Andrew777

I dated a woman that was disfellowshipped from the JW church at a young age. My GF's mother didn't have any contact with her at all. Me, being an agnostic and never a JW I was able to speak with my GF's mother, I ended up going to see her mother at some point while my GF and I were living together to talk with her mother about her daughter and I possibly getting married. My GF's Mother ended up steering the conversation to try and convert me to the JW faith. Her zeal was really amazing, I'm not sure she really had any feelings left towards her daughter.

I've always seen the beliefs as more like Wesleyan Arminianism, we are saved by faith but also need to do the works that are required, we need both. We are also born in a fallen state because of Adam's transgression we are born spiritually dead and to eventual physical death we need God and the atonement to overcome this, I may be misunderstanding.

The problem is when a non-Mormon Christian won't come to accept we're Christians or we believe in the same Jesus they do there is no point to further discussion. They'll accept other Christian denominations are Christians and misguided or with doctrinal errors but they won't accept that Mormons are even part of the club. I believe the reason Mormons get it worse then others is because Anti-Mormon Christians don't just disagree with our doctrines or think we are misguided, like they do with each other. Anti-Mormons think we are purposefully deceitful by tricking people into thinking we're Christians. They believe we have surface beliefs that we tell other people and hide the deep anti-Christian doctrines that really go on in the Mormon church that they've discovered and need to proclaim to everyone. Hence the quoting of prophets taken out of context that usually goes on, or the appearance that anything any Mormon has ever said in history is doctrine. We are not just in error, Non-Christian or even Unchristian they think we are Antichrists. Some anti-Mormons believe that the prophet of the LDS church is the false prophet talked about in Revelations. I was taught as a child in the church I grew up in that in the end times there would be two seats of government, one in Jerusalem, and one in the USA. The Antichrist would rule from Jerusalem and the false prophet from the US. The two together would bring about peace on earth and claim they were from God. They would build temples where bizarre evil occult rituals would be performed and they would force all people into recognizing the false church. When I first read about Mormon beliefs about the second coming in the gospel principles book, it was like what I learned as a child was a bizzaro opposite version of it.

It was just copy and pastes from anti-Mormon websites.

There was nothing Christ like about the conversation. My mother & her husband also believe like xanmadd that when I pray to God I'm not praying to the Christian God but to Lucifer and that when I open myself to guidance by the Holy Ghost I'm actually being guided by Satan's demons. Calling God the devil and the Holy Ghost a demon is not Christian and isn't respectful whether you state it outright or pretend the Bible says it is so.

No your argument has been that we're deceived by Satan & that we either pray to Satan, to no one our to ourselves. Obviously you do not believe the bible is the infallible word of God. It's infallible up to the point where it disagrees with your denomination's beliefs, then it becomes open to re-translation and contextual debate as can be seen by the post above. Answer this you being a woman and the bible being infallible --- 1 Corinthians 33-36 As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. 1 Timothy 2:11-12 --- Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. I suppose those verses aren't taken in context and they're just meant to specific people in that time, or our translation of something isn't being properly translated? I don't believe the bible is clearly opposing Mormon doctrine, in fact they fit together quite well. This has been shown to you over and over and over again with quotes from the Bible, with reasoned responses, and with faith. Mormon doctrine clearly opposes what you believe not the Bible. I think that what you believe isn't opposed by the bible either but it isn't the fullness of truth. I came to find that Mormonism is the closest to what God wants by praying about it, as the Bible instructs. When I prayed and studied scripture I felt the holy spirit, as is promised to me by scripture. I don't think you worship the Devil or are deceived by satanic spirits, I just think the fullness of truth hasn't been revealed to you yet. You worship the same God I do and read the same bible I do.

Just because you use the Bible to insult someone's belief doesn't mean you aren't being insultive, in fact using scripture to be insultive to someone's faith I feel is even more reprehensible. You called Joseph Smith a con-man a couple days ago.

You just said ten minutes ago we don't worship the God of the Bible. I'd consider what seems to be spending upwards of 12 hours a day trying to convince Mormons they look to satanic spirits for truth and don't worship God on their own website to be a hateful thing to do.

No one is putting words in your mouth, you say we don't worship God and that we look to devilish spirits for answers, do I need to go back and quote all the slurs. You've called Joseph Smith a con-man, you've called the Heavenly Father the devil and you've called the Holy Ghost a seducing spirit that gives out the doctrine of devils. You're nothing but a troll, you don't care what we believe or even seek to understand it. You don't care what the bible teaches or what God wants. For my part I believe you worship the same God as I do, I just think you're in error, I bet besides hating Mormons you do a lot of good things.

Right here, apparently we are being deceived and devoured by Satan and tricked by a spirit that appears to be an angel of light: This was in response to a post that we pray and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Doctrines of devil? We are opening our hearts to be influenced by satanic spirits?

I'd be careful calling the Holy Spirit a spirit of the devil xanmadd: Mark 3:29-30 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

And this is what it boils down to insults...we don't worship the Heavenly Father or believe Christ is Saviour because we don't believe in the trinity -- instead we take heed to Satan, xanmadd can't be bothered to answer most of our questions since she's doing nothing but flaming the forum, and she believes that we worship the devil and are guided by demons. Our scripture is evil and was given through revelation by Satan's minions, at best it was written by a con-man. I would like to thank you for your flaming xanmadd being a new convert myself. Each time I see the same old tired arguments and hear the wonderful replies from the people here and from scripture it draws me closer to a correct understanding of doctrine and God. "Who is it you have ridiculed and blasphemed? Against whom have you raised your voice and lifted your eyes in pride? Against the Holy One of Israel!", Who is it xanmadd, you've blasphemed and ridiculed here, even going as far as to calling him the devil? Some Bible verses about asking God and getting answers. Look at the italicized parts -- the lord isn't going to be sending Satan when we ask him for answers -- James 1:5 -- If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Matthew 7:7-10 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? John 14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. John 15:7-8 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. (This one is a good one for Christian denominations that have been killing each other for hundreds of years) 1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1 John 5:14-15 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. John 16:23-24 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. Isn't that wonderful!! We're promised a fullness of joy if we ask the Father in his name! The Bible, the Book of Mormon, it all tells us to ask God. Will this matter to xanmadd? Of course not! The logic xanmadd is using -- Mormons are too decieved and too spiritually dead to realize that we're not praying to God and receiving guidance from the spirit, we're praying to Satan and receiving guidance from his devils. Some pastor that hates Mormons or website that despises us told her this. This conversation is stupid, some of us have to put up with this garbage from our own mothers & fathers.

So just belief in Jesus is what saves a person, as long as you believe exactly as you and your church does? So I assume Roman Catholics are going to burn in hell, as well as Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox, I'm assuming over 3/4 of the earth's population except for those that believe exactly as you do "God's Elect", will be burning in hell, in eternal torment? What church do you go to? You realize the bible doesn't just say that it's belief that saves you either it's belief as well as works and living a holy life-- Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:19-20). The bible also requires us to be baptized in water for the remission of sins, do you believe these things? Do your beliefs contradict what you think is the literal word of God? I believe that I worship the same God as you do, I believe as has proven here with 100 responses that my beliefs don't contradict the bible, I also have a living prophet and revelation to guide me. When I want answers from God and I'm unsure, here's what I do -- If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that waverth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (James 1:5-6) If you have unwavering faith that you will be answered your certainly will be. Mormon belief doesn't stand in direct contradiction in the belief that Jesus is the son of God and a separate personage -- And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabatchthani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Matthew 27:46), why did Jesus cry out to his God, if he is the same and one with God? And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. (Matthew 26:39), who's will is he referring to here and who is this father, is he praying to himself again or to his father in heaven? Jesus also teaches us to pray to his Father and not to him -- And he (Jesus) said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. (Luke 11:2). Jesus frequently mentions that we are sons of God as well as that he is a son of God. The bible also shows we are to be joint-heirs with Christ and children of God-- For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:14-17). I'd like you to find in the bible where it uses the word trinity and shows that God is three beings as one being, it doesn't, anywhere. Please respond to this rather then ignoring it like you do with most posts. Just posting a bunch more supposed 'problems' with mormon belief like you usually do doesn't make for good conversation, it's just trolling if you don't respond to anything.

I have a question for you xanmadd33, what makes a person saved and who is saved from hell in your belief system?

You can also go to lds.org and read the inspired version of the bible.

Have you looked at the different scriptures used by different Christian groups. The Bible of the Roman Catholics with additional scriptures is different then the bible of protestants, which is different then the eastern orthodox bible's scriptural cannon, which is different then a gnostic Christians bible, and so on and so on. A little thing called history supports the theory of apostasy in the early years, as well as a huge thing called biblical prophecy. There were Christian groups that debated over the nature of God, methods of baptism, re-baptism, how to pray, over everything, heresy abounded. The East and west disagree on the proper form of the Nicene creed and the authority of the Pope to this day. Protestants today are much like the early Christians in undermining each other and debating over every smallest doctrine. Your list of supposed contradiction is just another copy and paste from an anti-Mormon website that has been copied and pasted many times before, why not just provide the link so we can go to the site and read everything there and stop wasting everyone's time. There's even a mormon website you've had linked to (have you bothered to go read it) that refutes all these claims because so many people have copied and pasted these exact same things. BTW you can buy Joseph Smith's translation of the bible at any Mormon book store.

I spent 18 years of my life in the Church of the Nazarene, two of those years in a private Christian school. I spent every summer in bible camp, in tent meetings and learning about the Bible. My mother is married to a Nazarene minister and I helped him do his assignments when he went through Canadian Nazarene College to get ordained. I've been to more different denominations then you can probably count. Baptists, Quakers, Methodists, Pentecostals (I have to say Pentecostals made me feel the most uncomfortable), ect... I spent a year going to a Roman Catholic church with a girl I was going to marry, and the two years before becoming LDS in the Anglo-Catholic church because I liked the old feel to it and the pomp and ceremony. I've read the NIV version of the Bible over a dozen times. I've read every sermon from John Wesley and probably have heard as much from Billy Graham as is humanely possible, Billy was one of my heroes as a kid. How dare you suggest I'm not interested in the truth. I pray daily for the spirit's guidance and to have truth revealed to me. As you can see I've seeked the Lord's truth since I was a small child. Who do you think is guiding me, when I feel the power of the Holy Spirit? I know it's the Holy Spirit and when I pray I pray to our Heavenly Father just as you do. You make latter day saints out to be this group of close minded, semi-cultists, that the church begrudgingly shoots out tidbits of lies too and we all follow along like sheep with no interest in hearing counterpoints or other views. You realize there are LDS schools and universities, that LDS members have been hearing these things and debating them for about 180 years, it's not like we're all of a sudden going to see something you've copied and pasted somewhere from an anti-mormon website and say "Oh! No one has ever thought of that before in the last 180 years, I'm wrong!". There's libraries full of LDS books on theology, on the bible and biblical truths, on the book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's life. Most of us pray as the best form of guidance, we go right to the source: God. I do this because there is so much contention and misinformation in this world. We also respect the Bible, we aren't anti-bible as you seem to imply in a few posts. I love my Bible it's what guided me to the Church of Jesus Christ, I've read it a dozen times, I especially love Acts and the letters of Paul. It wasn't the book of Mormon that convinced me the LDS church was right, it was picking up my bible and going through it and seeing that the trinity isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible, seeing the prophecies about the apostasy and restoration, as well as many other things were shown to me that I hadn't beem taught before. Things I was taught in error before. It was then prayer and the other scriptures that led me to realizing that Joseph Smith was the person that restored the church. As for the 'false' prophecies, once again it's something that we've all probably seen copied and pasted a dozens of times. You can go here and read a 'Pro-Mormon' rebuttal if you're interested in the truth yourself: The Nature of Prophets and Prophecy "They will circulate falsehoods to destroy your reputation, and also will seek to take your life" --Angel Moroni to Joseph Smith (1823) Well they managed the latter and are still doing the former, it just doesn't end I suppose.

Of course it's pro-Mormon this is a Mormon website what did you expect. As for indoctrination; don't insult my intelligence, I was indoctrinated by evangelical Christians probably ones just like yourself and finally found the truth of the LDS church within the bible and the 'additional' scriptures. You pick and choose out of the bible, this is why there are thousands of denominations picking and choosing -- the LDS church takes the bible as a whole puts the concepts together then completes it all through modern day revelation. I came to the conclusions I did straight out of the bible -- that the book of Mormon and additional revelation would be needed, that baptism is needed for remission of sins, that the church needed to be restored, etc... none of the modern day revelations contradict anything in the bible. I wake up and praise God every day that I was led and I was willing enough to search so that I could find the truth of his church and not be left in the half truths I grew up to believe. I do thank the evangelicals though and my good Christian upbringing as being a stepping stone to the LDS faith and the fullness of the gospel I have received in Christ's church.

Figuring out basic LDS doctrine doesn't seem to be too hard it's all in the Gospel Principles book, as for all the details and such it seems impossible. I've had people tell me that the Heavenly Father isn't the God of the old testament but he did command Jesus to create the world. I read in this thread some believe that Jesus is the God of the entire old testament. I've had people tell me the Archangel Micheal (who apparently is Adam and the first man) had a role in creation and therefore should be considered a God on the same level as Christ. I've heard the getting your own planet thing exerted from Mormons numerous times, even going as far as making jokes about playing Golf with the wife and children on their planet. I've heard other Mormons say it's only speculation and then others say it's not true at all. I've heard all these things claimed by Mormons to be doctrine of the church, personal opinions or just guessing. It's really hard to figure out, I stick with prayer myself and reading the scriptures when I'm not sure, I really don't want some person espousing a personal opinion or false doctrine to turn myself or other people away from investigating the church, it's hard when so many claim personal opinion as doctrine. I've heard a lot of people quote prophets as support for their beliefs, but from what I understand everything prophets say isn't revelation, just the things that they've said is supposed to be taken as revelation for the church is doctrine.

I was on chat here the other day and a LDS member from Mexico was saying that he takes catholic "Idols" (images of Jesus and the Holy Virgin Mary) and smashes them then spits on them in his backyard, he said he did this in his early days as a missionary, and continues to destroy them today. He did say he quit spitting on them recently -- that's a good thing. He was quite proud of himself for desacrating images of our saviour, said he had done it so many times he couldn't count how many "idols" he'd destroyed. I've also heard LDS members in my Gospel Principles class run down Catholics in much the same manner and propagate the fantasy that Catholics pray 'to' saints and statues. They revere the statues and they ask saints to pray for them not intercede like Jesus would. Remove the beam in your own?

I was mistaken here, the general population of Mormons are just as spiteful, intolerant, bigoted, self righteous and misinformed as the evangelical Christian that posted here, it's fortunate that LDS doctrine and leaders aren't like that.

I'm just happy I've found the LDS church that I've been attending and have left the church I grew up in which is probably very similar to where JustMiss goes, seeing her talk here just reinforces that.

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