Andrew777

I still think you confuse the theology with the actions of the church members. Some churches will let you smoke and drink..but..if you break the chastity laws or never go to confession you'll be working off your sins in purgatory in pain and torment. Others it may sound like you only have to say a few words to attain salvation...but the reality is if you say those few words without meaning it and having a repentant heart, it ain't going to work, you can't trick God with words. Some churches you can lose your salvation through sinning and becoming apostate, then you'll be burning in a lake of fire for all eternity...how much less lenient can you get then that. Sure there are churches where people slack off and don't take it seriously but the same can be said for the LDS church, I saw a member one Sunday that had his headphones plugged in for the whole service, it was disgusting I wondered why he even came. There are many churches where people don't understand the doctrines at all, some churches have members that just go to get away from the kids for a few hours during Sunday School. I've seen people on TV that my stepmother said are LDS members dressed up like whores on dancing competitions. I've seen members on Sunday with so much make up on you'd think they were heading off to the pub. Yes I'm a bit of a prude I don't even wear shorts. Funny story -- when I did my interview before baptism the guy I spoke with asked me what faith tradition I came from, I told him and his response was, "We won't have to go through the commandments again then will we!", Oddly my old church has a doctrine called entire sanctification that is very close to the LDS doctrine of progression -- through living a holy life, listening to the holy spirit with Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross we can become sinless and perfect as Christ is. We can become like him.

I've been to many and I can say the exact opposite, I can remember wondering for hours as a child about the validity of my salvation. There were adult Sunday School classes at most of them, those ones at 7 in the morning when you're so tired you can barely think . I do admit most the churches I attended and respected came from the holiness tradition, if you don't know what that is those are the guys that wore the funny hats and were called puritans back in Joseph Smith's day. I also attended the Anglo-catholic church for two years, that's one where you spend a lot of your time praying that God doesn't crush you for your sins and the mass is mostly on your knees on a wooden bench. The churches I did go to where you passively sit there didn't teach that and those members that took there faith seriously would live daily in faith and were taught to do that. If you passively sat there you weren't understanding the message of the sermons. If you thought going to church once a week was all that was needed you misunderstood the theology. As for tithing I think it's not a good idea to constantly push the idea it makes a pastor look bad, like it's all about money.

This discussion began because you implied people leave the church for other denominations not because God has convicted them or because they disapprove of LDS doctrine but because they're slackers that get it easier in other churches then in the extremely moral LDS church.

No, of course they don't excommunicate people for adultery, most Christians believe excommunication is God's job not man's job. Judge not lest ye be judged and all that scriptural stuff. Some Christian churches will remove people from positions of authority if they are living in sin, such as teaching Sunday School classes. Perhaps you are unaware of the number of Christian churches in the world today. Many teach a holiness doctrine, this means you don't lose your salvation by dancing but it's one step on the road to losing your faith, backsliding and then losing your salvation. No church at all believes you have to just say something to be saved, that's an incredibly simplistic view of the theology of being saved through faith. The gospel of wealth, hmmm, two Sundays ago our bishop preached about how we should pray for and strive to be financially well off, as God wants us to be happy and blesses us for following his commandments (mostly tithing of course). As far as I know the LDS church teaches that almost all people will be saved irregardless of what they do in life, only a very few will go to outer darkness. As for churches allowing homosexuality and other apostate practices they are in the minority, and the people within those churches usually disagree with each other over it. Some of those churches have many members who are no longer Christian in positions of authority i.e. Are agnostics/atheists and don't believe in salvation or any Christian doctrines such as a number of the members of the Episcopal church. You can't say LDS believe this then point to the FLDS or the Community of Christ as examples they are in the minority, just as you can't point out other Christians as moral slackers as they are in the minority also.

This is simply untrue, just because your morality isn't judged by a bishop doesn't mean it isn't expected by God or the church you go too. Some churches believe that you can backslide and lose your salvation if you do such things as -- Dance, laugh too much, watch too much television, become engaged in to many worldly matters (i.e. financial success), wearing too much make-up, etc... Other churches heap on so much guilt that they have members that do things like fast for weeks, sleep on wooden boards, dedicate their life to the needy, remain celibate all of their lives, etc... Every Christian church I've ever been too preaches 10% or more in tithing as that command comes right out of the bible, they just don't have a man appointed by God that goes around checking to see if you pay it, it's up to God on judgment day to check if you payed your tithes. Mormons don't have a monopoly on morality.

Maybe this IS the primary reason that people leave -- study of the doctrines? It seems to be what people say they leave for. Maybe the doctrines should be taught to investigators. People join the LDS church because they like the missionaries enough to do them a favour, wow!

What does this mean?

People in Old Testament times used to practice polygamy too, they worshiped the same God as we do. Nonetheless, polygamy isn't comparable to the types of atrocities Roman Catholics have committed throughout history, not just in Martin Luther's time. The Roman Catholic church was created by a council of men not Christ.

This is true most Christians teach that you have a change of heart and become a better person, others teach that being a Christian requires living a holy life otherwise you'll lose your salvation. Roman Catholics who I see bashed a lot don't think that you can just go out and sin and be saved by doing a few prayers, if you commit a mortal sin you lose your salvation if you don't make penance, the feeling of repentance and remorse is more important then the prayers and penance given by the priest. Many Christians teach that if you repent God knows your heart and if you're just trying to 'trick' him by pretending to be repentant and not wanting to change then you aren't going to be forgiven. God isn't a fool. My mother changed her life around when she was born again. Sure there are slackers that only go to church on Easter and Christmas, I'm sure there are these types in the LDS church also. As for the temple recommend, are there not people who lie during the interview process and get a recommend therefore being able to get a recommend and still hold on to there sin?

Yes congrats Holly on following the way that God has led you, I can certainly see where you're coming from over some doctrines.

Thanks for your answers and I'm glad to see we're in agreement -- the Godhead is three distinct persons in union of purpose. I think you have a much higher view of the majority of Christians and unity then the reality of the situation. I think most Christians out there believe they are right and the rest are damned (We're including Roman Catholics here). My mother's husband tries to get all the churches together in just her small town to do interfaith ministry and it's almost impossible. It isn't just tiny doctrinal differences either it's huge and major social, religious and liturgical differences. I don't find eternal punishment in the way that hell is described to be a just punishment for anyone at all. The prayer question -- the protestant church I grew up in taught me to pray in the exact same way I was taught how to pray in the LDS church.

Yes it's gathered first hand, you can buy plenty of books that show the questions asked in such polls, you can request first hand information from most of these people that take the polls and find out what questions are asked. You can also by books that do in depth study of such things, my favourite books on such a subject are written by Christina Hoff Summers. Obviously you haven't been involved in many questionares. What's wrong with the question, have you ever been sexually assaulted? It's a simple question that can be answered yes or no. The questions you list above are slanted, most people men or women, would be able to answer yes to one of those questions. I can certainly answer yes to at least one of those three questions. Consider the violent crime rate including convicted murderers, aggravated assaults, robberies and sexual assaults in Detroit is 2.4% The extremely inflated figure of 1 in 4 women or 25% came from a study done by Mary Koss, instead of taking an answer of yes to the question "Have you every been raped?" (this question was asked) as being the indicator that a woman has been sexually assaulted she took an answer of yes to a variety of questions as being a positive to victimization. The questions asked were similiar questions to the ones you've listed and I've listed above. It's a first hand fact that 73% of the women in the study that Mary Koss considered to have been assaulted answered no when asked if they had ever been sexually assaulted, 42% of the women Mary Koss reported as being victimized continued to have relations with their 'assailants'.

Just as an example of what's asked in these poles -- women are never asked if they have been sexually assaulted, instead questions such as "Have you ever had a sexual encounter then regretted it after or the next morning?", "Have you ever felt pressured into having a sexual encounter?" or "Have you ever had a sexual encounter while intoxicated?" if you answer yes to these questions you are considered to have been abused...this is how they come up with vastly inflated numbers. What's wrong with just asking outright? That's right you can't ask outright or you won't get the answer you want. We won't go into the number of false accusations that are thrown about either and the number of men who were guilty until proven innocent just by the word of a woman. If there is any conspiracy it's a conspiracy of media pundits making money out of spreading fear and a conspiracy of people that want to destroy the role of fatherhood and any smidgen of respect for masculinity North American society has left.

Maybe some people do honestly ask and receive an answer but then warp and twist that message out of pride or want for personal power, just a thought.

Denying the resurrection is way more heretical then believing in the trinity for sure! Think it would be certain Anglicans he's thinking about, maybe the United Church, I really can't think of a lot of them that do. #13) Why do many Christians believe that there denomination is the only one that will save them from an eternal hell, when it's said in scriptures that there are many rooms in the Father's mansion? #14) How is the belief that the majority of the Earth's population is going to suffer in an eternal hell reconciled with a belief in a loving God? #15) Who is it Jesus prays too through out the Gospel when he prays to his Father if he is God himself? #16) Why does Jesus teach us to also pray to the Father and not to him? #17) Why are we told by many of the apostles to pray to the Father in Jesus' name if Jesus is the same God, why is he needed as in intermediary or high priest if they are one and the same? #18) If the Bible is the innerant word of God and all that is needed why does every denomination ignore biblical commands that are not in their doctrine and beliefs?

There are parts of the bible that are used to show a prediction of a latter day prophet and that early Christians believed an apostasy would come and a restoration would be needed. It is possible some Christians including the apostles saw the apostasy on it's way.

That 25% figure isn't the full truth either, men aren't these horrible beasts that the media makes us out to be, there are a very small percentage of men who are violent psychopaths and sex abusers.

I'm suggesting ruining people's lives for money in such a disgusting manner is satanic. There's a number of books written out there about these people and the pain and horror they caused their victims.

There are thousands of victims of recovered memory syndrome, where satanic theraptists have targeted women to have memories that never existed, hundreds of these therapists have been sued by their victims. Their patients & the families of the patients, have suffered unbearable pain and accusations because of these people, they usually target the father in the family. This type of thing makes it harder for real victims of abuse to come forward, and for real therapists to offer help.

I believe that if we ask God with faith in Jesus' name we won't be misled, this is stated many times in the bible. I can only explain from my experience. When I was a child God spoke to me, but he only spoke to what I could understand, I learned a lot of things about him. Two years ago when I prayed, I never would have accepted LDS doctrines if God revealed them, so instead I was urged to go to a church where I learned about priests and sacredness. Finally I was led to the LDS church. It was a progression. Those who do evil I believe aren't asking in faith in Jesus' name.

We believe in the same God you do we just have a different understanding. Our understandings will never be reconciled as they are too far apart.

There's a great book called "Are Mormons Christians?" by Stephen E. Robinson that can answer a lot of the questions you posted, probably better then anyone here could.

Me too ex I was pretty sure when I was 12 that the faith I raised in was true, it wasn't until later that I began to have doubts. I had gone to a number of places too and 'believed' before I came to the Church of Jesus Christ.

It's really not much different then the pope, but I suppose most the people that think the LDS church is a cult probably think not much more of Roman Catholics.

If you look at the full context in the bible it can be clearly seen that God has both a spirit and a body. It's not either/or, that is if you want to look at the entire Bible and not just certain verses. We are made in his image as both physical and spiritual beings. As for the kingdoms, they're not mentioned in detail in the Bible. There is about as much biblical reference to the different kingdoms as there is for your belief in the trinity, i.e. practically none. Fortunately we have modern day prophets to reveal such information for us, as well as the ability we all have to ask God himself.