faith4

town house

I agree with Eoywn, but not love so much as an emotion, but Love as a Person. God, our Father, is Love. And when we have Love, true Love, and are able to understand Who it is and what He is giving us, through grace, then we are able to realize that nothing else really matters, but this one Love. Once we realize this, and are able to return this love as best we can, we suddenly see just how blessed we really are in our life, with everything that God has given us. How could we not? And we can also finally understand that this Love can make goodness come out of any situation, therefore, we can trust our Father and His Love, because He gives us His very self, and He is trustworthy. So, IMO, happiness is found in losing yourself to Love, dying to self and allowing Christ to live within us, to truly transform us so that we no longer seek to find happiness in the material world or through others, but only through Christ.

Town square

:) I think you misunderstood me. I do follow Gods Will for me in my life, and I do NOT have the attitude that "I have been good, is that enough?". I was simply quoting you, and remarking that that is not how I live my life, nor is it how I view my life. Throughout the rest of that paragraph, I was trying to say that nothing I can do will ever be enough, I have to give my whole self at all times, and yet, with my humanity, I will always fall short. But it doesn't stop me from doing my best every day to live a virtuous and hardworking life, devoted entirely to God in service to all around me, and done with genuine love. We also have magazines (I subscribe to two magazines, another we get as part of my hubby being a member of the Knights of Columbus, and we also receive our Diocesan Catholic Newspaper every month), I attend conferences (in which I have one I am very excited about this month on the 20th) , and we also have plenty of encylicals and teachings which can be found online, in a bookstore, and/or heard on the radio or tv. All of which I, and my husband, participate in. And all of these things do the same things you explain yours to do. :) The New Covenant I also keep, by partaking of the Holy Eucharist in Mass, the wedding feast of the Lamb. In my Church, my husband and I are highly active and were named "Family of the Year" in our Parish in 2012, among approximately 2,500 registered families. I guess I could say that we are also active in the ward we would've been assigned to, if we were LDS, by contributing to all holiday charities the ward fundraises for, with money and food; and by being strong members of our neighborhood community. I guess what I'm saying is, I am living the Gospel as best as I can. And for me, I have a testimony of my faith which drives me and sustains me everyday in my work. I live what is expected of me, by those I believe, and know, to have the true authority. Now, obviously, on this forum, you and most everyone else, believe that the true authority resides in your church. I'm not trying to argue with you about this, the OP, IMHO, was a challenge to forum members to consider how we choose to live our lives in accordance with the Gospel. I merely answered that question from my own POV, and in line with my own faith.

I already do. I follow the Church established by Christ Himself, and I have faith in the Church b/c I was guided to it by the Holy Spirit, and I have chosen to offer up my whole life in accordance with Gods Holy Will. I choose to be ONE with Christ as He is ONE with the Father. If I were to deny what He has spoken to me, and what the Holy Spirit has witnessed to me, throughout my life, then I would be denying Christ and would not be living according to His Will. I have no attitude either, that "all is well", or "I have been good, is that enough?". I offer up my life, and all the blessings He has given me, in constant service, to my family, neighbors, friends, and strangers. There is never enough that I can do to say thank you to Jesus for what He has done for me, the Graces He has bestowed on me. The best I can do is to offer my life up as a continous prayer, praying everyday for the strength to live the virtues of justice, courage, temperance, faith, hope and love. And althougth I am constantly falling short of these things, I know Jesus loves me, He has told me, and there is nothing, nothing, in this world that can compare to the love God has for each of us. It is immense, immeasurable and completely beyond human description. He is my hope. He is my life. And, I'm very confident in saying, you are not God. Please do not presume to judge me and describe which "heaven" I will be going to. I believe in ONE heaven as I believe in ONE God. Now perhaps, we can continue with the original OP instead of judging whether or not what I do to live the gospel is good enough for ya'll.

I agree with this, sometimes it doesn't matter how much a person tries to restrict their caloric intake, the body stores every calorie anyway. One of my sisters is like this. She is extremely overweight, but often times, she hardly eats at all to try and lose weight. A few years ago, she signed up with weight watchers, and in their program, according to her weight, she wasn't eating enough to lose weight. She had to consume alot on their program, which was a big struggle for her b/c she didn't feel hungry enough to be eating so much, yet she steadily began to lose weight w/an increase in caloric intake. They told her that b/c she wasn't consuming enough calories before, her body was in starvation mode and storing the calories away for her survival. She thought it was crazy talk, but it worked, eating more made her lose weight. Although, she's not with weight watchers anymore, and her weight is back up, and she's hardly eating again She doesn't eat consistently, and when she does, it's usually food that's not good for her, and she'll eat too much of it at one time. Our bodies know what's best for us, and it can be as different for me as it is for you, as there are alot of factors involved like TFP said. I try to eat "clean", it's made a difference with my family, although I've actually gained some weight. Maybe I should try this twinkie diet...

I like it. We are all pilgrims on our own way, all of us are in one way or another, being drawn to God. This is something you wrote while angry, and IMO, if I had heard someone say that, I would be a little annoyed as well. But please keep in mind, that this mindset, this man on the radio, doesn't speak on behalf of every religion (or even for his religion, whatever that may be), or even for every "thou shall not". It seems like you're still trying to follow Gods call. I wish you well on your pilgrim journey :)

My entire life I consider a prayer, an offering, to God. I am a SAHM, and although that can be difficult at times, I'm thankful for the opportunity to care for my family and do what God has asked me to do. So even as I'm packing school lunches, pulling weeds, scrubbing smashed in food out of the tile grout, or doing laundry, I make it a prayer. My husband and I teach our kids about our faith, and we pray, as a family every day. We also take any opportunity presented to us, to do good for our neighbors, friends and family, no matter the religious affiliation. We keep our arms open wide for everyone :)

Thank you estradling. I never thought about "reporting" it b/c I've never had to do that here before.

Not all of what you posted is truth either, most of that is also derived from anti-Catholic sources. A reformation was indeed needed at that time, however, Luther and the other reformers went about it the wrong way, by cutting themselves off from the true vine rather than trying to reform and remain within the Church. But just b/c there was some corruption in the Church (some, not all), it does not prove a total and great apostasy. Whenever corrupted leaders came into the Church (the weeds), God raised up some of our greatest saints (wheat) to help shine the light for the people who could not see past the corruption. Unless you learn both sides of the story, and read history in its actual context, you really can't rely on "historical" truths which are derived from contentious protestant sources when the reformation was first born. Most of these half-truths come from the 16th-18th centuries, when the contention between the Church and Protestants was still really ugly. Thank God, it's not as bad as it used to be, but many of these bad seeds have created bad fruit which have multiplied and spread over the centuries. It's difficult to tell what's truth now unless one goes to the actual sources and read everything within its proper context.

Oh, I beg to differ!!!! A similar conversation is going on at CAF about Joseph Smith, and you would hate it. And yes, it is unfair. I went to a Temple once w/a friend for an Easter production, and surrounding the gates were anti-mormons handing out anti-mormon material and shouting out terrible things about your faith. I stood their and berated these "Christians" and defended your church's honor in front of everyone on that corner who was passing by, b/c I always feel that methods such as these are unfair and unrighteouss. If you think posting anti- material is fair and righteouss, then I don't know how you can possibly also say you've felt the Holy Spirit in you. And don't be confused, I want a decent, respectful conversation. I shouldn't have to spell that out for you.

I already understand this. In fact, I've mentioned this already a few times, I *know* I'm on an LDS forum, I don't need to be reminded. There have been several threads on this forum, in the past, where I've seen a few bites taken here and there out of my faith, I *expected* this when I joined. I've always let it go, b/c I already *know* I'm on an LDS forum, and a little Catholic bashing is bound to happen from time to time. THIS post differs from the others, however, in lack of credibility and respect for history & my faith altogether. I can use his outline in the OP, to make a near identical thread on a Catholic forum to "prove" your church's total apostasy (Corruption? check. Lust? check. Greed? check. Heresy? check. etc...do you understand what I'm trying to say now??) And yet, you wouldn't accept it at face value b/c you would know, that I was taking "facts" out of historical context. So is this a little Catholic bashing? Nope, this one is way different than what I've seen before. Spam needs some serious correction b/c he's teaching falsehoods as truth, and none of you can tell the difference of which is false and which is truth. This is un-Christian. THIS is WHY this thread is contentious, it's a bad seed to begin with. Spams post is the bad fruit from a bad seed that he received from someone/somewhere else. Anatess can recognize this b/c she used to be Catholic, she can see that he's taking things out of context w/no reference, respect, or understanding to my faith. And in extension, this thread is dispresctful to my very person by it's anti-Catholic method. I am here to respect your faith by avoiding anti-LDS methods such as this, why would I quietly roll over then when someone uses an unrighteouss anti-Catholic method? And why don't you care that what he's posting is not historically accurate?? Why would you rather defend deception then try to respectfully find out what's true? How is that Christian?? You aren't defending your faith here, you're defending your right to spread anti-Catholic material and believe it. And, I never stated, and neither did Anatess, that anyone on this forum has no right to defend their faith. She said that it was un-Christian to spread deception, and then defend and argue the right to do so. This OP is not attacking anyone's faith but mine, do I not also have a right to at least try to correct some of the wrongs he's posted? So everyone here can defend their faith, except me? Nothing I have said has been to attack your church at all, spams post is an unhonorable & unrighteouss method of "witnessing" the LDS church. And any anti- method such as this is always contentious and a huge turnoff. And if I gave off the impression that I'm trying to "beat" an apology out of anyone, then I apologize, I'm not trying to "beat" an apology out of anyone, I just want spam to recognize that what he's posting, is not exactly historically correct or useful in converting others. If this is how he attempts to convert others, then I'm more surprised more people haven't chased him off their lawns with a shovel! None of his posts I can ever take at face value, or weigh with any merit, b/c he has shown me several times now, that he's unable to post with credibility. ALL of you who post on here regurlarly I respect, and I have been able to learn from your well-thought out discussions and links. I can not extend this same courtesy to spam. Now, if somehow you truly believe that I am stepping on spams toes, and I'm the one out of line, then by all means, continue in your anti-Catholic learning. Seminary, you can stand with Joseph Smith, I'll go stand with Jesus Christ and learn to love my neighbors regardless of their religious affiliation. "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

I'm not here to argue w/you. But I want to make this clear, so maybe this can stop. Seminary, you're missing the point of why I'm offended. Believe it or not, it's not b/c I "don't have the truth" therefore I'm "easily insulted and angered". If I started taking some of your church's history (you know, the less-than-proud moments) and posted them on a Catholic forum as "proof" of how terrible your church was, and therefore, couldn't be true, you would be offended too (provided of course, that we switched spots just as an example). There are SO MANY instances in your church's history that I could use as an example, where I could just "cut" something out that Smith said or did (or Young or others) and then "paste" it on this forum without any thoughts of historical context, or justification for why said thing was said or done. You would consider this as unfair and disrespectful...but as long as it's not your church, then it must be a-okay! Why not! If they're offended, it's all their fault!! Most members here, b/c you are LDS, can't recognize the half-truths from the truths, which were simply plucked out of history and put on parade for mocking. Nor do you understand my faith and what we believe, so everything is out of context. It is frustrating, and I'm trying to respond as best I can w/o getting angry. Jesus did not teach that the seed which is sown with discord, and made up with half-truths & deception, is the best seed for spiritual growth. So how can I be enlightened through insults? How does the Holy Spirit make good fruits come from such a seed? And do you really think I have contentious motives & have problems with pride? Do you believe that I'm easily angered and insulted? Do you know me so well that you are prepared to judge me, without fear of offending, with a clean conscience?? Where is Christ in this conversation? How about we have an actual conversation again? I would like that.

Wow, I am impressed Anatess and AndyPG! Thank you for helping me out, I didn't even realize this thread was being used again (I don't receive any notifications about replies from threads I've been active in, so sometimes I completely forget to check). Anatess, thank you also for helping me in some of the other threads, I really appreciate it. I've seen and heard all these arguments before, it's not new to me, but it was too much too fast, and I allowed myself to get too emotional as well and am trying to just back away, lol. I choose to stay b/c I know that most of the members here are very respectful and I really do enjoy the questions posed on this forum. Many of the questions are the same ones I have, but do not wish to ask my friends & neighbors (some may be sensitive) out of respect for them. I have found that this is the best place to find answers to my questions & understand your beliefs from devout members perspectives.

See, spam, it's the rewriting of history that I don't like. You're not only unfamiliar with my Church's history, but you're apparently unfamiliar with your own as well. Why did the Baptist minister chase with you off his lawn with a shovel? I have a hard time believing it was b/c you were being meek and kind. Perhaps I'm having trouble finding any brotherly love and kindness in your posts online, b/c this is a forum and we can't speak face to face, I understand that. That's why I've always given the benefit of the doubt to other posters online, especially on a site like this where I already know your beliefs don't line up with mine. But if you've had this much trouble w/people of other faiths, then it makes me wonder if perhaps you just don't know how to witness your beliefs, which then makes me wonder if you've ever felt the Holy Spirit after all. All of my LDS neighbors and friends, have done a much better job than you have in the witnessing department, I have no problems with them whatsoever, and they have no problems with me and my family. And I have found that most posters here also do a fine job giving balanced arguments, which are well thought out and yet respectful. The discussions here are usually very interesting and thought-provoking. Go back and read JAG's posts on this thread, I find nothing disrespectful in his tone at all. He can disagree with my beliefs, and admit that this is a tough one, but he's not patronizing me. As for persecution, my Catholic brothers and sisters are being martyred right now, as we speak, in the middle east. They're being thrown out of their homes and robbed. Forced to convert, be exiled or executed. In fact, my Christian brothers and sisters have been continually martryed these past 2000 years in one place or another, for our beliefs (and I speak of not just Catholics, but other Christians as well). Persecution is nothing new for us, you speak about it as if you are the only ones who have ever been persecuted or called names. We've got about 1800 years worth of persecution on you, and I'm expecting it to turn even uglier on Catholics in this country within the next few years. Jesus told us to expect persecution, and that's what we've been given, I have no fear of this or what's coming. So keep on posting, I'll keep on my rolling my eyes at your version of "history" & tolerate it (maybe) b/c I already know that God is not just my judge, but yours as well. I only wish the best for you, and all others on this forum :) I will pray for you, please pray for me!

My sacracstic reply was in direct response to spams extremely offensive "parable". Shall we review? "That didn't stop the Adversary from trying to hack the network, however. Eventually, his hackers cracked the security by getting people to reject the legal "admins" and to ultimately murder them. They pirated and spoofed others, to convince them that their network was the same as the original one...they changed the system passwords. In the "forest" of network domains, these false system administrators cut the links and separated their domains from the topmost level. They changed the security and refused "broadcasts" from the top...As the new system rolled out, the hackers attacked it, not only in discussions about it, but they physically attacked it also. They spread lies, distortions, sent out viruses... the hackers continued their attacks...In other cases, they were able to turn converts away, back to their old, corrupt system because of peer pressure, tradition, or coercion...It was easier to prejudice those who were ignorant of the possibilities of the new system or who were just too proud to make the switch...The hackers exploited human nature's resistance to change. They made convincing intellectual arguments and some that simply appealed to prejudice or vanity....When faced with losing their market share, there's nothing the hackers wouldn't do to protect the power and control they exercise to keep their user base from learning the truth. The most frightening thing in the world to them is a user who suddenly realizes for himself that he can go to the top-level "System Administrator," Does it look like spam was willing to conced that any good was possible in all this? No. He just wants to make my faith look as evil as possible. And you're right, I'm not going to use the "whoever has more members is the true and infallible church" line of reasoning, that was not the point. My point was to highlight spams absurd "parable" & his complete lack of any respect for non-LDS Christians, who he deems either ignorant or too vain or proud to convert. And btw, every Christian, through every century, has been able to access the "System Administrator", nothing has ever blocked him/her from prayer and the love of God. And yes, I would argue that God would prevent such a dire TOTAL apostasy. After all, I am Catholic, not b/c I'm lazy, ignorant our proud like Spam would like for everyone to believe, but b/c I have received a testimony, after much prayer and fasting to the "System Administrator". But if this is how spam is showing how the Holy Ghost has affected his life, he's doing a pretty terrible job of witnessing this to me. "This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." Jn 13:35. I have been thoroughly enjoying my time on this forum learning about your faith from those who are devout, but his posts on this forum have been a huge turn-off. I will quietly remain on this forum anyway, since I know who is credible, and who is not. JAG I have always enjoyed your posts, thank you for being respectful.

God is my witness :) Lol! May the Peace, Grace and Blessings of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon you and all those you love. xoxo

You really don't get me, do you? Lol! That's okay with me! God bless Spamlds! Lol!!!

Before you go, pray for the strength and courage to confess, ask for the Holy Ghost to help you. You can do this!

For those LDS who have trouble understanding the Trinity, and may wish to try and understand it from our perspective, I suggest the book Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed. It's an excellent book, very deep theologically, and may be difficult for those who aren't Catholic to grasp some of what he's saying, but he does a really good job of showing what the Trinity is.

I actually was not familiar with the "Mormon Ignaramuses" story. God is my witness, and this gives me peace, b/c I know, and He knows what He has done for me. He has revealed Himself to me, I have seen His hand at work in my life, even as a child, though I did not understand until I was an adult and I could see how everything worked out perfectly in hindsight. I have experienced the miraculous, seen the miraculous, heard the miraculous and felt the miraculous (both interiorly and exteriorly). Spamlds, you may think others from different faiths can't truly experience the Holy Spirit in their lives, that somehow we lack the proper humility and sincerity, that we've been "blinded by craftiness of men", but I have experienced the Holy Spirit. And that love and joy, that He has put in my heart has erased all my fears, His heavenly peace, has infused every part of my being. I do not fear persecution, I do not fear rejection, I do not fear your judgement, I do not fear cancer or sickness, I do not fear death. For I know that when death comes, I will be crying for joy, with His name on my lips, and my arms wide open for His embrace!! To feel His love again! The love we feel for our children is only a shadow compared to how He loves us! What He has given me, through my tears, seeking, fasting and prayers to know Him, is irreplaceable. Nothing on this earth can take it from me now, absolutely nothing can remove that Peace. This is a verse that a fellow parishioner (woman at my parish) gave to me. She said she was praying and this verse and myself came into her mind. So she wrote it down and told me the Holy Spirit gave this to her for me. "The Lord himself goes before you and he will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged." Deut. 31:8. This is only one example of many, many answers to my prayers, and many, many beautiful signs that He gave me on my search that were meant specifically for me. Perhaps this verse is insignificant to you, but it meant the world to me and has brought me to tears many times since I've received it. This does not mean that I discount anyone else's experiences of the Holy Spirit, Gods ways are not our ways. I will not presume that you did not seek and pray with sincerity and humility (though I do believe you did a terrible job "researching" my faith), and that what you experienced was misleading. Who I am to judge? Are you not my brother? You are my brother! What God has made plain to me, is that there is a great lack of peace in this world, and it's b/c there's a great lack of love. There's a lot of feigned love, and shallow love for our fellow brothers and sisters, but there is hardly any real love in our hearts. A love that is pure and honest...a love like a childs. Rather than presume that others aren't as righteous, or humble, or sincere, as you and your fellow church members, cross that line in your mind that separates you from them (and me). Love them instead. Step over, and learn who they are, not to "convert them" or "debate", but to love your neighbor. Pray with love for one another, rejoice with love for one another, understand with love those who don't understand you. In the end, we will be judged for how much we've loved one another. And yes, a few times I have gotten in a few "tiffs" w/a few of you, but I am still human, still just a person who has good days and bad days (um, 4 rowdy little boys anybody?!) who is doing the best she can. (Anatess likes to excuse her Filippino blood sometimes, so therefore I can blame my Mexican/French blood, I can be very stubborn). Oftentimes, I regret that we can't hold these conversations face to face, b/c then you could see me, and how much I actually enjoy being a part of these forums. I am constantly smiling (though not when I read spam's "parable", I was not smiling at. all.) and happy b/c I feel I am learning how to think "like a mormon". And by doing this, I can love my neighbors better by understanding who they are, since faith plays such a large role in their lives (as it also does in mine!). I can love them better b/c now any lingering prejudices I may have unknowingly harbored against their beliefs, can disappear and stop hindering my ability to love them more. Oh dear, now I'm preaching. Time to stop. I hope my intentions are more clear to all who read this now, I have been questioned about my intentions since I dared argue w/Spamlds about his "proof". I just wish to learn more and that's it, and I feel as if I have made progress in these past few months. Thank you for being patient w/me, a faithful Catholic. I already pray for all of you, please pray for me too!! xoxo

"Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?" Matt 7:3 I do not have time to write a lengthy reply to each of your points and questions, Anatess did a fine job trying to clarify for me. (Thank you Anatess). But, since you've mentioned the trial of Formosus a few times in separate posts, I will clarify this example for you. Yes, this trial actually happened, as ridiculous and petty as it sounds, the Catholic Church does not deny this, or try to hide it. But, just b/c Stephen VI declared Formosus' authority revoked, it does not mean it was "bound" in heaven, b/c Stephen VI was speaking as a man and not with Papal infallability. Papal infallability does not include every word that comes out of a Pope's mouth. Stephen VI could humiliate his predecessor posthumously all he wanted, it doens't mean any actual authority was reversed or changed. And just as the kings and high priests of Judah bickered over authority (Hasmonean Dynasty) a few decades before Jesus came, so God still fulfilled his Covenant promise to David that out of Judah, through the line of David, a ruler would come. This is why we are not to place our trust in men, but in God alone, that He can still fulfill his promises through corrupt men, His Glory will always be greater. Our job is not to judge those who were, and are, corrupted in His Church, but to trust in His faithfulness and Justice, for all these men will be judged for their works. And for those who were given more, more will be expected. "It's easy to float downstream. After all, even dead bodies can float downstream, but it takes a real man, a real woman, to swim against the current. " - Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen on times of persecution and corruption and how Christians could pick up their cross and carry it.

Hmmmmm...no...I understand what you're trying to say as well, but I still hold to what I've written. I view this as part of the mystery which ties into free will and yet, God already knows what's going to happen. God has given each of us gifts, some have more gifts than others, and it's up to us to use them wisely. God has given some people a greater propensity towards the gift of faith, and through this gift, He already knows that they will choose to remain faithful. All the Prophets are like this, as well as all the Patriarchal fathers and John the Baptist. There was always the choice to reject him, like what Jonah tried to do, yet He already knew that they would choose to follow Him, and obey. "Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life." But what is God's response to him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal." So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." (Rom 11:2-5) As with the Jews who "eyes" have been "veiled", this is for a purpose, it is not to prevent these people from rightousness. Do you think God acted unjustly with the Egyptians when he continued to darken the heart of Pharaoh so that He could show his mighty deeds to the Hebrews? Ten terrible plagues he sent upon them b/c of the darkening of Pharaohs heart, was this simply vanity on Gods part? No, even this served a purpose, it was all a part of the Plan of Salvation. This story of redemption from Egypt would provide a "type" of the redemption to come through Jesus. "Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not!...Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how muc more their full number...For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?...I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise in your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved...For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (Rom 11:11-12; 15; 25; 29). "You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?" But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker, "Why have you created me so?" Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one? What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction? This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glroy, names, us whom he has called, no only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles." (Rom 9:19-24)

???? I have no idea what all these Bible verses are supposed to prove to me. ??? And anything that comes from one of your own books I do not consider authoritative, so please don't include them as "proof".