NeuroTypical
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Posts posted by NeuroTypical
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We really don't have enough information to judge the guy. Plus, it's not really our place to judge him or his intentions. He's either genuine or he's not. Either is possible.
If there's something I've learned in all my years, it's that responding to an issue with a personal attck or unrighteous judgement against the person bringing the issue, is a surefire way to NOT help anyone. The genuine seeker will figure there's no good answer to his question. The wolf in sheep's clothing will just be more firmly entrenched in his beliefs that we're a bunch of mindless jerks that can't think, and can only attack the messenger.
LM
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This was a bit unwarranted, IMO. 4 hours after ztodd made his post, he posted again:ztodd i suggest you do some research before you say something that might make you look foolish.
That's the problem with admonishing people to be more thorough in their research - it's way too easy for you to make the same mistake.After reading what drjme posted, if all that is true, then I can see how we need to be careful about children watching the movies or reading the books. Perhaps Pullman really is out to destroy belief in God. At least snopes.com says he is.
Anyway, emotions tend to run a bit high when dealing with such diametrically opposed viewpoints on such a crucial topic as the very existence of God. I suggest again, we try to check these emotions at the door, and try to take a rational look at things.
I asked a few questions that nobody has tried to answer yet. I'd love to hear what you folks think.
The author is certainly a dyed-in-the-wool athiest, and his books are pushing his beliefs. So? I'm sure we all want to raise righteous, well-rounded children. It seems they're well-served when we expose them to the alternate beliefs of the world (assuming they're mature enough to grasp the concepts). Do our children not have the light of Christ? Are we not commanded to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves"?
LM
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Do NOT take this situation lightly. Here in CO, we just had a guy go nuts and kill 5 people. He started with a (non-LDS) mission house near Denver, then he drove down to Colorado Springs to the local mega-church here and killed 2 teenage girls, before a site security guard finally brought him down with her gun.
He had a history of being a hard-to-get-along-with angry person with a hair trigger too.
One of the many news stories here.
LM
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The 3-fold mission of the church:
1- Perfect the Saints
2- Proclaim the Gospel
3- Redeem the Dead
Now, it seems like there's nothing at all offensive with the concept of an apologetics class - it seems to fall under #1 quite nicely. However, I don't think you'll ever see it happen during church on Sunday. There's much more to the church than just what goes on under our wardhouse roofs for 3 hours once a week. We also have the Church Educational System that does seminary and secondary education. There's BYU and all of it's sattelites and distance learning programs.
Sunday is reserved for the sacred. The sacrament, worship, reverence - that sort of thing. Learning why we can still keep our testimonies despite Joseph Smith's ownership of a Jupiter talisman doesn't really foster such a sacred attitude. But hey, if CES offers something, sign me up!
Well, he seems to have an incomplete view of apologetics. As you mention, evaluating criticisms of our faith does not imply attacking someone else. Additionally, we have these scriptures:He said that there was no way we would ever do that because we are commanded to not practice apologetics.
D&C 71:5-11 Now, behold this is wisdom; whoso readeth, let him understand and receive also; For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power. Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. Wherefore, let them bring forth their strong reasons against the Lord. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time. Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful. Even so. Amen.
1 Peter 3:15: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1 Thessalonians 5:21: Prove all things; hold fast to which is good.
Jude 1:3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
Well, you gotta give us GP teachers a break. Just because we read the lesson the day before the rest of you, doesn't mean we're scholars!We all know the flaws in these statements, but you would honestly think that a GP teacher would know better.
LM
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I'd just like to say thank you to whomever designed this forum. You made it so easy to find all posts a person has made! This is a great tool!
Oh, and thanks to the mods for banning the latest wolf in wolf's clothing.
LM
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Interesting responses - thanks!
Just out of curiosity, what's wrong with that? The author is certainly a dyed-in-the-wool athiest, and his books are pushing his beliefs. So? I'm sure we all want to raise righteous, well-rounded children. It seems they're well-served when we expose them to the alternate beliefs of the world (assuming they're mature enough to grasp the concepts). Do our children not have the light of Christ? Are we not commanded to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves"?Maybe they watered down this movie but if tons of people see it and like it then they'll make the next 2 and they might not water those down.
Also, why are you folks assigning labels of idiot, imbecile, and senile to this author? From reading his interviews and whatnot, it is overpoweringly obvious that he is none of these things.
May I suggest you take a step back, and read 1 Corinthians 13 before insulting people.
LM
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Hi Khamette,
You're in good company. I know someone who fights hard against the crippling aspects of her depression. There are a lot of causes for 'winter blues' of varying severity. Have you considered what might be causing your depression? If it's a biological cause such as Seasonal Affective Disorder - there are things you can do for yourself. Lots of people take issue with the commercialized secularization of the holidays - but they're not 'crippled with depression' by it.
My friend got a light box, and reports doing much better just sitting in front of it for 15 min every morning.
LM
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Beware - there be spoilers here!
I just saw the Golden Compass. I haven't read any of the books, but from where I'm standing, the "protect your poor innocent children from this evil movie" hype over the movie is sorely misguided and unnecessary.
Random thoughts:
* This is a good vs. evil movie, just like any other good vs. evil movie. And the evil people are not Catholic in this movie. Maybe they severely watered down the book, but there is no anti-religious message I could detect.
* The Magesterium bad guys seem a bit one dimensional to me. They're bad because they want to control everyone and have all the power, and that's pretty much it. They try to keep aspects of reality quiet, because it would spread dissent, and people would be harder to control, and they dress up their efforts as attempts to help people be happy. The evil chick that beats up her own daemon, cuz when you're evil, you got issues, and that's about as deep as it goes. Maybe I missed something, but I didn't figure out why they were performing the Nazi-like experiments of cutting children away from their daemons.
* When a person is killed, their daemon dissapears in a gentile shower of sparks. But if this is athiest propaganda, they need to get themselves a better PR person, because there isn't any accompanying message about a lack of an afterlife. The movie allows a rational conclusion to be drawn that souls move on, just like we religious folk believe they do here. Just like Harry Potter, there just isn't much spirituality or anti-spirituality to be found. The closest thing we seem to have to a genuine faith belongs to the witches - and the only thing we really know about their faith, is that their prophecy about the little girl seems to be coming true.
* There is pretty clear message on the topic of out of wedlock births. Any resultant pain or discomfort in the parent's or children's lives as a result of not having married parents, is the fault of the culture that frowns on such an arrangement.
* The movie definitely considers itself the first installment. The cool battle at the end is a clear portent for bigger things to come.
I wont' be taking my 6 yr old to see this movie, for the same reason I won't take her to see Harry Potter or LOTR. A bit too violent, with confusing plot twists that would go over her head.
LM
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Woo-hoo! 3 cheers for this board!
Man, 10 years ago, I would have given my left pinkie for a place to come ask questions like this.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nolank)</div>
Nolank, I think you may have made quite a jump to a very unwarranted conclusion. The issue of DNA, and what it can and can't tell us, is much more complex than you give it credit for.I was as shocked as most of the members of the Mormon church when no Israelite DNA was found in the indigious people tested throughout the Americas.
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If the Book of Mormon was written by Joseph instead, the Mormon church doesn't have the authorized priesthood restored to the earth as I was taught. It's purpose for existance is threatened.
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My concern is the authenticity of the Book of Mormon only. The church exists because we all believed it to be authentic, thus divinely directed and the primary reason I have been a member of my church for 68 years.
A few random thoughts:
* There is no such thing as "Israelite DNA", no matter how much Southerton, Murphy, and other church critics want there to be.
* It is not only possible, but plausible and expected, that Lehi and gang's genetic signature (whatever it was) would dissapear completely when mixed with larger populations.
* It's always a good idea to look at what you believe, and why you believe it. If you think the BoM expressly claims that all of North, Central, and South America was completely empty and devoid of all human life when Lehi arrived, you are not correct. If you think the BoM claims the Nephites and Lamanites were the ONLY peoples who ever lived in North, Central, and South America, you are not correct.
Well, reply or not - I hope you continue to read and think. The DNA criticisms leveled against our church and our faith don't hold any water against the truthfulness of the BoM. They can only be fatal against our preconceived beliefs and unwarranted interpretations we've made.I will not be back to reply further.
Understand the difference between doctrine and cultural belief traditions.
LM
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I see this trend happening throughout history, not just changes for the modern age. (Unless you consider Gallileo a member of the modern age, that is.)As we try to adjust our thinking to an explosion of information in our modern age, many have come to think that any adjustments are contrary to scripture.
I would say new facts about the world are not contrary to scripture. They might be contrary to our interpretations and understandings of scripture. And conclusions drawn from the facts may or may not be correct, and may or may not contradict either scripture, or our interpretation of it.
There is also the continually pervasive misunderstandings about the difference between facts, beliefs, conclusions, hypotheses, truth, good science, bad science, leaps of logic, leaps of faith, and logical fallacies. When they make me emperor, I'll fix this somehow, but until then, I guess we're stuck with some people accidentally misrepresenting beliefs as truth, and fallacies as facts.
What statements would those be? I'm aware of various church leaders tossing their opinions into the general debate, but a "statement" from a church leader can either be opinion or doctrine, inspired or not.With regards to your statement that leaders have left the door open, I'm not entirely clear to what degree that can be true. For example, evolution is an okay theory for study, but statements have been made to correct the idea of human evolution.
No and no. From what I can tell, the current most-widely accepted theory has Neanderthals existing from around 130,000 yrs ago, dying out around 24,000-ish years ago. Homo Sapiens (modern humans) also first appear around 130,000 years ago. So, depending on how you think of the Biblical timeline and where the Garden of Eden was located, there's absolutely nothing forcing us to think Adam had anything at all to do with Neanderthals.Which really makes sense to me, in that if human evolution were a viable theory it would mean Adam was a Neanderthal, right? Or would Adam be the first fully evolved man to come from the neanderthals?
It's all about how you choose to interpret the scriptures. Is the creation story in Genesis a literal account? Is it symbolic? How symbolic, and symbolic of what? There are plenty of ways to interpret Genesis that do not conflict with evolution.But then we know that in Genesis it talks of Adam being formed by God himself, not through neanderthals. So in that sense evolution had to be discredited because it would destroy the faith of millions in the Holy Scriptures.
Are you claiming these statements are inspired? What makes you think so? (Actually, I'd like to see what some of the statements actually are in the first place, if you have any handy.)I think that for a very good reason the prophets made statements against that theory.
Oh absolutely - me neither. A good lively discussion is good for the blood!I do however agree that there should be respect toward anyone still with regards to their viewpoints and beliefs. I don't mean this in any ways as a contention or criticism.
LM
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I've never heard anyone in the church, low or high, talk about the holocaust as anything other than a tremendous evil brought about by the Nazis.I was just wondering if the church had a stance on this subject because I have heard some people say that the holocaust was punishment.
And some of the things that I see happening in the world like the Holocaust are only explainable by a manifest evil force...
- Elder Oaks Interview from PBS Documentary
The mass-murders of the twentieth century are among the bloodiest crimes ever committed against humanity. We can hardly comprehend the magnitude of the Nazi holocaust murders of over five million Jews in Europe, Stalin’s purges and labor camps that killed five to ten million in the Soviet Union, and the two to three million noncombatants who were killed or who died of hunger in the Biafran War.
All of these slaughters, and others like them, were rooted in the ancient wickedness Satan taught—that a man could murder to get gain.
- Elder Oaks, World Peace, May 1990 Ensign
Hope this helps.
LM
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I'm by no means an expert, but I'll add my two cents...
No. Being saved means accepting Christ as your Savior, availing yourself of His atoning sacrifice, so you can go to heaven. The difference between LDS and other Christians, is that we believe being saved is a good start - there's other stuff we should shoot for.1. Is the LDS definition of being "saved" different from non LDS?
LDS teach and believe this is true. From the Gospel Principles manual on baptism:2. Does one need to be baptized by one with authority to recieve salvation?
How Should We Be Baptized?
There is only one correct mode of baptism. Jesus revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith that a person having the proper priesthood authority to baptize “shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism. … Then shall he immerse him or her in the water, and come forth again out of the water” (D&C 20:73–74). Immersion is necessary. The Apostle Paul taught that being immersed in water and coming out again is symbolic of death and resurrection. Our sins are washed away when we are baptized. After baptism we start a new life. Paul said:
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
“For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection” (Romans 6:3–5).
Baptism by immersion by a person having the proper authority is the only acceptable way of being baptized.
Jesus said it in the Bible, and in the BoM: “Whoso believeth in me, and is baptized … shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned”3. Is baptizm a requirement for salvation?
Exaltation is the highest form of salvation we can achieve.4. The first principles of the Gospel are Faith in Christ, Repentence for sins, Baptizm for remission of sins, and reception of the Holy Ghost. Is this needed for salvation or just for exaltation?
My two cents.
LM
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IMO, Exec Sec is the best calling in the ward. You get to hear all the callings and assignments discussed, and you're never the one that gets the calling or assignment!now I'm in the Bishopric as Ward Executive Secretary.
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Hi Cherisalorraine!
I think it's great that you're looking before you're leaping.
Nobody will ask you to wear anything (except maybe 'sunday best' to church), until you decide you want to go to the temple. And as someone already mentioned, a new member will wait a year before choosing to go. Some members do not go to the temple at all. I don't know about other wards, but my ward, maybe 20-30% of the people actually go to the temple.1. What is this garment that people are speaking of and Why does Heavenly Father ask them to wear it.
Depending on where you live, your children will not just be treated as equals, they will be equals. There will certainly be converts in your ward. We don't send all those missionaries out into the world because everyone is already LDS!3. Will my children be treated as equals to their peers (they are not born into the church and will be behind in studies and they were both born out of wedlock
I hope you don't think of this as arguing semantics, but you don't "have to" do a single thing. There is no force involved. When you go into the water you are not a member, when you come out, you are. The short list of things to do before you get baptized (from the church's Gospel Principles book:4. what steps do I have to follow to actually become a member of the Church after baptism
It's implied that before you get baptized, you believe in God, accept Christ as your savior, believe the church is "the fold of God", etc. I would certainly advise against baptism if you don't believe in God...Alma taught that when we are baptized we make covenants with the Lord to—
1. Come into the fold of God.
2. Bear one another’s burdens.
3. Stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all places.
4. Serve God and keep his commandments.
When we are baptized and keep the covenants of baptism, the Lord promises to—
1. Forgive our sins.
2. Pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon us.
3. Give us daily guidance and the help of the Holy Ghost.
4. Let us come forth in the First Resurrection.
5. Give us eternal life.
Oh heck no. The do's and don'ts of the word of wisdom are all about what is good for our bodies and souls. Medicine is by defnition, good for us. Now if you are abusing over-the-counter drugs, you may have a problem.5. is taking medication for an ovarian tumor that has caffeine in it a sin
If you are an avid reader, and want a really good solid foundation into the founding of our church, I'd recommend the Work and the Glory series of historical fiction by Gerald Lund. 9 volumes. Don't panic - not too many mormons have read all of these. I'm just saying that if you are an avid reader, by the time you're done with that series, you'll know more about church history than maybe half of the people sitting next to you at church.6. Can any one tell me any other things that I would be interested in knowing as I am a convert and I have had no contact with LDS until very recently and I think that I should at least know the basics I am getting scared and nervous the more I think about it and I am sure that it is something trying to get me to walk away but I would prefer to just learn and keep going
What it came down to for me - I felt the undeniable, inescapable prompting of the Holy Ghost, witnessing to me that the church was true. I came to this experience in my own time, on my own knees, alone in my own room. Has something similar happened to you? If not, I would suggest that you go and seek the answer to your prayer, and then if you recieve an answer, go forth firm and steady.
Good luck! Ask more questions if you've got them!
LM
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1. The free twister mat.
2. Not wanting to look dumb for being wrong about the free twister mat.
3. A chance to use big words and act smart.
LM
[Well, whaddaya expect? QP, Morningstar, and Canuck took all my real answers...]
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Gospel Principles instructor. I don't like public speaking. I hate wearing ties. I suffer fear and anxiety when preparing for talks - I always worry I'll run out of things to say, or say something stupid or wrong. I've done all 3 in the past, and it's very much not fun - like stuff out of my nightmares.Out of all the callings in the church, is there one you absolutely dread receiving?
However, I've grown more with that calling than I have with any other. So I gratefully accepted the call earlier this year. I spend 2-3 hours every Saturday preparing - making lesson notes - preparing extra material in case there's time left over - reading the scritpures - reading everything I can on the lesson topic. I practice speaking out loud (which allows me to 'prescreen' the stupid and wrong stuff).
I think it's going pretty well. After the lesson is over and everybody leaves, it's like a weight falls off my shoulders, and I'm left with sort of a giddy lighter-than-air feeling. I go collapse in a chair in Elder's Quorum and decompress. And I am learning. Every lesson that I give opens doors, unlocks understandings, deepens my comprehension. And I like that a lot.
LM
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From LDS.org:
Wearing the Temple Garment
Once people are endowed, they have the blessing of wearing the temple garment throughout their lives. They are obligated to wear it according to the instructions given in the endowment. Those who have been endowed in the temple must remember that the blessings that are related to this sacred privilege depend on their worthiness and their faithfulness in keeping temple covenants.
The garment provides a constant reminder of the covenants made in the temple. The garment should be treated with respect at all times. It should not be exposed to the view of those who do not understand its significance, and it should not be adjusted to accommodate different styles of clothing. When worn properly, the garment provides protection against temptation and evil. Wearing the garment is an outward expression of an inward commitment to follow the Savior.
From LDSFaq:
Q: What are Latter-day Saint garments?
A: The word "garment" has a distinctive meaning to Latter-day Saints. Members who have received the ordinance of the temple endowment wear a white ceremonial undergarment. Members wear the garment under their regular clothing for the rest of their lives, day and night, to remind them of the sacred covenants they have made with God. It is an outward expression of an inward covenant and symbolizes Christlike attributes in one's mission in life. The white garment symbolizes purity and helps assure modesty and respect for the attributes of God. Scripture and ancient tradition point toward the significance of sacral clothing. The clergy and ministry in almost all major faiths wear special clothing. For Latter-day Saints, among whom there is no professional ministry, men and women from all walks of life share in the callings, responsibilities, and blessings of the priesthood. Their sacred clothing, representing covenants with God, is worn under rather than outside their street clothes.
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I think your friend has been given some shoddy, ill-researched, or outright fabricated lies about mormonism. The last time I heard this criticism, it was from someone who "could never be a mormon, because I don't want my loins touched in the temple". He went on to claim it happened to everyone that went there.I was talking to a friend and he knew a fair amount about the Mormon religion. Something he said disturbed me even greater than the wearing of garments. He said if you get high up in the Church - that is to say if you become a General Authority or such - that you have oil rubbed on your body while your naked from head to foot. I find this hard to understand as well.
Well, I've been there, and no, it doesn't.
LM
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Probably the best thing we came to realize about each other, is that we each had very different things that made us feel loved. If you're not familiar with the concept of 'love languages', I heartilly suggest the book the Five Love Languages to you.
It sure was nice to figure out that there was nothing wrong with either of us, we just had to learn to do what the other really wanted, instead of just assuming the other liked what we did.
LM
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You will occasionally encounter Mormons who believe the verse is referring to the Catholic church. Although, as others have already mentioned, this is not an official teaching by any means.
The nicest little old lady I've ever met anywhere on the entire face of planet earth, just happens to be Catholic. One would think that the devil would have kicked this sweet lady out of his church years ago.
LM
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Hi Searcher, thanks for the clarifications about my assumptions.
That all makes sense to me.One would assume that after 2 years of intense scripture study and working in the field I would have a strong testimony and tons of spiritual experiences to tell. One would assume wrong. Also, it is a known truth that having the entire family together united in the gospel can help overcome many doubts and keep each other strong in the faith. This is why I've mentioned my families faith. However, my own faith has never been on par with theirs.
If you're the book-learning type, I can recommend a book. Evidences and Reconciliations by John Widstoe. You can pick up a used copy from Amazon.com for under ten bucks, including shipping.
LM
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Hi searcher!
Be welcome here. I just have a random thought. I was reading the Gospel Principles lesson on 'gifts of the spirit', and was recently reminded that we experience a relationship with deity in many different ways. Some of us have a gift of great faith. Others are gifted with an intellectual knowledge of God's reality. Others have the ability to believe the testimonies of others, and that is sufficient for them.
It's rare to find someone with all of these. For me, I've never personally experienced the emotional sensation of God's love, but I have a good intellectual understanding that He does love me, and that's enough for me. I have had several direct, unmistakable spiritual experiences, and that suffices. I have spiritual ups and downs like anyone else (and yes, pretty much we all do have them).
So, you say you don't believe. Ok, but do you know? If you don't, then do you believe others do? If none of these apply, did any of them ever apply? I'm thinking about this part of your story:
What on earth does your parent's faith have to do with yours? What does your younger brothers going on missions have to do with your testimony? IMO (and no, it's not humble at all), "because everyone else is doing it and expects me to" is a pretty lousy reason to believe in God. Going on a mission because it was expected of you, is not the same thing as a testimony.Theoretically, I should be a strong member of the church. I'm 27 years old and was born into the church. I served a full 2 year mission in a foreign country. My parents and brothers are members. My younger brothers are serving missions.
Doubt is good and healthy and normal. But you should seek to resolve it, or it festers and eventually can turn into something bad.
I dunno, these are just my ramblings. Do any of them help?
LM
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I'm not any more impressed with the predictive value of the Mayan calendar, than I am with any other prediction of the end of the world.You all have probably heard by now that the Mayan calendar ends in 2012. Some have said that this means the end of the world will happen in 2012. What do you think?
I personaly play the "live like tomorrow is the end" card. It's so very nice not really caring when it will actually happen.
LM
Long Time Church History Student New To Forum. Objectivity
in Introduce Yourself
Posted
Welcome RodAZ!
I'm thinking human objectivity is largely a myth. Once you get out of the realm of mathematics, everything has spin to it.LM