Speakzeasy

It is true that when we commit crime we understand that getting caught brings consequences. Lucifer and the group that followed him must have known what it was that would have happened after rebelling against God, the Father. When Lucifer and his followers rebelled, what prompt/force God, the Father, to impose such a harsh penalty on the rebelling children as to warrant the promises he has made to other children void? (The atonement does not apply to them.) We think here on earth as murder being a crime with no forgiveness. However, David commit murder, Paul consents to murder. And more so in relationship to Paul, because we have more information about him, it does not seem to have influenced the purposes of God using these people for his purposes. David does not lose the promises made to him about Jesus birth, and Paul sees the Lord while traveling and wanting to do great harm to people that he disagrees with in another city. Were David and Paul innocent? Did they get lightly (if at all) punished compared to Lucifer and his followers? If one claims that David and Paul with receive their just reward in the next life. Why then would God knowingly pass on blessings in this life with no punishment? (As in the atonement still applies to David and Paul.)

I am not certain that it was so much the out come that Lucifer wanted, as it was the out come of what it was that he desired to accomplish. His motivation to be "the Christ" and raise himself equal to or above the status of the Christ without proper authority (inheriting from G_d, the Father, that which was given to Jesus), would have changed the entire purpose for which the earth was created. Lucifer must have understood that he was attempting to challenge the legitimate heir (Jesus) to the blessings that G_d, the Father, promised the righteous remnant of the house of Israel. What is missing, as I understand the story (and I have limited knowledge), is how did Lucifer plan to avoid repercussions that would occur with use of the powers of the dark side? (Where did he receive permission to receive the power of darkness?. Was it act of divine law that provided him the opportunity to receive power from the dark side? It appears to be so. Would this be permission?) Is it possible that Lucifer thought that he could in some way use those powers (if received through divine law) from the dark side. Could he have thought to use them to his advantage in the war in heaven to accomplish the desires of his heart and take possession of, or over ride the divine laws that govern the plan to recover the righteous of the house of Israel here upon the earth. Could he have thought of himself as being that smart? (What prevented him from accomplishing his goal? Was it divine laws? If so, why did he ignore them?) It is certain that Lucifer thought himself to be deserving of receiving the inheritance that Jesus received from G_d, the Father. A thought/question: Could Jesus and Lucifer be twins? Jesus first born? Lucifer second born? How would Lucifer challenge an inheritance? Theory. Out there in never land?

The image has two drawings of an artist conception of Dos Pilas. The upper is the city before war broke out (before 761 A.D.) and lower the city after/during a war that broke out (761 A.D.). When looking at the lower drawing one can see the earthen wall and wooden pickets placed on top of earthen wall that enclose the area around the city. Alma 50:1-6 tells of Moroni's effort to protect the Nephite community in a very similar fashion. Moroni had a great deal of time to build walls of protection. What would Moroni's protection look like if the walls were built in a short time frame? Was the idea of a wall with ditches (motes) to much time and labor to build? Did the Lamanites continue Moroni's lead in this type of defense? Google Image Result for http://www.authenticmaya.com/images/dos%2520pilas%2520maketa.jpg I agree, there are discrepancies.

Here is a link (through Google Image search) to a drawing of Dos Pilas, a Mayan city in Guatemala, that was published as a foldout in the February 1993 National Geographic: Google Image Result for http://www.authenticmaya.com/images/dos%2520pilas%2520maketa.jpg Any thoughts about its possible relationship to Alma 50:1-6: 1 AND now it came to pass that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war, or to defend his people against the Lamanites; for he caused that his armies should commence in the commencement of the twentieth year of the reign of the judges, that they should commence in digging up heaps of earth round about all the cities, throughout all the land which was possessed by the Nephites. 2 And upon the top of these ridges of earth he caused that there should be timbers, yea, works of timbers built up to the height of a man, round about the cities. 3 And he caused that upon those works of timbers there should be a frame of pickets built upon the timbers round about; and they were strong and high. 4 And he caused towers to be erected that overlooked those works of pickets, and he caused places of security to be built upon those towers, that the stones and the arrows of the Lamanites could not hurt them. 5 And they were prepared that they could cast stones from the top thereof, according to their pleasure and their strength, and slay him who should attempt to approach near the walls of the city. 6 Thus Moroni did prepare strongholds against the coming of their enemies, round about every city in all the land. (Alma 50:6).

These type of stories about the L.D.S. Temples promote articles such as "Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]." They are what I refer to as faith promoting stories. The truth will never be known. We do not understand who or what spirits are in relationship to the larger picture. People place spirits in a "pigeonhole" of their own understanding without any knowledge of the reality. There is nothing creepy about spirits, good or evil. Truth will surprise all us. Simply because we do not understand what is on the other side of our mortal existence does the idea of spirits scare us. Before the War in Heaven we all got along (there was no war, then there is war). The spirits that took sides with Lucifer could have been our neighbors in heaven. Civil War breaks out and everyone takes sides making other the side the enemy. Sound familiar? The sad part is that both sides simply have a different point of view about an event that caused the difficulty. In the case of Lucifer rebelling against G_d, the Father, because he could not receive Jesus inheritance, promoted him and his followers to a means to help fulfill the covenant that G_d, The Father, made to the house of Israel. Something far more complex then a simple Civil War. At the Council in Heaven I saw the side that the purpose of the earths creation as being for G_d to fulfill his promises (covenants) to the righteous of the house of Israel. I took G_d, the Father, and Jesus side of the issue while in the Council of Heaven. I am not saying one should go practice evil because his friend in heaven did. But closing ones mind to the understanding that there is a living community beyond our present condition as mortals really presents a one sided point of view. It negates the belief in God to an extreme. As an individual with an understanding that there is a pre-mortal and post-mortal existence I can say that the statement that is made by Kathryn H. Kidd may or may not be true. I can tell you that people who, have and have not, had bodies, both good and evil spirits are here upon the earth. I agree with Vort, it is not common (very rare) for mortals to experience someones presents from the other side of the veil. Are members of the L.D.S. Church wanting to "feel" the presence of someone when they attend the Temple? Are they looking for comfort in doing so? I did genealogy at the Family History Library in Salt lake City for 16 years. I spent a many years of my time there as a Library volunteer. I have heard lots of stories that may or may not be true. Everything that we do in society presents the idea of "ghosts" as being an entertainment value (the fun of scaring someone/people in some way or a scary movie that scares someone/people). The therapist tells someone that he/she need more drugs because of a paranormal experience. This, of course, will marginalize the true nature and meaning of the world beyond our current condition as mortals. We speculate about life on the "other side" so that we can console ourself and others. However, we do not know what happens after life. People place restrictions on what life (pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal) is in relationship to the big picture. If Jesus, who is a dead mortal, comes to visit everyone will run for the hills. He should scare them into having heart attacks. However, we have been numbed to the fact of life before birth and after death. If Jesus were to come and walk among us we would lock him up. Simply because he would not be within our pre-conceived idea of how events should occur before his physical presents. Of course prophecy must be fulfilled. But what would keep him from visiting, simply to visit? I have had many a experience with people from the other side of our dual existence. Of course, if we believe in a God, we understand that we are both mortal and spirit. Why is it hard to put together that there are people that we can see without bodies (those who have had bodies, now dead - those that never had bodies, angels and Lucifers followers alike)? My experience with "people" from the other side is not within my capacity to have control over. In other words, I do not choose to make their presents known to me. And how or why they make themselves known to me is something I do not understand. People can point fingers at someone that is open about their paranormal experience. However, this is why people do not share their own paranormal experience with others. I believe in life before birth and life after death. To deny one or both disregards that God created us. Jesus was not born, was not resurrected, nor can he return without an understanding that life is eternal. Mortality is simply birth and death of the moral body. Why do we limit ourselves to the now? Why restrict ourselves to our mortal understanding of a world beyond us that we do not understand? Because I have not gone though the L.D.S. Temple. I get a statement from members of the L.D.S. Church that some how one needs to go through the L.D.S. Temple to experience people's presents beyond the veil. This statement is not made by a very informed group of people. The idea of paranormal experience being given to an exclusive group is hmmmm ... beyond me. I do not share, in anyway, my paranormal experience with people of other faiths. They are numbed to believe that paranormal experience are of evil spirits (at least in my understanding, as it appears they tell me of their belief, which very conditional). The sad part of both L.D.S. church members and non-L.D.S church members is that neither party understands what evil is here upon the earth. Evil is practiced by mortals and we think in restrictions as to how that evil is be practiced. It will surprise all us when we arrive at the moment of understanding of true pre-mortal, mortal and post-mortal existence, and how evil is practiced in our lives from both sides of the veil and by whom it is practiced.

"In 1945, representatives of 50 countries met in San Francisco at the United Nations Conference on International Organization to draw up the United Nations Charter." (History of the United Nations and United Nations Photo: Gallery) (enjoy) United States Signs United Nations Charter June 26, 1945: United Nations Photo The United Nations Charter is a form of treaty: "At the end of World War II, treaties played an important part in shaping post-war U.S. foreign policy. Formal peace treaties were concluded with all belligerents except Germany. The Charters of the United Nations and the Organization of American States established a framework for international cooperation. The North Atlantic Treaty and other regional security treaties built a network of mutual security that endured throughout the Cold War." (TREATIES AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS: THE ROLE OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE) As a treaty the U.S. Constitution requires that the Senate ratifies it: Senate Ratifies United Nations Charter, July 28, 1945 - Andrew Glass - POLITICO.com After the Senate Senate ratifies a treaty, the U.S. Constitution - Article 6 states that: "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding." (Transcript of the Constitution of the United States - Official Text) There were concerns about the signing of the U.N. Charter because of the possibility of it being in conflict with the Constitution: "From time to time concern has been expressed that treaties could have adverse implications for, or the effect of changing, domestic law. For example, the negotiation of human rights treaties under the auspices of the United Nations raised concern in the 1950s that some clauses, if ratified by the United States, might be in conflict with constitutional provisions safeguarding human rights, or that matters clearly in the domestic jurisdiction of the United States could be changed into matters of international concern. Other concerns were that some national powers might be transferred to an international organization, or that powers traditionally reserved to the states could be invaded by transferring them to the Federal Government or international bodies." (TREATIES AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS: THE ROLE OF THE UNITED STATES SENATE) The author of the above paragraph most likely meant the 1940's rather then the 1950's. We are responsible to the United Nations in many ways. An example of this is that we report the signed treaties to U.N. organization: "The office is responsible for the registration of treaties and international agreements with the United Nations pursuant to Article 102 of the Charter of the United Nations. Article 102 provides that State Members of the United Nations have an obligation to register treaties and international agreements with the Secretariat of the United Nations, and the Secretariat is mandated to publish registered treaties or international agreements." (U.S. State Department Treaty Affairs) However it is interesting that we answer to the organization just like every member country in the world, all 193 of them. (United Nations member States - Growth in United Nations membership, 1945-present) The United States is the repository for the original United States Charter: ". . . Article 111 of its charter indicated that "The present Charter, of which the Chinese, French, Russian, English, and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall remain deposited in the archives of the Government of the United States of America. Duly certified copies thereof shall be transmitted by that Government to the Governments of the other signatory states." (Our Documents - United Nations Charter (1945)) Here is an entry in the Encyclopedia of the United Nations at Google Books: Military Staff Committee "Article 47 of the UN Charter created the Military Staff Committee to 'advise and assist" the Security Council when it decided to use force under Chapter VII's provisions for the maintenance of peace and security. Clearly meant to provide the United Nations with its own military capability, Article 47 joined Articles 42, 43, 45, and 46 in producing an extraordinary innovation over previous international organizations such as the League of Nations. The Military Staff Committee provisions also were a realization of the wartime allies' expectation that the great powers would have the responsibility and authority to act militarily through UN machinery to preserve peace in the postwar period. The drafters of the Charter also contemplated in Article 26 the committee playing a role in the development of UN Disarmament programs. Yet, despite the intentions of the founders in 1945, the Military Staff Committee quickly fell into disuse, largely ignored after 1946." (Encyclopedia of the United Nations - Google Books) An quote from an article in a study made by a couple of people associated with the Department of Economics, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA: "Ten of the fifteen seats on the U.N. Security Council are held by rotating members serving two-year terms. We find that a country’s U.S. aid increases by 59 percent and its U.N. aid by 8 percent when it rotates onto the council. This effect increases during years in which key diplomatic events take place (when members’ votes should be especially valuable) and the timing of the effect closely tracks a country’s election to, and exit from, the council. Finally, the U.N. results appear to be driven by UNICEF, an organization over which the United States has historically exerted great control." (How Much Is a Seat on the Security Council Worth Foreign Aid and Bribery at the United Nations (PDF)) I think what John is saying in Rev. 17:12 is that they are given the power to sway events through the International body to their advantage. Former secretary general, Boutros Boutros Ghali in an interview by Francesca de Châtel - The Guardian (UK), March 17, 2003: "Multilateralism and unilateralism are just methods for the United States: they use them a la carte, as it suits them. The United Nations is just an instrument at the service of American policy. They will use it when they need to, through a multilateral approach and if they don't need it, they will act outside the framework of the United Nations. Of course with a military budget that is equivalent to that of all the permanent members of the security council together, they can afford to." ('The United Nations is just an instrument at the service of American policy' | World news | theguardian.com) Boutros Boutros-Ghali (Egypt) was office from 1992-1996. Kofi Annan was in office (1997-2006) when U.S. President George W. Bush invaded Iraq. A thought: "The 8 years of the Clinton administration coincided with turbulent changes in UN peacekeeping. The United States influenced many of these developments, and the provision or withholding of U.S. resources and political often influenced the UN's actions on a particular issue. Throughout this time period the administration served both as an ardent proponent of UN peacekeeping and one of the fiercest advocates for peacekeeping reform." (U.S. State Department - 06. United Nations) A video, released as a PBS program, that I located (tripped into) talks briefly about the relationship between the U.S.A. and the U.N. Watch Kofi Annan: Center of the Storm (2003) Online for Free - Viooz.

Do not mind at all. It is interesting I have dedicated nearly all of my free time during the last ten years to applying prophecy to history. I am wondering why anyone feels a need to venture out of the Bible and Book of Mormon? Scripture, with all its puzzling prospects, really is a story that we need to put together. G_d did not provide prophecy (as with the rest of scripture) for us to neglect. It is all written to our benefit in the books that we refer to has being the word of G_d. To organize the information and bring it into understanding is where the difficulty lies. All of us have our own thoughts and use many different methods by which we think will bring an answer to the mystery of the scriptural puzzle. However, scripture gives a complete story to bring in and to pull pieces together. The story in prophecy (Bible and Book of Mormon) and the history of men, when brought together, run hand in hand. There is a flow of time and information about events and characters. It comes together with obvious completion as one realizes the answers in history to the questions that are posed by the story in prophecy. Research must flow. It has it moments. However, in the end the problems must all run together with the answers in prophecy. We need a corner piece for the puzzle to be put together. Understanding what that corner piece in scripture is takes and observation of the world a round us. The beginning is not a haphazard piece of time or event in history. It must have significance and be relevant to the story which is in prophecy before being researched. I would not find something without knowing or understanding what I am looking for or how to make application of it. If you read the previous post on this thread you will note that a of piece the puzzle, as I understand it, starts with Macedonia (the ram Dan. 8:3-7). Look at recent history and see if that prophecy can be connected to characters between 1946 and 2001: The were seven Secretary-Generals of the United Nations between Feb. 2, 1946 and Dec. 31, 2006. The were ten United States Presidents between April 12, 1945 and January 20, 2001. Note that these individuals served in office during the same time period. This is required by John in Rev. 17:12. when the ten horns receive power from the seven heads during the same period of time. What is interesting is the ram (Macedonia) in Daniel connects with the seventeen people listed above. There is no interruption in the story between their different time periods when following prophecy as written in the Bible and Book of Mormon. The ideas you present are interesting. I am not sure how to apply them to the story in scripture. Maybe more explanation would be of use?

And I definitely agree that Satan as neither been bound nor released from that binding that is spoken of by John in Rev. 20:1-3. There is a story that is always overlooked that sits in Revelation chapter 12: 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth . . . (Rev. 12:3-4) (Italics mine) Then look at Rev. 13:1: 1 AND I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy (Rev. 13:1) (Italics mine) Rev. chapter 13 is the story about what happens after the great red dragon is cast to the earth. The time period in which Satan (Rev. 12:9) is cast to the earth in the story written by John in the Book of Revelation must be associated with the seven head and ten horns. Revelation chapter 17 informs us this fact: 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the [seven heads of the] beast. (Rev. 17:12). The beast is an abstract that can only be identified through observation. It is not a physical entity. We know this because John describes it attributes in Rev. 13:2 and tells us that the [great red] dragon gives "him his power, and his seat, and great authority." There is no person that can be made in the image of G_d and have the appearance that John describes in Rev. 13:2. Nor can it be a political entity, since John has give to two sets of people who hold authority in two different ruling bodies. Note that the seven heads receive their crowns in Rev. 12:3. At the time of the rebellion in heaven. Then what we see is the ten horns receive their crowns after they are upon the earth (Rev. 13:1). The seven heads and ten horns are not mutually joined together in Rev. 17:12 in authority either. But the ten horns "receive power as kings" with the seven heads. They are two different bodies with something (authority) in common during the same time period. And during this time period Satan has great influence. The Influence that Satan has during the time of the seven heads and ten horns is just prior to the beginning of his being bound as spoken of in Rev. 20:1-3. Thank you for letting me know this. I started reading the Book of Enoch last night. I found in the writings that are third party narratives. What is your thought on these. Do you think that the third party narratives keep with the story line? I find at times they have not done so in the Bible.

I agree that the millennium has passed beyond the 6,000 years of Adam. In nearly every way. If taken as an even thousand year date 4001-3001-2001-1001-1-1001-2001 Christ being at 1 and our day being at 2001. We are now beyond that date. However, as you have posted: That misunderstanding extends to the events that surround the beginning of the seventh millennium. The seventh millennium, from my understanding, started as it was foretold in prophecy, and with the events that should have played out. We have been watching the fulfillment of prophecy in real time. Many things have occurred during last thirteen years that the prophets have foretold. I can only "see" before this moment and at the moment in which we are currently at, with scriptures telling the story. Prophecy looks forward (as well as backward), so there are somethings that can be determined in the near future. However, prophecy does not give enough detail to get pointed about anything. I am disappointed that things are not moving much faster then they are. We went into really slow period for six years, it has now picked up the pace. I am looking forward to the next year to two years (I hoping no longer then a year and a half) for current processes to come together. None of what is going on currently is being valued in the same way that it has been in prophecy. I am not going to ask anyone to believe anything that I could explain about my understanding about the subject of prophecy. Time will play story out for better or worst (I will need to pick up a copy of the Book of Enoch and read it. It has not been on my study list. It maybe an interesting read. I have been busy with the Bible and Book of Mormon. - I will pickup a copy of the Book of Enoch in the next couple of days. Found a copy "The Book of Enoch" at Project Gutenberg, one of my favorite achives.)

Good question. Simple answer: the partaking of the fruit would be the beginning as I understand it. As far as calendars go. One does research base on standards. If one does not establish a standard for the time frame one cannot find anything. The standard calendar that is most useful is by following the story in history that is told in prophecy by Nephi in his vision, as recorded in 1 Nephi 11-14. You can debate that he does not use a calendar. However, the events that we read about in his vision can be applied to a calendar from our vantage point.

I do not need an exact date. An understanding of prophecy does not require it. It is necessary to know the the birth of Jesus was four millennium after Adam. It is necessary to know that the birth and death of Jesus has occurred. These things are necessary because they are a part of the prophetic story. It brings us to the two millenniums after Jesus which our time, the being of the seventh millennium. The life of Jesus is the beginning of the fulfillment of the covenants made to father Abraham. These need to be better understood as well. Prophecy is about the events that point to the last days, they point to our day. I do not know why we try to apply some other time periods on the story that is in prophecy.

There is nothing in this thread to suggest that someone is seeking for a "sign." If fact I use a short phrase often that look something like this: "pointing to our time/day." How does one seek a sign when one understands that the prophecies point in a direction of travel? Pointing and seeking are two very different actions.

I am not so sure that the birth of Jesus is at 1 A.D. However the calendar that we use and apply to our everyday use is very correct in that the beginning of the fourth millennium from Adam and the beginning of the seventh millennium from Adam are completely compatible with the history that is told in the events relating to prophecy through the Bible and Book of Mormon. It is necessary to have the pieces of the puzzle of the story in prophecy fit into and tell the big picture. The time periods and events must all align. Otherwise the story makes no sense.

Seeking is a necessary part of the gospel: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you (Matt. 6:16) However, it is not the only part of the gospel. We cannot do anything to get to heaven of our self. Not one thing. We cannot be (to) spiritual. We cannot work our way to heaven. We simply do not understand how to go about getting to heaven. So God the Father provides for us that which we cannot do our self: 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37) And who has the Father given unto Jesus: 46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:46). (italics mine) There nothing you and me or anyone else can do that will get us to heaven. We must work out what we have in scripture to be worthy for the Father to draw us. However, we must also understand those things written in scripture to work them out. Seeking an understanding of those things in scripture while we on earth. And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved? (Mosiah 16:2) What are ours sins? The way to know is to read the scripture. Is this what you refer to as seeking? Seeking knowledge? Looking to understand what sins are and should be repent of. The scriptures are whole compilation, not a pick this or that story. I can tell you what "recognizing" is based on this thread. However, it apparently is not what your looking for. I have given several solutions and some very direct pieces of information on this thread as well. So I am not sure what "recognizing" is as you want to define it to be relating to this thread. It is interesting that even Jesus while visiting with the Nephites in the promised land refers to Isaiah: 16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded me—that I should give unto this people this land for their inheritance. 17 And then the words of the prophet Isaiah shall be fulfilled, which say: 18 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing, for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion. (3 Nephi 16:16-18) Here he set an example as how scripture is important to the understanding of future events. So an explanation of what you are referring to would be interesting.

13 Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief. 14 And now, when I, Nephi, had heard these words, I remembered the words of the Lord which he spake unto me in the wilderness, saying that: Inasmuch as thy seed shall keep my commandments, they shall prosper in the land of promise. 15 Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law. 16 And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass. 17 And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments. (1 Ne. 4:5) Faith is not found in isolation from the word of G_d.

According to https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-16?lang=eng President Brigham Young’s whole soul was dedicated to establishing Zion. He oversaw the gathering of nearly one hundred thousand Latter-day Saints to the valleys of the Rocky Mountains and colonized some four hundred cities and towns. However, Joseph Smith, Jr. had a different idea of Zion: In History of the Church, Joseph Smith observed that Zion “was the most important temporal object in view” of the early Latter-day Saints (History of the Church 1:207; hereafter HC). The founding of this millennial urban society was so important for the early Church that thousands of converts from several different countries sacrificed their homes, careers, families, native lands, comfort, health, and even their lives to realize Joseph Smith’s vision of an earthly kingdom that was, like Enoch’s primordial City of Zion, worthy to become God’s “abode forever” (Moses 7:21). So determined was this modern prophet to replicate on earth the spatial and social orders of heaven that when persecution and dissension began to frustrate Zion’s gathering, he exclaimed, “Unless Zion is built our hopes perish, our expectations fail, our prospects are blasted, our salvation withers, and God will come and smite the whole earth with a curse” (HC 2:517). https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/joseph-smith-prophet-man/15-joseph-smith%E2%80%99s-concept-city-zion Joseph we know was not able to build the Zion of his Time. Brigham Young picked it up Zion as motivation for the Saints to relocate in the West (In my view). Which Zion is the true Zion? Under L.D.S. doctrine, Joseph Smith, Jr.'s So why make statements that are generalized to the location of Zion: Our present gathering is primarily spiritual, not geographic. Christ declared that in the latter-days He would "establish [His] church," "establish [His] people," and "establish ... among them [His] Zion" (3 Nephi 21:22; 3 Nephi 20:21; 3 Nephi 21:1). As He establishes His Church in our day, people can be taught the gospel and be "brought to the knowledge of the Lord their God" (3 Nephi 20:13) without leaving their homes. In contrast to the pronouncements during the early days of the restored Church, our leaders have decreed that now the gathering should take place within each land and among every tongue. Our need to be physically near large numbers of Saints is less than it was a century ago because Church magazines and satellite transmissions bridge distance and time, creating a sense of oneness throughout the entire Church. All have access to the same keys, ordinances, doctrine, and spiritual gifts (Callister, Douglas L., "Book of Mormon Principles: The Gathering of the Lord’s Faithful," Ensign, Oct 2004, 58-59.). Or maybe this is closer to the mark: I want to speak more particularly this morning about this one law—the law of consecration. It is that one’s time, talents, strength, property, and money are given up to the Lord for the express purpose of building up the kingdom of God and establishing Zion on the earth. Or, as we read in Doctrine and Covenants 105:5, “Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom.” (Elder Benson - Speeches) The Elder Benson's is the one I think applies best to current Church teachings, though Elder Callisters statement is being applied. It does not make sense to gather people to a place to does not exist, yet. They can prepare to go some place that does not exist. That is why Joseph Smith's Zion is the correct location, Elder Callisters statement is being applied and Elder Benson's is the ideal. Just my thoughts on the subject. (Here is of Elder Callisters article on the internet: https://www.lds.org/ensign/print/2004/10/book-of-mormon-principles-the-gathering-of-the-lords-faithful?lang=eng&clang=eng)

I make a statement in a previous post on this thread that simply says: Is the LDS Church an inspire Church? I hope so. And with that I agree with Traveler: I looked up the churches idea of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. It is an interesting read. You will note that the page at lds.org does not state the there is an association to the establishment of Zion with second coming Jesus Christ. In fact it does not say anything about Zion. It simply points to more reading material. Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Why did G_d leave us a written history in the form of prophecy? Was it because it was to be negated by religious men and women? Or is it to be understood and meaningful to the over all picture that G_d has for us here upon the earth? What say ye? Ignore G_ds word to man or be obedient and learn the word that G_d has given you to learn for his purposes? Make note that I do not give a time, date for anything that is related to the second coming of Jesus, you are claiming that I have have not been reading my post.

I do not claim to know the time of Jesus second coming. I do wish to point out that prophecy, as it is written, points to our time. Prophecy that points to our time is a story of the Gentile nations with a common time frame as told in 1 Nephi chapter 11 through 14. The Bible prophecy points to our day with commonality of things that occur in Nephi's vision in 1 Nephi. Are we not told that: Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them . . . (D&C 93:31). . . . I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious . . . (1 Ne. 13:34) What is it that I am not explaining plainly? Do you see a problem with following the timeline that Nephi has set forth in his vision and applying it to Biblical prophecy? The Book of Mormon is correct, is it not? Nephi gives a great timeline that, if followed, leads right in to John's vision written in the Book of Revelation. Prophets in the Bible are consistent with their prophecies leading to our time in that they follow Nephi's timeline that leads right into John's vision as well. In fact, Daniel and John run parallel for much of their prophecies. Without the Book of Mormon it would be impossible to understand the prophecies of the Bible. They could not be brought together in a meaningful manner. It may take a moment to get to this explanation while interacting with people on a thread. However, the thread moves in the direction to do this. You might read last post that I made. It was being written while you were posting your first response. You'll find that I have explained this to some extent. If you read my post you will find that I am using prophecy from the Bible and Book of Mormon. I am not predicting anything. I refuse to go there. I do not know the future. The written prophecy is what it is and I cannot change it nor see beyond it or guess the missing details. The events spoken of in prophecy are not given with great deal. I will not fill in the gaps. I do not know how they are to come together. They simply have an order in which they occur. To understand the prophecy one only needs to apply prophecy to history, watch while the events take place. The past prophecies are fulfilled. Current prophecy is being fulfilled. Both point to future prophecy that tells a story that points to events that are yet to occur, they are written for us to understand. This is the nature of prophecy. To say that "no one knows the time" is a complete dismissal of prophecy from both Bible and Book of Mormon. Why bother with religion at all if you do not believe that the story as told in prophecy does not point to our day (or any given day) as if it is unknown information. Counter productive. Prophecy is useful to the understanding of all men/women who wish to understand rather then shut it off as having no value. And, No, prophecy, as written, does not provide a month, day, year for the second coming of Jesus Christ. The prophecies simply point to events that occur leading up to the end of the earth as we understand it (only as John saw it). The second coming of Jesus Christ is simply somewhere among the last day events and has been passed by in the story. No guess as to when his second coming is. If you are trying to associate the second coming of Jesus Christ with establishment Zion. You will not find me doing that and I cannot tell anyone that Jesus Christ second coming is when Zion is established. Everyone seems to have their own opinion about what happens when Jesus Christ comes. I cannot tell anyone when the second coming of Jesus Christ is going to be. Prophecy is silent. I will not make up that story.

Hmmm . . . . Was this assumed or did you read it in my post somewhere?

We do not need to pinpoint a date. We do need to know that Jesus was born four millennium after Adam. As I mentioned in the previous post to Traveler, the prophecies are about events in Gentile history. There by we know that we are two millennium from Jesus and at the beginning of seventh millennium from Adam. The only prophet to mention the birth of Jesus in association with the Gentiles is Nephi (1 Ne. 1-36). And even at that it is mentioned in a way that leads to the house of Israel, in the descendants of Manasseh (the Nephites), receiving a visit from Jesus. From Jesus visiting the Nephites, to the written history of the Nephites being brought forth to the Gentiles on the promised land (the Book of Mormon). Note that Nephi uses the European Gentiles to tell the story. Note also the Nephi's prophecy relating to the Gentiles starts about the time of the beginning of what I refer to as the Christian Roman Church (1 Ne. 13:1-10). The birth of Jesus occurs during the time period of the Roman Empire. This is where Daniel and Nephi cross paths. Daniel story, as he relates it, traverses through the expanding of the Roman Empire (after the defeat of Macedonia in 168 BC), then to the beginning of, what I refer to as, the Christian Roman Empire and beyond. Daniel earliest expanding empire is in chapter eight starting with the Macedonian Empire (the ram). He then moves on to the Roman Empire (the he goat). Look on a map of Europe, you can see were Roman is in relationship to Macedonia. Note both are Gentile nations. Macedonia is the first expanding empire in Europe, under Philip II (359 - 336 BC) and Alexander III "the Great" (336-323 BC) Now with a calendar we can bring these events together and we can start moving forward in time. Will following the prophetic trail pointing us to our time provide a date that will tell us the date of Jesus second coming? No. However, it will provide a time line in which we be able to understand the events that occur to nearly the time frame of that moment. Isaiah tells of the smoke from the north (Isa. 14:31). Ezekiel talks about a cloud from the north (Ezek. 38:15-16). Both are the same event. Knowing how Ezekiel chapter 38 fits in will help understanding as well. Following the story in Gentile history as Nephi has started it for us we will be able to put together the story so that we will know what Isaiah and Ezekiel are talking about. The event spoken of by Isaiah (Isa. 14:31) and Ezekiel (Ezek. 38:15-16) will provide an approximate time period in relationship to the gathering to Zion. That is why the verse is so important, that is why calendars and dates are so important. (This is the subject of another thread: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/55743-event-establishing-zion.html)

Interesting thing about the seven seals being one for a thousand years is that everybody I have talked knows nothing about the events. Nor have they any idea how to make application of the seals. Point of reference: We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence (D&C 77:6). It would seem that if somebody that had information that there are seven seals representing one for each of thousand years of earth temporal existence, one would be willing to provide the answers to the following question: "What event is represented in the opening of each of these seals?" Joseph Smith, Jr. may or may not have been asked or had to answer that question. Unless I simply have not come across the solution he provides in my studies. I, nor anybody I have spoken to about this, have never seen a solution to the difficulty that D&C 77:6 poses. The purpose of the seven seals are within reach for all of us to seek out an understanding as to what they mean. The Book of Revelation (5:1) and the story told by Nephi in first Nephi chapters 11-14 (1 Ne. 14:8) tell us what the seals represent.

William Miller's story is interesting, one of my favorites. It is not so much the calendar, but the people to whom it is applied. The prophecy that point us to the last days are all about the Gentile nations, starting with Macedonia during the reign of Philip II of Macedon (b. 382– d. 336 BC). The prophecies then move forward in time until the present moment and beyond. The calendar that the Gentiles apply to their own history is the calendar that best fits the story. Its application to Gentile history gives order and understanding to the events that occurred in relationship to other events in Gentile history. Dating an event several years off one way or the other wont change the fact of the event. However, changing a timeline in which the events occurred or the relationship of the events to each other will. Not knowing the event or how the event is applied to the over all story changes the understanding. Even if somebody is using a calendar. Bringing the story together is about bring the entities that make up the story together. However, this is usually a matter of having a starting point then working from there. The Gregorian calendar is applicable for the purpose of understanding how to place the events in prophecy to the events in Gentile history. Prophecy is better understood if one applies prophecy to history rather then history to prophecy. Using a meaningful calendar to organize the events is useful. I took a moment to refresh my memory about the library of Alexandria. Thank you for the thought that gave me that opportunity. Who Destroyed Alexandria's Famous Library? : Media History Project : U of M This is a long story outside of this thread. We could take it to another thread? Or expand this one?

Hmmm ... The Jewish (Hebrew) calendar is hard to follow when the prophecies are about Gentile kongdoms. The standard calendar that the Gentiles use is the calendar in which the Gentiles can understand the times and the seasons by. Trying to change dates by using another calendar will not change the standard calendar that the Gentiles use. We are who we are in the time period in which we live. Prepare for (the next moment) tomorrow for we do not see what is coming. So how to prepare? We think we understand. Let us pray and hope we understand correctly.

I agree. However, my experience with the story tells of last day events that have been going on since just after WWII that continue to follow through to this day and beyond. You can watch the current events on your local TV News programming. They do not happen fast, it takes time. We have two of three different things happening in parallel at the moment. The third will run parallel with the other two soon. It has been an eventful summer. I do not look forward to the next main event. And yet I do look forward to it. As does everyone else. Simply need to follow the correct story.