Lostboy289

Its less of an object thing and more that you are showing not only a respect for your friends feelings (where more of an emphasis is placed on loyalty), but respect for the concept of their commitment, even if one of them doesn't want to honor it any more. You might say doing so even disrespects the concept of monogamous love and people's desire to believe in it. I cannot stress enough (and I say this with 100% seriousness) how badly it would be taken if you broke up a friend's engagement. Honestly the complete lack of integrity that would be displayed to a non-Mormon that witnessed this would be considered a major black mark against your character. This isn't simply a "risk losing your hurt friend" type of deal. This is more of a "you will lose all of your friends, even the ones not involved, since no one wants to associate with someone like this" situation. You would have a hard time getting anyone to trust you ever again.

This is really messed up for me. In the non-Mormon world, going after your friend's girlfriend is considered one of the most horrible things you can do to someone, and is pretty much the ultimate sign of disrespect, betrayal, and a complete lack of integrity. That even though your marriage is still the most important relationship in your life, respect and loyalty towards your friends is still important, especially when you aren't even married yet. Breakup first or not is irrelevant, since you shouldn't be in that position in the first place.

That's a hard question. It really varies so much on why the relationship is ending and how committed it was. Id say that a few good ground rules are: 1. No dating other people until your current relationship is over 2. A certain expectation of respect for the other person's feelings is not out of line. 3. If the relationship is deep enough where marriage was on the table, atleast some reasonable amount of thought and effort should probably be put into salvaging it. 4. If any promises were made, they should be honored if at all possible. 5. No text message breakups or ghosting

Its not semantics or that simple, there is a massive difference there. There is a world of difference between single (unattached) and single (relationship or engaged) If I see a girl I like who is single (completely unattached) and want to get to know her, that is ok. If I see a girl I like who is single but a friend of mine likes her and is currently pursuing her, id be a bit of a jerk if I went for it. At the very least a grey area that id talk to him about first. If I decide I like my friend's girlfriend, and make a pass at her id be a massive tool and lose the friendship. If I make a pass at my friend's fiancé and she decides to leave him for me, id be a social pariah and have ruined his life. The girl your friend plans to marry is neither. That's a fair point. Outside of Mormon culture you are correct. A "spectrum" is a very accurate way to refer to it. With the level of commitment and loyalty of both partners increasing as the relationship gets deeper, culminating in marriage. Marriage is still a significant benchmark, but one that once arrived at seems more of a natural evolution that has been built up to rather than a binary. At the very least, complete fidelity is expected once you become exclusive. And any decent individual is expected to honor that fidelity. Trying to get your friend's girl to cheat on or leave them for you is usually grounds for an immediate termination of the friendship by everyone you know.

As far as most people are concerned if you are in a Boyfriend/Girlfriend relationship, if you are committed to another person, or if you are engaged, you are not single.

Wow, I can honestly say that I am incredibly, truly disturbed at hearing this. I figured this would have been an easy to establish common ground. I really cannot believe that no one sees absolutely nothing wrong with deciding you want a friends' girl or boyfriend, and then to try and get them to dump your friend and be with them. When even "The Bro Code" sets a higher standard for loyalty towards your friends than the Mormon Religion, something is horribly, terribly wrong. Also can you guys all please tone it the heck down. You are being very antagonistic and rude.

So there is no middle ground between single and married? That anyone is fair game to poach away from their current S.O. just as long as they aren't married? Even if their S.O. is a close friend or family of yours? Apparently in general callousness towards one another when it comes to romantic matters. That the same christlike ideals we are expected to maintain in every other aspect of our lives needs to be brought into the dating world as well.

Have you paid attention to what ive said at all? A conference talk specifically addressing this matter, and not just kindness or integrity in general. The problem is that people cannot see this situation as a natural extension of those two principals.

Apparently it does need to be addressed, because of how widespread this problem is. I am fully aware of the scripture you are quoting, I just don't think it applies here when there is so clearly a problem. And this thread has only confirmed it to me. I also want to state that I think that this discussion has been so focused on the girl who cheated here. As far as I'm concerned, the friend of this guy who stole her away is also just as guilty of something pretty horrible. Seems like a serious violation of common decency and integrity to go after your friend's/ former companion's/ brother's girl.

Oh come on!! Can you please stop with this garbage?! This is both insulting and getting in the way of any intelligent discussion. You've called me bitter, you've insulted my opinions, and now you are resorting to straw men arguments. I just said that even coming forward and stating during a sacrament talk or conference that we have a responsibility for the feelings of those we are close to. Even just creating a culture where members know that this isn't acceptable is enough.

Id like to weed out cultural acceptance of There is a massive difference between "love the sinner, hate the sin" and simply being indifferent to the sin. What Id like to do to correct this is just let it be known that this behavior is not acceptable for a Christlike individual. The same way that we let it be known that pornography, breaking the law of chastity, or violating the word of wisdom is not acceptable. Just getting the message out there in a general sense is enough through a sacrament or even conference talk. And we cannot solve it entirely in a preventative way by telling people don't get serious before their mission. How to handle situations you already are in has to be addressed as well. Privately I was called out by the Bishop when I confessed what I had done. And the boy I mentioned that took up drinking? He was actually kicked out of his apartment by his member roomates for not promoting Chrislike ideals in their home.

Being part of a YSA gave me an almost blunt level of insight into how people saw the sins of those around them. Young people talk after all. -When a convert who was struggling with a smoking addiction took smoke breaks during sacrament meeting and institute class, people talked. -When one girl came back from summer break noticeably pregnant, people talked. -When one guy who was having some struggles in life didn't at all hide the fact that he started regularly drinking, people talked. But when this happened, everyone thought it was either funny gossip, or acted like it was great ("they make such a great couple", ect), not even caring that one of their friends was devastated. THAT is flat out wrong.

Here you go:

Strangely silent?! What are you talking about? I answered your question twice. Once fairly straightforward and then when you quite rudely claimed I avoided the question, I tried to answer it a different way in more detail. What more do you want? Also, one thing that you completely ignored my point on is that there is a massive difference between sinning in private, and sinning in the full witness of others (something that doesn't really apply to anything ive had to repent for). Also a massive difference between loving the sinner but hating the sin, and simply ignoring the sin and acting like it is fun gossip.

Well all I can tell you about my friend's story is what I saw. However I know for a fact it involved his fiancé dating another man before she told him it was over (I remember checking and she was still wearing the ring). Which regardless of context cant really be explained away. As for my story, I really don't think this is the place to post my sob story. If anyone really wants to know it we can talk in PM. I think another point of disagreement is the severity of breaking a promise if you start dating someone before you end it with the missionary.

I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this one. I get what you are saying, but at the same time I can't just bring myself to say that a promise made to someone should be disregarded when it becomes inconvenient or we realize we acted hastily in making it. Especially when feelings as deep as this are on the line. And this goes for any promises. To me, they are incredibly sacred. And while prevention is great, it doesn't really solve the problem at hand any more than the existence of birth control solves the abortion debate for non-members. Prevention is always the best defense, but what happens when that fails and you actually find yourself there?

But you do have not only an obligation to stay faithful to that person until the relationship has ended. And the level of commitment that relationship had should reflect the care taken with the other person's feelings when ending it. I ask this for future reference not to be arguementative but because I'm truly curious, if you had a boyfriend who made out with another girl, would "cheating" not be a word you would use? What would be more appropriate? Way to not make this a civil conversation. And sorry, I thought I was answering your question. I mean its hard to say because iv'e repented for a few things during my 3 years in the church and each one of them is different. In a couple cases I lost my temple recommend for a few months. And il admit I haven't talked to the Bishop in every case, since some I didn't feel was necessary to. But in every case I can tell you that I prayed about it, found a way to atone, and if a person was hurt, always find a way to make it right with that person. Ive never just moved on when another person's feelings were involved. It wasn't that the church had to go out and "attack" me personally. But there was a culture created where I felt accountable for my actions and because of my relationship with the lord, felt obligated to go repent. However I feel that the social stigma would have been more apparent if I had done anything that was in full public display of the ward. Like for example cheating on my girlfriend in front of everyone.

UK? I'm not British..... Seducing or cheating doesn't have to be sexual, it can still remain within the bounds of the law of chastity while still being cheating. For example making out. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm not, and have hurt people in the past (just never romantically). But i've prayed about it and made it right with the person.

It bothers me because in this church we set an incredibly high benchmark for ourselves in how we live our lives. Not a single drop of alcohol can touch or lips, not a single curse spoken on our tongue, every penny paid in tithing, never knowing the touch of anyone else besides our spouse. Many non-Mormons argue that even these standards for anyone, let alone youth is unrealistic. Yet here we are living it and encouraging others to do so. I don't get why in this case, where we are in a position to have such an influence on another, the integrity which we deal with others suddenly goes out the window and anything is fair game. Cheating on your boyfriend? Just fine. Seducing your best friend's/companion's/brother's girl? Go for it. No one will have anything to say but a congratulations and a slap on the back once that announcement comes out. Sinning is one thing, but an widespread sinning epidemic being brushed aside by a community with a "nobody's perfect" mentality, when that is never, ever an attitude we would take towards any other sin we need to repent from. My crisis of faith is not in God but in the church. How someone can do this to another human, get a temple recommend from the bishop a week later, and go on with their lives. And how vast that problem can be. What was that study saying only 10% of Missionary relationships work out. That sounds pretty horrible to me. The only words ive heard or read talk about not being in a relationship when you go on your mission. Not a single word about what to do when you are already there. Except for all those talks about honesty and integrity which apparently don't apply in the case of how we deal with romantic partners. He was in a hurt state but years later he is fine. He got over it, but that doesn't make the devastation he felt at the time any less real. I am the one that got my own variation of a Dear John phonecall and still have trouble trusting people. And its never going to be a real discussion when you keep saying straw man garbage like that.

Why isn't the church in any way discouraging it? Seems like this is the only form of dishonesty that we kind of turn a blind eye to, while every other aspect of our lives we are encouraged to be Christlike (perfect) about.

Forgiveness is not an issue. The matter in question happened 2 years ago and last time I checked he was doing fine. I've moved away since then so I don't really talk to him much though. My problem is the fact that this is so widespread. That my friends story is just a drop in an ocean of pain we are causing each other. As we all come to this church to be more Christ-like and love one another more, we are hurting eachother in just about the worst ways a person can. And looking for loopholes to justify it. That it is so engrained in our culture that it is almost a benchmark of the missionary experience. But how we go about it isn't. Ending a relationship is not a sin. How we end it can be. I don't care if a person is a stranger on the street or my best friend. Callousness towards the hurt we cause someone is a sin.

It depends on how it his done. And if the breakup is done after screwing around with his good friend behind his back, after she promised to wait for him and marry him; than yes, that is a pretty darn bad one. There is a vast difference between getting in that person's business and privately condemning it, or even celebrating it. I'm not going to confront a member if I catch them smoking, but I sure as heck am not going to congratulate them for it. And saying the only commitments that matter are the eternal ones cheapens the value of all commitments, including eternal ones. "Do what's best for you" should never, ever be the attitude we take towards our fellow brothers and sisters. Yes, actually I would prefer that to being cheated on.

So ruining a persons life isn't considered serious to you? Devastating someone to their core, maybe to the point where they cannot trust someone for years? I know I still cannot fully trust people after mine. And this is more than just the boy/girl who broke the promise. What about the third party here? Often it is a friend, a former companion, or even a family member of the hurt party. Heck, I would feel scummy doing this even if they had already broken up, let alone betraying them to move in on someone that was taken. Is betrayal of your fellow Brother or Sister because you saw something you wanted really not serious? In my mind the seriousness of a sin is directly tied to the level of hurt is causes in others. The limits of our own conscience are not the benchmark here. Even if he/she came to that conclusion after messing around with someone else? Even after you promised someone something, regardless of how eternal that promise was? I thought lying was a sin at all levels? Betrayal too?

That's the thing is there is no definite rule here. No place where we can say "Ok, ive made it. God has got me covered for the rest" What matters is genuine intent. Even more than results. As yourself if you can feel comfortable standing in front of your Lord and saying that you really did your best.

Oh please, that is a strawman argument and you know it. Like any other sin, there is a huge difference between a scarlett letter, and culturally discouraging it to the point where the person feels obligated to go to the Bishop on their own and start the repentance process. That's the thing. I don't expected to be treated differently. If a person took out a flask and started drinking during sacrament or fully admitted to regularly breaking the law of chastity we wouldn't celebrate it or congratulate them for it. I expect it to be treated just the same as any other sin. But it isn't. Its pretty much swept under the rug and forgotten about, with the injured parties encouraged to get over it quickly. In many cases they are even callously offered a wedding invitation, as if that won't make it worse.