onethatislazy
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Posts posted by onethatislazy
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Faith can not be based on anything but truth. When its based on lies it will invariably be shaken eventually. Than all it will take is the truth to shake ones foundation when its preached unto them or it will cause one to anger after those who preach it.
Truth can be things uncomfortable. Things that don't make one "feel good". I remember a time when someone didn't want to share something with a new member because it was "uncomfortable" or didn't want to push them away. You don't increase faith when you do that you hinder it. You don't increase faith by "hiding" or "leaving out" correct things. As one said it must be tested. -
My favorite lecture series by hugh nibley (ok one of many)...
https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/issues/080.pdfStarts on page 10.
Subject is priesthood.
Who can deny such a power to another? No man. Who can bestow it on another? No man. We like to think that the Church is divided into those who have it and those who don’t have it; but it is the purest folly to assume that we can tell who has it and who does not. God alone knows who is righteous and how righteous; yet "the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven," and those "cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principle of righteousness" (D&C 121:35). The result is that if there is anyone who really holds the priesthood, no one is in a position to say who it is--only by the power to command the spirits and the elements is such a gift apparent. But as far as commanding or directing other people, there every man must decide for himself. -Hugh Nibley -
Simple. Do what Joseph did.
Have a connection with God
James 1:5
His first vision story should be YOUR STORY!
That is pure religion. Unadulterated.
Obedience only to the Holy Ghost for that is the doctrine of Christ.
Lehi rises up, Nephi, enos, jacob, this is the message of the book of mormon. To come up into the presence of God, while in the flesh, and learn all things. But first you must desire it, ask, and than in patience wait for the Lord to do what is required for YOU to receive it. It may be your death bed when you receive those things but you first must ask/desire it for the Lord to set things up.
" 1 For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly highmountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot." (1 Nephi 11)The reason the creeds of other religions were corrupted was because they prevented this.
“I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further’ [Job 38:11]; which I cannot subscribe to.”7(https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-22?lang=eng)
Etrading nailed it with this "We have a disconnect between what God said and Means... and what we think/presume/add to what he says and means."... I will say with certainty I asked for something from God and asked for it as a sign that 3 things were true. Turns out 2 years later I found out that 2 of those 3 things were false. I didn't get it as a sign the 3 things were true but instead because I asked for something and it was given. We do this when we say If A Is true than B-Z is true. When it may only be B & X and Z the rest being false.Maybe a better way to say it is We think B = A when really B = C. So we get a witness B is true thinking it equals A when really God only gave us the witness because we asked if B was true though in Gods understanding B equaled C. And He will allow us to follow false precepts.Those who come up into the presence of God, to commune with an inumerable company of angels, to have ascended to mount zion (See D&C 76) or as Nephi put it to be caught away into "an exceedingly high mountain" are those who are connected to the "true and living vine"... Baptism only opens the gate, you must climb the ladder.
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God by definition is both male and female.
If you want to be Like Him. You must consist of a male and female, in his image. They are one.
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Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden into the telestial world. We are informed in similar language in the endowment "or the world which ye now live"... Interesting thought there. Brigham Young went as far to say YOU are living in ETERNITY NOW. And we are. The lords work continues "worlds without end". His work never changes (Moses 1:39). But the glory thereof is only withheld because...
Read the next two verses in Section 76.Telestial:
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
Vision of Glory
115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;
116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;
117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;
118 That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.
119 And to God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Joseph taught the following.
When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. - King Follet, Ensign 1971Two points here. Great work...
1) Beyond the veil
2) Beyond the grave ("even beyond the grave")
Do not equate veil with death. But rather with "rending the veil of unbelief" as ether calls it HERE AND NOW. If you don't do that. Than you will be found wanting, and your work beyond the grave will be greater. It takes time. It takes experience. There is no other way. God is in much less of a hurry than we are. But we see things in "time" and all things are before him continually. Past, future, and present.
You have got to learn to be Gods like those who have gone before you.
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"Preparatory redemption" refers to the type of work they were called to as in the second verse of that chapter; " 2 And those priests were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption."
Bruce R. McConkie said about this preparatory redemption; "'They could preach redemption; they could foretell its coming; but their work was preparatory only. Redemption itself would come through the ministry of Him of whom they were but types and shadows." Like John the Baptist, the work one is forordained to do within the priesthood is preparatory for the redemption Christ brings.
I disagree. That is not what Alma 13 says. "prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works".
I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, "Abba, Father!" Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for. (1)(Found in TPJS, and the places below)
- ↑ Bullock report of Sermon in the Grove, 16 June 1844. Available in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of Joseph Smith, 2nd Edition, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1996), 378–381.
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Almost every person has had a different answer. Thought id point that out.
Yup.
Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage. (TPJS, Joseph Smith)He may have messed up but he never did attain to the fullness of the priesthood.
Fulness of the priesthood (By God’s voice not by descent of man) TPJS, sec. 6, pp. 322–23.Melchezidek priesthood (Through the lineage of our fathers)Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood (preparatory gospel)If you want to use the LDS definition of salvation we are ALL saved. But he was not exalted. (See D&C 132)There are three grand orders of priesthood
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843B 44, p.323
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Read Alma 13. Pay attention to the word "preparatory redemption". Ask how they were foreordained. How did they receive a preparatory redemption? How can you be redeemed? What does it mean to be redeemed? How did they show exceedingly great faith?
As to the other question, YOU VOLUNTEER. ALWAYS. Agency demands it. Its always your choice. But God will not choose those who are not proven in all things.
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Forgot to add the comments on the Uniform section befor eI posted it.
uniforms
Earl Jay Glade, a Melchizedek Priesthood holder and a leader over thedeacons of the Highland Park Ward, first introduced the “white shirt-blacktie system” at a priesthood convention in Salt Lake City. 15 According to Glade,uniforms were not “just any old shirt, any old sweater, [or] any old coat,” butrather identical white shirts and bow ties; he felt they were the solution for“building morale in deacon’s quorum work.” 16 The idea of uniforms was receivedenthusiastically by other deacons quorum leaders and spread until a number oflocal ward units adopted their own uniform dress code for young men passing thesacrament. 17Although uniforms varied from ward to ward, bow ties became a distinc-tive characteristic of deacons quorums in the 1930s. Why bow ties? According to Earl Jay Glade, matching bow ties would “do more to build morale and pride inorganization-membership, than a 10,000 word lecture.” 18Studies in organizational behavior confirm the effect of uniforms. First, uni-forms “elicit psychological processes that inspire compliance.” 19 Thus, those whowear “organizationally designated attire are psychologically in a position of havingcomplied with one organizational standard. Such employees can maintain cogni-tive consistency by fulfilling other organizational expectations.” 20 In other words,uniforms act as “situational cues” that de-individuate employees, bringing themto focus on, and fulfill, assignments related to the uniform. The individual oftenforgets personal preferences and concentrates on the job at hand when requiredto dress for work. “Once you put on that uniform . . . then you are certainly not thesame person. You really become that role.” 21...And you can access the link to read more.- Blackmarch and Backroads
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This thread reminds me of this article. Good read.
Formalism in the Sacrament.
http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1021&context=imwjournal
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Suzie I agree. We are told to use persuasion, long-suffering, etc..
I have seen way to much of it to think otherwise with close friends.If she's going to claim that due to a unique revelation she has more insight into the mind of God than the First Presidency and the Q12 do, then she'd better be ready to demonstrate that her righteousness is on a par with theirs.
Sorry but church office means nothing about ones spiritual state. The qualification is the same to receive the manifestations of the spirit. This LDS belief I believe is very dangerous.
- God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them...
- Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 150-151
"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." - (Brigham Young, JD 1:312, Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853,) - God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them...
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6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; (D&C 88:6)
Descent Before Ascent. As shown in the very ordinance of baptism, one must descend below the water before he can ascend up again as a new creature. The whole purpose of mortality gives us an opportunity to descend from God, in hopes to ascend to something greater. Eternal Life.
This idea is taught throughout scripture.
- A fanciful and flowery and heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out. Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God.
-Joseph Fielding Smith (editor), Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 137
What did he mean by this? Why must you contemplate the darkest abyss to have your mind reach the utmost heaven? To commune with God? This was Seen at age 14.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. (JSH)
This was seen when he received the fulness of the Father and the Son.
19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and theglory of the Lord shone round about.
20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of theFather, and received of his fulness;
...
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—
45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;
46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;
47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;(D&C 76)
Light and Darkness. To comprehend the Light we must contemplate the Darkness.
Avraham Gileadi in Isaiah Decoded talks about this a lot.
Becoming like God, then, doesn’t consist so much of adopting new ideas but of
discarding old ones that narrow our view of life and make us prisoners of prejudice. Each timewe complete a new cycle of descent before ascent, passing through the refiner’s fire, we peel offanother layer, like a serpent shedding its skin or like a fruit whose outside hides its innersweetness. Healing thus consists largely of unlayering, unbinding the “bands of iniquity,” givingthe inner child of God a new lease on life. Each rebirth on a higher level is like an awakeningfrom sleep to a deeper awareness. As we ascend, we become a new manifestation of the divinealready living within us—a true son or daughter of God. (pg 80, digital copy)The earth’s seasonal changes—its “death” in winter and revival in summer—testify oflife’s cyclical pattern. Isaiah often uses imagery from nature. Those whom the servant empowers,for example, he calls the “oaks of righteousness.” (Isaiah 61:3; emphasis added.) However, anoak tree loses its leaves in the fall and sprouts new ones in the spring as it grows in stature.It goes through descent before ascent. Its “humiliation,” as it loses the leafy glory it had gained,precedes its “exaltation,” as it grows even mightier than before (see Figure 58). A cyclicalpattern in our physical lives, too, is a type of our spiritual lives, as when we become ill butrecover, stronger and more immune than before. ...Persons in an ascending mode are less likely to be critical of others when they seemisfortunes occurring to them than will those who are in a descending mode. Job’s companionswere convinced Job was guilty of transgression when they saw the evils that befell him, whichwere common covenant curses. But Job was blameless of the things of which they accused him.In fact, Job was a type of the world’s future Messiah, and of all who suffer innocently as part of adescent before ascent, passing through “ruin” before “rebirth,” “suffering” before “salvation,”“humiliation” before “exaltation,” and so forth. Thus, God “blessed the latter end of Job morethan his beginning” (see Figure 59). (Job 42:12.) (pg 84-85)In the light of Isaiah’s theology, the grail cup commemorates the suffering Savior, who
pays the price of justice for those who repent of their sins. He drinks the cup of the wrath of Godin their stead, paying with his blood to secure their “salvation” (see Chapter 8). For all who act asproxy saviors, drinking from this cup follows the pattern of Israel’s God. It is an integral part oftheir descent before ascent, called by Jesus a new “baptism.” (Matthew 20:22–23.) Those whothus serve God by serving others are reborn on the highest levels of the ladder, receiving God’spromise of immortality and eternal life. Those who become seraphs may, like Enoch and Elijah,assume immortality even on earth. (pg 145)A type of such a “descent before ascent”
was Jacob, ancestor of the nation of Israel, who fled to Haran to escape the wrath of Esau, butwho returned in glory to the Promised Land. (147)There are many examples of descents before ascents in the book of Mormon.
One is King Lamoni (Alma 18-19)
41 And he began to cry unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, have mercy; according to thy abundant mercy which thou hast had upon the people of Nephi, have upon me, and my people.
42 And now, when he had said this, he fell unto the earth, as if he were dead....
6 Now, this was what Ammon desired, for he knew that king Lamoni was under the power of God; he knew that the dark veil ofunbelief was being cast away from his mind, and the light which did light up his mind, which was the light of the glory of God, which was a marvelous light of his goodness—yea, this light had infused such joy into his soul, the cloud of darkness having been dispelled, and that the light of everlasting life was lit up in his soul, yea, he knew that this had overcome his natural frame, and he was carried away in God—
Abraham had three major trials or descents. His self, wife, and son. Abraham on the altar about to be killed by the priest of Elkanah, Sarah about to be raped by Pharaoh, and Abraham about to kill Isaac. All which were promises to him, which in the end he was asked to sacrifice. He was promised an endless posterity through issac but later asked to sacrifice that promise. Al things were eventually returned unto him for righteousness.
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You're going to have to back that one up. It's a nice slogan, but I'm having a hard time with it being "doctrine".
Yes.
No.Narrow.
Bruce R. McConkie:
"Eternal life is life in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is exaltation; it is the name of the kind of life God lives. It consists of a continuation of the family unit in eternity. We have quoted scriptures saying that children will be saved in the celestial kingdom, but now face the further query as to whether this includes the greatest of all the gifts of God—the gift of eternal life. And in the providences of Him who is infinitely wise, the answer is in the affirmative. Salvation means eternal life; the two terms are synonymous; they mean exactly the same thing. Joseph Smith said, “Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.” (Lectures on Faith, pp. 63–67.) We have come to speak of this salvation as exaltation—which it is—but all of the scriptures in all of the standard works call it salvation. I know of only three passages in all our scriptures which use salvation to mean something other and less than exaltation."
The way I have come to think of it is this. It's fairly straight-forward. There is only one complete salvation. All other forms of salvation are only partial salvation. We can be "partially" saved without being fully saved. There is only one full salvation. That is exaltation. That is why "salvation" is synonymous with "exaltation". If we do not reach exaltation, we are not fully saved...and therefore, not actually "saved" saved. Any other reference to salvation beyond it's full meaning required conditional adjectives or explanations. Yes, we can talk about salvation from death, salvation from perdition, etc., etc. But when we talk general terms of "salvation" in the church, we mean exaltation.
Clearly there are exceptions to this. Hence I use the term "general".
Ok I think some of it semantics/context where I was using words differently.
If you trust Joseph got it right that we go from "exaltation to exaltation" or as woodruff put it "probation to probation" (I may have got the person wrong on this quote) than it would seem plausible that there is Total Salvation , and partial salvation (even in the Celestial Kingdom).
(“Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else.” (Lectures on Faith, pp. 63–67.) )
Exactly. And How did Jesus obtain this Glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion? I would equate Salvation in this context with Eternal Life and Exaltation. Though there are different levels of exaltation. Or as Jacob put it, Jacobs Ladder (with 7 rungs, See the Orson Hyde Diagram). Which Joseph quoted on occasion. These are the Powers of Heaven.
Notice D&C 93:
12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;
13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued fromgrace to grace, until he received a fulness;14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.
We won't either. It may be promised upon us in the hereafter, but we still must remain faithful for Joseph said we will have a great work even beyond the grave to obtain our exaltation.
As for the descent/ascent concept let me look into it, I have never put it into words myself. I know Avraham Gileadi talks about it a lot. Its shown in the book of Mormon over and over. The Ascension of Isaiah (an apocrpha text) talks about it too a bit. I may do this in a new thread. Maybe I can just find where Avraham explains it. I am lazy.
I think I have deviated from the OP. I am merely trying to define what is the difference between a Saved being, and degrees of a saved being. For we cannot arrive there in an instant. All things in degrees.
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Seems the amount of excommunications/people leaving the church have grown exponentially the last year or two.
Two more:
John Dehlin (Creator of the CES Letter, which discounts the origins of the restoration)
Kate Kelly (Founder of Ordain the Women)
Disciplinary actions are typically initiated by local bishops and church authorities, but Ms. Kelly and Mr. Dehlin were notified of the action against them on two consecutive days, leading them to suspect that the move was coordinated by officials in church headquarters in Salt Lake City. -
The bolded above is where you err. And this is where we all rub against the Faith vs. Works debate. Obviously, mortality is not the only place where we work. If it was, then there wouldn't be a need for vicarious ordinances. Faith and work are indelible parts of Eternal Progression.
Mortality is very needful, otherwise, what's the purpose of the Plan of Salvation? We each must enter mortality. To act and/or be acted upon. But, this is not the only place that we are to exercise faith and act upon it. Nor is it the FIRST place where we exercised faith and acted upon it.
I agree its not the only place we do work. It was a rhetorical question. If you believe children become exalted by bypassing "this" probation it is not needful for them. Than whatever work they did before allowed them to bypass this probation (or they were sent to prove others), thus we could have done the same. So how did it happen? What was the difference between them and us? Why did others choose to descend, God? Isaiah? and other "Great and nobles"? What is the condensation of God?
There is the scriptures "if they were permitted to tarry" and would have received it. Its interesting how God works.
My point is this doctrine right here.
You cannot ascend to something without descending first. The greater the descent the greater the ascent. And Yes one of these descents goes through death. But only one overcame it, Jesus Christ.
Look at this quote.
The scriptures are a mixture of very strange doctrines to the Christian world, who are blindly led by the blind. I will refer to another scripture. "Now," says God, when He visited Moses in the bush, (Moses was a stammering sort of a boy like me) God said, "Thou shalt be a God unto the children of Israel." God said, "Thou shalt be a God unto Aaron, and he shall be thy spokesman." I believe those Gods that God reveals as Gods to be sons of God, and all can cry, "Abba, Father!" Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods, even from before the foundation of the world, and are the only Gods I have a reverence for.
Who are the God's that exalted themselves before the foundation of the world? How do we become exalted? Why did Joseph ONLY revere THESE God's that were revealed to be God's? Why bring up Moses on this? How does one become a Sons of God?
Doesn't the Endowment show us the path for exaltation? Are there multiple paths to become exalted? Is the path wide? Or is it narrow?
The real question I see here in this thread is this.
What does it mean to be SAVED? Does it include Exaltation? While I believe they are not exalted I do believe they can eventually get there, through the laws ordained to do so. I am not saying they will be denied these blessings. Are the angels in the CK also considered saved beings? Are not all Celestial Beings "just men made perfect"? Even the angels?
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Teachers do not administer the sacrament. They set it up so the Priests can. The work Teachers do is not a priesthood ordinance, and yes, theoretically, anyone could do it.
Thanks all. Makes sense. I think you are right here.
Why don't we have the Elders do it?
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Just FYI, the combined KFD is not entirely reliable. Some of the things taught therein are currently taught by the church and clearly doctrinal. Some of the things are not. The various reports differ. The day was windy and it was difficult for all to hear. It is a very interesting read, but you'll come across a few ideas that will likely make you think, "What on earth?" :)
its posted in the Ensign and quoted in Conference and in the TPJS, so it must be doctrine
The KFD is one of my favorite lectures.
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"BUT NEITHER TEACHERS NOR DEACONS HAVE AUTHORITY TO baptize, ADMINISTER THE SACRAMENT, or lay on hands;" (D&C 20:58)Reading D&C 20 the other day. So I ask why do they administer the sacrament? If they are not ministering the sacrament, than that must mean anyone can do it. If they are, why do we do it?
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"Cannot be saved in ignorance"... ignorance of what? Saved without the Law? Yet those who pass before the age of 8 are saved in ignorance, right? (And I'm talking about ALL children... because they are before the age of accountability. Yes, we also read about those born in the Kingdom and if they are not taught by the age of eight, the sin is upon the heads of the parents.)
That's where GRACE applies... to help make up the difference with our finite (though innumerable to us) sins, with the infinite Atonement of Christ.
Where the Atonement is applied, then yes, the different degrees of obedience actually performed... will receive the same reward, if they both call upon the Atonement of Christ.
If a Child is saved as Abraham, Jacob, and Isac than when did they perform their works? If they are exalted to the same throne how did they prove themselves as Abraham which we all must do? I thought mortality was the only place to show forth our works in faith? Unless mortality is not really needful than?
Ignorance:
Lets read it in context.
Lets see how to interpret the Scriptures.
I have Key by which I understand the scripture--I enquire what was the question which drew out the answer.-- (Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday January 29, 1843, Joseph Smith) (here)The question was, What is the "more sure word of prophecy"? Answer: "a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life", and Eternal Life is "to know God". So unless you KNOW you are sealed up unto eternal life (D&C 88:1-4), you will not be saved. AS you cannot be saved in ignorance. (Again there are degrees of a saved being)
This is doctrine of the Second Comforter. (D&C 88:1-4)
When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which ...this is the state and place the ancient saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions—Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn."(Teachings, pp. 149-51.)Arrived at, not in an instant, as Joseph said you must begin at hte bottom of the Ladder (King Follet Discourse) and by degrees (D&C 93) grace for grace, ascend (through descent) until you arrive at the top. Joseph taught it would be a great work beyond the veil and even beyond the grave to achieve our exaltation's
"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843–44, p.348).
We will go from "exaltation to exalation" but first we must Gain Exaltation
Again the KFD.
Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.From degrees, to a greater capacity, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation.
Degrees of a saved being:
Lectures on Faith
what is the difference between a saved man and one who is not saved? We answer from what we have before seen of the heavenly worlds, they must be persons who can work by faith, and who are able, by faith to be ministering spirits to them who shall be heirs of salvation. And they must have faith to enable them to act in the presence of the Lord, otherwise they cannot be saved. And what constitutes the real difference between a saved person and one not saved, is the difference in the degree of their faith: one's faith has become perfect enough to lay hold upon eternal life, and the other's has not.
for if we can find a saved being, we may ascertain, without much difficulty, what all others must be, in order to be saved - they must be like that individual or they cannot be saved: we think, that it will not be a matter of dispute, that two beings, who are unlike each other, cannot both be saved; for whatever constitutes the salvation of one, will constitute the salvation of every creature which will be saved: and if we find one saved being in all existence, we may see what all others must be, or else not be saved.I think thats enough for now.
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The church can't teach what it doesn't know.
This doctrine, this doctrine of the priesthood—unknown in the world and but little known even in the Church—cannot be learned out of the scriptures alone. It is not set forth in the sermons and teachings of the prophets and Apostles, except in small measure.
The doctrine of the priesthood is known only by personal revelation. It comes, line upon line and precept upon precept, by the power of the Holy Ghost to those who love and serve God with all their heart, might, mind, and strength. (See D&C 98:12.) -https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1982/04/the-doctrine-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng
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Perhaps my thoughts on "Eternal Progression" (gained primarily through experiences and making choices... why we chose and kept our First Estate) is flawed?
D&C 132:19-20
While this scripture is primarily describing entering into the Everlasting Covenant of Marriage, it does describe what it means to "be gods". It is simply stating that "they have no end".
D&C 130:18-19
It doesn't say anything about knowledge being a pre-requisite to becoming more like our Father in Heaven.
Abraham 3:24-25
It says "if they will do"... not determine how much you need to "know".
D&C 130:20-21
It would appear that obedience 'trumps' knowledge obtained.
So, we need to not "over-complicate" the plan of salvation. That we need to humble ourselves as little children, and follow and do what we have been commanded by revelation to do.
I like that Anddenex referenced the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Were the workers who were hired to labor... did they all perform their labors - despite the length of time? I believe the parable states that they all did.
So I got to learn something out of this - that it isn't necessarily about following the commandments AND knowledge, but in simply following the commandments and humbling ourselves to be as little children, even as Christ submits to the Father.
Intelligence IS LIGHT AND TRUTH. Knowledge IS LIGHT AND TRUTH. Things as they ARE, as they WERE, and as they WILL be. You cannot be saved in ignorance (lack of knowledge).
Joseph made the following remarks on knowledge.
“When God offers a blessing or knowledge to a man, and he refuses to receive it, he will be damned.“Knowledge is necessary to life and godliness. Woe unto you priests and divines who preach that knowledge is not necessary unto life and salvation. Take away Apostles, etc., take away knowledge, and you will find yourselves worthy of the damnation of hell. Knowledge is revelation. Hear, all ye brethren, this grand key: knowledge is the power of God unto salvation.”13 (https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-22?lang=eng)I think these two quotes say enough to not find more.
Yes obedience applies. But what about our different degrees of obedience? Will one laborer receive the same reward as another for a different degree of obedience? No.
The problem is Obedience to WHAT? Do children even become obedient to anything? Did they choose to come and die early? Than what kind of reward will they receive? Perhaps the story of hte talents is more applicable here? That some will double one? Some double 5? Others 10? While some hide it in the earth and receive no new wages? Are their rewards all equal even though one doubled 10 and one only doubled 5? Yes, I believe they are.
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The doctrine is clear and it is fleshed out. They will go to the celestial kingdom. It means exaltation.
Apparently not. I disagree.
Saved and Exaltation are two different words used by the Lord. If a child was exalted by just being born than God would be a partial God, a respecter of persons. (Moroni 8:12)
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"Worlds without End"
"a new earth and a new heaven" shall come to pass.
Saved yes, exalted no. Is that fair? The child misses out on a chance for exaltation?
Is it fair that those without law inherit terrestial glory and it will be tolerable for them while those who practice and believe in god but their hearts are far from Him inherit telestial? All things are fair. God is big in Irony. Where knowledge is given much is expected.
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The word unbelief is used throughout the scriptures 70+ times, nearly 50 in the Book of Mormon alone. Moroni 7 is an excellent chapter on the matter. Context is key when using the word knowledge. When the brother of Jared parted the veil, he no longer had faith, for he knew, nothing doubting. This is central to understanding the fullness of the gospel.
Yup and you cannot KNOW only by the Holy Ghost. Joseph Smith said it this way in the King Follet Discourse.
Found here: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng
I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to answer the question in their own hearts, what kind of a being God is? Ask yourselves; turn your thoughts into your hearts, and say if any of you have seen, heard, or communed with Him? This is a question that may occupy your attention for a long time. I again repeat the question—What kind of being is God? Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen Him, heard Him, or communed with Him? Here is the question that will, peradventure, from this time henceforth occupy your attention. The scriptures inform us that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3.)
If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being He is—if he will search diligently his own heart—if the declaration of Jesus and the apostles be true, he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.
Can you really KNOW him and not have Eternal Life? Can you have eternal life and not know it? Can you really know him and not be like him?
The holy ghost can reveal truths but its still belief. When put into action its Faith. When Faith becomes perfect it becomes knowledge or you know something. (Alma 32).
1 May 1842 (Sunday Morning). Grove.Manuscript History of the Church
pages 119 - 120 I preached in the grove on the keys of the Kingdom, Charity &c The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed —The rich can only get them in the Temple—the poor may get them on the Mountain top as did Moses. The rich cannot be saved without Charity, giving to feed the poor when and how God requires as well as building. There are signs in heaven, earth, and hell, the Elders must know them all to be endowed with power, to finish their work and prevent imposition. The devil knows many signs but does not know the sign of the Son of Man, or Jesus. No one can truly say he knows God {7} until he has handled something, and this can only be in the Holiest of Holies.
So tell me what that "handled something" is and you will know what it means to "know God". This is the fulness of the gospel.
The Lectures on Faith-decanonization.
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
All I can say is wow from reading all this.
It reminds me of the saying, Catholics say the pope is in-fallible but don't believe it, Mormons say the 15 are fallible but don't believe it.
Come Quickly Lord. Come Quickly. We are nothing like Him.
Thanks Skal for trying to stand for truth. I certainly don't know why they removed nor does it concern me but I can say with certainty they are eternally true. They teach of His true nature and the nature we must become if we wish to be like Him.