Steve Noel

I think that the KJV may be causing confusion here. The angel does not say here that he is the brother of the prophets. He says that he is a fellow servant with John and John's brothers, the prophets. Notice the language in the KJV. It is "thy" brethren, meaning John's brethren. That is what it says in Greek. The angel is declaring that he is a fellow servant with John and John's brothers, the prophets. Angels are servants of God, just like humans. That does not make them exalted humans.

Lehi, You will have to go back and read the discussion here. You are completely misunderstanding what I am saying. I explained this in my last post to you. Please review the comments.

Okay, Lehi. You need to get some sleep . This post was not about the difference between angels and humans, but the created (everything) and the uncreated (God). I made the statement that the text implies that God is uncreated. Vort said that was my inference, but that it was not implied in the text. By the way, you made my point accidentally . The crated are in a "single class" here. That class is all-inclusive ("every"). So God is not in the created class. The Father and the Son are uncreated.

If you read Revelation 5 you see that "every created thing" is worshiping the One who sits on the throne and the Lamb. If the Father and the Son are "created things," then they would be included in the phrase "every created thing." It is all-inclusive. Please explain why you do not think that this implies that the Father and Son are not created?

Keep the context in mind. I was asked to describe my concept of angels and how angels differ from God. This was not a comparison of Evangelical and LDS viewpoints.

No problem. So can you clarify what you are saying that "antimormons" are claiming here? I have never heard critics of Mormonism say that resurrected people are angels. Is that what you are saying that they claim?

Okay, I think we are getting mixed up here. If I understood your original post on this you were referencing what "antimormons" say, not what Latter-day Saints say, correct?

I have moved the angels discussion HERE

I am not sure what you mean when you write, "They then tell us outright that men will be resurrected as angels." Could you clarify what you mean by "as" here? Are you saying that they claim resurrected people will be angels, or, that resurrected people will be like angels in certain ways?

I think the argument being made from these texts is more simple than this. In 1 Cor. 6:3 Paul says that "we" (Paul and the Christians in Corinth) will judge angels. Thus he distinguishes between angels and believers. Two distinct groups: angels and believers. The same thing applies in Heb 1:13-14. The angels serve those who will inherit salvation (Christians). Two distinct groups: angels and believers.

In another thread we began to discuss the significant difference between Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals on angels. Since this was a diversion from the topic of that thread I decided to move it here. I find this to be an interesting topic. It is not one that seems to receive much attention in our debates/discussions. That is understandable since this is not an essential belief. Here are 2 quotes that highlight the difference: From the Zondervan Pictoral Bible Dictionary article on angels: From the LDS Beliefs article on angels : This is something that really perplexed me when I read the story of Joseph Smith for the first time. He relayed that a former human being, Moroni, appeared to him as an angel. This immediately made me suspicious of Joseph Smith. For this seemed to contradict what God had already revealed about angels in the Bible. Here are some of the texts I referenced when Carborendum asked about how I view angels and how they differ from God: Others have weighed in with questions/comments in the previous thread. I will try to interact with them as I get the time.

As far as I can tell, there hasn't been any carnal arguing or "Bible bashing" in this thread. We've already taken this thread off track a good bit. I may start a new thread later about angels, but we should probably not derail this any further.

I may start a thread on this later. It is an interesting topic that I haven't seen covered very often in debates/discussions by Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals.

Yeah, I just corrected it and added a bit more.

Indeed. The first time I read the story of Joseph Smith I was perplexed because he was claiming a former human (Moroni) was now an angel. This was not consistent with what I understood to be the biblical teaching on angels. It is one of those things that jumps out to one who is familiar with the Bible. It immediately produces suspicion in the student of the Bible.

Evangelicals cannot accept this because the Bible teaches that angels were created by God and are distinct from human beings. One of the interesting things I noticed in the article on angels in LDS Beliefs: A Doctrinal Reference is that it does not reference the Bible at all. It references Doctrines & Covenants and the Book of Mormon, but not the Bible. It would be interesting to see how Latter-day Saints handle the biblical texts on angels. In LDS Beliefs they do not try. They simply state that what traditional Christians believe about angels is not correct.

In LDS Beliefs: A Doctrinal Reference the article on angels states: "Angels are not, as traditional Christians aver, special creations of God. Rather, they are human beings who minister for the Lord." (36)

I am not aware of any group outside of the Latter-day Saints that teach this. I read through the article on angels in the Zondervan Pictoral Bible Dictionary when answering this question. My copy is older (1967) than the one in the link. This is what it says, "They are not glorified human beings, but are distinct from man (1 Cor. 6:3; Heb. 1:14)" (39).

Correct.

Angels are spirit beings created by God (Ps. 148:2-5; Col. 1:16). The word angel in both Greek and Hebrew means "messenger." Heb. 1:14 says that angels are "ministering spirits" that are "sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation." Though they do not have a physical body, in Scripture they often appear in bodily form (e.g. Jos. 5:13-15). Angels do not marry or die (Luke 20:34-35). Angels are distinct from man (1 Cor. 6:3). The most substantive difference is that God is the Creator and angels are creatures (created beings) of God. Rev. 5:11-14 tells of a scene in heaven where "every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them" are worshiping the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son are not included in "every created thing." So there is the Creator - creature distinction. The implication is that God is uncreated, but angels are part of the creation of God. God is omniscient, angels are not. God is omnipotent, angels are not. God is omnipresent, angels are not. God is eternal (meaning had no beginning and will have no end), angels are not. Angels and humans worship God, but angels are not to be worshiped by humans (Rev. 22:8-9). I don't know that I can answer that. The Bible teaches that at the end there is some kind of merger between heaven and earth. Rev. 21 tells about the dwelling of God coming down to the new earth. It says that the children of God will be with God for eternity. I try not to speculate beyond what is written regarding what we will be doing. There are texts that speak of humans ruling and reigning. There are texts that speak of humans judging the world and angels. There are texts that speak of greater and lesser rewards. I have not studied this out too much, so I can't venture an in-depth response.

I am very busy for the next several days so I will not get to this for a while, but I will get to it.

I think this is true. I recently finished How Wide the Divide? and was really impressed with the LDS contributor, Stephen E. Robinson. In many ways he changed my perspective on Latter-day Saints. One of the things he points out over and over is the miscommunication that often happens because we use similar terms or phrases differently. Many current Latter-day Saints have studied Evangelical theology and are able to communicate LDS beliefs in that context. I am currently reading through Terryl Givens' Wrestling With the Angel. I was thinking today about how much I enjoy his writing. He has studied our theology and so can describe the LDS faith in a context that I can understand.

I know that this experience was from God because of the context, the confirmation, and the fruit. Context: I spent the first 21 years of my life with no interest in God. I never prayed. I never worshiped. I never went to church. I never opened the Scriptures. In fact, I mocked those who did. I saw religion as a fantasy created to comfort emotionally unstable people. I worshiped pornography. My life revolved around sports teams. I worshiped video games. That all changed near the end of 1996. God used a professional boxer on TV to create in me a desire to know Him. For the first time in my life I began to read the Bible. As I read through the gospel of Matthew God deeply convicted me of my sinfulness. He convinced me that I was His enemy and deserved His wrath. This shook me to the core. It kept me up at night. I decided to visit a church near my home. During the Sunday school class the teacher mentioned the word repentance. I had never heard of this before. After class I asked what this meant. He explained repentance to me and led me in a prayer of repentance. That morning I poured out my heart to God, repented of my life of sin, put my faith in Christ's atonement for me, and gave my whole heart to Him. My entire life was transformed from that moment. It wasn't long after this that I had this dream. I was a newly transformed child of God. I had repented of my sins, put my faith in Him, and given him my heart. Confirmation: I know this experience was from God because my experience was confirmed by His Word. In my original post I shared what Isaiah says in 50:10. This is exactly the message of my dream. Of course, there are many, many more Scriptures that teach that God gives His peace to His children who trust in Him. Fruit: I know this experience was from God because the fruit it produced in my life. The Bible says that true peace is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5). This peace was produced in me by the Holy Spirit. It was a supernatural peace. I think this gets to the heart of your issue with my testimony. I am not a Latter-day Saint. Therefore, my testimony is suspect. I have relayed to you my true testimony of the gracious work of God in my life. I leave it to you to wrestle with why God has not led me to be a Latter-day Saint. Whatever "peace" an atheist claims to have is not equivalent to what I've shared here. I am sharing a testimony of how God supernaturally taught me to trust in Him. I don't think we are seeing your questions as an opportunity to argue. We are reading your questions as arguments against what I wrote. Sometimes this medium makes communication difficult, but it is hard not to read into the wording in these questions:

This is a testimony of how God has worked in my life. You seem to be reading it as an argument. I did not share this to argue that my "religion is superior to that of others." It is a testimony, not an argument.

I shared this testimony on Facebook today. I thought I would also share it here. I was thinking about how most of the interactions between Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints center on the our beliefs. The discussions/debates are typically about doctrine / theology / biblical interpretation / church history, etc. These are very important, but they do not tell the whole story. I do not want you to get the impression that my walk with God is merely an intellectual endeavor. This will give you a glimpse into the experiential elements of my walk with God. I came to Christ in November of 1996 at the age of 21. At that time I was often riddled with anxiety about life. My mind was continually occupied with worry. I did not know what it was like to have internal peace. After a morning church service one Sunday early in 1997 I went home and fell asleep. As I slept, I had a dream from the Lord. In my dream I was in our church building at night. Nobody else was present. All the lights were off and the darkness was so thick that I could not see my hand right in front of my face. I sensed that there was danger in the darkness. Fear permeated my body and mind. I seemed to know that there were evil spirits throughout the room. I was paralyzed with fear. I could not see. I was straining to see or hear where the danger was at. In my dream I remember being afraid to take a single step lest I walk into a trap. I crouched to the ground trying not to make any noise. Fear was coursing through my body. All my muscles were tense. My heart was racing. That is when I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Trust me." As soon as these words came to me I closed my eyes and all the fear and tension left my body and mind. Immediately I had complete peace. This exact dream was repeated two more times in succession. As soon as the peace permeated my body and mind the third time I awoke from the dream. It is not possible for me to adequately express the experiential contrasts in the dream. I went from fearful paralysis to perfect peace in an instant. Several years later I came across a text in Isaiah that I have often meditated on. Isaiah writes, I have not lived under the tyranny of anxiety for a long time now. What a great privilege we have as children of God. We have access to the Father anytime, anywhere. All we have to do is lift our eyes and rest in His love and sovereignty. When we do, his peace fills our souls. There is nothing like walking with our great God!