DigitalShadow

Amazon.com: Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment: Phil Zuckerman: Books

How many religions are free from corruption? How many "holy wars" have been waged throughout history? Yes, governments can be abused and corrupted just like any other institution, including religions, what is the point? Do religions not also keep people in line with rewards and fear of punishment? Just because someone decides they want a happy afterlife doesn't mean they are any more reformed than someone who decides they don't want to go to jail again.

I read this as being defensive: Unfortunately over the internet it is incredibly hard to tell intent without tone of voice, facial expression or gestures, so it was probably just a misunderstanding.

What I'm saying is that atheism doesn't lead to crimes or unrest any more than belief in God does. It is a part of human nature and generally unchanged with religious beliefs. The reason I brought up Scandinavia is that many people (probably even some here) believe that without religion society would completely fall apart and I recently found out that there is a very good example that says that it is not the case. I think that the point of the book is not to attribute or condemn, but to challenge some of the "conventional wisdom" about society's relationship with religion. I'll probably end up buying the book at some point, you can borrow it when I'm done if you want :)

It is the same reason you suddenly got so defensive about your conservatism even though I didn't even mention it. Sometimes it is just a natural reaction when you are accustomed to people attacking you for something.

Yeah, I reread your post and was going to go back and change mine but I figured it was probably too late. I haven't read the book yet either, but I was thinking about buying it. To me, what is interesting is not the percentages of atheists or Christians or Mormons, but the way religion is culturally thought of and quite honestly until I read that article a few days ago I had no clue a place like that even exists.

I never claimed atheism is the only way for a society to thrive, just that it is possible for an atheist society (willing atheism, not forced) to thrive. The article was never meant to "convince" you of anything, it was merely food for thought. I don't fully agree with the politics of the country either, but it is interesting none the less. Also, while 20,000 may sound like a big number keep in mind that it is only 0.13% of the population of those two countries. I don't see how that would be significant when talking about the majority of society there.

I'm not just talking about where specifically either of us grew up, I'm talking about the culture of this country in general. It has nothing to do with whether your perspective is true or false. All I'm saying is that if you grew up in somewhere like Scandinavia, you could very well be just as happy and thankful for your world view and IMHO the only reason you can't imagine it now is because of the culture here. I never said that. I do think that the environment around you can shape the way that you think, especially about religion, but of course you are still you and there is no telling exactly how external influences will change your outlook on things.

I can tell that you're not being contentious and I don't mind you asking at all. Let me ask you a question first though. Would you (or most people here) not feel defensive if someone asked "How can you possibly be happy and lead a good life if you are a Mormon?" I think it is a natural reaction when people claim that your world view is not only false, but unhealthy and impossible to be happy with. I try not to get too defensive because I know it can lead to a lot of contention, but I do still want people to at least understand my viewpoint, and hopefully even respect it as I respect their viewpoint.

I know you disagree, but IMHO that is because you were raised in a society that teaches us that we need religion to satisfy us. That is why governments and sets of laws emerged. I would also like to point out that that ever present ability to justify ourselves is just as present whether you believe in a religion or not... how many people have been killed in God's name? (ironically a God that stated "though shalt not kill.")

And what if you're wrong and are going to be sent to some other religion's Hell? As you say, eternity is a long time. No matter what religious beliefs you hold, the majority of the world disagrees with you. Did you know there is even an area of the world that is mostly atheist? They seem to do quite well too. Not that I'd move there, but it is interesting from a sociological perspective and examining the question of whether religion is needed for a society to function and even thrive. Check it out.

That all depends on your outlook, my friend. I assume that this mortal life is the only shot at existance we have, our only chance to feel or experience anything and so I savor every minute of it and make the most of my time here. I treat other people nicely because that is how I would want to be treated, no dogma or eternal reward necessary :) Don't get me wrong, I've seen various religions help many people get their lives together and I am truly happy for them, but it is incorrect to assume that everyone needs religion to lead a good, fullfilling and happy life.

If I refuse to vote for a Mormon based solely on the fact that they are a Mormon it does that mean I dislike Mormons? No, but I would say it gives a strong indication. Also, as I said before, that is not the only poll in the article I linked. Out of curiousity, what is it that you think atheism does to people?

Here is my opinion of what is going on based on personal experience: Before the internet became such a large part of people's lives, atheists were often more isolated, sometimes the only members of their family that feel that way and it was not easy to find other people who they can relate to because when you tell someone you are an atheist you will sometimes meet immediate hostility and usually at least subtle disdain. Now that technology allows us to communicate with all kinds of people all over the world easier than you can communicate with your next door neighbor, atheists can connect and form communities like never before. There is definitely a growing atheist subculture in this country, but to call it popular or fashionable is a bit much in my opinion. It's not as if the atheist population is growing incredibly quickly, but atheists are now more comfortable with being who they are rather than hiding their lack of belief for fear of mobs lynching them.

I have never had the choice in an election (presidential or otherwise) to vote for someone who shares my religious view and frankly think it is far less relevant (not completely irrelevant) than other qualities a candidate could have. I don't think that people who said they would not vote for an otherwise well qualified atheist were being bigoted. The reason I brought it up was to demonstrate the dislike and to a large extent distrust of atheists in this country. There are other polls in the article I link that demonstrate this as well.

I have never felt unwelcome here and in general I agree that most LDS memers are generally very friendly and welcoming. The only time that I mentioned "hate" was agreeing with the general tendency of societies to "hate" groups of minorities. This has been seen throughout history and I doubt it will be changing anytime soon. People in general are quick to find a scapegoat to blame all their problems on and that can quickly turn to blind hate which is passed on to children. I am well aware that simply because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean they HATE, but I am also aware that there are some people who truly do HATE. I don't think anyone on this thread or even this forum in my recent memory has really expressed hate and I am not quick to accuse people of it, but it is certainly out there.

Some minorities are hated more than others, but in general, sadly you are right.

Half the world thinks our country in general is the devil. If the ultimate test in this life is learning to coexist, the vast majority of people are failing miserably. I know that Mormons face discrimination and prejudice and I am not trying to belittle your trials, but I really think you underestimate the dislike in this country for atheists. Here are some interesting statistics from Gallup Polls. These are the percentages of people who would refuse to vote for "a generally well-qualified person for president" who had one of these characteristics: Catholic: 4% Black: 5% Jewish: 6% Baptist: 6% Woman: 8% Mormon: 17% Muslim: 38% Gay: 37% Atheist: 48% Source: Gallup Polls & Other Surveys on American Attitudes Towards Atheists - Over 40 Years of Research Show Atheists Are Despised, Distrusted The rest of the article is an interesting read as well.

That really depends on where you live. Do you honestly think Mormons in Utah take as much or more flack for their religious beliefs than atheists in Utah? Also, I wasn't directing that question at most LDS people, I was directing it at someone who questioned my parental ability based solely on my lack of religious belief (something which I've gotten quite a bit of in Utah, so forgive me if it is a sensitive topic). My point was that there are many other religious views out there and people hold them for a variety of reasons and that judging people based solely on their religion is wrong and if you don't like people making assumptions about you just because you're a Mormon, you shouldn't make assumptions about people just because they're not Mormon.

Yay! At least someone here likes me

There, I put in your second vote as mine :)

I don't doubt that your life is better because of your belief and that you have personally experienced undeniable miracles confirming your belief, but I also don't doubt that other people have also had undeniable miracles supporting their own differing belief. That is why I say that religion is a personal choice because your personal experiences are the only things that can "prove" a religion to you and those experiences are different for different people.

Interesting, I don't think I've ever heard it put like that before. Just to make sure I understand your viewpoint, you believe that evolution could have created all the species on the earth, but didn't?

If the statistics for depression in utah are already high, but Mormons don't contribute to that and make up more than half the population of Utah, the percentage of depressed non-Mormons in Utah must be rediculously high to make those statistics consistent. So then the question becomes, what is it about the LDS lifestyle and culture that is so depressing to everyone around them? Edit: In case anyone didn't notice, the tone for this was meant to be jokingly. I am a non-member living in Utah and I don't find anything particularly depressing about the lifestyle and culture here... maybe a bit frustrating sometimes though

Pick the statement that best represents your viewpoint regarding evolution and if you would like post on why you feel that way. I am curious what most people (especially LDS) think about evolution and why. Comments and questions are also welcome. Edit: I feel like an idiot, I didn't realize the forum automatically put Poll: in front of the title if there is a poll so now the title looks stupid when browsing