptize and ask permission of their families. They got into extensive troubles with the Jews and Catholics. Did I not indicate that the “widow’s mite” would be accepted up there in the red part? That other religions are sincere matters not. When Joseph was asked if one must be a Mormon to be saved, he said yes! And he answered correctly given the premise of the question. The Prophet's Answer to Sundry Questions "I answered the questions which were frequently asked me, while on my last journey but one from Kirtland to Missouri, as printed in the Elders' Journal, Vol. 1, Number 2, pages 28 and 29 as follows: Third [question]-- "Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?" Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness. To his mind, since our church had the only priesthood, and that was at that time the only way to get baptized, he answered correctly.

But what did Christ mean in mark 16:16? He was talking to all humanity. Saved is to "believe and be baptized." Exultation seems much more and seem to requires a Celestial Marriage to have spirit children. If Elder McConkie said that which is above who am I to argue. But I must ask for clarity. Are those in the lesser parts of the Celestial Kingdom not saved? It seems Elder is saying that for other faiths, to be saved is to be resurrected. But we are all to be resurrected. That is one of the things the Atonement does. What did Christ mean when He said saved? He knew His words would be widely quoted. Don't non LDS families have a hope for the Celestial Kingdom, with sealing and Exultation? What do we call those who are baptized but are not and will not become married? Are they not saved? Perhaps this is too difficult to answer. It seems a clear question.

Then what is the difference between saved and exalted? Surely, that must be established. Must I go to Google to find: " The Plan for Our Progression Gospel Principles: Ch 47 When we lived with our Heavenly Father, He explained a plan for our progression. We could become like Him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from Him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father’s commandments even though we were no longer in His presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience. From the scriptures we learn that there are three kingdoms of glory in heaven. The Apostle Paul mentioned that he knew a man who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12:2). Paul named two of the kingdoms in heaven: the celestial and the terrestrial (see 1 Corinthians 15:40–42). The celestial is the highest, and the terrestrial is second. Through latter-day revelation we learn that the third kingdom is the telestial kingdom (see D&C 76:81). We also learn that there are three heavens or degrees within the celestial kingdom (see D&C 131:1)." While I don't know the difference between CK #1 and #2, surely the Father lives in #3 with his family. Thanks anyway Upcountry

I will need some time to chew on that. Back when I skim Gospel Principles manual

If the word definition requested is of Exaltation, I guess I am unable to do so. However, this word "Exaltation" is extensively used. Somewhere, no doubt, there is an LDS dictionary definition. It seems to be a different definition from "Saved". If "saved" means to be in the Celestial Kingdom (because it requires baptism), and Exaltation is better than saved (perhaps because it requires Celestial marriage), then my definition seems reasonable. If the word you wish to define is "sin", that seems to be open for discussion. Likewise the word "perfect". One reason I am on this site is to find out these things. Please help. I am not trying to be a pain. But precise definitions of words are extremely hard to find. Thanks, Upcountry

New thoughtOf course, because God commanded him to. But why did God have to have a new church? That is what I tried to explain. If the new wine comments are directed at me, I guess I am. The Catholic Church has so changed the rite of Baptism that it is meaningless. Sprinkles?? I leave it to your expertise to say whether the others post a claim our priesthood and perform the rite correctly. They call themselves Christian so I guess they are according to their definition but would you call them the "True Church"? I don't. If you have another church with the properties of LDS in mind, let me know. I will investigate them. Is there another significant faith that practices Baptism for the Dead? Which one? The Jews, Muslims and the Catholic Church will not let us baptize their dead members. They also condemn us as heretics for our belief in the separate beings of Father and Son. An a true Muslim will try to kill us. Of course there are good members in all churches and even those that are unbelievers. That is why I placed that paragraph in RED. Are they not working against us?

Definitions matter. Exalted mean in the top level of the Celestial Kingdom. Perfect means without mistake. Perhaps perfect is also without sin. Apparently, Christ's family did not think he was particularly perfect. They did not seem to hold him in particular awe. Perhaps sinless means something else. So what is the definition of sin? Perhaps sin is committing a crime against someone's free agency - a crime against another Child of God Christ may have been the only one capable of the Atonement because He was the "Only Begotten" chosen before the world began and having a special Father. This is different from "perfect". This discussion seems similar to the one about "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin". All that matters is that The Father accepted the sacrifice of The Son.

Heather: I have read the rules. I think this is no more controversial than some of what Joseph said himself. Please judge. I will accept your verdict. Sorry if it is too long. When 14 year old Joseph Smith went to the grove to ask which church to join, all Christian churches (and all major churches on earth) believed (and still believe) that: 1) God is a spirit without body, parts, or passions; and, 2) The Christian rite of baptism denoting entrance into the Christian Faith is symbolic. It is not a required ordinance of God. If God is spirit only, then the resurrected Jesus cannot be the same personage as God the Father as demanded by the Trinitarian Doctrine that The Father and the Son are one God. They cannot be the same God if the Son has a body and God the Father is a spirit only. [The claim that God the Son is the physical manifestation of God the Father is difficult to accept since the resurrected body of Jesus plays such a prominent role in Christianity and since we are all to be resurrected]. Jesus’ teaching of Mk: 16:16: “believe and be baptized and be saved; believe not and be damned” could not have been more explicit. It is a requirement. And, if a properly administered physical baptism is a requirement to enter heaven (for reasons unknown), then a loving and just god must provide a method for baptism for those already dead. Otherwise, heaven would be limited to those hearing the churches’ missionaries. If, instead, these words mean baptism is a just a symbol of membership in the Christian Church, as many Christian believe today, then any ritual called “Baptism” can provide the key to heaven. Mankind will gradually drift away from the baptism done in the correct form - just as the Reformed LDS Church has drifted away from the Doctrine of Baptism of the Dead. In Acts, Chapter 19: 1-7, Paul showed us that baptism is not merely a symbol of the Christian faith. He re-baptized those who thought themselves Christians. He also showed us that we can examine doctrine to determine whether a particular church is true or false. Logic plays a role in selection of a religion. "By their fruits you shall know them" also means there can be no significant counterfeits. Thus, Joseph Smith was told not to join any church since every church on earth at the time was wrong on at least these two points: the Trinity and the nature of baptism. A belief that God is a pure spirit does not really matter except for the logical error – an error not to be expected in the doctrine of a “True Church”. But a belief that baptism is a symbol and not a physical requirement matters greatly. A symbol can be modified with the times, de-emphasized, and even eliminated in a burst of ecumenical fervor (as is happening now). A physical requirement must be satisfied with the proper authority (the Priesthood) and in the proper form. It doesn't matter what you think, or what you think you do. It only matters what you do. In Luke 4:6, Satan said “that [the world] is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it”. The world today worships a god of spirit without body, parts or passion. As Latter Day Saints, we are taught that The Father and The Son, Jesus, both have a body, that Satan is only a spirit and that baptism is a requirement not just a symbol of acceptance. Thus, to the world, LDS seem to be the cult of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Christian world, while to LDS we are the True Church in a world of the Church of Satan - AKA the “Great and Abominable Church”, AKA the “Whore of Babylon” (as Joseph said). These other churches also think us to be polytheists. It is notable that we are the only church in the world with these rather obvious doctrines. It seems that “By their fruit you shall know them.” also means that no counterfeit churches are allowed. You can tell the “True Church” by its doctrine. I believe that all mankind is in every way eligible to enter heaven since LDS provides the proper baptism for them. They will be judged as we are judged - by the goodness of their souls. But, since their churches have no priesthood, they cannot participate in God’s ordinances. Their members are spiritually satisfied but they are sterile. Furthermore, their church organizations can and are being used against us as we fulfill our spiritual tasks using the Priesthood restored through Joseph Smith. Why do they do this? Why should they care? This makes no sense to me unless it is a sign that we are the “True” Church. If it were only the choice of which church to join, I would join the LDS church. For me, the existence of God itself is the issue. Scientists view spiritual things with skepticism and cannot include God in any theory. But, we do accept unseen forces by noting their effects on others. When we see that a compass points north, we derive the theory of light. When we see galaxies behaving strangely, we deduce the existence of Black Holes. When I see the insanity in the Middle East and the pain and suffering in the world, I deduce that God and Satan exist and that the Bible contains their messages. Then, selection of the LDS Church as the logical True Church of God is easy. Of course, anyone can choose to be a skeptic. I cannot.

I appreciate your detailed reply and the time you have taken. When my child gets an "A", I am happy because he is a part of ME. He is my glory, my legacy, the difference I have made in the universe. Why don't I feel the same joy for another kid's "A"? He is also a child of God. But he is not my child. If it were truly empathy, I would feel the same for all children. You say: It is because of a very specific trait that I think we share with God, empathy. This is why the most important commandments are to love God and to love thy neighbor as thyself. All people that make it into the Celestial Kingdom share glory. When glory is not shared, to the extreme, is what Satan stands for. He wanted all the glory to himself and by himself without giving credit where credit is due. Worship is a form of developing empathy and the ability to receive glory from the actions of someone else. As that is one of the key traits of those found in the Celestial Kingdom, our gospel is about developing that trait. This is why we serve with an eye single to the glory of God, not to our own glory. People who cannot find joy in the success of others as much as they find it with their own personal success will not find themselves in such a system." We worship because it is an inherent trait in our design - to be part of something bigger than ourselves. We would not be human if we did not love our own father more than our neighbor. Same goes with God. We worship to take satisfaction in this oneness. All societies do this. But only LDS worship to set up the infrastructure for God's Priesthood to function and perform as God needs it to. God has designed us to do this. He needs us to perform these functions. Else all the world would be wasted. Of course, I stand on the shoulders of those who came before. That is what separates humans from the other creatures. We are qualitatively different. Our potential if far greater than theirs. That is what gives us the potential to be like God and take part in Eternal Progression. That is the glory of intelligence. God's glory can be our glory too if we accept the opportunity. I think that the Atonement was a necessary rite to correct an injustice. The rite had to happen by the Free Agency of Jesus just like baptism has to happen by the Free agency of the individual. It is a mysterious part of the joining of the spirit and the physical to their fullest potential. My joy comes when ALL Children of God succeed, not just my small group. My highest gripe about LDS is that they view themselves as so important. We are not the Gatekeepers. We are not special EXCEPT that we are the providers of a Priesthood service the world needs. That is all. Enjoyment that we have had a small part of the Glory of God is all the reward we deserve. Let us not get so puffed up. Everyone has a family. Everyone will be sealed up not just our small family and society. I think the plan of Satan was more subtle and attractive than you say. He wanted souls to give them their proxy to avoid the pain of this world. He would be their light and truth. They would worship him like bees worship their queen. But I digress. Thank you again. Upcountry

We (LDS) believe that we were spirits in the pre-existence along with Jesus and Lucifer. We had no bodies and could not affect the physical world. Although Jesus created the world, he always had to use the power of the Father (a physical being) since as a spirit he had no command over physical matter - only command over ideas. One might argue that spirits cannot sin since they cannot directly affect the free agency of another. That is why they could live with the Father and eat at His table even though they were not perfect. We believe we came to earth to gain a physical body which we probably gain at first breath (which is why stillborn babies are not sealed). Even though spirit is a finer form of physical matter, it is a mistake to have to believe that the two types of matter are connected one to one. The movie "Avatar" is an imaginative example of one scenario. There are many others. String Theory maintains matter has 10 dimensions + time. The two types of matter (spirit and physical) are not connected until the resurrection. Our mortal body is a temporary flesh and blood representation of our resurrected body. If this is not so, how would a vaporized body be resurrected. Jesus was beaten in his earthly representation. The question does not matter as was pointed out above. All that matters is that the Atonement allowed all of us born of woman (including Jesus) to be resurrected. That is what is meant by that to be redeemed from the curse changing Adam from flesh and bone to the mortal body of flesh and blood. (Flesh and Blood bodies require food. In Eden what did the lion eat? Hence, they were probably flesh and bone bodies that were changed by the curse when Adam fell.) That is why Satan could promise to redeem us all that one soul shall not be lost - a truly subtle lie. A lie that took 1/3 of our brothers with him. Satan, who chose not to have a physical body, will not be resurrected since he will not be born again. Baptism seems to be another ordinance that is absolutely necessary to be saved. Why this is we do not know. But the choice for baptism must be freely made by each individual just like Jesus had to choose the Atonement with His free Agency. And baptism must be performed correctly in form and with priesthood authority to have any effect. That is my opinion. Upcountry

Thanks, Sec 129 D&C answers it all. Perfectly consistent. I hold a Ph.D. in physics. Specialty electro-optics. General applied physics. Several patents. Trained in logical thinking. I am trying to develop a theory unifying physics and religion and answering questions like why does God need us, why do we worship, what are Satan's motives and goals. I have been an LDS member for 40 years and attend a ward regularly. I have trouble with blind faith and want to know why The Father and Son do what they do. The logic of Baptism for the Dead was what converted me from an anti-Christian zealot. Later I found the separate Father and Son argument compelling. Since other religions believe God is a spirit only, perhaps they are worshiping Satan adding truth to Smith's saying The Great and Abominable Church - a harlot in that it gives comfort to the worshiper but does not advance the Plan of Salvation. I don't know how to answer messages personally. I keep getting refused I have a blog with the theory explained. Here is the abstract. Abstract Using selected scriptural verses and logical inferences relating to the God of Abraham, I propose a method of interpreting scriptures and world events. From these, I hypothesize that Humans are the children of God and His heirs in every sense. He has given them free agency, a physical body and a bountiful earth to test each of them in their society without memory of a pre-existence. Within the free agency constraint, Jesus and an activist Satan are in an ongoing battle for their allegiance. No matter the goodness of the soul, the atonement by Jesus and baptism by and of those born of woman are voluntary rites required for entry into heaven. This interpretation is consistent with an assumption that God is loving and merciful but not omnipotent. The additional assumption that God is just requires Baptism for the Dead. These concepts are similar to the Teachings of Arius and the Mormon Church. I claim no spiritual authority or special insights. My purpose here is to provide a logical approach for People of the Book to interpret their scriptures - not to change any belief systems.

HI, I am an LDS scientist. Can you touch a spirit being? I joined looking for opinions on this topic I think not for two reasons: First in John 3 talking to Nicodemus: "the wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the spirit. Second, Jesus in talking to Thomas after the resurrection, invited Thomas to thrust his hands into His wounds as if to confirm that He was not just a spirit but a resurrected being. We are telepathic beings - what else is a silent prayer? Perhaps some of the sensation of touching spirits is more in the mind than actual touch. But I doubt a spirit could break your finger for example. Comments? TOG I am new here. email is [moderator removed]