faith4

You're right, you won't be getting an apology. If you're going to post something that looks like a research paper, then you had better be prepared to include references. Most everyone I see who posts on here, does that on there own, rarely have I had to ask. Thank you for the citations, I will have to look at them next time I have a larger chunk of time for research. I hope you read the quotes in their full context, oftentimes, any quote taken out of context can look bad, such as your 3rd quote from Eusebius. And I also hope you had a chance to do a full research of the lives, and other writings, of the fathers you're quoting, since you believe them to be valuable to your cause.

I can agree with that

Okay, but I thought I read on another thread where someone posted that this dispensation could not fail (my mind is suggesitn TFP, but I'm not sure), therefore you can truly trust your prophets and leaders, that they can't lead the church astray. Or maybe I'm not picking up on the slight nuance. Anyway, my point in asking, was just to clarify what you believe the Plan of Salvation to be (only part of it of course) and how God has interacted with us throughout history. It is very different than what Catholics, and most other Christians believe. We have a different Plan of Salvation, and this is why some of the Scriptures are taught with different translations between our respective faiths. I know you were once Catholic, so this shouldn't be a surprise to you, it would be difficult to not see the differences. This verse makes sense to you, as a "church" being built on revelation, which once this revelation is revealed, it can't be defeated, and can carry throughout time, correct? We also believe that Peter did receive a revelation and spoke with faith, revealing who Jesus was. And with this profession of faith, Jesus made Peter the steward of His church here on earth (the significance of the keys), to guide and protect the deposit of faith. The authority bestowed on Peter, we believe, has been passed down through ordination, b/c Peter had the authority to "bind" on earth, so the authority he passed on to other men, by the laying on of hands, was "bound" in heaven. I can understand your explanation, from your POV, but in the grand picture of what I know of God, however small it may be, it still doesn't quite fit right for me. Thank you though, I do enjoy reading these different threads and learning what you believe :) God bless!

Orthodox Christianity believes this was part of the Plan of Salvation, which is different than what your church teaches. We believe, God began to reveal Himself to more and more people throughout history, so that He could eventually reveal Himself to everyone in the world. He began with just two people, Adam and Eve. Then Noah and his family. Then Abraham and his tribe. Notice that when God commanded Abraham to be circumsized to enter into the covenant, all the males with him (slaves, and their male children included) had to also be circumsized. After this, comes Jacob who becomes Israel and fathers a nation through his 12 sons (and Josephs 2 sons). God then focused on this nation, making them a people set apart, different from all other nations. And why? Because He was preparing a people who would know Him and expect the arrival of His Son, the Messiah. He needed a people set apart, who didn't worship pagan gods while also worshipping Him. A people set apart who would learn his commands and love Him. Who would pray for a Messiah to come and save them, and to be able to recognize Him when He did come. Who would understand sin, and the value of a sacrifice as an atonement for sin, especially in light of the exodus (redemption) from Egypt. Of course, the Israelites did a pretty terrible job at all this, and in the end, only the tribe of Judah (and Levites to tend to the Temple duties) really passed the tests. (Though of course, they were also punished from time to time by invasions for their infidelity as well). Through all this, God always kept his covenant promises to His people, He always had a faithful remnant to carry through the tough times of infidelity. When Jesus did come, He was recognized by some of his fellow Jews (Jew, comes from the word Judah), and Jesus used these disciples of His to teach them more about the Kingdom of God and the New Covenant He was establishing for everyone. As for the Jews who did not believe in Jesus, a veil has covered their eyes until the full number of gentiles comes in. If they had all accepted Him as the Messiah, they would have never crucified Him, instead they would've made Him their King and expected Him to overthrow the Romans. That's not what Jesus came to do, so a veil had to cover their eyes and cloud their hearts so that they would not recognize Him. When those who are Jewish now begin to convert to Christianity and proclaim Jesus as the Messiah, that will be a sign that the Second Coming is near, for the veil will be lifted from their eyes. *shrug* This is really long and wordy, and most likely doesn't make any sense to you. And obviously I can't get into intricate detail about this, but this is a short synopsis of what we believe. :) But, I guess what I am trying to say is, the limitation to knowledge of God (to a relatively small group of people), and the geographical barriers are not an issue in what we believe. God is just, and judges accordingly

Most of the misunderstandings between Scripture meaning has to do with our respective faiths different beliefs of the Plan of Salvation. Your church (please correct me if I'm wrong), as I understand, believes that human history has been a series of dispensations begun by a revelation, through which God reveals himself to man. With each dispensation, there eventually was an apostasy, men fell away from Gods revelation again and again. Thus, God continued to begin new dispensations and revelations to call his children back to Him and His ways. Jesus came, died and resurrected, completing the atonement. Yet, like every dispensation, there was another falling away and apostasy. However, this time, the next dispensation didn't come until the early 19th century, with a revelation to Smith, and that this time, it would be the final dispensation before Christ's Second Coming, therefore, your church has a gaurantee from God, that this time, it can't fail. Before I continue, I want to make sure this is what you believe, and this is correct. Is it?

This is a nice idea, SpiritDragon, but a "regrouping" is not what's happened as the teachings are vastly different. :) But I do believe, that in the end, everything will be smoothed out and we can all breathe a collective sigh of relief as we go home and put this is all put behind us :) Our Father in heaven will not disappoint us and I greatly look forward to that day!

I can't answer that as I'm not God. God has a purpose for everything though, and it seems He takes us through paths which are meant to refine us, test us and teach us. I have examples but they would take too long to tell b/c there's always too much back story. But what I've learned is, if we're honest, then we should always follow wherever He leads and trust Him. He asks us only to trust Him and learn to love Him above everything, and to love everyone else as well. I'm preaching to the choir here I know

The Catholic Church is the same church as the one in Acts :) Maybe you don't see it, but I sure do, and I'm not alone! We have Apostolic authority, angels, revelations through private revelations and prophets too. I too have a testimony of my faith, and I too have seen the Holy Spirit at work through healings, gifts of tongues, prophecy, visions, discernments and all the rest of it as well. In fact, the Church's history is full of such wonderful examples of God speaking to us and leading us! It is wonderful! And I, as well, have been the recipient of some pretty amazing things, God has done great things for me and many others whom I love. That peace that only comes from God is in my soul, and it is truly breathtaking. I am not criticizing anyone on doctrinal issues, I've studied your beliefs, I own a BOM and I have lots and lots of wonderful friends and neighbors who are LDS. I've been to services, firesides, farewells, baptisms etc. I've read articles on FAIR, read through the Journal of Discourses, been to LDS.org, and if I have a question, I ask a faithful mormon friend (or just look here now, hehehe). I have a deep respect for your faith and I love being here and reading through all the questions, comments, and links, so that I can learn more about your faith. I am obviously a fish out of water here b/c I'm Catholic, and by all means, this forum is meant for members of your faith, I realize this, but if you're going to post something concerning my faith and you've got it all wrong, I will say something. I expect you would do the same if you were on a Catholic forum and someone started posting blatant anti-mormon misconceptions. You assume other people are unable to pray and seek for themselves. You know nothing about me and my journey, and with God as my witness, I have humbly sought only His Will in my life, and that is all I wish to do everyday, He is my witness in this! And this brings me comfort! He has my heart, soul and mind at all times, and there is nothing I would do if He asked me to do it, least of switch religions! If He had shown me that the truth was in your church I would have converted long ago. I would be willing to give my life for my faith in Christ, to die a death which gives Him more glory and join the other Saints who earned a martyrs crown, so don't assume I am somehow refusing to see what you see, b/c I would be persecuted or lose "status", that is an insult. I will not judge you either, what's in your heart God knows and He is our judge. However, I will say, that if the information you've provided throughout your various posts on this topic comprise your knowledge of the Catholic Church, then you didn't research very hard. It looks like you only got one side of the coin to look at, and that side is dirtied from anti-Catholic misconceptions, and actual history (which, c'mon, after 2000 years, there's gonna be stuff, I ain't gonna lie). Have you ever looked at the other side of the coin though? The other side which shows all the good the Church has done, all the holy men, women and children, the faith, love, courage, and charity that has been a light on a hill for so many people throughout the ages? God bless you spamlds, I truly hope you have a wonderful night :)

Lol! Sorry, I should've been more clear, what I meant is a church which resembles the one you now have. Temples for sealings, baptisms by proxy being actively taught and done (and no, 1 Cor 15:29 doesn't count), the teaching that God was once a human and progressed and we are also progressing to exaltation, etc. Most important to me is who God is, the very nature of God. They are completely different teachings, and as Traveler already said, it's very important to know who God is. I believe He does want us to know Him and He has revealed Himself and His nature through Jesus. And as promised, the Holy Spirit led the Apostles to a deeper understanding of God, and this understanding is the Trinity. They may not have used that word yet, however, but the Church was still in its infancy, just getting started. Jesus promised that the Advocate would guide them into all truth, and this is something that continually happens. It didn't just happen once at Pentecost and that was that. As time has gone on, so the Holy Spirit has continued to illuminate passages from Scripture and make them more clear. When you were 2 years old, were you able to articulate and speak as well as you do now? Most likely not. As a child grows and learns the language, so the Church has grown with the Advocate helping us to understand our faith and define it more clearly w/more mature language. I believe the Holy Spirit continues to lead and guide the Church, and all who honestly seek the Spirit out, regardless of which denomination you belong to. I have certaintly felt the Spirit strong within me, and I have had prayers answered, and some pretty awesome miracles occur which could only be explained as God being the author Makes my heart burn w/joy just thinking about how much God loves me, and you, and spamlds! The Priesthood authority is another topic altogether, lol! :) Blessings and the Peace of Christ to you and all your loved ones!

I don't think you need one to know about the other. A baby is loved when it is born and it learns to smile and coo and laugh. Should I be angry to the baby and abuse it so that it can really know and appreciate love? Of course not! All my children know what love is b/c my husband and I, and our extended families, friends and neighbors, give it to them, I have never hated them! Why should anyone experience hate in order to know love and joy? Do you hate your children first? Did your parents at some time hate and abuse you so that you could know love? Most likely not. From what I understand, the majority of those children who grow up in abusive homes, pick up on that behavior and do the same to their own children. They aren't more loving towards themselves and others, they're more hateful and distrustful. Adam and Eve were with God, He loved them, He created them and gave them a beautiful garden brimming with good food, and animals to know, and, I'm sure, just a plain gorgeous creation surrounding them! Clean air, soft grass, great views of the mountains, clean streams, you name it, they had it all in its original perfection and beauty! How could they not understand what love was when God so abundantly bestowed it on them?

Yep, read the Great Apostasy by Talmage. It's too bad he was unable to prove that a church, such as yours, existed during the Apostles lives. All he did, was dig up the same old skeletons which everyone else likes to dig up and parade around as "proof". That book was heavily biased and badly cited as well, many of his sources just go to well-known anti-Catholics who were unable themselves to provide reliable sources. And, thing is, that "proof" exists in the "restored" church as well, so you're really not doing yourself any favors, just different names and different times, but the same sins of greed and lust are present. What I would like to see, is proof that there was an LDS church in existance before the "hackers" came and hacked it all apart. Surely there is something, right? So back it up and then we can have a discussion. And BTW, I would be very appreciative if you could also back up your historical "facts" by checking for sources yourself, and not relying on well known anti-Catholics to do the dirty work for you. How about you read the Didache? And all the writings of the early Church Fathers so you can examine the originals for yourself? Heck, why don't you pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study what we really believe before you start posting such nonsense as honey and milk being a part of baptims which comes from military rituals (??? not sure where you got that one, you again failed to provide sources), and candles and incense came from pagan worship, which why would you consider OT Temple worship as pagan? The Israelites used both those things in the Temple! Or join a Catholic forum and ask questions so you can learn about the faith from faithful Catholics rather than anti-Catholics...kinda like what I'm doing here! I think that's much more respectable, don't you? God bless! :)

I believe that God is Love, being with Him is being with Love itself. When Adam and Eve were created, they had an awesome relationship with God and were in His presence, how could they not feel joy? Sure they have no other human emotions to compare it to, but they had God!

Gee, I wonder why Christians could possibly be offended, when you so nicely lay it out for us as evil system hackers taking over and refusing all "broadcasts" from God, exploiting innocent people, lying, deceiving, hating, and continuing by appealing to vices. That's not offensive at all... Good to know all those "hackers" were persecuted and killed in a myriad of horrific ways, such as lit on fire to provide light for the games, fed to lions, roasted alive, gutted, strangled, crucified, squished, limbs chopped off...and none would give up their faith in Jesus. They would rather die for Jesus than worship the emperor or other pagan gods. Interesting they would die for a hacked up lie. Interesting that God allowed this faith (sorry, this terrible terrible deception!!!) to spread to every tongue, nation and tribe teaching people to pray and have hope (gasp!!), open hospitals and orphanages (oh, the horror!!), begin universities (what?! Education?!? Eviiiiilll!!!!), preserve historical writings and documents from invaders (I may just pass out), compile the Scriptures into the Bible (this is just too much for me) and tons and tons of other terrible things hidden behind acts of kindness, courage, charity, love and faith. (What was Mother Theresa really doing?! And all the thousands and thousands of other Saints who "cared" and "loved" the "least of these"?! ) Interesting that God not only allowed this to spread, but let it be believed and taught that He is all-merciful and all-loving. That He allowed Satan to take over and parade around for 1800 years, that's one thousand, eight hundred years, before finally coming to our rescue and doing a lil damage control, you know, right before the Second Coming and all, when Jesus comes as the Just Judge and expects us to answer for ourselves. Intersting that He would allow for the martyrdom of millions of people who die with Jesus' name on their lips and in their heart, but who apparently died believing in the wrong God. That He would give these people hope when apparently it had been snatched away for the time being...you know...until now when a distant, distant, distant, distant, distant relative could finally find their name and baptise them by proxy. Because, you know, their faith and love for God, the atonement of Christ, wasn't good yet until they were baptised (properly) hundreds (or thousands) of years later. And silly me, I thought all we needed was Jesus! That Jesus had provided for humanity! That God and his vast love could not be overcome so fast and so easily by puny and sinful men! That Gods love was enough and He would protect us like He promised! Sorry for the sarcastic tone, it kinda snuck in there...you know, like those evil hackers! "In the world you will have trouble, but take courage, I have conquered the world" Jn. 16:33 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you" Jn. 14:18. "I [Jesus] gave them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth. I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me." Jn 17:14-21. I guess Jesus concescrating Himself for them and those who will hear them, means nothing after all. But, "Love never fails." 1 Cor. 13:8. My God, my Savior, my Redeemer, my Rock and Fortress, the Great I AM, my everything, has never failed me. God bless to you spamlds, you are now in my prayers! Please pray for me as well :)

And I've seen this argument on FAIR, and I was just as unimpressed by it as I am now. A gate does nothing, it is a passive object, which can only be acted upon by outside forces. Jesus was giving a figure of speech, not focusing on a literal gate from hell attacking the church. What he meant was the forces of hell will be unable to overcome the church he builds on Peter, b/c he builds it on a rock. See Matt 7:24-27 for Jesus' teaching about wise men who build their houses on rocks, and foolish men who build them on sand. And notice, these "keys" he gives to Peter are for binding and loosing on the earth and in heaven, nowhere does Jesus say will these "keys" affect the literal gate of hell. Where that teaching comes from, that the keys for heaven and hell are the same?, is just wierd. In ancient cities, keys were the hallmark of authority b/c the walled cities usually had one gate which could be locked for protection against hostile outside forces. Again, the gate itself does nothing on its own, it's passive. The person who received the keys of the kingdom was the trusted steward to the king. Essentially, Jesus is placing the kingdom of God, on earth, into Peters hands as the steward of the faith and building this faith on a rock...not sand. The Pope's job is defend the deposit of faith passed down from the Apostles, given to them by Christ. The Pope is the steward of the deposit of faith, he is the steward of the kingdom of God here on earth, to Christ the King. That is what is meant by the keys. Not priesthood holders can now control the gates of hell and go in and out. Wierd.

Thank you Anatess, you said exactly what I wanted to say. Take the negative and bad out of any historical context and everything looks evil. The post entirely misses all the good things the Catholic Church has done throughout history, and there's far, far more good, and holy people, in our history, then there is bad. But what else can I say? The Catholic Church is nearly 2000 years old, our history is so large, of course there are going to be some rotten eggs. It's a huge target and everyone likes to takes hits at it. I hope this is the end of this thread as well.

:) Hmmmm...should I answer by showcasing all the scandals and corruptions committed by the LDS church during it's short 184 years of existance? Because it would also be pretty long... No. I don't have the patience to try and tear apart someone else's religion, neither do I have the gall to be so rude to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. But, since it's not too late, I will correct you to the point with where I had the patience to read. Isaiah 29:10, 13 have to do with Jerusalem and how they refused to accept the prophets advice. Read a little farther to verses 17-24 in which Isaiah reveals a part of Gods plan to end pride, ignorance and injustice (Jesus will come). (verse 18-19 for example, "On that day the deaf shall hear the words of a scroll; And out of the glom and darkness, the eyes of the blind shall see. The lowly shall again find joy in the Lord, the poorest rejoice in the Holy One of Israel"). This had nothing to do with a great apostasy after the Apostles. Isaiah 60:2 "Though darkness covers the earth, and thick clouds, the peoples, upon you the Lord will dawn, and over you his glory will be seen. v.3 Nations shall walk by your light, kings by the radiance of your dawning." Not really sure why you list this verse as "proof" of a great apostasy. Amos 8:11 has to do with the apostasy of the Israelites and their punishment which came in 721 b.c. However, even then there wasn't a total and great apostasy, God always kept a faithful remnant to maintain His covenant with. Matt 24:24. Yep, there have been many false teachers and messiahs over the centuries, and they have deceived many, but not all. Acts 20:29. Indeed, savage wolves did come, in the form of false teachers putting forth heresies. However, each of these heresies was dealt with and councils convened in which the truth could be defined so as to clarify the Church's teachings. None of these heresies introduced false teaching into the Church, if you did a proper study of the history of these heresies, and what they taught, and then study what the Church actually teaches, you would know that. This verse warns us to be on guard, same as your leaders warn you to be on guard against savage wolves. Gal 1:6. Local letter to the people of this city by St. Paul. Not a total apostasy, but in Galatia in which Paul is sending them a letter to teach them to not follow false teachers or be upset by false teachers. 2 Thess 2:3. ? Not sure why this is listed, is it simply b/c it has the word apostasy? This is just a warning against a deception concerning the Second Coming. And again, it's a local letter for this city. 2 Tim 2:18; 3:5. Paul refers to two people who have deviated from the truth and taught that the resurrection has already come. Obviously, this does not constitute a great apostasy. 3:5 also does not mention that all people will become corrupt in the last days. 2 Tim 4:3-4. Yep, some people did stop following sound doctrine and began following their own desires. It's been happening throughout the ages! This does not mention that the Church will fall into a great and total apostasy. But what Paul did say in 1 Tim 3:15 is "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth." 2 Pet 2:1. Yep, more false prophets and teachers will come and many (not all) will follow their ways. Jude 1:4. Again, "some", not "all". Rev 2:2. This is to the church in Ephesus, and this is a warning to repent. Ephesus does not comprise the Church in her entirety. You know, many of these verses could also be used as a warning against your own church, so you may want to be careful with these verses, b/c none of them teach a great apostasy, but they do warn against false prophets coming along to deceive the people with different teachings. Just sayin'... I also looked at your supposed quotes by 3 Church fathers and the first two are made up as far as I can tell. Unless you can provide reliable sources for these "quotes" from Origen and Cyprian of Carthage, your credibility just diminished in my opinion. Milner lived in the 18th century and did not provide reliable sources, and all I keep getting when I search these quotes are LDS sources. Somethin' ain't right about that...so I checked the complete database for ALL known works of Origen and Cyprian of Carthage and could not find these quotes in any of their works. So if you can find them, please provide an accurate source. Your third quote comes from Eusebius and does indeed talk about how the church members (in Rome, not everywhere) were growing lax. If you continue to read past the first chapter, Eusebius details the deaths of the many martyrs of the Diocletian persecution. Ch. 13 is titled: The Bishops of the Church that Evinced by their Blood the Genuineness of the Religion which they Preached. Hmmm...so Eusebius is not describing a great apostasy after all... I'm tired. This is long and full of anti-Catholic misconceptions. You do know that the OT Temple used candles and incense right? That doesn't come from pagan rituals, it came from the original Jewish worship, as well as an altar, vestments, singing psalms, etc etc. And we don't worship saints or relics, and the spiritual gifts described in the NT have been, and are, expected and manifested? You do realize that God has never stopped working miracles among His people, right? These past 2000 years are full of miracles and prophecies, which are documented and believed in, and continue to this very day, right?? Tooooooo much.

Yes, mormons are targets of doctrinal attacks, most churches are. We (Catholics) don't really use the Athanasian Creed, the Creed which Catholics around the world proclaim in Mass is the Nicene Creed. The Apostles Creed is also used and is very similar to the Nicene Creed. In fact most scholars aren't even sure where the Athanasius creed came from and who actually wrote it. It's attributed to St. Athansius b/c he was a defender of the Trinity, and was opposed to Arianism. It's a bit wordy, but it makes sense to me :) It may seem exclusionary to you b/c you see the word "catholic". Catholic means "universal". This word represents the Catholic Church, b/c it is a universal faith, the faith that Jesus gave to the Apostles and has spread throughout the world, to every tongue and nation. Jesus meant for us to be one. One in faith, not many, diverse and ever-changing. This creed is expressing that this is the ONE faith given to us by Jesus and those who wish to believe in God, must believe in this one faith and be one with Christ. You have to keep in mind that at the time this was written, there were no other Christian churches, there were pagan temples, but there were no other Christian churches. So this creed isn't trying to declare itself the best choice of the Christian churches, or all other "competitor" Christian churches wrong, it was the only one. If you believed in Jesus Christ, that he suffered, died and was resurrected, you were Catholic. (You belonged to the one, universal faith in Jesus Christ). This was most likely written, in such wordy detail, b/c of a heresy. So, you see this creed in the context of today rather than place it in its historical context when it was originally written and for why it was written. That's why you see it as "exclusionary". Neither the Nicene Creed, nor the Apostles Creed are this "exlusionary". You are confused by the rest of the creeds b/c you don't believe, or understand, the Trinity. Which is just the way it is. You don't understand my faith very well, and I don't understand yours.

Spamlds, from my POV, the creeds don't limit God at all, or come in between my relationship with him (I am not LDS). I can't speak for those who profess the Westminster creed, but for myself and the Catholic Church, we believe that the Apostles were the end of public revelation, not private. Public revelation simply meaning that Jesus came and taught us everything we needed to know about the Kingdom of God and Salvation. However, the Church believes that, as Christ promised, the Holy Spirit has guided (and continues to guide) the Church into all Truth. "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth." John 16:12-12. "The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name-he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you." John 14:26. Therefore, we see Scripture as continually teaching us new things, a treasure that can not be exhausted. As the Church has continued to read Scripture, study it and pray about it, it has continually, throughout the centuries, provided us with new insights into our faith, illuminated by the Holy Spirit. As for private revelation, that has also continued throughout the centuries since Jesus walked the earth. God has never ceased to speak with us, however these types of revelations can't introduce a change in Scripture, or reveal something new that everyone must do in order to receive salvation. Private revelations are answers to prayers, as well as miracles, and warnings. The Church is very careful with private revelations that are meant to be proclaimed to the public, as they have to be tested first to make sure they are not a deceiving spirit. I hate to say it, but the "first vision" did not end all corruption and vice clothed in religiosity, or sweep it all away, as you so romantically envision it. As you mentioned some of the skeletons in the closet of the Catholic Church, they exist in yours as well, however I will refrain from writing any. It's far too easy for anyone to take a single example out of history and hold it up as as if it is representational of everyone and everything at all times. We are men, humans who are weak and prone to make mistakes, all the time, but it is not for us to judge others, let alone judge God and how He chose to work through us, weak though we are. This is why Christ used the parable of the wheat and weeds, he told His angels to not remove the weeds for they may disturb the wheat, therefore let them grow together and at the Second Coming, when Christ comes as the Just Judge, will the weeds and wheat be separated. I am not interested in starting an argument, just doing my best to explain my POV :) God bless!

I'm tired, but I will respond to this w/o posting an outside link to a Catholic site :)

God created us out of love, and we are made in his image and likeness b/c we have been created with reason, and we have a soul. We are his children through adoption, when Jesus came to earth and became a human, he became like one of us. He taught us about the Kingdom of God and showed us what love truly meant, by dying for us. When our first parents sinned in the garden long ago, death was introduced into the world, and there was nothing Adam and Eve could do to bridge the gap that death made through sin, because they were now fallen and sinful. No sacrifice they made would be enough to re-conquer death. However, since Jesus was sinless and perfect, He could take on our humanity and make that perfect sacrifice which would defeat death and bridge the gap between humanity and God. And since Jesus is the Son of God, and we, His brothers and sisters through our humanity, we too can now say we are the children of God. "For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"" Rom 8:15. The sacrifice of Himself is enough for all of humanity, because He is God and His sacrifice is infinite. So even though He died (and resurrected) nearly 2000 years ago, His offering of Himself covers all of humanity. I'm not sure which Christians believe the human body is evil, but Catholics do not.

Hmmmm...interesting discussion you got goin' on here...

I don't just like this, I love it. Though I would say that the source of true wealth is a solid faith in Jesus. When you have that faith, love and joy in your soul, you want to work hard and give to others generously. For me, the love of hard work is a fruit of faith. Suddenly, the "loving your neighbor as yourself" takes on a whole new meaning of what if means to truly love others and to give yourself to others w/no thoughts of recompense. And I agree that money is not really the point, it's how we use the gifts and blessings given by our Father, how are we good stewards of these gifts? Anyone can be a good steward of the gifts (time, talent, money) given to them, it's not limited to the wealthy.

Nope, that would be judging them. We can't weigh a person by his paycheck, or how mundance his job is. Perhaps while Bill is working in this vague job, he's praying, and prayer is worth so much more to the bettermant of society than his measly paycheck. Perhaps, while he's working, he's joyful in his work and when he's around, is coworkers are more joyful b/c his happiness is infectious. That would be spreading the love of Christ into the lives of his coworkers. Perhaps his "talent" is in quiet prayer and a joyful countenance, and even if that's not as far reaching as a brain surgeon or billionaire, it's worth more to those he comes in contact with everyday, and to his family. So even if Bill has a vague job, he can still thank God that he has a job and is able to provide for his family and still give to church and charity.

I don't view material wealth as a Christian obligation or as a sign of righteousness. There are many many weatlhy people who have the goods, but aren't happy, and on the flip side, there are those who don't have very much and can be deemed as "poor" who are happy and joyful with their lot in life. Rather, I think our obligation is to be good stewards of the blessings we've been given, in money, time and talent. If you are a person who has been blessed with the talent to become wealthy, than that's wonderful, thank God for the blessings He's given you and "give it back" to Him through charity, showing the love of Christ to "the least of these". Don't have much money but do have lots of free time? Rather than spend it watching tv, volunteer your free time to an organization or neighbor who could use some help. And everyone, no matter what they make for a paycheck, can be a good steward of the blessings they've been given. My husband and I try to live simply, we've definitely had our financial struggles, and I'm sure we'll have more, but we know that God will always take care of us and provide.