faith4

You believe in pre-mortal existance and that we agreed to Gods plan of salvation, which required that we come here (at least those that chose to) and progress to exaltation. According to your theology, correct me if I'm wrong please, God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply...yet, they were unable to do as he commanded. God also commanded that they do not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, otherwise the consequence would be death. But, if they did eat it, they would be able to now fulfill the first command and have children, and they would know joy. So...live forever in the garden not knowing joy (even though they knew God, who is Love) and being unable to have children, or eat the fruit and experience death but begin the plan of salvation. And all those in the pre-mortal world who did not wish to come here and experience death and sin did not have to come, but then they could never receive a body and progress to exaltation. Is this correct? So, what happens to all those spirits who don't want to experience sin and death, and therefore do not spiritually progress? Are they in some sort of heaven or do they remain forever in the spirit world (not sure what that is)? Do you believe that heaven was closed (b/c of the fall) to all the departed souls until Jesus came and opened it?

Adam was a "type of the one who was to come" (Jesus)(Rom 5:14). Do you understand what is meant by "type"? It means that Adam prefigured Jesus. Type (theology) - Definition | WordIQ.com We are all unified in the human race, through procreation, we are all of the same design and flesh (human). When Adam fell, he was no longer who he was created to be, he was no longer whole. In this instance, he could not produce "whole" children, Adam could not give his children what he no longer had to give. Once the relationship was ruptured, it could not be fixed by man, b/c he was now fallen; sinful. He did not have to be God to break the relationship, he chose disobdience even when God warned him of the consequence. Christ, as God, was the only one who could fix this rupture, but He had to do this as a human so that, as a human, in the flesh, he could break the bonds of sin through obedience. He was the only one who could redeem us, make us at-one again with God (at-one-ment, atonement).

It proves nothing of the sort. I never said you have never read the Bible, my point was that the "traditional beliefs" can be found in the Bible, if you feel that there's a "flaw" in the logic, then read the Bible. And you're right, I am not concerned by your words, b/c your judgement doesn't bother me, there is only one who judges me, and that is God. :) If you feel like I've overstepped and wrongly judged you, then please accept my sincere apology, that was never my intention. I have never insisted that God has planned to "punish" everyone, what I have said, is that we are all facing the consequences of that one sin, which is death. Through that one sin, death came to all). See previous bible quotes. Desperate to believe? I have a peace in my very heart and soul that no one can take away from me, lol, try as you might to make it seem otherwise! I assure you, I am not "desperate" to believe anything! I am very content in the love of God, I pray for peace my friend :) I understand what you mean now, but I don't believe in a pre-mortal existance, therefore I don't believe God "forced" anyone to live in the consequence of sin and death. I believe in a Just God, who is Love Itself and all-merciful. The difference in our opinions is simply different theology. I recognize the difference and I respect your beliefs, please do the same for mine. :)

The flaw in this logic is yours, my friend. God is Just, and I wholeheartedly believe this and know it to be true :) I will let St. Paul, once again, answer you: "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all...But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come. But the gift is not like the transgression. For if by that one person's transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many. And the gift is not like the result of the one person's sinning. For after one sin there was the judgment that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal. For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ. In conclusion, just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous.The law entered in so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:12-22. You see Traveler, when Adam disobeyed God, he sinned and ushered in the consequences of that sin, which is death, both spiritual and physical. Spiritually, both himself and Eve lost their supernatural life, their original relationship with God was gone, disordered through sin. Original holiness was ruptured, Adam and Eve were now in a fallen state. Can a rotten tree bear good fruit? No. Through Adam's seed, the consequences of this first sin, through their human nature passed on in the flesh. Original sin is NOT a personal sin, no other human has personally committed this sin b/c no other humans have ever been in the Garden of Eden, in perfect harmony with God where a serpent told them to eat a fruit from a tree forbidden of by God. No one else. Now, in a disordered state of being, no longer in the right relation to God, Adam is unholy, and unholy things cannot beget holy things. Agreed? Therefore, the entire human race was condemned through this one sin. I find this to be extremely clear in the scriptures. And we know this to be true, b/c Jesus saves us all by this same rule, and this, my friend, is the Justice of God. Jesus came to us, in our humanity, to condemn sin in the flesh. He took it all upon Himself and remained obedient to God, even when that obedience led to an unjust and cruel death. Where Adam was disobedient, Jesus was obedient, and therefore reversed the consequence of spiritual death (the loss of sanctifying grace, or the supernatural life). We now have the choice to be washed clean of original sin by baptism, and "put on Christ", be made new, and choose to be obedient as best we can to our Father, as Jesus did. And although we are made clean of original sin at our baptism, we still face the consequences of original sin (physical death)...at least until Jesus comes again and defeats death once and for all. And that is why we have hope!!

Yes, a belief we don't share But what does this have to do with the discussion we were having, and how is this relevant to the verse you quoted from the BOM in regards to faith coming before miracles? The verse you quoted makes it clear that a person can not receive miracles from our Father unless they have sufficient faith first, yet there are millions of people who don't have faith and receive miracles from God all the time, they just consider these miracles to be luck rather than give thanks and glory to God. And there are many instances in the bible where miracles occured before faith was shown by the person(s). So, according to what you believe, all of humanity already passed a test of faith choosing God over Lucifer? Why another test of faith then, espcially when the "test" began by our first parents listening to Lucifer and disobeying God?

What about the miracle of childbirth? Atheists give birth to babies, and although they may be amazed at how awesome our bodies are to do such a thing, they in no way credit such a miracle to God, b/c they don't believe in Him. God provides us with miracles every day, sometimes in small, hidden ways, or even large unexplainable ways, which many people who don't have faith, attribute to sheer luck. Gods love us all, even those who turn away and try to hide from Him, He still wishes to draw all souls to Himself so that they may know His love, I'm sure this is something you also believe. "First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth. For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself as ransom for all". (1 Tim 2:1-6)

And I'm a little confused by what you mean here, this kinda sounds like the principle of sola fide to me, which I didn't think your church believed in. That's why you have temple recommend interviews every few years, right? To make sure you're still following your covenants and therefore staying worthy enough to enter the temple?

Yes, I agree that faith first saved many, and through such faith, physical healings were manifested :) There are many examples of this wonderful faith in the scriptures! But there are also examples in Scripture in which a miracle occured first, it happened both ways. For example, all the cases of a person possessed by a demon, these people were not in their right mind, being tortured by the demons, they were unable to make a declaration of faith first, on their own. Sometimes a parent brought the person forth and exhibited faith in Jesus (Matt 12:22 and Mark 9:17 for example). But there are also many examples of Jesus approaching a possessed person and freeing them w/o anyone to beseech Him on the their behalf (Mark 5:1-20). There are also numerous examples of other types of miracles that were not physical healings which occured before faith, such as the woman brought before the men to be stoned for adultery, and the man w/the withered hand. Jesus performed many miracles, many which are documented in the Scriptures, not all were physical healings. But the purpose of all of these miracles was to manifest the glory of God and to fulfill the prophecies that he would come among them to heal (both phsyically and spiritually) (Ps 107:20; Ps 34:19). What the Apostles teach in Acts and the remaining letters are simply that now we know Jesus is the Messiah, and the Good News is Jesus Himself and what He has done for us in light of his crucifixion and resurrection. We have to now profess our faith in the good news and come to Jesus, b/c He is the way, the truth and the life, we must put our faith in Jesus to be made new and have life within us. But although he healed many physically, their "challenge" was not taken away from them, they still had the rest of their lives to live. They could take what Jesus did for them to their heart and truly believe He was the Messiah, and then choose to live in obedience, humility and love, and follow Jesus' example and teachings. Or they could hear the good news and still turn away from Jesus b/c they cannot overcome their desires, such as what is warned in Matt 24:10 and 2 Tim 4:4. Even St. Paul, who had a tremendous miracle occur to Him, while out to persecute the first Christians (zero faith in Jesus at that time), taught that he dared not even judge himself until his death: "Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." (1 Cor 9:26-27). "It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I am no conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgement before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God." (1 Cor 4:3-5). Thank you for your continuing time and your questions and comments! Blessings to you friend :)

Yes I know! I'm not disagreeing w/anyone either, lol, all of you are very much entitled to whether or not you want to share sacred and special experiences! :) In my own small way, I believe that sometimes we're called to share experiences w/complete strangers, as the Spirit promts, b/c you never know which kind word can help someone in their day, or help them w/a personal, silent struggle. A few months ago, I heard on the radio that many people who considered suicide decided against it when a stranger smiled at them just in passing, it made them feel more loved, like someone cared. And there have been many times in my own experiences, where God gave me signal graces (outward sign or word, helping me figure out a prayer request) through other people w/o them even being aware of it :) God works in beautiful and mysterious ways...and yes, even on internet forums w/complete strangers

No, that's not what I said or what I meant. In those days, in that culture, anyone w/a disability or disease was an outcast, considered unclean and worthless to society. Jesus went to them to show them, and all his followers, the mercy and love of God, which is bestowed on all mankind, including the ones w/disabilities. Jesus was teaching his Apostles and followers that God loves all, that we are all part of the human family and should all be treated w/dignity and respect. And He was also displayng the glory and power of God so that they might believe who He was. Jesus has come the first time as the merciful saviour, to teach us how to love one another and obey our Father in everything. He will come again as the just judge and do away with death once and for all, and everyone will be subjected to a final judgement. But for now, our souls are judged at death.

I don't understand what you mean about the flesh changing from the original, I underlined what I didn't udnerstand. Can you please provide me w/the sources for this teaching so I can look it up? Thank you! And what do you mean that Christ can take away the "challenge" if he sees we have enough faith to pass the "test"? Do you mean while the person is still alive? Do you believe that the persons He healed in the Gospels were completely and totally healed physically and spiritually for the rest of their lives? Our bodies, although created from dust, are a part of who we are as a created person in unity with our soul, we treasure our bodies because they are God's work! "You formed my inmost being; you knit me in my mother's womb. I praise you, because I am wonderfully made; wonderful are your works!...How precious to me are your designs, O God; how vast the sum of them!" (Ps 139:13-14;17). Our bodies are meant for immortality, but through sin and death were made mortal, Jesus will end death once and for all at His Second Coming and renew all creation. We are meant to be eternal, "The dignity of the human person is rooted in his creation in the image and likeness of God". The test we face is obedience to God through our own free will, obedience to His Word, with love in our heart, soul and mind. Our test is to follow Christ, to remain humble, and to love the good things our Creator has given to us freely out of His great love for us. Our test is to pick up our cross, whatever it may be, and follow Him, even if it leads to death. We are indeed dual beings, spiritual and physical. When Adam and Eve sinned death entered the world, and this death affects us in our entirety, both body and soul. "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all" (Rom 5:12). This first sin ruptured the relationship between our first parents and God, both phsyically and spiritually, and affected us all. Jesus, the Word of God, came to us in the flesh so that he could make a perfect offering of Himself to God in restitution for our sins, humanity could no longer make a perfect offering to God b/c we're fallen, Jesus came so that we might have life. In Him, death was conquered, and that is our hope, that we too, by being baptized into Christ, may die to this world and be raised again to new life. It is still our choice. God bless!

:) I do not have much time as I'm expecting guests right now, but real fast I'll answer this question. Jesus didn't change them b/c he felt they were unclean, He did so that the Apostles and followers could see for themselves that He indeed was the Messiah. So that that they would know that He did have power given to Him by God. We both know the story of the sick man who was let down through the roof for healing, but Jesus didn't heal him physically first. He forgave the mans sins, which led to disbelief and shock among the people there b/c only God could forgive sins, who did this man think he was anyway?! So that they all knew that He had the power to forgive sins, he then healed the man and had him stand and walk away with his mat. But, more on this all later, my guests are here!!!! Good questions and God bless!!!

:) Like I said in my first post, I've had several, and I briefly touched on two that held great significance for me, yet I won't be able to fully share everything I've experienced throughout the years and how their meanings have touched me and moved me. Spiritual experiences are sacred, and most people close to me don't even know what I've shared here on my first post. Not even my husband knows all that has happened, and all the things I have felt, heard and "known"!!! But that doesn't mean we should keep every experience private, it is important to share what we think is appropriate to one another, with those faith-filled people who are willing to receive such experiences with grace, and through special shared experiences, help one another build on our faith and fully realize just how blessed we truly are. Many of my friends have their own experiences, I don't ask them about them, if they choose to share then we both feel the spirit and it's wonderful to have that confirmation in our hearts and souls. There are so many great Saints who had some truly jaw-dropping spiritual experiences and only shared them b/c they were asked to do so by their superior. I LOVE to read their writings, and their great witness helps me to stay on the path to God, and desire His Holy Word. God bless you all!!

I've got several, though it would take a book to describe how all the instances are interwoven w/each other and how they have brought me to where I am now :) One of my favorites is when I first laid eyes on my husband and the moment I saw him, a voice told me that he was the one to whom I would marry. Yeah, an actual, literal voice, spoken "internally" (I'm not really sure how to describe it since it's very hard to describe how I heard it). God has truly guided me in some of the most remarkable ways for most of my life, the first time I remember a distinct calling was when I was about 12 years old. But my absolute favorite was when I was given the greatest grace of all, to be in the presence of Jesus, and to actually FEEL Him with me, and He was focused on ME! Absolutely amazing, the love I felt was far greater than anything I have ever experienced. It only lasted for maybe a minute or two, but it was more than enough, I know God exists and that what we have waiting for us after this life is far greater than we could possibly imagine. His love was so great, it felt as though waves were washing over me...very hard to describe! All I could do was just cry in utter amazement at the blessing I was given. Seriously, I was on my knees just sobbing, it was so overwhelming. We all know we are loved, but it's something else entirely when the King of kings and Lord of lords personally lets you know just how much you're loved. Someday, I will feel that love again and it will be for eternity!!

We believe the body and soul, both natures, make up the person. I am a unique individual, out of the billions of people before me, with me now, and still to be born, none will be exactly like me. Our natures are united so closely together, that even after physical death separates us from our souls, we will be reunited to our bodies in the final resurrection, when Jesus comes as the Just Judge and defeats death and sin definitevly (not sure if I spelled that right). When we sin, our choice in the flesh (which also constitutes the mind) damages our soul as well, by rupturing our relationship with God. The more we sin, the more we push ourselves away from God sprititually, God doesn't move away from us, we move away from Him by our actions. Everyone, including those with disabilities, are made in the image and likeness of God, and as such, are precious and irreplaceable, completely unique in who they are. In Jesus' day and time, those w/disabilities were considered unclean and were cast out from society. Jesus came to them, and showed them just how loved they were and sought to heal them, both physically and spiritually. He taught His followers that even those who were considered "unclean" were not suffering b/c of their parents, and that they too had a special place prepared for them in God's redemptive plan. They too are persons with a right to life, dignity, and to know love, mercy, compassion, and kindness. And as unique persons, they too have a right to the sacraments, as far as their intelligence and ability allows, but baptism is never denied to any person even those w/disabilities :)

And no, Jesus was not affected by Original Sin, hence the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. The angel Gabriel greets her as "full of grace" and Pope Pius IX states, "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin".

Seminarysnoozer, you are oh SO close to saying the same thing Traveler is. You quote St. Paul in Romans yet completely fail to see what he meant. You pick up on the dual nature of man, he is comprised of both a physical, and spiritual nature. These two natures are constantly at war with each other, for the soul longs to turn to God, yet the body, the flesh, is constantly tempted to sin. The nature of our flesh to sin, is Original Sin. Children are born in this fallen nature, a fallen state of righteousness. They don't have any personal sins against them b/c they are too young to understand sin. Yet, those same children will grow to face the same battles in their nature as we all face, b/c they were born in a fallen state of nature. Their what they are is affected by Original Sin, not their who they are. They will not grow up never committing a single sin and, already being made completely righteous and therefore w/o a need for Christ's sanctifying grace. We are ALL in need of Christs atonement. Baptism of infants washes away the stain of Original Sin, and clothes the child in the light of Christ, they are made new in Christ. As a Catholic mother, all 4 of my children were baptized as babies, my husband and I were blessed with these children, they are a gift given to us by God, and as their parents, the stewards of these precious gifts, we made a promise to God to raise them in the love and truth of God, to be faithful and obedient to the Word of God. When they come to the age of reason, they will then receive the sacrament of confirmation as well as their first communion. The Catholic Church recognizes two other forms of baptism as well, baptism by desire and batism by blood. By desire means, the person ardently wishes to be baptized and made new in Christ but dies before they have that opportunity. Baptism by blood means the person believes in Christ and is martyred defending the Truth.

Knowledge, in and of itself, is not Original Sin. Original Sin came about through the action of disobedience. God created us and endowed us with supernatural gifts, and a life which reflected a oneness with Him, we were made in perfection, with original holiness and justice as a very part of our nature, who we are as a race. God also gave us free will (agency) so that we could freely choose to love God in return. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was the one limitation that was placed before our first parents, the one temptation that they could freely choose to overcome because God, our Creator and Father, told them not to eat of it b/c to do so would bring death. So yes, the fruit looked pleasing to the eye and good for food, but they were instructed to not partake of it, and yet they did anyway, and through this first act of disobedience, by rejecting Gods goodness and trust in Him, sin and death entered the world as the consequence. "God made not death, neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living" (Wis 1:13). "The man who commits sin violates order: sin of its nature is disorder" (1 Jn 3:4) "Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin." (Rom 7:25) In our nature, as humans, we are bound up in this first act of disobedience, "a multitude, through one man's disobedience, became guilty" (Rom 5:19). As I stated earlier from the catechism, Original sin is not in us as personal sin, but in us through our very nature as humans propagated through Adam's seed. And it is precisely through this unity of our human nature that Jesus was able free us from the slavery of sin. St. Paul tells us, "For after one sin there was the judgement that brought condemnation; but the gift, after many transgressions, brought acquittal. For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ" (Rom 5:16-17). "For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous" (Rom 5:19) The same unity of the human race by which we received the effects of Adam's defeat to sin, enables us to receive the fruits of Christ's victory. As for your other questions, no, I do not believe anything is missing from scripture. No details are lacking, the author(s) of Genesis, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, gave us precisely all we need to understand why we struggle in this life with our very selves, why we battle to overcome sin in our very nature. The Catholic Church does not require us to believe that Genesis is a literal, historical narrative. Rather, we see it as a story meant to portray a truth about us, our first parents and God. "Among all Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation" (CCC 289). There are many wonderful books which delve into Genesis and the mysteries and truths found within, that can explain all of this better than I can. I recommend Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed, and A Father Who Keeps His Promises by Scott Hahn. I don't believe God "planned" for the Fall, to me this idea of God "planning" for us to Fall reduces our free will to mere lip service. To give Adam and Eve an ultimatum (either you Fall through disobedience to know joy, have children and begin the plan of salvation, or you obey my command and live forever without joy or children) would be to coerce our first parents to sin and allow death to reign in the world. But I do believe that God knew we would Fall. God is all-knowing (Psalm 139 1-16; Heb 4:13) and loving and merciful. He knew we would fall into sin and He knew how He would fix the rupture made by sin for "We know that all things work for good for those who love God" (Rom 8:28). Neither do I believe that God had a "Plan A" that failed so he had to implement a "Plan B". I believe that God loves us, and he gave us free will so that we could freely choose to love Him in return. God allows us to be tempted, so that we could grow in strength and love, and freely turn to God for His help and peace. He has told us what the consequences of our actions will be, now it is up to us to choose. I choose Love. :)

Yes, I do as well :) Though not a feeling towards a calling to a position (I'm not LDS), but a feeling of direction I guess. God has guided me in the most amazing ways throughout my life!!

Well, there is no forgetting what happened. What happened, happened, and it hurt you, putting up a wall to try and block it out and pretend it happened might make it worse. To forgive means to let go, and realize that we can't judge anyone else for their behavior and actions. There is only one judge, and that is God Himself, He is the Just Judge and He alone knows what is truly in our hearts and minds and why we do and say the things we do. I know it's hard, forgiveness is extremely difficult, but we have the perfect example to emulate, Jesus. He forgave his tormentors while they tortured him and put him through a brutal and humiliating death, He loves us so much and He allowed that love from God to carry Him through. And keep in mind, anger and revenge don't come from God, God is love alone. Forgiveness doesn't come right away, it takes work and patience. When it becomes difficult, stop and pray for protection and Christ's peace to surround you. Remember that you are loved by God and so is your husband, we are all children of God and He loves us always. Good luck, I will pray for you :)

We call this Original Sin. "Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all" Rom 5:12 "For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous." Rom 5:19 From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam...By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice...But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense; it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed"-a state and not an act." (CCC 404). "Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it; subject to ignorance, suffering, and the dominion of death; and inclined to sin...Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God" (CCC 405). St. Paul comments, "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold into slavery of sin. What I do, I do not understand...So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that good does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh." Rom 7:14;15;17. Jesus has come to set us free from this slavery, to bring us back to God where we belong. Through Baptism we are made new, we (all Christians of course) choose to follow Christ and his example of love, obedience and humility. And now, we look forward w/joy and eager anticipation to His glorioius Second Coming, through which he will definitevly defeat death once and for all. Maranatha!! :)

I will keep your mother and family in my prayers, God bless Traveler

Traveler, thank you as well for your insights! :) Our Churchs respective teachings in this regard are very different. I cannot answer your points as well as a good book can, so I will just recommend two books for you if you're interested in making sense of the theology surrounding traditional teachings of Adam and Eve. The first is "A Father who Keeps his Promises (Gods Covenant Love in Scripture)" by Scott Hahn and the second is "Theology and Sanity" by Frank Sheed. The question for me is not, what is knowledge of good and evil, it's why did God command them to not eat that fruit, and, to be fruitful and multiply when both commands were kind of useless. A transgression needed to happen for the fall and progression etc., and Adam and Eve coudn't have children. They transgressed, were punished, and could now have children when they were unable to before. I don't believe satan outsmarted God in the garden either, there was, and is, no inferior plan B. And I don't believe God loves ignorance either, he gave us a brain and the ability to seek and know and to learn from our experiences, which is what we do every day of our life. God is just and His ways are perfect! We're on the same page! :) Peace Traveler :)

:) I agree that God does teach us little by little as well. This teaching in particular, unique to your church, is just confusing to me since it seems contradictory, and God is not a God of confusion, but of peace, and we can trust His word to lead us. As far as how the Catholic Church teaches this subject, I am not confused, it does make sense to me. :) Thank you for your time and answers!!

Our theology doesn't differ in respect to the tree or fruit itself. The fruit wasn't poisonous, so it's not the fruit in itself that's bad. And the action of eating fruit off a tree isn't what's bad, but it's the action of disobeying, which is the transgression. You would scold your 6 year old b/c it is not safe for him to light a fire w/matches, the actual action of him lighting the fire would get him in trouble, not the mere thought of lighting the fire. So the fire isn't inherently good or bad, we agree, but in the circumstances given by the adult, it can matter b/c you don't want your child to burn himself through disobedience. So, yes, I think we do agree on this point, however, the disobedience is in the action of being disobedient. Adam and Eve may have looked at the fruit on the forbidden tree and thought to themselves how good it looked, but did not eat it. They did not sin by thinking of the fruit, their actions of abstaining from the fruit is obedience, the action of eating the fruit is disobedience. And wasn't satan right in telling Eve God was withholding information from her? She was taught in her pre-earth life about the plan, but had forgotten it. As a human now, God told her not to eat that fruit or it would introduce death. Did He remind her that if she ate the fruit she could progress and have children? If not, then that's unjustly withholding information from her, but if He did, then that would be something in the JST that's not in my bible