Speakzeasy

Finrock, ok. Sorry about sounding defensive. I appreciate you be up front with me. A Smithite Mormon, my view, is simply one who places more value on the teachings of Joseph Smith, Jr. than the Bible and/or Book of Mormon. I hope that gives some resolve to the question. I do not mean this in bad way. It just stands out really well among most members of the Church. It was not stated to be taken personal by anyone individual. Nor is it directed at anyone individual.

Just_A_Guy, You really need to go back and read that post. http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/54789-sealed-plates-2.html#post763457 I explained that they have a common understanding, a common belief in Joseph Smith. My concern is not the division of the church by anyone person or group of people. I could careless about what they thought their capacity in the Church leadership was or could have been. They all had one thing in common - their beliefs in Mormonism originated with Joseph Smith. Where does the Doctrine and Covenants originate: Joseph Smith.

Just_A_Guy And Brigham Young was not involved?

ElectofGod, I have no difficulties or problems with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Book of Mormon has been brought forth at the time that God saw fit. It was interpret by Joseph Smith, Jr. with the inspiration of God. It was first published in 1830. Its purpose is one of the covenants God made with father Abraham. Here is a list relating to the covenants made with Abraham (not necessarily in this order): The first covenant: 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. (Genesis 17:5) 15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. (Genesis 17:15-16) Yet to be fulfilled (In the Book of Revelation 5:6-10 you will find reference to this). The second covenant: 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. (Genesis 17:5-7) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation . . . (Genesis 18:18). This covenant can only fulfilled in the birth and crucifixion of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. It is the Covenant to the righteous of the House of Israel, and the remnant of the House of Israel that are yet to be gathered. The third covenant: . . . and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? (Genesis 18:18) This is the covenant made with Abraham is to the Gentiles. This Covenant is made to the Gentiles through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Manasseh (the eldest son of Joseph). Take a look at Alma 10:3 and explain the Book of Mormon is not from the descendants of Manasseh. In Book of Mormon Nephi is told how the Book of Mormon would come about and to whom would receive it. This story can be found in 1 Ne. 13:21-36. Now I can tell you that the people and civilization that Mormon and Moroni have compiled an abridgment about did actually exist. The names given to the people written about may or may not have been Nephites and Lamanites proper (as did the other people). But exist they did. The Book of Mormon is a fulfillment of Gods covenant that he made with Abraham relating to the Gentiles: . . . all the nations of the earth shall be blessed . . . (Genesis 18:18). I have no question about the covenant that was between Abraham and God relating to the Gentiles.

Finrock Here is a link about the Succession difficulties related to Joseph Smith's death in a Portable Data File (PDf) format located on byustudies.byu.edu (I "googled" it) at Brigham Young University web site: Succession Crisis - BYU Studies - Brigham Young University: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=joseph%20smith%20Succession&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEYQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbyustudies.byu.edu%2FarticleDownload.aspx%3Ftitle%3D5216%26linkURL%3D16.2QuinnMormon-d34b21f7-1b48-4298-8746-0298a920b78f.pdf&ei=G-PyUbOuL46MyAHPwoC4CA&usg=AFQjCNFi9rIIuchE-C0AJv5gth2Payp4og&bvm=bv.49784469,d.aWc You will find in the story of the succession to Joseph Smith, Jr. that Rigdonites, Strangites and others were not "off-shoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." What do they have in common? They all shared the same belief. The Doctrine and Covenants is an expression of that belief. You will find that to be true in the document at the link above. By the way it does not say anything about the Doctrine and Covenants and any bodies belief. Try to separate "Mormonism" from the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph Smite, Jr. is its primary author. The author of the document link to above presents an attitude from the Mormon population toward Joseph Smith, that more or less continues today.

Finrock I will answer your question, if you answer mine. What is Strangite Mormonism? What is Rigdonite Mormonism? etc. PrisonChaplain had an observation on the subject: prisonchaplain http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/54135-testimony-book-mormon.html#post755721

The Lord has provided for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by means of the Melchizedek Priesthood, to be given the house of Israel to receive their inheritance. I have some limited information to the answer by what means it is that the Lord will use to transfer the Melchizedek Priesthood to its rightful heirs. The discussion is way off topic of this tread. Not what I meant to happen.

These words scripture are not written with random meaning. They must applied as the author meant for them to be applied. The idea that we can apply any definition to a word without following the subject does not really promote understanding. To further the subject: In 1 Nephi 15:13 we find: "and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—" Then in we 3 Nephi 16:10-11 we find: . . . I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them (the Gentiles). 11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. So that after the fullness of the Gospel is taken from the Gentiles who receive it (us) it will be given to the house of Israel. A fulfilling of the covenant made with the house of Israel. Both 1 Nephi 15:13 and 3 Nephi 16:10-11 point to the same time period. Words in the scriptures must follow the subject or they loose their meaning. (Sorry, I did not post here to redirect this to another subject.)

ElectofGod http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/54789-sealed-plates.html#post762366 Your question is a very good one. It is also one that cannot be answered by Smithite Mormonism. Smithite Mormonism is the Religion of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church that has brought forth the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles. This is stated clearly by Nephi: And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed (1 Nephi 15:13). (italics added) Note that the word "through" means 'Moving in one side and out of the other side' Note that the word "from" is 'used as a function word to indicate physical separation' In 3 Nephi we learn what the Lord told the nephites about the time period when the Gentiles who received the fullness of the Gospel would loss it: And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them (3 Nephi 16:10). (Italics added) Note that the word "from" is 'used as a function word to indicate physical separation' When the time frame is misunderstood, so are the scriptures. This discrepancy can be resolved. However, we are very stuck with the point of view given to us in Smithite Mormonism.

Moving from State to State makes this type of research more the interesting. If you know the address to the home/apartment that was lived in at the time of ordination, that may still be workable. If you know the city and you, or somebody you know lives there, the address may attained at the Public Library. There are directories published by a company once named was R.L. Polk, now called Polk City Directories. You can find out if they publish a directory for the city/community you are interested in from a list at the following web site: Home - Polk City Directories click "Directory Search" at the top right of the page. or by calling the local Public Library to see if they have them (most useful). If there is a directory for your City/Community of interest, and you have the name of the head of household, the address maybe listed. The Head of Household can sometimes be another family member/friend in the case of multiple families or children living with other family/friends in the same unit. The listing usually gives the Head of Household occupation. Note that when going through the Polk directories that they will sometimes cover an area larger then the published area name would suggest. This is more because municipal boundaries change from time to time or part of the county is included in their survey. You may want to go through each year that the Polk Directory was published for the area of interest. This is because people move around at times. The Head of Household may change as well. Once you have an address you can call the membership department and ask them about information so that you can contact the Bishop/Clerk in the ward that covers the area in which the address is located. Note that the Contact at the Membership Office maybe willing, if it is possible, to provide a date of creation of the Ward. Possibly with Ward(s) from which it was created. Simply something you might ask while your on the phone with that office. When contacting the Clerk for the current Ward in the area of interest. Ask when the ward was created and about previous ward boundaries. If the Ward boundaries has not changed your in luck. If they have changed, then with some luck, you can find out more from the Clerk in the previous ward(s). There maybe a Stake directory that gives information about contacting other Ward Bishop/Clerk(s). Contact the Bishop/Clerk(s) in the previous ward(s) that is a associated with the division of the Ward boundaries for the area of interest. You probably will be able to contact the Ward by telephone, if you have an address. In the end you have the name of the Ward for which the records need to be searched.

Note that as I begin this, I realize that to place four chapters of text from the Book of Mormon is a bit much. So to make the post shorter, I would like to encourage the reader to use a copy of the Book Mormon to follow along with it.) The belief that the Church of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) is that it is the only true church upon the earth stems from 1 Ne. 14:10, which states: And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth (1 Ne 14:10). Members of the LDS Church have been taught that the Church is the only true church using this verse as a bases for that belief. Here is a different look at the vision recorded in 1 Nephi 11-14: (Dates for the Book of Mormon events are from the publication of LDS Church.) <b>Geography</b>: Roman Empire <b>Dates:</b> about 1 B.C.-33 The the tree of life and the birth and death of Jesus Christ: 1 Ne. 11:7-36. <b>Geography:</b> North America <b>Dates:</b> about 1 A.D-34 The condition and state of iniquity of the descendants of Lehi proir to the visit of Jesus Christ: 1Ne. 12:1-5. The visit that Jesus Christ makes with the Nephites: 1 Ne. 12:6-10. <b>Dates:</b> 34-210 The Nephites are righteous for four generations: 1 Ne. 12:12. <b>Dates:</b> about 210-1492 The Nephites reject the Gopsel of Jesus Chirst; are given to wars with the Lamanites; dwindle in unbelief: 1 Ne. 12:13-23. <b>Geography:</b> Europe <b>Dates:</b> 312-1620 The nations and kingdoms of Europe: 1 Ne. 13:1-3. The spiritual condition of the Europeans: 1 Ne. 13:5-9. The Atlantic ocean is between America and Europe: 1 Ne. 13:10. Nephi is told of God's wrath that against the American Indians: 1 Ne. 13:11. Christopher Columbus is given the Holy Ghost: 1 Ne. 13:12. The Holy Ghost is given to the European religious separatist (colonization started in 1620). Inspiring them to cross the Atlanic Ocean: 1 Ne. 13:13. <b>Geography:</b> America <b>Date:</b> about 1620-1783 The Holy Ghost is upon the colonist of America and so that they did prosper: 1 Ne. 13:15-16. The American Revelationary War: 1 Ne. 13:17-19 <b>Dates:</b> 1620-1830 Back ground given of the Bible: 1 Ne. 13:20-29. The Bible is among the Americans (1620-1830): 1 Ne. 13:29-30. The American Indian Wars from about 1622 until around 1924: 1 Ne. 13:31, 33-34. Dates: 1830 The reason that the Book of Mormon is brought forth to the Gentiles: 1 Ne. 13:32, 34 (Note that the reason for the Book of Mormon is "the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back (1 Ne. 13:34) from the Bible they had brought from Europe. The Gentiles of America did not know anything of the fullness of the Gospel or have the fullness of the gospel before this. So when did the Gentiles receive and were taught about the fullness of the Gospel?) The Nephites write a history that is to come forth to the Gentiles in the United States of America: 1 Ne. 13:35-36. Likewise, Nephi explains part of the vision to his brothers: 13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles (Americans), is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles (Americans), and from the Gentiles (Americans) unto the remnant of our seed (1 Ne. 15:13). <b>Dates:</b> 1830-Future -- Nephi leaves a gap here. It is interesting to note that Nephi only picks important events while writing about his vision -- Dates: 1946-Future Here Jesus fills some of the gap that Nephi leaves in his vision: 10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles (Americans) shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them (Americans). 11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them. 12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles (everyone not gathered to Zion) shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel. (3 Ne. 16:10-11) The word "from" at the end of both 1 Ne. 13:10 and 3 Ne. 15:13 is "used as a function word to indicate physical separation or an act or condition of removal" (Merrian Webster 10th dictionary). After Jesus Christ ". . .will bring the fulness of my gospel from among . . ." (1 Ne. 16:10) the Gentiles, then 1 Ne. 14:10 belongs to this story: And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth (1 Ne 14:10). 1 Nephi 13:37-13:38 are about the people gathered to Zion (the kingdom of God). They are yet future. Note that story in 1 Ne. 13:39 and 2 Ne. 29:12-13 are inconsistent with one another. They are the same story. 1 Ne. 13:40-41 relates to the bringing forth of the Book of Mormon to the Gentiles in America. 1 Ne. 13:42 tells how these things work from the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The fullness of the Gospel is given to the House of Israel, in the people of Manasseh (Jews). The fullness of the Gospel is given to the Gentiles in America (Gentiles), this used twice. The righteous of the house of recieve the fullness of the Gospel (Jews). 1 Nephi 14:1-6 relates to the scripture that shall be given to the people gathered in Zion. 1 Nephi 14:7 relates to the missionary work of the house of Israel from Zion. 1 Ne. 14:9 gives the meaning and purpose of the events that are recorded in the Book of Revelation. From here the vision is an overlap of John's vision recorded in the Book of Revelation. The focas of the subject is different, the time period is the same. So the Gentiles received the fullness of the Gospel in 1830 when Book of Mormon was published (1 Ne. 13:34). Not the house of Israel. Re-read 1 Ne. 15:13 and see if you can explain how the Gentiles the Mediterranean region received the fullness of the Gospel during the first century A.D.. Gentiles of America cannot be the same people as the house of Israel. Otherwise the Gentiles of America would be called the house of Israel. Gentiles of America and the house of Israel are not the same group of people.

Ok, I'll come clean. My name is Brian. I don't have much in the way of an introduction. Quite simply, I am waiting for the establishment of Zion. I'm invited. The events are moving forward, they have been to slow in occurring for me. However, it is an appointed time on Gods calendar. I cannot seem to affect it (nor should I be able to) and I do not know when (by date) it will occur (very soon). I watch and wait. Lifes only true relationship is the one between man and God. A testimony is the easy part. Ten years from this coming November I was given an opportunity to understand who I am and what my purpose in life is. Actually, I received part of the information in 1982. It was not until 2003 that I was given some of the rest of the story and began to understand. It as been the focas of my life since then. I was given an understanding (in part) of the Biblical and Book of Mormon prophecies over the past ten years. And I have been given a limited understanding of my relationship to the events that they represent. I have learn and know that the prophecies about the last day events recorded in the Bible and Book of Mormon are true. I know that the Bible and Book of Mormon are inspired of God. I know that the people that is written about in the Book of Mormon truly did exist as a society and civilization here upon the American continent. I know that Mormon did abridge the history of the people of whom he was an eye witness to their destruction. I know that Jesus is the son of God, the redeemer of man kind and that he truely lives. I know these things not because of men nor institutions. This has given my life meaning, direction and inspiration. May God, the Father, of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob bless all of us with and understanding so that we can be drawn to him, amen.

Here is a thought. During the period of 1981 until 1994 I volunteer with the Family History Library (FHL) here in Salt Lake City. My area was LDS research. So here is an idea. The ward records were kept in books prior to the popularity of the computer. These books were kept by the ward clerk and have been microfilmed (at least nearly all of them that exist) and can be found or requested through the Family History Department. I have not been there for a while, so I am not sure what type of restrictions there are to accessing the microfilm for these records. Most of the ward records that I went through or remember seeing in the index at the FHL where 1960 and earlier. There are some latter records, you will need to look at the FHL Catalog for the ward your interested in. When the records were transferred they usually moved the information from the books to the electronic data base. It does not mean that they got everything. If the ward is old enough you will find multiple books. Usually because the clerks filled a book and started a new one. You can look into it at the local Family History Center and see if the film(s) can be requested. If not Salt Lake FHL has them. The LDS Church Archives has all records available for membership records in book form (usually on microfilm). The ward records are pretty straight foreword in their organization. The clerks writing may be another story. The more resent the record the more likely it is to be typed rather hand written. Hope this helps. P.S. If the ward boundaries changed the record goes the old ward and a new ward record is begun under new wards name. Something to watch for when searching these records.

(Note that this is a long post, sorry) The answer to your question probably is best answered by God. I do not have a direct answer myself. I can give you what the scripture explains to us in the Book of Revelation: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:9-11) 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (Rev. 7:13-17) I do not know if this is the answer to your question. There are other times that "blood" is necessarily used as a factor in bring forth as a precursor of something that God wants to accomplish. We see this in at least two last day events. The first event is is related to the house of Israel, in the people of Manasseh. We know them as Lamanites from the Book of Mormon. They are the descendants of Lehi, a descendant of Manasseh (Alma 10:3). The European Gentiles are brought to the New World (what we now know as The United States of America) after the house of Israel, in the descendants of Manasseh, reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (In 1 Ne. 20:27 "after" relates to rejecting the Gospel of of Jesus and "blessed" relates to be given the Gospel of Jesus Christ) 27 And after that ye were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed-unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all, unto the scattering of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Ne. 20:27) 9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them- (3 Ne. 16:9) 28 And they shall be a scourge unto the people of this land. . . (3 Ne. 20:28) 30 Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren. 31 Neither will he suffer that the Gentiles shall destroy the seed of thy brethren. (1 Ne. 13:30-31) Was God using "blood" to set the stage (precursor) so that the fullness of the Gospel can be brought forth to the Gentiles here in America?. Another example is found in the Old Testament, in the Book of Ezekiel. 14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. 17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? 18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; (Ezek. 38:14-19) 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. (Ezek. 38:23) Here God will be sanctified by an invasion of the State of Israel. We find in Ezek. 38:16 and 23 that when the invasion occurs and God is sanctified that he will be made known in the eyes of many nations. Ezekiel chapter 38 is about the beginning of the Invasion into two different locations at about the same time. The second location is the State of Israel. The current inhabitants of the State of Israel are members of the house of Israel, in the descendants of tribe of Juda. "I will be known in the eyes of many nations" (Ezek. 38:23). Nations here is a reference the house of Israel. That makes this prophecy or rather its fulfillment an important one. God setup the State of Israel in 1948 as a precursor that there can be a fulfillment of the prophecies Ezekiel 38 and 39. These are the two times since the death of Jesus that I know of when "blood" is part of prophecy relating to an important event that serves Gods purpose. There may be others. It appears to be necessary for the use of blood so that God can bring about an event to fulfill his purposes. It seems to apply to us as individuals as well. Reading from the Book of Daniel we find that there will be a group of people from the house of Israel that are yet to be tried: 35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Dan. 11:35). This falls in line with the parts of the Book of Revelation quoted above.