BJ64
-
Posts
783 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by BJ64
-
-
On 8/4/2018 at 5:00 PM, MormonHub said:
There is something strange going on in Utah. The State finds itself on two different top-ten lists that you may have seen or heard about. According to the latest Gallup poll, Utah is one of the 10 happiest states in the country. This is a greatly reassuring statistic to hear if you happen to live in the Beehive State. However there is another top 10 list Utah places on that is a little more alarming — suicide (heatmap of US). According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), the specific demographic most at risk of suicide nationwide are teenagers. It is the 2nd leading cause of death for anyone between the ages of 10 and 20, the first being accidents.
A question might be who in Utah is happy and who are killing themselves. My sister in law lives in Utah and she feels she should share the gospel with her non member friends but is hesitant to do so because she says that they are happier than she is.
-
2 hours ago, Carborendum said:
I'm beginning to believe that people just don't see things right in front of their faces and believe that the Church must be hiding things.
When you study church history you find that there is a lot that while perhaps isn’t hidden, it’s also not taught or talked about thus having the effect of being hidden from those who do not search it out for themselves. This is why I think it’s great that they are going to the effort of publishing the Joseph Smith papers. That which is published can no longer be hidden.
-
1 hour ago, Carborendum said:
I'm interested what "connections" it mentions. Every quote I've read on the topic discusses it only in very general terms, using parallelism, metaphor, and imagery. I don't see any official stating there is a real "connection".
The only relevant point about them being apostates was that what made them apostates also made them unfit to be masons.
What is being forgotten? How is this being forgotten any more than any other "footnote" in Church history? And really, the so called "Masonic Connection" is just that... a footnote.
You're right. It isn't.
Again. What connections?
It has become taboo simply because urban legends have sprung up around it. Before that, it was merely unimportant. But once people started thinking conspiracy theory land, people made it taboo when it was never meant to be. There are Masons who are Mormons. But they are much more common outside of Utah. This was a result of an interesting cultural development between Mormons and Masons in Utah. For many years, Mormons were specifically black-balled from lodges in Utah because of this divide. This fueled the urban legends about it. But outside of Utah, there was no such prejudice. Some time ago, the Utah Masons lifted the ban on Mormons. And there are some Utah Mormon Masons now.
We've discussed it here a couple times in the past few years. Do a search and you'll find the threads.
Why do you find it so interesting from a "historical standpoint"? Yes, there were some Mormons who were masons in the Nauvoo era. But that is no more or less historically interesting than finding out there were some Mormons who were democrats in the Nauvoo era.
If you are interested in church history I would recommend reading Nauvoo a Place of Prace a People of Promice. It’s very well researched using period sources rather than later recollections. It’s been a few years since I read it but I’m sure it told about freemasonry in Nauvoo.
Having studied church history extensively I’d say that only a small fraction of church history is ever taught. To understand church history you have to learn it on your own.
-
1 hour ago, VelvetShadow said:
I had no idea that mormons dont believe in the Nicene Creed
That is one of the main reasons that some “Christians” argue that Mormons are not Christians.
-
@wenglund I think you understand me when I say that the primary purpose of sex is procreation yet the primary use of sex is pleasure. We have a lot more opportunity in this life or the latter than the former.
However there are those who would have us believe that any other purpose than procreation is evil, lustful, impure, unholy and so forth. I don’t believe that.
I think it was understood from the beginning of time that the principal use of sex would be for the pleasure and bonding of married couples and I believe that won’t change for married exalted couples after this life.
I think all the sex negative teaching that began in the dark ages with people such as Augustine have lead people to believe that sex is it evil, indulgent hedonistic thing that good people would not participate in let alone gods.
However, done in the approved context, it is a sacred and holy and completely appropriate thing.
How this relates to the topic is that as I said before I believe that the desire for sex will not end after this life.
-
1 hour ago, rustedhart said:
This started with a very relevant, important question and has led to us having some kind of fluid other than blood that transfers celestial hormones through glorified flesh. Who has time for all of this?
Obviously people a lot farther along the path to salvation than me . . .
Well it seems many people don’t even “have the time” for daily scripture study let alone the study of church doctrine, the study of the writings of prophets, the study of church history or the time to ponder pray and receive personal revelation.
-
4 hours ago, DennisTate said:
On a somewhat humorous note.......
I have to admit that I have total empathy with nearly fifty percent of homosexuals...... lesbians?!
If.... The Ancient of Days the Father... .The Holy Spirit ... and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus had decided to send me to this planet as a woman....... I think I might be struggling with powerful lesbian tendencies???!
It’s funny you should say that since it was just recently that I told my wife that if I was a woman I’d be a lesbian.
I based that on the fact that if I was a woman I would not want to wear skirts, high heels, jewelry make up nor long hair or long fingernails. I’d be a very masculine woman. However that’s probably not a fair statement in regards to lesbians.
-
3 hours ago, DennisTate said:
I personally am a Messianic Gentile who feels called into politics and I
was so glad to read what near death experiencer ...... and good friend of Mrs. Betty EAdie, author of
Embraced By The Light wrote about this question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Eadie
Here is the reply that Christian got when he asked about this:
The LDS view is that only heterosexual couples sealed in the temple will be exalted. I believe the husband and wife relationship is a necessary part of the creation of worlds.
Practicing homosexual people will still inherit a kingdom of glory but by not obeying the commandment of entering the new and everlasting covenant of marriage with a member of the opposite sex they will forfeit the possibility of exaltation.
Of course God loves everyone but His love isn’t going to exalt those who have not been obedient to His commandments.
-
1 hour ago, Maureen said:
If you didn't tour the Community of Christ properties while in Nauvoo, then how do you know if they gave lectures?
M.
I’ll rephrase that. We didn’t go on their tours because we didn’t care to hear what they had to say.
It’s amazing what minute things people here find to argue about.
-
5 hours ago, MrShorty said:
@wenglund: I'm not sure myself how I am using sexuality, because none of it, as it pertains to the afterlife, is entirely clear to me. I know that something about gender (male vs. female) is eternal and goes with us into the next life. Males are still "male", females are still female, intersex and gender ambiguous are -- I don't know, transgender -- I don't know. We will still have physical bodies that look a lot like our existing mortal bodies but that are "perfected" (whatever that means).
As I have followed the conversation, and assertions that there will be no "biochemical sex drive" or libido or similar, I place over the sexual models that I am familiar with, and I end up with something that really begins to look asexual. All the parts are there and functional, but there is not drive or hunger or craving for sexual expression. Asexuals can engage in sexual behaviors (depending on level of aversion), and may even choose to "go along to get along" (maybe out of kindness or generosity depending on the exact dynamics of the relationship) if they are in a relationship with a sexual partner.
This line of thinking branched off into thoughts of St. Augustine -- who believed that sex before the fall was pure, without passion
Under this kind of model, there are naturally no homosexuals. There really aren't heterosexuals as we know them either. I don't understand why this model necessarily precludes homosexual pairings (other than some kind of circular there are no homosexuals in the CK).
With that response, anything you (or others) would care to clarify?
Without commenting directly on what he said I’ll give my opinion on St Augustine. He lived in the dark ages when Jesus Christ’s Church was not upon the earth. Since there are only two churches, the church of Jesus Christ and the church of the devil, his teachings were from the latter.
-
1 hour ago, wenglund said:
Yes, I read you response to Anddenex after I posted my reply. Sorry I missed it, though I will address it now
On the surface, this makes a lot of sense. However, when one considers that the relationship between blood and hormones are complicated beyond the mode of transmission, and when one considers that complexity of hormonal interactions with each other and as prompted by certain body parts and functions, it becomes a bit more problematic.
To keep things somewhat manageable, let me ask whether you believe that some or all of resurrected women will menstruate? I bring this up not just for reasons of the blood in case of mortals, since that may be explained away with the "something other" you mentioned above. Rather, I have in mind the "issue" (as the Bible terms it) and more particularly the discarding or death of the egg, which strikes me as implausible within an eternal realm. Keep in mind that the mortal menstrual cycle is prompted and regulated by hormones.
If you answer no, then this suggests that not all hormones found in mortals are present or operate the same in resurrected beings, and even leaves open the prospect that they don't exist at all, and there may be "something other" to activate reproductive functionality.
If you answer yes, then how do you account for the "issue" and dead eggs?
Also, on a related note, there are activating and inhibiting reproductive hormones that not only regulate sperm production and ovulation and the like, but which also influence libido and sexual arousal and thus sexual/reproductive functionality. Even if one assumes that hormones exist beyond the grave, who is to say that for non-Celestial resurrected beings, the inhibitor hormones will predominate, assuming that the hormones are initially activated at all--I have in mind my analogy comparing non-Celestial resurrected beings to pre-pubescent mortal children (they have the reproductive body parts, but not the reproductive functionality, stimulation, or libido.)
For my part, I am of the opinion that reproductive hormones do not exist beyond the grave, but are replaced with "something other," and this only among Celestial resurrected beings. Meaning, not only that homosexuality doesn't exist beyond the grave, but that sexually and reproduction, aside from the mere presence of reproductive body parts, doesn't exist for non-Celestial beings. They are as little children.
I can accept, though, that you and others may view it differently, and I value the learning and growing experience I have gained from reasonably engaging in our differences. {thumbs up]
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
I have no opinion on menstrstion in the eternities nor of the sexuality of non exalted individuals.
To complicate things, what about the promise that those righteous people who do not have the opportunity to marry and have children in this life will have it in the next life?
What about the fact that Christ was immortal/mortal. He had blood but could only die by choosing to do so?
Presumably he had hormones as well as a wife and children.
-
2 hours ago, wenglund said:
First, part of the confusion these days stems from culturally viewing sex more, if not exclusively, according to its distant secondary or tertiary purpose (evolutionary speaking, if not also in terms of the gospel) as an expression of romantic love rather than according to its primary purpose to reproduce.
While the primary purpose of sex is reproduction, the primary use of sex is pleasure. I would say that practically speaking pleasure between husband and wife is the primary purpose of sex. I think it was intended to be that way. There’s only a relatively short period of time where reproduction is desirable or possible. While my wife and I have used it to reproduce four times, we’ve used it for pleasure more than four thousand times. Those who think that sex is a necessary evil in order to reproduce are missing out on what I feel is primary usefulness of sex.
I don’t think that will change for exalted couples.
The primary purpose of sex being to produce posterity in this life and the next is why homosexual relations are against God’s plan for us.
Someone has said that homosexual desires will be gone after this life. I asked many pages back how you would know this to be the case? It seems like a pretty complicated issue to me. To make a difinitive statement on this issue you would either have to be able to find it in scripture or be a prophet speaking while moved upon by the spirit. I haven’t been able to find either of these as of yet.
The primary purpose of eating is to stay alive but I suspect most people eat because they enjoy food and crave it.
-
2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:
He said Nauvoo Temple dedication; so that would have been what, 2002-ish?
Also: based on a tour of the Beehive House I took about 5 years ago . . . Well, suffice it to say, whatever information you get from the missionaries giving tours of any of the Church’s historic sites is likely to be . . . ahem . . . general. These are not trained historians, they didn’t request the assignments they have, and—speaking anecdotally—they see history as a means to the end of proselytizing; rather than a worthy interest in its own right. I’d love to see that change; but for now—it apparently is what it is (or was); and it just reminds us that we shouldn’t be looking to the Church to spoon-feed us our historical dogma.
Yes I was there in 2002.
Speaking of church historic sight tours things have changed a lot from say thirty years ago.
Living not that far from Salt Lake I have been to the Beehive House many times. In the old days it was Relief Society volunteers who gave historical tours of the house and explained its construction, its use and modifications over time, what was done in the restoration, how the drapery fabric and carpets were reproduced and so forth. One lady who gave us a tour once had been involved in the restoration and told us about climbing around in the basement and attic.
Now sister missionaries who know almost nothing about the house give the tour which is not much more than a missionary discussion.
When we went to Nauvoo and saw the sights along the way we discovered that every church site has been turned into a missionary opportunity. While that may be beneficial for the church it anoyed is a bit because we were in a hurry and just wanted to see the sights without having to wait for the next tour group so that we could sit through long missionary discussion. Like I said it might be beneficial but if I was touring sights of another church and they were preaching to me I’d leave. In fact we did not tour the Comunity of Christ properties in Nauvoo because we didn’t want to hear their lectures.
Mind you that this was during the temple open house so every church site along the route was packed with tourists on their way to see the temple.
As a side note the first group of saints to leave Nauvoo took three months to cross Iowa. It took us six hours to cross it.
-
I think this scripture sort of says that we are the same in our thinking, desires and weaknesses after this life as now.
Alms 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
-
That’s s new sign. Thank you for posting it.
-
1 hour ago, NeedleinA said:
On LDS.org, simply type "Masonic Hall" in the search block and watch the conspiracy theory evaporate.
Church History in the Fulness of Times Student Manual - Chapter 19“Maps,” Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual (2002), viii–xvi - Masonic Hall (top square)
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Does the sign out front mention Masonic Hall and do the missionaries make mention of it? It didn’t and they didn’t when I was there.
-
duplicate
-
However, if you read the book Nauvoo A Place of Peace a People of Promise you will discover that most of the history of that time is conspicuously absent from teachings about church history.
-
Deleted
-
12 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:
Who is the "someone" that you speak of?
When I was in Nauvoo they had a newspaper article hanging on the wall of the bakery next door talking about the Masonic ties of the Cultural Hall.
In addition, if someone is trying to hide this fact, they aren't doing a very good job at it since it is sitting in the Church's newspaper?
From the Historic Nauvoo website.
Perhaps things have changed but when I was there for the Nauvoo temple open house any mention of it being a Masonic Hall was conspicuously absent.
-
Our stake president is also a full time seminary teacher. He has taught that if the children are sealed to the parents and the parents live worthily that sealing will remain in effect and through some means all the children will be saved with them.
I believe there is wording in the sealing ceremonies that could imply such a thing. The sealing of parents is dependent on their worthiness but the sealing of children is not if I’m remembering correctly. However I don’t want to quote those things here.
-
In Nauvoo there is a Masonic Hall that dates to the time of Joseph Smith. However if you visit it now you will find it called the Cultural Hall. It seems that someone wants to distance the church from freemasonry.
-
Pineapples on pizza? Yes definitely.
-
2 hours ago, wenglund said:
Where we differ is whether the Celestial resurrected bodies retain the full range of sexual/procreative functionality of adult mortal bodies--and here is where you left a portion of my previous post unaddressed: specifically , those aspects of the sexual/procreative functionality of adult mortals that involve blood. I would be interested to learn how you account for these things in resurrected being since, at least to my understanding, blood will not exist among the resurrected.
I ask because, as two of us have pointed out, blood is key to the issue of mortal libido.
I thought I addressed that when I said that some sort of fluid will be coursing through our veins. Presumably that fluid would handle the functions that our blood handles.
We know that resurrected beings can eat earthly food so the function of major body systems must be substantially the same.
What is really going on with Utah’s Suicide Epidemic?
in Third Hour Article Discussion
Posted
Here is a link to an article the church has put out on suicide prevention. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/reach-out-in-love-to-those-considering-suicide-elder-renlund?cid=email-IN_080518_English_CTA2
I think this is an interesting statement from Elder Renlund.
The Latter-day Saint leader says the “old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin and that someone who commits suicide is banished to hell forever” is “totally false.”
Its isteresting that something I was taught in the church all the while I was growing up and even until recent years is now “an old sectarian notion”.