Speakzeasy

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The calendar does not and can not rewrite history. It is a means to understand an order and relationship between two different moments in time. The clock serves the same purpose. Time is relative and yet has meaning. We put to much meaning into time (specially time by the clock). You can apply any calendar you want, but it must be able to be applied to the whole story. Picking and choosing what period the events in prophecy take place without understanding how the story goes together is not a fruitful way to bring about an understanding of the story leading from the past to the present. Redefining the past by present understanding is a rewrite by definition. It is a sad way to learn. We will probably never know what day Jesus was born. However, we are human and we have put things in place so that we can understand the world around us. The calendar is one tool that we can use to make an application of toward understanding. My understanding of the world is from my present moment, as is everyone else's during their present day. We want to rewrite everyone else history that came before us. We are an arrogant people, after all we know and understand better then those who came before us. It is sad that we think so little of our ancestors.

Isaiah and other prophets will talk about things going on during their own time period and then jump that moment forward to the last days. Isaiah does this with the founding of Zion statement in Isa. 14:31-32. Another example of this is in Isaiah 5:26-30. He does the same thing with the story presented there. The 'ensign' mentioned in verse 26 is the Zion in Isa. 14:32. Another good example is Jeremiah chapters 50 and 51. If you were to read those chapters you should see that the events he associates with Babylon are applied to a future date. That is our future (near present) time period. Only Jeremiah (as does Isaiah and others) uses his understanding to tell the story from his day and jumps forward to our day. Last day prophecy is presented this way. When a vision was given to prophets, they simply recorded to the best of their understanding. It is interesting how much methodology they have in common between them. You might find the cross reference (as examples) between Jeremiah 51:8 and Revelation 18:9, Jeremiah 51:13 and Revelation 17:1 of interest. Johns vision is about our time period. John came along well after the Babylon of Jeremiah's time.

Hmm . . . . . Knowing this, what is the event that Isaiah (Isa. 14:31-32) talks about. What is it about details that we seem to be over looking that we give our approval of without question. Isaiah gives the information about the event associated with the establishment of Zion in our day. It seems that we talk about things in a manner that displays a good deal of knowledge about what we believe is suppose to happen related to the establish of Zion. Why are not we noticing the details that are in front of us? Why as an inspired latter-day church do we not know what this event is? As you have pointed out events that we think are to occur with the establishment of Zion. Isaiah is very direct with the subject. What is missing?

The part of the story that is always misunderstood is that it is Gods story to man not mans story to man. The Gregorian calendar in fact is most correct to the understanding the time period that the prophecies are fulfilled in. Human opinion is not of value in the story. The story was written before the foundation of the world. Time as we understand it did not apply then. Time as it applies to the events related to those in prophecy are correctly understood with the Gregorian calendar. If we attempt to apply some other calendar we miss the story. Research requires three things to be able to make an identity: 1. Time frame. 2. Name of character/event. 3. Geographical local The identity of these three items must come together for research to move forward. I can give all three items for nearly all things related to prophecy pointing to our day. The council in heaven was along time ago. How does one apply the clock in that time period to the history of humans? I cannot, it has no application as far as I determine. However, prophecy given to man from God is about human history on this earth, it is not about calendars. However, it must be understood in terms of human history with a calendar that is accurate. The events in prophecy as I have them listed walk hand in hand with Gregorian calendar and human history. All prophecy in the Bible that points to our day runs in a parallel time period and has common events with the vision in 1 Nephi chapter 11 to 14. Now tell me how the vision in 1 Nephi can be understood with out using the Gregorian calendar? Nephi lived long before the Gregorian calendar came into being. Christopher Columbus sailed on his first voyage in 1492? Was the American Revolution from 1775–1783? Remember old style (O.S.) (before the Gregorian calendar) and new style (N.S.) (Gregorian calendar) dates were in use at the time of the Revolution. 1752 was the first year in England to officially begin on 1 January (See: The National Archives | Palaeography tutorial - Quick reference) So which date is correct and why do we except which date? Gregorian calendar noun (Concise Encyclopedia) Solar dating system now in general use. It was proclaimed in 1582 by Pope Gregory XIII as a reform of the Julian calendar. By the Julian reckoning, the solar year comprised 365 days. The addition of a “leap day” every four years was intended to maintain correspondence between the calendar and the seasons; however, a slight inaccuracy in the measurement of the solar year caused the calendar dates of the seasons to regress almost one day per century. By Pope Gregory's time, the Julian calendar was 10 days out of sync with the seasons; in 1582, to bring the vernal equinox (and thus Easter) back to its proper date, 10 days were dropped (October 5 became October 15). Most of Catholic Europe soon adopted the new calendar; Great Britain and its colonies (1752) and Russia (1918) followed much later. The Gregorian calendar differs from the Julian only in that no century year is a leap year unless it is exactly divisible by 400 (e.g., 1600, 2000). A further refinement, the designation of years evenly divisible by 4,000 as common (not leap) years, will keep the calendar accurate to within one day in 20,000 years. (Gregorian calendar - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary) A six year discrepancy and your going to complain because some somebody wants to rewrite history to discredit it? Revisionist history can be fatal to the truth and to the understanding.

Ok. Here is a choronicle ordered understanding of Prophecy. This is from the earliest mentioned occurrence until the most recent: First two Kings of Macedonia 359-323 B.C.First King of Greece 198-196 (This is nested)Last Two Kings of Macedonia 221-168Birth of & life of Jesus Christ 1-33 A.D.?Gospel of Jesus Christ given to the Nephites 33-34?Last Roman Emperor 284-305Three Roman Emperors signing letters of Toleration 311 & 313The Nephites reject the gospel of Jesus Christ 400Four dominate Monarchs 1509-1649Discovery of the new World 1492Colonization of the promised land 1620-1642The United States of America 1783-1946The Gentiles receive the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ 1830 (via The Book of Mormon)The United Nations 1946-2001The first year of the Seventh Millennium from Adam 2001Seventh King & little Horn 2002-2004Land brought back by the sword 2007-2008When Zion is established the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ will be taken from the Gentiles and given to the house of Israel. The house of Israel will be gathered to the Kingdom of God.The order is with dates from the Gregorian calendar. Other events fall into these time periods and are consistent across the board with the prophecies pointing to our day. These events (that have been generalized) are an understanding of the prophecies directly out of the Bible and Book of Mormon. Why is that the prophecies from these books are confusing? Why do we use generalities to what these events and time periods are in prophecy? If you disagree with the above events and time periods can you do better? Can you put together an order of the events in prophecy from the Bible and Book of Mormon from your own understanding without pointing to third party for information? Why are we waiting for a millennium that is already here? (See: Spring Phenomena 25 BCE to 38 CE — Naval Oceanography Portal for BCE transition to CE dates. 1 BCE moves into 1 CE without a zero date.)

Thank you for reading the post and the link. What you did not go into is how general a statement it is and how misunderstood prophecy must be. All that ink writing prophecy applied to Gods word to man and we cannot event put together the beginning of a thousand year time period? Why is it that we do not understand prophecy to understand about when the second coming is? Other then the general statements that we apply to the event. Prophecy is very clear that there is a time appointed for these things to happen.

I do not think we can pin point a date. However, a thousand span and generalities as to about when shows us lacking something in the information about the event.

I have been looking into the second coming of the Lord. Here is a short description: A millennium is a period of 1,000 years. When we speak of “the Millennium,” we refer to the 1,000 years following the Savior's Second Coming (see Revelation 20:4; D&C 29:11). During the Millennium, “Christ will reign personally upon the earth” (Articles of Faith 1:10). (See: Millennium) Whose calendar do we use? How do we apply the time frame for the start of the said Millennium. 87 years from now we'll look back and wonder. By our (Gregorian) calendar Adam was four thousand years before Jesus. We are now two thousand years past Jesus, plus 12. The millennium we are now in started in the year 2001 (count starts at the number one). The our current calendar millennium ends in 87 years (2101 is the next even start of a calendar millennium, 2101-3100). The Hebrew calendar would have been the 6th of Tevet, 5761 on January 1, 2001. That is 239 years difference in between the dates (6000-5761). We are waiting 239 years on the Hebrew calendar. So what is the beginning of the next millennium? What is wrong with the story? Why do we think that the Savior's Second Coming is at the beginning of a calendar millennium?

What seemly obvious observations? You over look the great value of the writings in Isaiah that apply to our day. Isaiah is rich in information about events that have and will occur during our modern day. His writings provide an asset in the study and understanding of events/people that are written about by other prophets. I cannot express how invaluable his writing are to my own understanding of the prophecies leading us into the current events that bring about the establishment Zion (Physical). I feel bad that his (and others Biblical and Book of Mormon prophets) usefulness in the study in prophecy is so undermined by scholars so as not to understand how to apply prophetic writing to history. It is truly sad. They need to learn how to apply prophecy to history, not history to prophesy. P.S. I don't completely disagree with you about the writings of Isaiah.

Just_A_Guy you know how to make me smile:). You're going make think and/or explain myself, my favorite things. I find I learn from these things. This would be the New Jerusalem of Ether 13:6: 6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type (Ether 13:6-8) It appears that Ether has two different "New Jerusalems" spoken of: 1. One from heaven in Ether 13:3, 9-10. 2. One built here upon the promised land in Ether 13:6-8. There is mention of the old Jerusalem in Ether 13:11. I do understand somewhat why Moroni was forbidden to write more more on the topic. (Ether 13:13) The New Jerusalem built upon the promised land is the topic that I an trying identify the event with. And yes it is yet future and yes Isaiah know what he was talking about. 27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? 29 ¶ Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. 30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant. 31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. 32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. (Isa. 14:27, 29-32) Isaiah saw the establishment Zion (Physical) and the physical act of gathering the righteous of the house of Israel as an act of mercy on Gods part. The event that Isaiah talks about that occurs with the smoke from the north relating Palestine just prior to or about the same time that Zion is founded falls in line with prophecies from Ezekiel, Joel and John (the Book of Revelation). Isaiah's Palestine is the modern day State of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The region of Lebanon, Syria, Israel, West Bank and Gaza Strip are part of the eastern Mediterranean referred to as the Levant. Palestine was part of the Ottman Empire until the British conquered the area in 1917, toward the end of World War I. This prophecy in Isaiah 14:31-32 is about our time period. The question still remains what was the event? Joseph Smith attempted to establish Zion in Missouri. What was and when did the smoke from the north of Palestine dissolve it for the purpose of establishing Zion? Joseph must have left some record of this event to or at least in part justify the attempt to founding Zion in Missouri.

Would this not negate Josephs idea of Zion being in "the land Missouri" which is "appointed and consecrated for the gathering of the saints" (D&C 57:1)? If in fact Joseph established Zion, what the event that is spoken of by Isaiah? Joel and Ezekiel talk about this same event. The smoke from the north.

This means that the other prophets that refer to the same events are talking about the subject as you present the idea about Isaiah. And we need to ignore the firm statement by Jesus himself in 3 Nephi: 1 AND now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah. (3 Ne. 32:1) Dismissing and twisting scripture does not provide an understanding of them.

So, my question can be answered. What is the event that is being referred when Isaiah states the "for there shall come from the north a smoke." That event must take place and is referenced to several times throughout scripture as being associated with establishment Zion. Basically, I would like to know what that event is. You say that Zion is established. What can you tell me about that event that Isaiah tells us occurs prior or about the time of the founding Zion? The "restoration" of the Gospel you refer to is what the Book of Mormon states as being the fullness of the gospel being forth to the Gentiles. 13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed— (1 Ne. 15:13) "through" in the above verse means 'by means of; by the agency of; noting instrumentality' "from" in the above is 'used to show that somebody/something is separated or removed' There is nothing that suggest that the Book of Mormon being brought to the Gentiles is in anyway the establishment of Zion. Joseph Smith attempted to establish Zion after the Book of Mormon was published starting July 20, 1831 (D&C 57). The "restored" gospel was not the founding or expansion of Zion.

Here is the question: What event will occur previous to the establishment of Zion? It is not as if there is no interested in the subject. And it isn't as though Joseph Smith did not attempt to establish Zion himself. So why is we are not asking the questions about how Zion is going to be established. I know that there is a group of LDS members that think of going to Zion as being something the Prophet is going to inform us of some day. In fact the attitude of LDS Members about the subject reminds allot like the attitude of Christians whom think that there will be a "rapture" (John Darby) that will suddenly take a group of people to heaven at any moment. Event may be different. Attitude basically the same. So what happens if we turn to scripture? So I am hoping to find out if this question can be answered: In Isaiah 14:31-32 tells about an event that happens just prior or about the same time that Zion is founded. 31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. 32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. (Isa. 14:31-32) Anyone know what the smoke from the north is reference to? It would seem that Joseph should have had an answer to this question. As the prophecy would have needed to be fulfilled at the time he attempted to found Zion. He did not complete the building of Zion. Was this prophecy fulfilled in Joseph Smith's day? If so what was it, why is that Zion as not been established? If the prophecy in Isaiah 14:31-32 has not been fulfilled what do we know about its being fulfilled. The cross reference at the bottom of page in the LDS published Bible have no information on this subject. The references used do not apply to this subject. I found that to be sad.

That I can appreciate. If you are able to finish your book, I would like read it. Our time frame is short. The next event that effectively fulfills one (the second of two) of the covenants in, what we call, the last days is upon us. It does not look pretty for anyone. God is truly an awesome God and he is about to bring the world to its economic knees. I am watching the economies the world be set up for the next event. There are two (three) other things that I am watching. Namely the Israel, Palestinian peace talks and Arab Peace Initiative (Ezekiel 38:11 "dwell safely" meaning 'to be in agreement'). The Iranian Nuclear Talks (Ezekiel 38:11 "at rest" meaning 'national quiet'). Egypt, Syria are peripheral subjects of interest (not part of Ezekiel's prophecy in chapter 38 or any prophecy). The economies the world are inline with Revelation chapter 18. It is the event after the peace arrangement between the Israeli's and Arabs that I am looking forward to. Many reasons are related to my eagerness for this event to happen. As an edit to the original post and for completeness of what is being watched in Ezekiel chapter 38: Ezekiel 38:8-9 are speaking about Iraq. The end of verse 8 states that they will dwell safely. I'm am watching for the Shia, Kurds and Sunni to come together and be in agreement within the Government of Iraq. The things listed in these two paragraphs should occur before the the next event which is one of the covenants to the remnant of Israel.[end edit] There much more to the story then the list above. I also have personal interest in the events that have happen, are happening and about to happen. There is no way to explain everything. Though given time I could relate more. A true interpretation of Prophecy, in my point of view, is one that points to history in the past and applies prophecy to those events, as understood in prophecy not history, bring them into the present on the same timeline and points to the future with complete unbroken chronological order. The characters of the prophecies must be identified with consistency of the time periods and empires taken into account. It must be consistent with an understanding of the Bible and Book of Mormon prophecies. I do not know how closely we are aligned in understanding prophecy. It could be very interesting to hear further about where your understanding on the subject has taken you. I will admit up front that my understanding of prophecy began with information related to our present day. So, fundamentally I started my research from the present, backwards and then forward. Outside of the Bible and Book of Mormon I used no third party religious references. The Bible and Book of Mormon stand on there own merit in telling the story of prophecy. I had no reason to turn to any other (third party) source to follow the scriptural path of history as told in both books. My understanding has purpose and meaning beyond my reach of influence. It will bring me to my purpose in life, which is also beyond my reach of influence, nor do I desire to act contrary. I look forward to the moment at hand. I know that all the characters that are involved in the last day prophecy are alive. I understand who both people are that we call anti-Christ. I understand a little bit about the establishment of Zion. Time is short.

Yes, maybe. I will not give up my testimony of the Book of Mormon and that it has a place in relationship to the covenants made to father Abraham and the house of Israel. However, the generalities that we are told about prophecy is just that, generalities. The post you provided is a good example of how we see prophecy in generalities. (You provide specifics in a general way. How can the story you present be applied to prophecy in the Bible and Book of Mormon? Giving a detailed chronology from the beginning starting with the Book of Daniel.) In part you are saying - What do we need to know the details for? I agree. If we are not into learning the word of God then you or myself, nor anyone else have no need to understand the information in any specific detail. What for, God provided it to us for no reason. Without purpose. Sounds like an intelligent God to me. After all he, of all people, knows that we can return to him with partial information. We can be casual about our understanding and our seeking and finding out about God words to us. I have noticed that people will attempt to understand the story in prophecy by coming up with a grouping of what they (think) believe are possible answers to the information provided in prophecy out of frustration or their own reasoning. Not out of knowledge or understanding. Those of us who leave an understanding of prophecy to other people are always referring back to those people. I am not sure why we do not turn to God who is the source of the information he provides. All of us have access to the Bible and Book of Mormon. The problem with not knowing is that in tends to provide a lack of understanding. There is a reason and a purpose in knowing the prophecies and the events that are in them and what they represent and how those events come together. The prophecies provide a road map of Gods dealing man. They are not a grouping of thoughts that are randomly put together to fit a story for the convince of mans understanding. They are full of purpose and meaning. My faith is absolute in the understanding that God will fulfill his covenants to the house of Israel. I have a good knowledge of what those covenants are and I am watching with eagerness for their fulfillment. Yes, I am watching their fulfillment. Well, they happen one at a time, so I am watching for the next thing to transpire so the next event (covenant) can be fulfilled. I have watched many events take place that move us closer to the fulfilling of the covenant God made to the remnant of Israel. How can that be? Think about it. I am secure with my relationship with God, my future, and with the direction my life heading. He as helped me understand why things are the way they are. Not mans understanding, but through prophecies and other accumulated knowledge from my lives experiences. My testimony is from God. Not because of religion or what I was told by any man about something that man thought I should believe. My testimony is not of any institution. Nobody has influenced my testimony here upon the earth. The Bible and Book of Mormon are part of the a bigger picture of a story that is beyond me to influence and that bigger story is a part of my testimony. The Bible and Book of Mormon part of the story is the influence they have had on man because of what man believes he understands of their continent (note the Book of Mormon is recent). The story of man starts in what is understood by the members of the L.D.S. Church as the Council in Heaven. Starting from that point everything becomes a part of a greater whole. The social attitudes, the worlds ideas, anything that is imposed on man for the benefit of any group, is just that, to the benefit of the group (reminds me of Amos 3:3). We live in the world. To understand prophecy we must seek that which God has to offer and detach from the world and its societies. We remain very attached to our societies and their wants, desires and beliefs. We believe that as long as we place a value in their understanding of God (even non-believers) that we are secure. I suppose it works for man. Will it work for God? Prophecies will teach many things to man. A greater understanding of the world around us will evolve from understanding prophecy. The story of the history of man shows that men have, for the most part, ignored the continents of scripture. Men have used scripture to their own advantage. There by abusing scripture for mans own purposes. So, if people believe that being a people with spiritual attributes and somehow turn our personal responsibilities over to another person is all we really need to do, then do not let me upset the majority belief. I mean really, I am only one person. I am of no significance to anyone in this world. Why listen to me. One of the scriptures that is quoted often among the L.D.S. membership is Amos 3:7 "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." The Bible and Book of Mormon are written by prophets that are of the house of Israel. The remnant of Israel are the people whom Gods prophecies in the Bible and Book of Mormon are directed at and they are written for their benefit. So why is it that the prophecies from the Bible and Book of Mormon validate one another? The real question is: How is it that the prophecies in the Bible and Book of Mormon validate each other?

So what story is it that you think you understand just fine? If the above quote is understanding? Tell me how negating a subject is understanding and not confusion? You have not got a focus on the subject. You are simply trying to argue about the subject. I think that is counter productive. That shows a lack of knowledge about the information.

Quite frankly, God is about to gather the remnant of Israel. Listen for that still small voice that will call the house of Israel from the time that God establishes Zion. Is that bold statement? Think about it. The time is at hand. Are we prepared? And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: (Isaiah 5:26). The ensign spoken of is Zion. Ensign here means Any signal to assemble or to give notice (Webster's 1828 Dictionary).

Can anyone give time period in which the Gentiles who received the fullness of the Gospel will be adopted into the house of Israel through the tribe of Manasseh? (See 1 Nephi 14:2 and Alma 10:3) It is still future. Somehow, the Gentiles that received the fullness Gospel of Jesus Christ on behalf of the Gentiles believes that they are gathering the house of Israel or "spiritual" house of Israel. But they are not being brought into the house of Israel through the tribe Manasseh. What is wrong with the story? The period for the Gentiles to receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is correct. I will stand by that Joseph Smith, Jr. brought forth the Book of Mormon by inspiration of God. The time period has one more than event that is being missed. You will need to see this for yourselves. I can point the way. However, you must see it for yourselves. When trying to negate the prophecies in scripture we dismiss their purpose. All prophecy belongs to specific events. They move through time - the history of man. And they are given to us with purpose. We must understand that history nor our own ideas, or those of somebody else, cannot be forced on to prophecy and make them apply. Prophecy must be applied to history. Making the story in prophecy more relevant. We cannot negate the stories in prophecy, in anyway, or they will never be understood. They must be applied as they are written. We cannot twist them to mean what we what them to mean. Read the prophecy in the Bible and Book of Mormon. They are written by different people, however, they are applied to the same time period (from the time of Jesus Christ (the Roman Empire) until now, the exception is Dan. 8:3-4, which is one empire earlier). The visions in the Book of Daniel (chapters 2, 7, 9, 8, 11-12) are the same empires (without noted exception) that are given to us in the vision of 1 Nephi in chapters 11-14. The end of the visions in Daniel overlap the second vision in the Book of Revelation (compare Rev. 1:10 and Rev. 4:1-2) and the end of Nephi's vision. The Book Revelation picks up from the end of Nephi's vision starting with chapter 14. Nephi is correct. He did not make a mistake. The Book of Revelation actually starts its story a bit earlier then the end of Nephi's vision. It also has several beginning points in the story starting from chapter four. I know that the Book of Mormon is true through understanding Bible prophecy. Nephite prophecy, without the bible references in the Book of Mormon, is consistent with Bible prophecy. They cover the same time period and the same empires. The events during the time period are a variation of the same story in all the vision in both books (Bible and Book of Mormon). Read them in this way and pray that God will help you understand. Please do not negate the story in prophecy. And please do not think that some how prophecy can be applied to any time that we think appears to have something in common with prophecy, this is called layering. And remember you must apply the prophecies to history, not the other way around. Last, and not least, read the Bible and Book of Mormon prophecies on their own merit. Do not allow any outside influence (except prayer) to be brought in for information to some how "help" understand prophecy in either the Bible or Book of Mormon. The prophecies in both books can stand on their own without any outside help. Prophecy must bring together all the elements of a specific time period or prophecy can not applied. P.S. I'm going to mention that Nephi does cover what we now know as the American Continent and the civilization and population on it, the others do not. However, his does pickup with the same empires that Daniel speaks of in his visions. Nephi does not distinguish between the Christian Roman Empire and the British Empire as Daniel makes them separate. However, if you follow the story it is all there. Simply apply prophecy to history.

Dravin If you negate (make ineffective) the story then you will never understand it.

estradling75 So if the ElectofGod is correct (and I believe is): ElectofGod Then whom do you suppose the represents the house of Israel in this day? My guess is that you want to point at Joseph Smith and repeat his ideas. So how it the Church of Jesus Christ as the means by which the Gentiles receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and still claim to be of the house of Israel? Or rather gathering the house of Israel? The Gentiles and the house of Israel cannot be one and the same. They must be separate. They are even called by separate names. As scriptural reference: take a look at the Book of Mormon claim to whom the Gentiles will be associated with when the house of Israel is gathered: And harden not their hearts against the Lamb of God, they shall be numbered among the seed of thy father; yea, they shall be numbered among the house of Israel; and they shall be a blessed people upon the promised land (1 Nephi 14:2). That is that they will be numbered with tribe of Manasseh. Because Nephi's father, Lehi, is a descendant of Manasseh. And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren (Alma 10:3). So why is that the Gentiles that received the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not being adopted into the tribe of Manasseh? Manasseh is of the house of Israel. To read the Book of Mormon the Gentiles receive an inheritance with the tribe of Manasseh. The house of Israel does not spread the Gospel among the Gentile Nations, the Gentiles do.

Just_A_Guy I agree. There is no reason to believe that people are not put in charge to make decisions and take responsibility for those decisions. And yes, there must be a common subject of agreement between individuals to bring them together. Losing the individual is the sad part of any story. The only truth in life is the relationship between myself and God. When it comes to the day of judgement I will stand before God on my own behalf. No attorney will be present, just me before God. How do I explain to him that I spent my life believing that somebody else had (all) the answers to the questions about the eternal life that he offers? Where is the conviction I should have in my understanding of him as my God and my Savior? If we excuse ourselfs in the idea that others can fill in the gaps of our understanding, do we quit searching? The relationship between God and man is not localized to the individual. As an example Prophecies are of a larger story relating to God dealing with man through the ages. Everyone of us have access to them. Are we responsible to understand the prophecies as individuals. Of course we are given responsiblity to understand them, or they would be given to somebody else. I am responsible to understand as much of the Gospel of Jesus as I can in my life time. I cannot delegate that responsibility to another person. I am accountable to learn and live to best of my understanding of the Gospel in relationship with God, prayerfully through scripture. Not somebody elses understanding. I agree that the Book of Mormon is brought forth by the inspiration of God at the hands Joseph Smith, Jr. However, I am responsible for my understanding (or lack of understanding) of the contents before God. Nobody else is going to step in on my behalf on the day of judgement and say 'I am to blame, not him.' If God does not hold me accountable for those things that I am responsible for why provide Scripture for instruction? Prophecy is a part of the instruction. We as indviduals will be held accountable for not understanding those events as well. They are given to us for a reason. If they were not given to us we could not be held accountable to understand them. When a belief is lost in an organization, is it still a belief in God? Where is the conviction of the Individual that God is an individual God? A testimony of Joseph amounts to an acknowledgment that the Book of Mormon was brought forth at his hands. And this is a fact. It is not a testament to the fact that God is my personal God. Nor that Jesus Christ is our Savior. If we claim Jesus as our Savior then why are we not involved more personally with his teaching. We think somebody else has the answers. How can that be personal? We are dismissive of the Bible. In as far as it is correct, we want to except it. Sad, truely, Sad. The Bible has so much to offer. More then it is being given credit for by those who hold without question to the validity of the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. It is to bad that scripture as a whole cannot be valued as equal. Then can ones progress be made in understanding. However, to place somebody elses understanding over another is favoritism toward something. Favoritism is a great block to understanding. Sad. You can point and call it "spiritual porn" all you wish. I can do nothing about what anyone else believes. As for me I continue to grow in understanding. This in fact is what my life is about for now and I hope for the rest of my life. I know you will say the same. What direction is your understanding taking you? And are you sure of that direction.

Hmmmm. Lets see if I can place the idea of what I have termed "Smithite Mormonism" in to some context. The idea is narrow in terms and broad in it scope. Members of the Church will usually follow the understanding of the Gospel as it is based on some General Authorities point of view. Bruce R. McConkie comes to mind as an example of how General Authorities have an anwser to a subject. We place more value on what is in the Doctrine and Covenants then what is in the Bible or Book of Mormon. As if some how Joseph had the answers to subjects that are written about in those books. The individuals inspiration to answers on questions of doctrine are lost in the final word of those perceived by the individual to know more then the individual thinks he/she can be inspired to understand. In the end we simply come to the conclusion that the answers to Gospel questions are answered by agreeing with the other guy. We do not learn the answer for ourselves, we do not need to, the other guy has the answer. When somebody comes up and mentions something that is contrary to what we believe, we fend them off. It has been noted on this thread the concerns of some that somehow I will post contrary to the terms set forth in agreement to post on the forum. Contrary as to what guidelines. The Church is the people, not an organization. The Church is the assambly of a group of people who agree on a subject. If the Church is then a group of people, then the guidelines of disagreement applies to what? What is there to post against? Without the people there is no Church, rules cannot be applied. Whose guidelines do we follow, and why? Can we reach beyond the the teachings of the Church and still maintain the core values that are set forth by it without loosing an understanding of the Gospel itself? This is a short answer. It has more complexity beyond this. Hope the idea is set forth. These concepts cannot be applied individually, more collectively. Separating the individual from the collective is not an easy task.

Just_A_Guy Hmmmm. Not really. Speakzeasy, Should they not at least be treated as equal? As equals they can be compared to each other for their own value.